Logs on 2023-04-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:40:51 | <nitrix> | Hello. This is a bit coming from the left field, but knowing the strong knowledge about reactive programming and logic systems in the community, I'll try to throw a shot in the dark, we'll see if I'm lucky. |
| 00:41:32 | <nitrix> | I'm trying to build a "production system" which operates with a set of "facts" and "rules". The rules reactively match against facts to create yet more facts. The whole thing is forward-chained I believe. What I'd like to be able to do is to prove that the format I chose for my rules can express all computations: GIVEN x WHEN y THEN z; |
| 00:42:00 | <nitrix> | GIVEN matches facts but does not consume them. WHEN matches facts and consumes them. THEN creates new facts. |
| 00:42:35 | <nitrix> | This seems awefully lambda / SKI-combinator-like to me. Any tips in any direction would help :3 |
| 00:44:58 | <ski> | this sounds like ##prolog could also possibly give suggestions. i can already see similarities between CHR (Constraint Handling Rules), and what you're asking about |
| 00:46:45 | <monochrom> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule-based_system and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system |
| 00:46:46 | <nitrix> | Mhm. That was going to be my next stop :) |
| 00:47:21 | <nitrix> | Hopefully Anniepoo is there or triska :P |
| 00:48:04 | <ski> | Anniepoo has been there a long time in the past, but seems to have been gone for some time |
| 00:48:53 | <ski> | (may perhaps be on a discord, you could try asking) |
| 00:50:04 | <ski> | e.g. <https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=chr>,<http://www.informatik.uni-ulm.de/pm/fileadmin/pm/home/fruehwirth/constraint-handling-rules-book.html> might be helpful, for CHR |
| 00:56:56 | <ski> | specifically your `GIVEN x WHEN y THEN Z;' corresponds to the "simpagation" (simplfication&propagation) type of CHR rule, which would look like `x \ y <=> z.'. logically, this amounts to `x => (y <=> z)'. the constraint `y' is equivalent to the constraint `z' so we may replace `y' with `z' (without losing information). but this only holds under the condition of `z', so the replacement only holds when the |
| 00:57:02 | <ski> | constraint `x' holds (and `x' is not removed). you can also add additional (non-constraint) conditions (written in the host language, here Prolog) for the rule, like `x \ y <=> z :- Blah.' |
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| 01:37:57 | <viole> | Hi. Last time I used haskell for anything serious was back in ghc 7.4. Just fired up ghci 8.8.4, tried to define a Monoid V and... oh... now requires Semigroup.. and looks like this is what I actually need so, fine, I define it no problem. Now, when I try to type V 1 <> V 2, the prompt returns V 1 <> V 2 :: V, instead of the actual result. What's going on here? |
| 01:38:28 | <c_wraith> | viole: that sounds like you're asking it for the type |
| 01:38:58 | <viole> | not really. I then did a partial case V 1 <> V 2 of V x -> x and it does what I want |
| 01:39:10 | <viole> | let me upload a screenshot |
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| 01:42:15 | <Axman6> | yeah that does not sound like the behaviour of ghci, something must be wrong |
| 01:42:23 | <Axman6> | > Sum 1 <> Sum 2 |
| 01:42:25 | <lambdabot> | Sum {getSum = 3} |
| 01:42:38 | <c_wraith> | I mean, it's exactly the behavior when you put :t in front of an expression... |
| 01:42:45 | <Axman6> | yeah |
| 01:43:20 | <viole> | f*** me. This is because I didn't derive Show |
| 01:43:30 | <viole> | mistery solved |
| 01:43:35 | <viole> | if Show is missing, it'll do this |
| 01:43:39 | <Axman6> | TIL about lens' Ixed instance for functions, how handy! |
| 01:43:41 | <c_wraith> | in what environment? ghc just gives an error message... |
| 01:43:47 | <c_wraith> | err, ghci |
| 01:43:54 | <Axman6> | viole: huh, I feel like I've never seen that happen |
| 01:44:28 | <c_wraith> | I'm testing with ghci 8.8.4, and get • No instance for (Show Foo) arising from a use of ‘print’ |
| 01:44:30 | <viole> | c_wraith: haskell-mode interaction (version... let me check), emacs 27.1 |
| 01:44:45 | <Axman6> | Also worth noting that ghc 8.8 is quite old now - if you installed it using your OS's package manager, you might want to consider removing it and using ghcup to manage the installation of all the tools you'll need |
| 01:44:56 | <c_wraith> | oh. this is what you get for integrating with editors. :P |
| 01:45:21 | <Axman6> | nice feature though |
| 01:45:29 | <viole> | c_wraith: wasn't like this back then, but it's not like it's bad, just unexpected and did throw me for a loop |
| 01:45:48 | <Axman6> | US too! |
| 01:47:05 | <viole> | anyway, if you still want to see the screenshot, I'll paste it. I listen to suggestions, as most image pastebin sites I checked out so far seem quite trashy and full of ads |
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| 01:49:29 | <Axman6> | yeah probably not worth it. |
| 01:50:08 | <Axman6> | ghcup is worth looking at though, lets you easily manage ghc version through a nice tui, and also tools like cabal, stack and haskell lanuage server |
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| 01:50:37 | <viole> | so long is not a pain in the ass to get to work in nixos, I'm all for trying it out... later... |
| 01:50:57 | <viole> | s/to get to/to get it to/ |
| 01:52:58 | <Axman6> | I'd have to defer to others as to its use on nixos, it's got it's own options. General advice is that OS package managers aren't a good choice for installing ghc, but nixos is likely to be an exception |
| 01:54:23 | <viole> | nixos both gives me pain, lots of it, and also is a blessing. When managing multiple systems, it's an absolute blessing to simply have a shared mountpoint with definitions and simply import whatever is needed for the current system/machine |
| 01:55:17 | <c_wraith> | There is a community working hard to make nix work for haskell. But it's always seemed like a tremendous pain to me if I want to manage it myself. |
| 01:55:18 | <viole> | but many other things are... ugh! hours of struggle to do simple stuff that'd be strightaway in any other distro |
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| 02:21:03 | <Axman6> | > "A 1 a 2 a 1 2 3 4 let's go!" ^.. worded . _Show :: [Int] |
| 02:21:05 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,1,2,3,4] |
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| 03:09:46 | <Nosrep> | anyone noticed the comments on realworldhaskell are messed up? |
| 03:09:58 | <Nosrep> | they're always for a completely different section if there even are any |
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| 03:14:27 | <Nosrep> | well it seems to be only some this one looks normal enoughg |
| 03:14:35 | <Nosrep> | a decent fraction |
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| 06:19:44 | <redmp> | do any of the common command-line parsing libraries also facilitate pretty-printing back to cli args? |
| 06:20:27 | <redmp> | i've poked around the source of optparse-generic and optparse-applicative, and the pretty-printing facilities seem buried deep and inaccessibly inside the help-text printers |
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| 06:31:32 | <dsal> | Do you mean that you want it to print out the commandline arguments it received? |
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| 06:43:00 | <redmp> | dsal: yes, or any way to go from an instance of a datatype back to the commandline string(s).. invert the parsing |
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| 06:46:25 | <hopelessness[m]> | that depends on the datatype and how it encapsulates the data |
| 06:47:03 | <redmp> | I suppose so, but in many cases it's straightforward |
| 06:47:24 | <hopelessness[m]> | yeah, but it really depends on how it's structured |
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| 07:07:43 | <redmp> | I guess i'm only really concerned with the use case where the parser is autogenerated, as in the example of optparse-generic and similar |
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| 07:10:08 | <redmp> | iirc there are several libraries that work in that way, which are more or less automatic parsers |
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| 15:51:22 | <random-jellyfish> | How do general purpose CPUs perform integer multiplication? With a combinatorial circuit or a sequential shift-add circuit? |
| 15:51:24 | <aavogt[m]> | I don't think it exists. But it should be pretty straightforward to use -XGenerics or the Data instance (whatever the parser uses) to traverse the record with access to field labels as String. If you're lucky the parser will already accept whatever show produces |
| 16:00:15 | gehmehgeh | is now known as gmg |
| 16:01:31 | <darkling> | random-jellyfish: There's a bunch of different ways. The 8086 used shift/add: http://www.righto.com/2023/03/8086-multiplication-microcode.html |
| 16:01:36 | <darkling> | (As I think did the ARM) |
| 16:01:42 | <darkling> | early ARM, that is. |
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| 16:02:22 | <darkling> | There's also a combinatorial circuit that's a lot more efficient, but uses loads of gates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadda_multiplier |
| 16:02:39 | <darkling> | I think there's some variants that use lookup tables as well. |
| 16:06:09 | <random-jellyfish> | darkling thanks |
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| 16:21:42 | <[exa]> | random-jellyfish: btw there's a pretty continuous spectrum of the multiplier configurations that can be generated between both extremes; trading off circuit depth for circuit area. There are also physical constraints in place (3D path lengths). AFAIK actual CPUs use whatever arithmetical circuits that are produced by automated optimizers for a precise given timing, area and energy constraints |
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| 16:24:00 | <[exa]> | you can see it better on adders I guess; most of the timing improvements there are speculatively executing both versions of one branch so that the result is ready after the branch decision is known. With multipliers it's the "same", just on appropriate steroids. |
| 16:25:47 | <[exa]> | s/after/at the same time when/ |
| 16:26:24 | <random-jellyfish> | interesting |
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| 16:28:06 | <random-jellyfish> | I wonder if these optimizers produce only combinatorial logic or also sequential one for shift and add algorithms |
| 16:29:02 | <[exa]> | sequential logic as with instructions that work in multiple cycles/ |
| 16:29:03 | <[exa]> | ? |
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| 16:30:15 | <random-jellyfish> | no, as with flip-flops and shifters and adders that do one shift-add per clock cycle and save the result in the flip flops for the next iteration |
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| 16:33:33 | <random-jellyfish> | I think that would take the smallest area but it would require a number of clock cycles proportional with the bit width of the operands to get the final result |
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| 16:48:25 | <monochrom> | combinatorial = purely functional; sequential = with mutable state :) |
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| 16:50:57 | <monochrom> | But it is under the assumption that the purely functional side bans all versions of recursion. |
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| 16:51:32 | <monochrom> | And ironically mutable state in digital circuits is obtained from recursion. This can get into deep philosophy. |
| 16:58:14 | <[exa]> | Ranhir: ah with flipflops, yeah you can do that, it's still combinatorial (you only get an extra constraint that the layers of your combinatorial circuit have to be the same) |
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| 16:58:54 | <[exa]> | oh sorry wrong highlight |
| 16:59:14 | <[exa]> | random-jellyfish: ah you left for a moment :] |
| 17:01:13 | <random-jellyfish> | [exa] yeah but I read the saved log |
| 17:02:09 | <[exa]> | btw I'm not aware of any systematic approach that would be able to "nicely split" the networks into sensible layers like this, reusing the same wires for the next layer |
| 17:02:19 | <[exa]> | kinda stinks like polyhedral optimization |
| 17:07:14 | <random-jellyfish> | monochrom yeah it's mutual recursion between 2 or more gates, but yeah it's still recursion |
| 17:08:51 | <random-jellyfish> | purely functional programming is suspiciously similar to hardware design |
| 17:10:02 | <random-jellyfish> | I think it would fit formal verification of digital circuits like a glove |
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| 17:10:07 | <random-jellyfish> | if it hasn't already... |
| 17:10:35 | <[exa]> | random-jellyfish: you're invited to study some depths of verilog |
| 17:10:35 | <geekosaur> | have you looked at clash or copilot? |
| 17:11:33 | <[exa]> | oh wow clash looks cool |
| 17:11:38 | <random-jellyfish> | I had a look at clash...doesn't it convert haskell to sythesizable verilog? |
| 17:12:28 | <geekosaur> | it's an EDSL that can among other things produce verilog |
| 17:15:03 | <hammond> | does network.http support https? |
| 17:15:44 | <geekosaur> | and the main reason you'd do that is that there's a lot of hardware design tooling that requires verilog |
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| 17:23:21 | <random-jellyfish> | does clash do simulation too? |
| 17:23:40 | <random-jellyfish> | or just code conversion? |
| 17:25:57 | <ski> | monochrom : although (e.g.) Lava (implemented as an EDSL in Haskell) allowed recursion in the specification of circuits (e.g. Batcher's bitonic merger, with "butterfly circuits"). it's just that that recursion is "compile-time", not "run-time" |
| 17:26:28 | <geekosaur> | I don't believe it does simulation, but iirc the code it generates is correct by construction (for example it uses types to ensure you don't wire together the wrong things) |
| 17:27:24 | <geekosaur> | oh right, I knew I was forgetting one. |
| 17:27:27 | <ski> | (Mary Sheeran and John Hughes has some papers, i believe) |
| 17:27:29 | <geekosaur> | (lava) |
| 17:29:36 | <geekosaur> | hammond, iirc not. and https is kinda hard to get portably 😞 |
| 17:30:32 | <geekosaur> | well, there's at least one implementation, but it's pure haskell and not verified so many people don't quite trust it |
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| 17:31:48 | <hammond> | geekosaur: that kinda locks u off from 99% of the internet. |
| 17:32:20 | <hammond> | im trying to install http.conduit or http.client see if they work |
| 17:32:24 | <geekosaur> | yes, I'm quite aware |
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| 17:33:57 | <hammond> | im running into 1 million errors with cabal though . i did get http to work fine. |
| 17:34:29 | <ski> | <[exa]> Ranhir: ah with flipflops, yeah you can do that, it's still combinatorial (you only get an extra constraint that the layers of your combinatorial circuit have to be the same) |
| 17:34:33 | <ski> | random-jellyfish : fwiw ^ |
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| 18:22:37 | <heinz9> | can monads do all what instances can do? |
| 18:23:09 | <Rembane> | heinz9: What a monad can do is decided by its instance. |
| 18:23:22 | <Rembane> | heinz9: Is there a more specific question behind your general question? |
| 18:23:23 | <heinz9> | so a monad is an instance? |
| 18:23:34 | <Rembane> | No, there are instances of monads though. |
| 18:23:36 | <heinz9> | yes, it goes into math |
| 18:24:13 | <heinz9> | is there any math structure, that monads can simulate? as numbers, angles or instances |
| 18:24:54 | <Rembane> | Yes, they are called monads. :) |
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| 18:25:32 | <Rembane> | It's infamously a monoid in the category of endofunctors. |
| 18:25:41 | <Rembane> | But I don't think that's what you're after. |
| 18:26:05 | <Rembane> | Monads can be used to model a computation that can go wrong. |
| 18:26:16 | <Rembane> | Or a computation that can give zero to many answers. |
| 18:26:22 | <Rembane> | ...aka non-determinism. |
| 18:27:46 | <monochrom> | Perhaps define "what instances can do". |
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| 18:28:59 | <monochrom> | IOW I strongly believe no one is on the same page about what the question means. |
| 18:30:13 | <Rembane> | Perhaps we can have a great melee about it? |
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| 18:35:12 | <monochrom> | I always lose. |
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| 19:41:57 | <ski> | heinz9 : what does "instance" mean in your mind ? |
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| 20:35:08 | <maralorn> | If I have during runtime two Nothing :: Maybe Int will GHC automatically have them at the same memory address? |
| 20:37:12 | <jade[m]> | I'm not sure it's true for all cases, but generally, constant constructors will refer to the same memory location |
| 20:37:46 | <geekosaur> | I think all `Nothing`s will be at the same address |
| 20:38:49 | <jade[m]> | https://youtu.be/I4lnCG18TaY |
| 20:39:18 | <jade[m]> | This was a great eye-opener for me originally, when it came to sharing, thunks and evaluation and such |
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| 20:52:22 | <ujjwalgupta[m]> | I am trying to profile my project in haskell, but in the profile file (.prof) I am seeing the order in which the function stack is getting printed seems a little jumbled up.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/3b1df4d8db14ce994d3d09fa682b4316d1faa35e>) |
| 20:55:10 | <L29Ah> | ujjwalgupta[m]: apparently it's because log evaluates your database call due to lazy evaluation |
| 20:57:01 | <jade[m]> | L29Ah: hm, I didn't know it worked like that |
| 20:57:36 | <jade[m]> | my guess would have been that it had to do with functional logging and it being encapsulated inside a monad which carries out the computation |
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| 21:11:49 | <monochrom> | Yes all Nothings are at the same address. |
| 21:12:05 | <monochrom> | And shared by all types, too. |
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| 21:15:11 | <hpc> | now that i think about it... is it the same address for all nullary constructors? (or at least, the ones with index 0) |
| 21:15:26 | <int-e> | it's not |
| 21:15:29 | <hpc> | like, is Nothing also the same address as False (and True the same address as EQ) |
| 21:15:32 | <hpc> | ah |
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| 21:15:48 | <jade[m]> | no |
| 21:15:51 | <monochrom> | [] has a different address from Nothing. |
| 21:15:59 | <hpc> | it seems like they could be |
| 21:16:16 | <jade[m]> | pattern matching would break |
| 21:16:26 | <jade[m]> | wait no, it wouldn't |
| 21:16:36 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 21:16:37 | <jade[m]> | yeah im not sure |
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| 21:16:53 | <monochrom> | Perhaps too much work to make them the same. :) |
| 21:17:25 | <jade[m]> | not like it makes a difference |
| 21:17:29 | <int-e> | jade[m]: pattern matching means that the number of constructors of the data type is relevant too |
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| 21:21:19 | <monochrom> | If "data X = MkX" gets its own address for MkX, then the compiler does not need to treat it really differently from all other ADT declarations. |
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| 21:32:31 | <int-e> | Hmm, no, the number of constructors doesn't actually matter; the code inspects the info table to figure out a constructor index. I thought there was a pattern match design that passed continuations (one for each constructor) to an entered closure... (and maybe there was, but it's not how things work now) |
| 21:33:50 | <int-e> | (and there's also pointer tagging to complicate the story) |
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| 21:40:34 | <monochrom> | Pointer tagging is carefully kept consistent with whatever the info table says, so as a first-order approximation you can ignore pointer tagging. |
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| 21:40:53 | <monochrom> | But as a second-order approximation you can ignore the info table instead. >:) |
| 21:41:08 | <monochrom> | It is why this works: |
| 21:41:14 | <monochrom> | @quote monochrom unsafeCoerce |
| 21:41:14 | <lambdabot> | monochrom says: isTrue = (unsafeCoerce :: Either a b -> Bool) . (unsafeCoerce :: Maybe c -> Either a b) . (unsafeCoerce :: Bool -> Maybe c) |
| 21:44:27 | <int-e> | monochrom: you can't do that if you do what I did... look at -ddump-asm output. |
| 21:45:32 | <int-e> | (It turns out that if you pattern match on one of the first 7 (3 on 32 bits) constructors, the info table is never consulted.) |
| 21:45:59 | <int-e> | err |
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| 21:46:14 | <int-e> | Those numbers should be 6 and 2, respectively. |
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| 21:47:12 | <int-e> | (0 is for unevaluated/unknown values; 7 (or 3) is catch-all for all the remaining constructors if there are more than 7 (3) of them.) |
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| 21:58:24 | <maralorn> | Wait, that means Type are more performanent if there are less then eight constructors? |
| 21:58:42 | <maralorn> | Or they are more performanent for the first eight constructors? |
| 22:00:36 | <maralorn> | Is there a way to get the size of the transitive closure of a value? |
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| 22:01:36 | <maralorn> | I mean so to say the life memory if only that value were a gcroot. |
| 22:01:38 | <geekosaur> | more performant for the constructors that can be tagged; it has to go to the info table for the others |
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| 22:06:33 | <maralorn> | So they don’t have a more compact representation in memory, just lookups are a bit quicker? |
| 22:06:46 | <geekosaur> | yes |
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| 22:09:14 | <geekosaur> | (gc still needs the info table) |
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| 22:34:20 | <maralorn> | Reading: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3254758/memory-footprint-of-haskell-data-types Why do unary datatypes need a header? |
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| 22:34:54 | <maralorn> | I understand it if there are multiple constructors. |
| 22:40:34 | <c_wraith> | maralorn: so the GC knows which fields are pointers it needs to traverse |
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| 22:41:32 | <maralorn> | Ah, I see. |
| 22:41:42 | <c_wraith> | (and for that matter, how many fields the constructor has) |
| 22:43:04 | <geekosaur> | that's why I said gc needs the info table even with pointer tagging |
| 22:43:25 | <geekosaur> | size and pointer bitmap, at minimum |
| 22:44:31 | <maralorn> | Yea |
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| 22:47:22 | <geekosaur> | (and I've just realized that bitmap is likely why tuple size is capped at 63) |
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| 22:48:12 | <c_wraith> | I've seen some code using records with over 100 fields. GHC must have a different representation at some point... |
| 22:48:53 | <geekosaur> | or the bitmap is stored in an Array# or similar, I guess |
| 22:49:26 | <geekosaur> | but tuples are still a bit "special" |
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| 23:18:52 | <maralorn> | Still a bit confused. I am inspecting the heap of my program combined with print debugging what I think is the state. If I calculate correctly I have a very clear understanding how many constructors of my types appear and they all make sense. Including the number of texts. But then ARR_WORDS is roughly to big by a factor 10. |
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| 23:19:26 | <maralorn> | I suspect that most of ARR_WORDS are Texts, because when I switch from text 2.0 to 1.x the size of ARR_WORDS doubles. |
| 23:19:46 | <maralorn> | Also I don’t see any bytestring constructors or similar on the heap. |
| 23:21:53 | <geekosaur> | right, ByteString is allocated from pinned memory instead of the heap |
| 23:22:21 | <maralorn> | But with 15k Texts using 23M (with utf-16 everything ascii) that gives me an average Text length of 750 characters, but my texts are on average less than 32 characters. |
| 23:22:55 | <geekosaur> | that I don't know |
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| 23:23:42 | <maralorn> | geekosaur: So memory used by bytestring does not appear in the eventlog profile? |
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| 23:25:22 | <geekosaur> | I don't know offhand how pinned memory shows up in the eventlog, I just know it won't show as heap memory |
| 23:25:29 | <maralorn> | Anyway by size of the constructors I have only about 30 bytestrings alive at any time. |
| 23:25:51 | <geekosaur> | other profiling tools have a separate "heap" entry called PINNED |
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| 23:27:48 | <maralorn> | I wonder if I am keeping alive files I read in by parsing subtexts out of them. And maybe the Text is now just a pointer to the whole file with start and end? |
| 23:28:16 | <geekosaur> | possibly. iirc you are encouraged to copy slices to avoid that |
| 23:28:45 | <geekosaur> | although hm, in that case it should really have only one copy of it with multiple slice pointers? |
| 23:29:21 | <c_wraith> | if it's a lazy bytestring, it could be multiple pinned chunks |
| 23:33:51 | <maralorn> | It would make sense in my case because I am reading 2k files with each a few thousand bytes but only parse a tiny substring out of each of them. |
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| 23:41:02 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0.2/docs/Data-Text.html#v:copy |
| 23:41:19 | <geekosaur> | and yes, in that case you're likely keeping the whole file live |
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| 23:51:48 | <maralorn> | Yeah, that was it. |
| 23:52:25 | <maralorn> | I think I spend roughly 12 hours learning heap profiling, today. |
| 23:53:26 | <maralorn> | Reduced the memory footprint of my program from 80MB to 8MB. \o/ |
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| 23:55:29 | <yushyin> | nice~ |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-04-16.