Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-04-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:30:46 <probie> If I call `imap` with a strict function over a `Vector Word8` from Data.Vector.Storable, should I expect GHC to generate similar code to a naive for loop written in a language like C or Fortran (ignoring the code to allocate the destination Vector)?
03:32:58 <probie> (and assuming the function is inlined)
03:33:01 <c_wraith> in general, you can assume the higher-order functions behave that way, yes
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03:37:52 <probie> I guess the easiest thing to do would just be to compare it myself. Is there an easy way to see what assembly GHC generates for a function (or module)? Historically I've just called objdump on the produced executable, but navigating that isn't ideal.
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03:44:09 <probie> I couldn't find an answer for a specific function, but it'll do the entire module if you pass it `-S`
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04:15:56 <slack1256> Is it possible to use yampa with GTK without replicating a bunch of info between the two systems?
04:16:49 <slack1256> Most of the example of yampa that I see, draw the whole screen at the end of the step function. That is OK for games or html stuff. But for GTK, seems more complicated as it has its own event loop.
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08:01:52 <tomsmeding> probie: won't you see the individual function in the assembly if you {-# NOINLINE #-} the function?
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08:13:38 <probie> tomsmeding yes that will work, I was just hoping there some magical `--show-me-the-assembly-for "Module.function"` which prevented it from being inlined and would also print just the `_info` part
08:13:46 <probie> s/there some/there was some/
08:14:05 <tomsmeding> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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08:18:02 <merijn> probie: There's some RTS debug tools for walking and dumping info tables, iirc
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08:41:47 <probie> merijn: I think you may mean something else by "info table" than I mean by "the `_info` part". `SomeModule_someFunction_info` is (at least with the default GHC backend) the label that will appear in the assembly where the actual instructions start for `someFunction` from module `SomeModule`.
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08:42:40 <merijn> probie: That *sounds* like the info table, which afaik every function, value, and thunk has
08:42:54 <merijn> but you'll probably get more useful comments in #ghc
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09:25:35 <dminuoso> I have a bunch of worker threads that process requests. A request can be of type "start" or "update", and they have some user identifier attached to them. In my situation the initial start is almost always followed up by an update immediately afterwards. There's now a race condition where sometimes a worker thread will process the update first.
09:25:55 <dminuoso> However, I must also cater for the reality that an initial `start` might have been missed (I consider such records orphan records)
09:27:05 <dminuoso> How can I sensibly avoid generating orphan records in the general case? My most naive attempt would be to consistently add a threadDelay whenever I get an update record, but given that update records is almost everything I ever process, this stupidly delays their processing
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09:28:11 <dminuoso> Another idea Ive been playing with is to just consider them orphan records that get "adopted" if a start message arrives within seconds, but that creates synchronization problems.
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09:29:29 <dminuoso> Or is using an STM `TVar (Set UserIdentifier)` as a poor mans associative MVar a good idea to avoid concurrent processing (such that I can
09:29:39 <dminuoso> safely do an adoption process?
09:31:31 <__monty__> Does start *need* to be a separate request? Or could you have the first update request implicitly imply start?
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09:34:23 <dminuoso> __monty__: Yes, its out of my control
09:35:39 <mauke> start must block updates of the same entity
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09:36:18 <mauke> but wouldn't concurrent updates of the same entity race against each other, too?
09:36:31 <dminuoso> mauke: a block wont help if the update is processed first.
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09:36:50 <dminuoso> Due to timing and some batching involved, in about 0,1% of the cases an update is indeed processed first
09:37:36 <mauke> that's rather my point: don't process updates first
09:38:16 <dminuoso> Maybe I thought about it wrong. So the reality is, because this is an unreliable network I must in principle allow for a start to not occur.
09:38:21 <dminuoso> So I cant just block until I see a start
09:38:24 <chreekat> can 'start' be reformulated as a kind of 'update'?
09:39:07 <mauke> if you don't see a start, don't block
09:39:32 <mauke> I mean, are these messages ordered or not?
09:42:32 <dminuoso> mauke: If an update arrives not even a millisecond after the a start, and you're working with multiple concurrent workers, then you have a race condition.
09:43:18 <mauke> only if you hand out updates indiscriminately
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09:44:10 <dminuoso> As mentioned earlier, a start is necessarily almost always followed by an update
09:45:08 <mauke> what kind of uncontrollable event loop is this?
09:45:41 <dminuoso> This is RADIUS messages. As per standard, Start and Interim-Update are different messages
09:45:57 <mauke> the nature of the messages doesn't really matter
09:46:15 <dminuoso> Im just saying its external networking equipment
09:46:45 <mauke> the point is that you shouldn't start processing updates until all outstanding starts are done for the same entity
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09:46:57 <mauke> (and probably all outstanding updates, too)
09:47:07 <dminuoso> I dont know whether there's outstanding starts
09:47:12 <mauke> why not?
09:47:25 <dminuoso> If the worker thread processing the update is just lucky to get CPU time first
09:47:39 <dminuoso> Then I might not even have come to the point where I know whether or not a start message is in the queue
09:47:53 <mauke> <mauke> only if you hand out updates indiscriminately
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09:48:04 <mauke> don't let worker threads start processing random messages out of order
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09:49:07 <dminuoso> Okay I see your point.
09:49:24 <dminuoso> So I guess I could have a smarter ingress queue that perhaps have some blocking logic to it.
09:50:02 <mauke> or a separate queue per user or something
09:51:06 <mauke> I'm not familiar with RADIUS, but I would assume it doesn't make sense to process interim updates out of order, either
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10:12:14 <dminuoso> mauke: Okay so thats subtly more complicated, but we can assume an interim update to fire only once an hour.
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10:13:34 <dminuoso> mauke: So the per-user queue bit is interesting, but that opens up a potential space leak (say if something cause a flood of start messages with random user identifiers)
10:13:48 <dminuoso> At least for a naive implementation
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10:14:49 <mauke> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SYN_flood :-D
10:15:16 <dminuoso> Right, something along those lines.
10:16:32 <dminuoso> Although, perhaps I dont need to worry about space leaks much.
10:17:02 <dminuoso> If I maintain something like `Map UserIdentifier ThreadId` as a map of currently running threads
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10:17:30 <dminuoso> And merely keep a backlog of requests that cant currently be scheduled
10:17:34 <dminuoso> Then the space leak disappears
10:18:11 <dminuoso> Of course then we get into scheduling.
10:18:37 <dminuoso> It's interesting how vastly different and complicated concurrency is.
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10:26:30 <dminuoso> mauke: Implementation-wise it will be vastly more simple to blindly spawn threads and use a blocking action - because it's essentially impossible to have more than `1 start + 1 update` concurrently
10:26:43 <dminuoso> So blocking will give me that ordering for that special case.
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11:47:27 <jean-paul[m]> are there clamped types already defined somewhere I could get at them?
11:48:59 <geekosaur> "clamped"?
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11:50:14 <jean-paul[m]> Types that stick to their min/max bound on overflow
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11:50:24 <geekosaur> nope
11:51:29 <dminuoso> jean-paul[m]: Curious, whats the use case for such types?
11:51:49 <geekosaur> (I think that makes them dependent types)
11:52:07 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Why would it?
11:52:30 <dminuoso> It would only if they got promoted to larger types on overflow
11:52:47 <merijn> dminuoso: Lots of physics and graphics problems
11:52:48 <geekosaur> typechecker may have to prove that extra code to clamp it doesn't have to be emitted?
11:53:09 <geekosaur> that, or every operation needs extra codegen to do the clamping
11:53:19 <dminuoso> I see, I was thinking of the latter.
11:53:21 <geekosaur> (and some will anyway)
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11:53:32 <dminuoso> Are there x86 instructions for such clamping behavior?
11:53:40 <jean-paul[m]> I can imagine ClampedInt low high being a dependent type, but I think it's simpler if you just have ClampedIntFromLowToHigh (ie, the bounds are not parameters, they're just intrinsic to the type)
11:53:58 <jean-paul[m]> A float clamped between 0 and 1 is used in graphics a lot
11:54:12 <jean-paul[m]> (which is basically what I'm doing)
11:54:32 <dminuoso> jean-paul[m]: Do clamping AMD64 instructions exist for the mathematical operations you're thinking of?
11:54:38 <dminuoso> Or would they require branching?
11:54:48 <jean-paul[m]> I have no idea :)
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11:55:27 <jean-paul[m]> my interest is mainly at the programming level ... can I arrange my code more neatly with such a type, does it make sense to have a Num instance for them, etc
11:56:10 <dminuoso> Oh I was merely wondering if those existed, whether they might be exposed as primops already,
11:56:32 <jean-paul[m]> I have never really ventured down to that level
11:56:52 <dminuoso> Interesting, so it seems the efficient way is cmp + cmov
11:57:34 <dminuoso> Presumably cmov just induces a data dependency, so I guess it will bypass branch predictors entirely
11:58:33 <dminuoso> I guess a highly efficient implementation would require custom primops then
11:58:55 <dminuoso> merijn: where does this appear in physics?
12:01:25 <merijn> dminuoso: Computational physics I meant, the kindas 2d/3d convolution stuff for, like, heat transfer, where you have grid boundaries
12:02:03 <probie> I think you can do this in arm without introducing branching via the conditional ops (not that many people are during numerically intense stuff on arm)
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12:09:57 <fbytez> What's the equivalent of c's `argv[0]`?
12:10:59 <dminuoso> getProgName
12:11:33 <dminuoso> fbytez: Be sure to read the haddock details about it.
12:11:44 <fbytez> Thankyou.
12:11:44 <dminuoso> There's some subtle potentially relevant portability issues with it.
12:12:12 <merijn> dminuoso: Are there? (as in, more so than in C?)
12:12:26 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/System-Environment.html#v:getProgName
12:12:32 geekosaur slow
12:12:45 <dminuoso> merijn: That's a good point, actually
12:13:05 <geekosaur> afaik they're the same as in C
12:14:25 <fbytez> However, this is hard-to-impossible to implement on some non-Unix OSes, so instead, for maximum portability, we just return the leafname of the program as invoked. Even then there are some differences between platforms: on Windows, for example, a program invoked as foo is probably really FOO.EXE, and that is what getProgName will return.
12:14:36 <dminuoso> Yeah I just browsed the RTS
12:14:37 <fbytez> ^ what is meant by "leafname"? basename?
12:15:00 <dminuoso> fbytez: Consider you might have invoked C:/foo/bar.exe
12:15:07 <dminuoso> or worse
12:15:12 <dminuoso> C:/foo/bar
12:15:18 <dminuoso> What would you expect?
12:15:28 <dminuoso> C:/foo/bar, C:/foo/bar.exe, bar, bar.exe?
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12:17:23 <dminuoso> `for example, a program invoked as foo is probably really FOO.EXE, and that is what getProgName will return.`
12:17:30 <dminuoso> Curiously the rts code doesnt look like it would do that.
12:17:47 <dminuoso> But I dont know. Maybe the windows loader will inject that .EXE
12:17:48 <geekosaur> I think some of that is Windows itself
12:17:52 <dminuoso> oh okay
12:17:58 <fbytez> I don't use Windows, but on Linux I'd expect /foo/bar to be /foo/bar
12:18:00 <dminuoso> The rts code definitely strips any directory information
12:18:02 <geekosaur> also the upcasing
12:18:03 <dminuoso> fbytez: nope
12:18:06 <dminuoso> fbytez: it would produce `bar`
12:18:12 <fbytez> Right, thanks.
12:18:28 <geekosaur> and drive letters aren't necessarily accurate by the time getProgName is called
12:18:32 <dminuoso> fbytez: and on windows C:\foo\bar would produce bar.EXE
12:18:36 <geekosaur> I mean, even DOS 2.11 had SUBST
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12:19:41 <dminuoso> Though if your Haskell program is required to have DOS 2.11 compatibility, I think you have different problems than getProgName.
12:19:53 <dminuoso> It wouldn't be my primary concern. :-)
12:20:07 <geekosaur> my point was more that they've aleways had a dynamic aspect
12:20:15 <dminuoso> Right.
12:20:19 <dminuoso> I guess the same holds true in linux too
12:20:35 <dminuoso> Since by the time you call getProgName, there could have been any number of bind mounts or unmounts.
12:21:38 <dminuoso> And I suppose you get into toc tou race as well, since the executable could have been renamed by the time getProgName is called
12:21:49 <dminuoso> s/toc tou/another toc tou/
12:22:53 <geekosaur> yep. so it's strongly recommended you not rely on argv[0] / getProgName for anything important
12:23:09 <merijn> Ah...filesystem operation...so easy, until you think about things
12:23:19 <merijn> Then it's TOCTOU races as far as the eye can see
12:24:12 <dminuoso> merijn: Im had some real love with S3 recently, which doesnt even imbue you with things that let you *think* you can solve them.
12:24:28 <dminuoso> On one hand its frustrating, because you're forced to do TOC TOU checks with obvious huge latencies.
12:24:54 <merijn> dminuoso: I think the (scrapped) idea of giving Windows Vista a proper transactional filesystem woulda been brilliant
12:24:57 <merijn> sadly that never happened
12:25:43 <merijn> Could've been really cool
12:25:56 <[exa]> merijn: it was just another flock frontend as far as I recall, no?
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12:26:42 <[exa]> as in, I don't recall that a properly journaled ntfs replacement would ever be in sight
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12:37:24 <mauke> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS
12:44:23 <merijn> [exa]: That's the one I was thinking off
12:49:22 <dminuoso> Is there a newtype that conceptually descripes an existential `exists e. Hashable a, Eq a *> e`?
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12:50:02 <dminuoso> Or maybe a typeclass?>
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12:53:20 <[exa]> mauke merijn: thx
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13:29:39 <dminuoso> mauke: Mmm, the more I try and think how to implement a queuing, it's not very satisfactory.
13:30:08 <dminuoso> Given that I might be getting thousands of requests per second in some situations, I want proper scalability in terms of stm retries.
13:30:49 <dminuoso> That being said https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ttrie is a pretty nifty thing, but it takes some effort verifying its internals
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14:09:35 <c_wraith> ok, so... I've been thinking about the difficulty I was seeing in getting ghci to <<loop>> yesterday, and I have a hypothesis. Only a major GC will detect loops in the threaded runtime, and sometime in recent years major GCs have been set to return early if there haven't been enough allocations to escape the nursery since the last major gc
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14:11:06 <c_wraith> that still doesn't feel complete, but it would explain a lot of it.
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17:01:38 <fbytez> Have I written the following idiomatically?
17:01:44 <fbytez> let r = filter (\c -> not (isSpace c || isControl c)) string
17:02:29 <int-e> @pl \c -> not (isSpace c || isControl c)
17:02:29 <lambdabot> not . liftM2 (||) isSpace isControl
17:02:42 <int-e> sheer beauty
17:03:21 <int-e> :t not . ((||) <$> isSpace <*> isControl)
17:03:22 <lambdabot> Char -> Bool
17:03:28 <int-e> I'd leave it as is.
17:03:29 <Guest79> Is there any completely portable development environment for haskell (everything needed in one folder)?
17:03:51 <fbytez> int-e, as I did or as your first example?
17:04:17 <int-e> fbytez: the way you wrote it
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17:04:28 <fbytez> Thanks for taking a look.
17:04:31 <mauke> fbytez: looks good to me
17:05:49 <int-e> there's also [c | c <- string, not (isSpace c || isControl c)] with it's own flavor
17:06:19 <int-e> but if you use `filter` it'll still basically work if you later switch to Text, for example.
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17:55:10 <sm> Guest79: no, I think an online environment like code.world/haskell or repl.it would probably be the closest
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17:55:41 <sm[i]> argh, did it again
17:56:03 <sm[i]> those speedy Guests
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18:12:44 <bionade24> Do you also see those <haskell> tags on this page? https://wiki.haskell.org/How_to_get_rid_of_IO Those should be fields, shouldn't they?
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18:15:54 <tomsmeding> I get the feeling that the haskell wiki css is kinda broken
18:15:59 <int-e> if you look at the source it says :<haskell>, then a line of Haskell code, and the </haskell>... is there a markup dialog that works like this for code blocks?
18:16:00 <tomsmeding> pages that looked fine before have the same issue
18:16:10 <tomsmeding> e.g. https://wiki.haskell.org/State_Monad
18:17:11 <sm> I have a feeling hgolden upgraded the wiki and was/is working on fixing
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18:18:13 <int-e> or was there a custom plugin for making <haskell>...</haskell> work that is now absent or broken
18:19:00 <int-e> would #haskell-infrastructure care about this?
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18:26:22 <monochrom> There is always a custom plugin for <haskell> and I think <hask> (difference: block vs inline).
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18:27:07 <monochrom> And it has always been toggling between working and not working.
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18:27:51 <monochrom> <code> and <pre> always work.
18:30:19 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Get it to work before get it to look fancy. If <haskell> buys you colours at the price of being broken every 5 years, I say KISS and use <code> or <pre>.
18:30:42 <tomsmeding> every 5 years could've been worse
18:31:12 <tomsmeding> my university uses MS Teams, and that breaks every few weeks
18:31:17 <tomsmeding> in various interesting ways
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18:52:01 <bionade24> int-e: Did you or someone else report this in #haskell-infra ? I don't want this to be forgotten again.
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18:53:36 int-e didn't
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19:04:40 <fbytez> Is there a standard function / operator that curries functions in reverse order to `.`?
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19:05:18 <tomsmeding> :t (>>>)
19:05:20 <lambdabot> forall k (cat :: k -> k -> *) (a :: k) (b :: k) (c :: k). Category cat => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c
19:05:26 <tomsmeding> :t (>>>) @(->)
19:05:27 <lambdabot> error: parse error on input ‘->’
19:05:34 <tomsmeding> % :set -XTypeApplications
19:05:34 <yahb2> <no output>
19:05:39 <fbytez> Is it in prelude?
19:05:43 <tomsmeding> % :t (Control.Category.>>>) @(->)
19:05:43 <yahb2> (Control.Category.>>>) @(->) ; :: Control.Category.Category (->) => (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c
19:05:51 <tomsmeding> no, it's there
19:05:58 <fbytez> Right, thanks very much.
19:06:22 <tomsmeding> % :t (Control.Category.<<<) @(->) -- fbytez this is just (.) with a different name
19:06:22 <yahb2> (Control.Category.<<<) @(->) -- fbytez this is just (.) with a different name ; :: Control.Category.Category (->) => (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
19:06:31 <tomsmeding> lol double mention, sorry
19:06:50 <fbytez> No problem at all.
19:10:50 <fbytez> What am I doing here? Needs some form of quoting? -- `import Control.Category (>>>)`
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19:11:00 <fbytez> *doing wrong
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19:14:18 <fbytez> error: parse error on input ‘>>>’
19:16:51 <jean-paul[m]> you need more ()
19:17:00 <jean-paul[m]> the outer set of ( ) introduces your import list
19:17:30 <jean-paul[m]> then a set of ( ) around >>> lets you identify the thing-with-a-funny-name
19:18:05 <jean-paul[m]> like if you wanted to refer to >>> as a value, you would `x = (>>>)`, not `x = >>>`
19:18:10 <fbytez> Because of it being an infix operator?
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19:19:16 <jean-paul[m]> Actually I'm not sure what the essential cause is, maybe someone else can enlighten us
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19:22:19 <geekosaur> it turns an infix operator into a prefix function
19:22:36 <geekosaur> conversely `` turns a prefix function into an infix operator
19:23:10 <unit73e> I just found out that haddock has SVG like this one here: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/active-0.2.0.17/docs/Data-Active.html#g:7
19:23:13 <unit73e> very neat imo
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19:43:20 <fbytez> Thanks, jean-paul[m] and geekosaur.
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21:28:08 <fbytez> If anyone is interested, the following is a simple irc privmsg binary, which is what you've been helping me with: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/blh01bZQ
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23:18:04 × tremon quits (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
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23:18:30 × jero98772 quits (~jero98772@2800:484:1d84:9000::3) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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23:24:39 → Me-me joins (~Me-me@146.102.215.218.dyn.iprimus.net.au)
23:24:42 × Me-me quits (~Me-me@146.102.215.218.dyn.iprimus.net.au) (Changing host)
23:24:42 → Me-me joins (~Me-me@user/me-me)
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23:32:05 × stiell_ quits (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:32:27 → stiell_ joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
23:34:02 → emmanuelux joins (~emmanuelu@user/emmanuelux)
23:34:13 × gurkenglas quits (~gurkengla@dynamic-046-114-176-254.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
23:34:58 jpds4 is now known as jpds
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23:46:25 × mauke quits (~mauke@user/mauke) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:46:25 mauke_ is now known as mauke
23:47:07 × bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Remote host closed the connection)
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23:48:16 × Goodbye_Vincent quits (cyvahl@freakshells.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:48:58 → Goodbye_Vincent joins (cyvahl@freakshells.net)
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All times are in UTC on 2023-04-24.