Logs on 2023-04-25 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:20:00 | <jwiegley> | why is logBase 0 1 = -0.0 rather than NaN? |
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| 05:43:04 | <mikko> | jwiegley: because it's definition is "logBase x y = log y / log x" (not that it makes it correct but it seems most software makes the same "mistake") |
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| 06:08:06 | <mikko> | jwiegley: https://bpa.st/YN5IY looks like it's not NaN in any language, and in all languages where it's not a runtime error it's 0 |
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| 07:11:30 | <jwiegley> | well, log 0 = -Infinity, so I wouldn't expect that definition of logBase to yield -0.0 |
| 07:12:02 | <jwiegley> | the spec I'm looking at is https://speleotrove.com/decimal/, which disagrees with Haskell for both ^ and logBase on a few inputs; just wondering |
| 07:13:48 | <mikko> | 0.0 / -Infinity is -0.0, that's where it comes from |
| 07:14:37 | <jwiegley> | oh, sorry, I flipped the arguments in my head again |
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| 07:40:27 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: I wish () would cancel `` out. |
| 07:40:43 | <dminuoso> | (`foo`) ought to be syntactically equivalent to foo. |
| 07:40:51 | <dminuoso> | syntax isomorphism. |
| 07:41:06 | <geekosaur> | if you can come up with a syntactic replacement for the closing ` then it'd be possible |
| 07:42:06 | <dminuoso> | How do you mean? |
| 07:42:25 | <dminuoso> | And similarly, I would want `(+)` to work as in infix position. |
| 07:43:20 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: if you don't use some kind of reverse ` for "closing", it doesn't have unique parses |
| 07:43:29 | <[exa]> | say e.g. `+`+`+` |
| 07:43:37 | <geekosaur> | if opening and closing chars are the same then you need some kind of escape syntax to handle the case of multiple nestings (compare strings, and for that matter why shells switched from `` to $()) |
| 07:44:11 | <geekosaur> | because once you allow (`foo`) you have the possibility of further nestings |
| 07:44:49 | <geekosaur> | well, thta's not entirely true because (`foo`) is almost valid as is because of sections |
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| 07:54:20 | tomsmeding | . o O ( `(`foo`)` ) |
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| 07:58:00 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Interesting idea, for better visual readability, line comments should start with . o O |
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| 07:58:05 | <dminuoso> | And be enclosed in parens. |
| 07:59:00 | <geekosaur> | probably exists somewhere. isn't there a "cat macro" (eso)language? |
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| 08:03:54 | <probie> | The J language has comments start with `NB.` which I enjoy |
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| 08:07:43 | <dminuoso> | probie: that dot would trigger me heavily. |
| 08:07:48 | <geekosaur> | I kinda liked APL's "lamp" (raised small circle overprinted with cap) |
| 08:07:56 | <dminuoso> | Either it should be NB or N.B. |
| 08:09:07 | <jade[m]> | geekosaur: yesh that one's fun |
| 08:09:12 | <jade[m]> | * yeah that one's fun |
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| 08:11:52 | <dminuoso> | Is there any value of using a `TVar (M.Map K V)` when there is no other STM references in any STM transaction over using an MVar () as a mutex around an `IORef (Map K V)`? |
| 08:14:08 | <geekosaur> | I'm gonna let someone else answer that one, I've had exactly three hours of sleep and don't quite trust my reasoning to that level |
| 08:15:27 | <mikko> | [exa]: mhm, i kinda like the look of Ì+Í+Ì+Í... |
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| 08:16:18 | <mikko> | plus we could call them ìnfíx i's |
| 08:16:21 | <jade[m]> | that looks like a gate |
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| 08:17:17 | <jade[m]> | Í=Î=Î=Ì |
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| 08:23:39 | <dminuoso> | Mmm, in fact it might be even cuter to use `MVar (IORef (Map K V))` as a way to guarantee you cant misuse this. |
| 08:23:43 | <dminuoso> | That's not too bad indeed. |
| 08:33:30 | <merijn> | dminuoso: What's the point of that? |
| 08:33:43 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Isn't that just "MVar (Map K V)" with extra steps? |
| 08:33:59 | <dminuoso> | I guess it is. |
| 08:35:07 | <geekosaur> | I was thinking that too, but as I said I don't quite trust myself currently |
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| 08:52:35 | <jonathan_> | I remember reading somewhere that it's bad practice to have a sum type with record syntax for the constructors. I can't remember any details, does anyone know the reasoning? |
| 08:53:20 | <geekosaur> | what's bad practice is data Foo = A { record here} | B { record here } |
| 08:53:53 | <geekosaur> | because all fields need to be present in all alternatives or the selector functions will be partial |
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| 08:55:05 | <geekosaur> | @let data Foo = FooA { fName :: String, fInt :: Int } | FooB { fName :: String, fStr :: String } |
| 08:55:06 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:55:42 | <geekosaur> | @let anA = FooA "bleh" 1 |
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| 08:55:43 | <lambdabot> | Defined. |
| 08:55:57 | <geekosaur> | > fStr anA -- boom |
| 08:55:58 | <lambdabot> | "*Exception: No match in record selector fStr |
| 08:57:17 | <merijn> | geekosaur: That's fine practice, just enable (disable? :p) -XNoFieldSelectors |
| 08:58:03 | <merijn> | Hot take: Selector functions were a mistake |
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| 09:16:43 | <lyxia> | record updates too |
| 09:18:40 | <merijn> | Record updates are fine |
| 09:19:04 | <dminuoso> | lens provides a pretty ergonomic way to talk about nested access patterns, even updates. |
| 09:19:04 | <merijn> | In what way are they a mistake? |
| 09:19:18 | <dminuoso> | So I think record updates are fine, even though they are fairly useless in a nested scenario |
| 09:19:44 | <merijn> | lyxia: Selector functions are a mistake because a desirable usecase (multiple constructors with named fields) becomes 'bad' due to generating loads of partial functions |
| 09:19:57 | <merijn> | lyxia: afaict there's no negative interaction from record updates |
| 09:23:14 | <dminuoso> | I dont think selector functions are really important anyway, since you can just use pattern matching `f Foo{field = x} = ...` |
| 09:23:33 | <dminuoso> | Which at the same is fully robust |
| 09:27:10 | <nshepperd2> | with -XNoFieldSelectors you can also write your own field selectors when they happen to be total, without having to call the fields themselves "getFoo" which is gross |
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| 09:33:41 | <jzerebecki> | trying to file a ghc bug report, login after account creation getting, "Your account is pending approval from your GitLab administrator and hence blocked. Please contact your GitLab administrator if you think this is an error. ", any advice how to proceed? |
| 09:34:22 | <geekosaur> | ask in #ghc, you generally have to be a bit of a squeaky wheel to push the process along |
| 09:35:02 | <geekosaur> | (approval stuff is because there was a shitload of spam on gitlab before they instituted it) |
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| 09:37:01 | <jzerebecki> | thx |
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| 09:39:46 | <merijn> | In my experience #ghc or ghc-devs mailing list gets pretty fast response |
| 09:40:06 | <merijn> | I think you can just authenticate via github too? |
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| 09:44:51 | <lyxia> | merijn: is it not a problem to update a field that doesn't exist? |
| 09:46:17 | <merijn> | lyxia: Update is disabled for types with no selectors |
| 09:46:28 | <lyxia> | I see. |
| 09:46:41 | <merijn> | ah, wait, no I misread these docs, lemme check :p |
| 09:49:06 | <merijn> | hmm, guess I need a no -XNoUpdates too :p |
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| 10:05:24 | <fbytez> | Is `Data.Function.&` the closest thing to the "opposite" of `$`? -- `string & (words >>> unwords)` |
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| 10:06:58 | <dminuoso> | fbytez: what does "opposite" mean to you? |
| 10:08:36 | <fbytez> | Like, apply following functions to preceding data instead of apply functions to following data. |
| 10:08:40 | <dminuoso> | I mean it has flipped arguments, but one notable difference is that (&) is infixl 1, not infixl 0 |
| 10:09:19 | <fbytez> | Sorry, I don't understand the terminology (infixl 1, not infixl 0) |
| 10:09:21 | <dminuoso> | The core of ($) isnt as much function application, as it is `infixr 0` |
| 10:09:49 | <dminuoso> | fbytez: So in Haskell we can control whether an operator is left or right associative, and also how strong its associativity is |
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| 10:11:38 | <fbytez> | What do the "1" and "0" represent? |
| 10:11:41 | <mauke> | those are infix declarations. they're the reason why a + b * c parses as a + (b * c) and not vice versa |
| 10:11:50 | <mauke> | the numbers are the operator precedence |
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| 10:12:11 | <mauke> | s/vice versa/as (a + b) * c/ |
| 10:12:22 | <fbytez> | Ah... I understand. Thankyou, both. |
| 10:14:08 | <dminuoso> | fbytez: Anyway. Now I should note that for ($) it doesnt really matter whether its right or left associative (there's general consensus that it would have been better if it was written as left-associative/infixl), whats really important is that `0` |
| 10:14:13 | <dminuoso> | which means it binds stronger than almost anything. |
| 10:14:19 | <fbytez> | When it comes to compilation, is there any difference between `string & (words >>> unwords)` and `string & words & unwords`? |
| 10:14:32 | <dminuoso> | The only other operator that binds even stronger is the empty space (which you can think of a function application operator, semnatically) |
| 10:14:46 | <fbytez> | Right. |
| 10:15:13 | <dminuoso> | fbytez: Mmm okay so there might not be a difference. If there is, then (>>>) has the bigger potential to lead to worse code. |
| 10:15:21 | <dminuoso> | It depends a bit on some factors. |
| 10:15:40 | <dminuoso> | The reason is that (>>>) is polymorphic over a typeclass, (&) is monomorphic. |
| 10:16:13 | <dminuoso> | Another is that RULES might not fire depending on inlining, or fire later |
| 10:16:31 | <dminuoso> | But neither of these things is something I would worry about. |
| 10:16:38 | <fbytez> | Right. |
| 10:16:39 | <dminuoso> | If performance issues arise, they can be addressed. |
| 10:17:15 | <fbytez> | And how about compared to the "usual" ordering, like: `unwords $ words $ string`? |
| 10:17:30 | <dminuoso> | I dont consider that usual at all. |
| 10:17:36 | <fbytez> | Oh. |
| 10:17:42 | <dminuoso> | There's a broad range of Haskellers that consider ($) a bad idea. |
| 10:18:03 | <fbytez> | I wasn't expecting that. |
| 10:18:11 | <dminuoso> | Most of the "acceptable uses" have been subsumed by the BlockArguments extension |
| 10:18:31 | <dminuoso> | But note, this will depend on who you ask. There's obviously people that like ($) in their code a lot. |
| 10:19:26 | <fbytez> | I tend to view it as a shorthand for `()` on all following functions / data. |
| 10:19:59 | <fbytez> | How would you expect it to be written? |
| 10:20:11 | <fbytez> | `unwords (words string)`? |
| 10:20:48 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 10:21:23 | <fbytez> | OK. Thanks for all the info. |
| 10:21:28 | <dminuoso> | Parenthesis make for easier refactoring and generally a better editor experience. |
| 10:21:44 | <dminuoso> | And if the number of parenthesis become too much, you're probably better off using surrogate bindings in a where clause |
| 10:21:52 | <dminuoso> | (Or other top level bindings) |
| 10:22:31 | <dminuoso> | fbytez: But anyway, I want to emphasize that whether or not to use ($) is still very subjective. |
| 10:22:56 | <dminuoso> | Given how frequently I see what I perceive as "an overuse of ($)", there's clearly a broad audience that enjoys it. |
| 10:24:17 | <fbytez> | Right. As I say, I viewed like a way to reduce use of '()' in a chain. |
| 10:24:30 | <dminuoso> | I dont think of parenthesis as being bad in any way. |
| 10:24:46 | <dminuoso> | You dont really end up saving anything if you replace one grammatical distinguisher with another. |
| 10:24:54 | <dminuoso> | It changes the style. |
| 10:25:07 | <dminuoso> | One clear and objective benefit of parenthesis is that you can easily refacftor something |
| 10:26:14 | <fbytez> | Same, really -- I rather like lisp -- just lazier to write. |
| 10:27:46 | <fbytez> | Does it potentially compile better as it's just stating precedence rather than applying a function? |
| 10:32:17 | <mauke> | unwords . words $ string |
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| 10:34:17 | <fbytez> | mauke, that'd probably be my default. |
| 10:41:05 | <fbytez> | Well, the first method that comes to mind; I'm too new to have a default. |
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| 10:56:44 | <jackdk> | I tend to go with `unwords $ words string` because I like minimising punctuation |
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| 10:59:54 | <fbytez> | Yeah, it does read well, I think. |
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| 11:09:36 | <eldritchcookie[m> | hello i would like for stackage to use gi-gtk 4. . which packages are the reason to use gi-gtk 3. .? |
| 11:12:56 | <tomsmeding> | merijn: if updates are not a problem if you disable them completely, then the updates _were_ a problem :p |
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| 11:26:47 | <merijn> | tomsmeding: I was just misremembering the details of what NoFieldSelectors did |
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| 12:52:57 | <eldritchcookie[m> | say does cabal always build all libraries in a package? |
| 12:53:46 | <eldritchcookie[m> | ie say i depend in library:x in package y will cabal build all libraries in that package or will it only build x? |
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| 13:23:32 | <fryguybob> | dminuoso: The MVar version imposes fairness, but at a cost. The TVar version does not. Performance would probably depend on both the workload and the hardware. |
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| 13:30:25 | <merijn> | eldritchcookie[m: As in when using multi-library packages? |
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| 13:31:24 | <merijn> | eldritchcookie[m: It should only built the necessary ones, but that's also fairly new-ish and untested, since hackage only very recently introduced (experimental) multi-library support, iirc |
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| 13:47:07 | <dminuoso> | fryguybob: Right. So very roughly Im just accepting UDP packets and forkIO their processing. It's just that for packets associated with a particular identifier, I want to process them in order. |
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| 13:48:42 | <dminuoso> | So part of the idea is to have some kind of `MVar (IntMap [OutstandingRequest])` that has N keys (say 4096 or some such), hash the identifier `mod` N, and use that for some simple and naive scheduling |
| 13:50:37 | <dminuoso> | Or well, it would have to be a bit more elaborate than that |
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| 13:51:19 | <dminuoso> | Something `MVar (IntMap Bucket)` with `data Bucket = Running { backlog :: [OutstandingRequest] } | Free` maybe |
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| 14:00:00 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: what's the difference between Runniong [] and Free |
| 14:01:12 | <tomsmeding> | this sounds like an mvar that's going to be heavily contended |
| 14:01:59 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: are the packets received and put into the map sequentially? If not, it sounds hard to ensure that they're going to be handled in order |
| 14:02:08 | <tomsmeding> | (also, what does order even mean with UDP) |
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| 14:11:59 | <jean-paul[m]> | I copied `MainWidget` from reflex-dom (where it is in "other-modules", not exposed) into my project. I copied the .c, .hsc, and .h files for it. I added it to my project's"other-modules" and added an "include-dirs" so the header file can be found. At runtime, I get a link error - Reflex_Dom_Android_MainWidget_runJS is not found. It seems like I got linked against the reflex-dom version of the library instead of mine? |
| 14:13:12 | <jean-paul[m]> | I'm surprised I'm even allowed to link against a non-exposed module from reflex-dom ... |
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| 14:18:41 | <jean-paul[m]> | Oh, dang. That's just a literal string in MainWidget.hsc. Nevermind. |
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| 14:29:48 | <jean-paul[m]> | I also didn't tell cabal that it needs the hsc2hs build-tool ... but now everything works. I wonder why (or what's broken that I didn't notice). |
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| 14:30:43 | <jean-paul[m]> | was I supposed to let cabal run hsc2hs on MainWidget.hsc to generate MainWidget.c and MainWidget.h? |
| 14:33:18 | <c_wraith> | jean-paul[m]: yeah, cabal should handle it. |
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| 14:35:50 | <c_wraith> | jean-paul[m]: also... .hsc feels very weird when compiling to javascript. The whole point of .hsc files is to capture your C compiler's generated definitions and then make a haskell file from them. |
| 14:37:10 | <c_wraith> | I don't see how that fits into compiling to js |
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| 14:47:29 | <probie> | c_wraith: Doesn't reflex have a non-js mode which uses whatever GTK's webview is? |
| 14:47:47 | <jean-paul[m]> | I don't think it ever goes to JavaScript. Instead, it goes to C to do stuff with JNI to invoke Java Android SDK stuff. It's in reflex-dom, I guess, because ... what probie said |
| 14:48:31 | <c_wraith> | oh, I was assuming it was in the JS portion because of your mention of a runJS module. But yeah, it does have native parts. |
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| 14:50:02 | <jean-paul[m]> | MainWidget.h and MainWidget.c look pretty hand-crafted though, not generated... 😕 |
| 14:50:05 | <c_wraith> | So when you have an .hsc file, cabal will run the hsc2hs tool automatically, as long as it's installed. (and it should be packaged with ghc in most cases, iirc). Any .c, .h, and .hs files generated in the process are build artifacts and should be ignored unless you need them for debugging. |
| 14:51:16 | <c_wraith> | Hmm. just a naming coincidence then? |
| 14:54:29 | <jean-paul[m]> | Seems likely ... I'm not exactly sure how to check. Since it's for Android, I can only build with a cross-compiler, and the cross-compiler setup inserts a bunch of layers between me and any actual hsc2c invocation that's happening. |
| 14:54:41 | <jean-paul[m]> | er, hsc2hs |
| 14:56:27 | <jean-paul[m]> | Okay, there's hand-written comments in the files that don't match, gonna take that as conclusive. |
| 14:57:16 | <jean-paul[m]> | I guess some other part of the cross-compile setup could be bringing hsc2hs along, covering up my mistake in not telling cabal about it ...? I really don't know how all these pieces fit together. |
| 14:59:10 | <c_wraith> | well, cross-compiling is also a weird thought with hsc2hs |
| 14:59:28 | <c_wraith> | it needs to run the generated .c file on the target platform to work correctly |
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| 15:01:08 | <c_wraith> | It's roughly like template haskell, in that sense |
| 15:01:11 | <jean-paul[m]> | I'm pretty sure there are no arm emulators in this build tool chain.. so I dunno. |
| 15:02:01 | <c_wraith> | I guess it doesn't need to run on arm, it just needs the C compiler to set constants the way it would on arm. |
| 15:02:11 | <c_wraith> | It's possible there are build flags for that. |
| 15:02:39 | <merijn> | jean-paul[m]: Basically, the problem is that hsc2hs is used to generate stuff like "accessors for C structs", but C structs aren't portable |
| 15:02:41 | <jean-paul[m]> | Okay, that part I could see working. There's a lot of effort put in to getting the C toolchain set up for cross-compilation. |
| 15:03:06 | <merijn> | jean-paul[m]: So the only "real" way to get the right offsets, etc. is to use a C compiler to compile C code and have it report the correct offsets/padding/etc. for your specific code |
| 15:04:28 | <merijn> | But hsc2hs doesn't just compile the C code, but also runs the resulting binary, so I think any form of cross-compilation using hsc2hs is just "lol, I'm happy I'm not you" :p |
| 15:05:24 | <jean-paul[m]> | heh |
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| 17:15:38 | <t0ngub1n> | hey |
| 17:15:54 | <t0ngub1n> | does anyone know why this gives a parse error? |
| 17:16:12 | <t0ngub1n> | (_:t) @ (x:y:_) |
| 17:16:26 | <t0ngub1n> | error: |
| 17:16:27 | <t0ngub1n> | [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( main.hs, main.o ) |
| 17:16:27 | <t0ngub1n> | main.hs:17:23: error: parse error on input ‘@’ |
| 17:16:27 | <t0ngub1n> | | |
| 17:16:27 | <t0ngub1n> | 17 | xorEncodeWorker (_:t) @ (x:y:_) = x `xor` y : xorEncodeWorker t |
| 17:16:27 | <t0ngub1n> | | ^ |
| 17:18:32 | <mauke> | the thing before @ in a pattern must be an identifier IIRC |
| 17:19:27 | <t0ngub1n> | so I have to use list @ (x:y:_) and then in function body (tail list) instead of t? |
| 17:22:05 | <xerox> | > let f (x:xs@(y:_)) = (x + y)*length xs in f [1..3] |
| 17:22:07 | <lambdabot> | 6 |
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| 17:27:29 | <t0ngub1n> | > do { let func (_:t @ (x:y:_)) = x+y : t; putStrLn func [1:2:3] } |
| 17:27:30 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:64: error: parse error on input ‘}’ |
| 17:28:02 | <t0ngub1n> | let func (_:t @ (x:y:_)) = x+y : t in func [1,2,3] |
| 17:28:11 | <t0ngub1n> | >let func (_:t @ (x:y:_)) = x+y : t in func [1,2,3] |
| 17:28:18 | <t0ngub1n> | > let func (_:t @ (x:y:_)) = x+y : t in func [1,2,3] |
| 17:28:19 | <lambdabot> | [5,2,3] |
| 17:28:34 | <t0ngub1n> | > let func ((_:t) @ (x:y:_)) = x+y : t in func [1,2,3] |
| 17:28:35 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘@’ |
| 17:30:17 | <tomsmeding> | t0ngub1n: what about 'func (x : t@(y : _))' ? |
| 17:30:33 | <t0ngub1n> | maybe |
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| 17:31:45 | <t0ngub1n> | @tomsmeding thank you! it worked |
| 17:31:46 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 18:16:46 | <nick2> | I'm trying to install the PBKDF2 package in cabal, but it says: (conflict: PBKDF2 => base>=4.3 && <4.9). However, the newest base (according to Hackage) looks like 4.18.0.0. What am I doing wrong here? |
| 18:17:49 | <[exa]> | nick2: it's deprecated, see the notice here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/PBKDF2 |
| 18:18:33 | <[exa]> | nick2: this one should do the same while being compatible with recent compilers https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pbkdf |
| 18:19:19 | <nick2> | That's a different package: i.e. Crypto.PBKDF2. I'm looking for Data.Password.PBKDF2 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/password-3.0.2.1 |
| 18:20:09 | <nick2> | Maybe I'm selecting the wrong one from cabal list? |
| 18:21:17 | <[exa]> | ah that's package `password`, not PBKDF2 |
| 18:21:22 | <nick2> | ah ok |
| 18:21:28 | <nick2> | I see my issue now |
| 18:21:59 | <[exa]> | module names vs pkg names get confusing sometimes, best just hoogle it to be sure :] |
| 18:22:24 | <[exa]> | e.g. https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=Data.Password.PBKDF2%20is%3Amodule |
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| 18:24:50 | <nick2> | Hoogle is how I found it, but its a little confusing navigating around the actual package. password still says: base (>=4.9 && <5) for that package, that doesn't make sense to me |
| 18:25:47 | <nick2> | further cabal says it contains no executables so do I have to just compile this from source? |
| 18:26:15 | <sclv> | well "install" is designed for executables |
| 18:26:37 | <sclv> | to use it, you typically just add it as a dependency to the package that needs it and cabal handles using it behind the scenes |
| 18:27:14 | <sclv> | there _is_ a local install of pckages, via "cabal install --lib" but its UI is still a work in progress -- it manages a "ghc environment file" so you need to know about those to use it sanely |
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| 18:39:26 | <[exa]> | nick2: here hackage clearly says <4.9 right? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/PBKDF2 |
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| 18:40:16 | <nick2> | it does, but it also says >=4.3 |
| 18:40:44 | <[exa]> | yeah that's the other half of the supported interval :D |
| 18:40:48 | <nick2> | am I wrong in assuming that means any version of base from 4.3 up to but not including 4.9? |
| 18:41:26 | <[exa]> | yes literally as the inequalities say there |
| 18:41:34 | <nick2> | what I don't understand is how can the dependency be greater than the current version of base i.e. 4.18.0.0 |
| 18:41:39 | <[exa]> | (version >= 4.3 && version < 4.9) |
| 18:41:58 | <[exa]> | and 4.18 is bigger than 4.9 |
| 18:42:32 | <nick2> | ah I see I'm dumb. I'm being dyslexic. |
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| 19:03:41 | <eldritchcookie[m> | hello does anyone have experience designing the overall architecture of an application? i am planning a somewhat big project(for one person) and would really like some advice |
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| 19:16:44 | <[exa]> | eldritchcookie[m: well like, what kind of application |
| 19:17:05 | <eldritchcookie[m> | a Virtual tabletop |
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| 19:17:33 | <[exa]> | nick2: I'm having problems with the same tbh, last time something like 0.1.10.1 vs 0.1.9.8 optically muuuuuuuuuch bigger right? |
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| 19:18:15 | <[exa]> | eldritchcookie[m: like e.g. for playing card games? |
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| 19:19:18 | <eldritchcookie[m> | kind of, the idea is to use for TTRPG so something similar to maptool |
| 19:19:34 | <eldritchcookie[m> | https://github.com/RPTools/maptool |
| 19:20:05 | <yushyin> | so more like foundryvtt |
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| 19:20:24 | <eldritchcookie[m> | yes exactly |
| 19:21:21 | <[exa]> | well, studying the existing stuff helps a lot |
| 19:21:28 | <yushyin> | i like foundryvtt :) |
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| 19:24:13 | <eldritchcookie[m> | most are closed source and the only open source one is the one i sent |
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| 19:25:13 | <eldritchcookie[m> | and what i want isn't how to make a VTT and more things like how to persist application state assuming i will have multiple versions |
| 19:25:45 | <eldritchcookie[m> | or what are the trade offs of using a custom monad versus a DSL |
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| 19:32:45 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 19:32:59 | <sm> | existing apps you want to mimic at least gives an idea of the functionality and concepts, and from this maybe you can sketch the data model |
| 19:33:27 | <sm> | I would build a series of progressively more capable prototypes using the simplest haskell that works at each stage |
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| 19:37:07 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i fear local maxima like the bubonic plague and while your suggestion is reasonable and we should take care to not over engineer there is the equally dangerous scenerio of under engineering |
| 19:37:16 | <eldritchcookie[m> | i do not what to rewrite code |
| 19:37:39 | <eldritchcookie[m> | *i do not want to rewrite code as much as possible |
| 19:38:01 | <sm> | yes, you should plan to rewrite at least some code unless you have perfect knowledge of the tools and the domain |
| 19:39:00 | <sm> | you'll never get stuck; haskell is always refactorable |
| 19:40:09 | <sm> | but certainly get as clear as you about the spec, data model, architecture, as you can before each coding phase. Usually there's some back and forth |
| 19:41:31 | <geekosaur> | I used to do this for a living. Turns out people are lousy about specs |
| 19:43:33 | <eldritchcookie[m> | do you guys think i can get away with something like freeciv's rulesets(only data) or will i need scripting? |
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| 19:44:16 | <geekosaur> | that depends a lot on what exactly you need to do |
| 19:44:46 | <namiroff> | What would I need to do in order to build a compiler in Haskell |
| 19:45:41 | <sm> | study an existing one, do what they did :) |
| 19:45:45 | <geekosaur> | that's almost as open-ended a question as eldritchcookie[m's |
| 19:46:09 | <namiroff> | What are the exaples of compilers build in Haskell? |
| 19:46:31 | <jade[m]> | haskell |
| 19:46:39 | <geekosaur> | agda |
| 19:47:40 | <sm> | idris |
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| 19:47:49 | <geekosaur> | there's an IRC bot which implements a (somewhat out of date by now, I think) C++ interpreter: https://github.com/Eelis/geordi |
| 19:47:55 | <yushyin> | purescript? |
| 19:48:11 | <sm> | yup. elm ? I googled but couldn't tell |
| 19:48:25 | <c_wraith> | elm was originally. I think they made it self-hosting |
| 19:48:30 | <sm> | many DSL/compiler-y things in the blockchain space |
| 19:49:21 | <sm> | @where scheme |
| 19:49:21 | <lambdabot> | https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours |
| 19:49:22 | <c_wraith> | The version of Elm on github is still in Haskell |
| 19:49:34 | <[exa]> | namiroff: you write a datatype representation of the output language and a function that writes it to a file, then you make an IR datatype and a function that converts it to the output representation, and finally a parser that converts strings to the IR. (SW engineering spoiler: do it in this order, for the first compiler it's extremely easy to get carried away on parser and end up with unfinishable |
| 19:49:40 | <[exa]> | project) |
| 19:49:56 | <c_wraith> | So I guess Elm is still in Haskell. That looks current |
| 19:51:02 | <sm> | [exa]++ 👀 |
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| 19:51:34 | <[exa]> | as in, it's actually trivial and the spoiler is hard-learned. |
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| 19:52:08 | <sm> | [exa]: is that a transpiler in general ? and a compiler is a special case of that ? |
| 19:52:35 | <geekosaur> | a compiler transpiles to assembly language |
| 19:52:47 | <sm> | right |
| 19:53:09 | <[exa]> | (now let's discuss if javascript is a good assembly :D ) |
| 19:53:19 | [exa] | hides |
| 19:53:31 | <geekosaur> | I thought wasm was the practical answer to that question |
| 19:53:37 | Hecate | falls on the ground, foaming at the mouth |
| 19:53:41 | <sm> | nowadays that would be llvm or wasm wouldn't it |
| 19:54:39 | <[exa]> | I can't say if compilers and transpilers are distinguishable, except with transpiler you kinda expect to use another (com/trans)piler after it |
| 19:55:02 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure they are any more |
| 19:55:29 | <geekosaur> | I mean, ghc actually compiles to cmm, then compiles that to asm. is it a compiler or a transpiler? |
| 19:55:57 | <jade[m]> | it's wrapped up in one thing, so I'd call it a compiler |
| 19:56:01 | <geekosaur> | clang compiles to llvm IR. is it a compiler or a transpiler? |
| 19:56:11 | <jade[m]> | if you had to invoke both seperately it'd be a compiler |
| 19:56:15 | <[exa]> | a compilation of transpilers |
| 19:56:22 | <jade[m]> | haha |
| 19:57:45 | <[exa]> | ok now let's try to distinguish a compiler from an interpreter... what if the input language are just complex code-emmiting commands for the compiler? |
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| 19:58:55 | <geekosaur> | java muddied that question years ago |
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| 19:59:29 | <sm> | interpreter doesn't save its work, it always starts anew. Compilers save (cache) artifacts which can be reused next time |
| 19:59:45 | <jade[m]> | I think my definitions go as follows: |
| 19:59:45 | <jade[m]> | - Compiler: one command from input -> machine code |
| 19:59:45 | <jade[m]> | - Transpiler: one command from input -> other input that can be used by another compiler |
| 19:59:45 | <jade[m]> | - Interpreter: one command from input -> output |
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| 19:59:58 | <jade[m]> | (feel free to disagree) |
| 20:00:00 | <c_wraith> | sm: so cpython is a compiler, leaving all those .pyc files behind? |
| 20:00:18 | <sm> | a little bit.. c for compiled! |
| 20:00:26 | <ncf> | topical tweet https://twitter.com/rob_rix/status/1277770572123058176 |
| 20:01:35 | <ncf> | "*whispers* there’s no such thing as marshalling, unmarshalling, encoding, decoding, compilation, transpilation, or optimization, it’s all just interpretation under 0 or more futamura projections" |
| 20:02:38 | <geekosaur> | if you really want to muddy the waters, remember that x86_64 asm is itself interpreted(? or is it JIT, or ???) into microcode |
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| 20:02:54 | <[exa]> | geekosaur++ |
| 20:03:05 | <geekosaur> | we're imo well past the point where "it's what I point at when I say it" |
| 20:04:11 | <jade[m]> | machine code is also interpreted by the cpu |
| 20:04:12 | <jade[m]> | so nothing is truly compiled |
| 20:05:06 | <geekosaur> | and it's not clear that you can even say "compiled means it runs directly on hardware": see the reduceron |
| 20:05:25 | <[exa]> | in other news, irssi is an interactive message-to-tcp compiler |
| 20:05:37 | <geekosaur> | or in the other direction, transmeta |
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| 20:06:50 | <sm> | of course our perception of input, output and what is even going on here is running in the quantum consciousness field |
| 20:07:22 | <jade[m]> | right, in the end it's all interpreted by the simulation anyway |
| 20:07:23 | <geekosaur> | or in the other other direction, rosetta |
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| 20:11:59 | <[exa]> | nice how it rhymes |
| 20:13:02 | <sm> | indeed.. more rhyming would make our lives a lot more manageable |
| 20:15:01 | <sm> | rhyming and/or more logical technical vocabulary generally. Maybe a sanskrit for computing |
| 20:16:45 | <sm> | you learn it, you think in it, you get insight, you become enlightened.. I guess expressive strongly-typed succinct languages like Haskell can work like that in a codebase |
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| 20:19:38 | <[exa]> | and it certainly sounds better to go study the vedas than to go try to find that bug again |
| 20:20:00 | <sm> | heck yes you're right about that |
| 20:20:57 | <sm> | I'm avoiding a php bug right now, perfect time to evolve consciousness |
| 20:21:32 | <[exa]> | php is good, if you don't <?php you can just write the vedas as you need and the code will compile |
| 20:21:45 | <[exa]> | OH I mean interpret |
| 20:22:18 | <sm> | well something may happen |
| 20:22:31 | <[exa]> | ok nvm I'm off for today, enjoy here :] |
| 20:22:43 | <sm> | o/ |
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