Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-05-04 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:03:03 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
00:04:57 → mud joins (~mud@user/kadoban)
00:05:28 × mud quits (~mud@user/kadoban) (Client Quit)
00:06:39 → foul_owl joins (~kerry@212.102.47.39)
00:09:57 → byte joins (~byte@user/byte)
00:16:01 × Lord_of_Life quits (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
00:16:58 → Lord_of_Life joins (~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915)
00:19:09 → kadoban joins (~kadoban@user/kadoban)
00:28:22 → merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
00:29:53 → mud joins (~mud@user/kadoban)
00:39:37 × tv quits (~tv@user/tv) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:43:30 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
00:51:54 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
00:51:54 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
00:51:54 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
00:54:42 × Wstfgl0 quits (~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d) (Remote host closed the connection)
00:55:11 → tv joins (~tv@user/tv)
00:55:17 → Wstfgl0 joins (~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d)
00:56:28 × merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:59:05 → johnw joins (~johnw@76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net)
01:01:44 × bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:02:14 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
01:04:40 → bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
01:05:30 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
01:10:19 × albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:10:49 × ix quits (~ix@2a02:8012:281f:0:d65d:64ff:fe52:5efe) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
01:15:08 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:16:26 → albet70 joins (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
01:21:49 → ham joins (~ham@user/ham)
01:23:06 → nate2 joins (~nate@98.45.169.16)
01:24:03 → ix joins (~ix@2a02:8012:281f:0:d65d:64ff:fe52:5efe)
01:26:08 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:27:48 × nate2 quits (~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:32:29 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
01:37:14 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
01:38:28 × ix quits (~ix@2a02:8012:281f:0:d65d:64ff:fe52:5efe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:39:34 → Ranhir joins (~Ranhir@157.97.53.139)
01:43:35 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:52:13 × segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
01:53:12 → merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
01:56:00 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
01:56:01 × srk quits (~sorki@user/srk) (Remote host closed the connection)
01:56:20 → srk joins (~sorki@user/srk)
01:59:28 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:59:48 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:00:51 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:03:11 × hsw quits (~hsw@2001-b030-2303-0104-0172-0025-0012-0132.hinet-ip6.hinet.net) (Quit: Leaving)
02:09:09 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
02:09:20 → freeside_ joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
02:12:20 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
02:13:48 × [itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:15:28 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:16:53 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:18:54 → nate2 joins (~nate@98.45.169.16)
02:21:18 → segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
02:22:23 → [itchyjunk] joins (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470)
02:23:05 → justsomeguy joins (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy)
02:25:28 × segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:26:28 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:27:08 × merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:27:42 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
02:30:02 → Square2 joins (~Square4@user/square)
02:32:18 × Square quits (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
02:32:23 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
02:34:27 → czy joins (~user@host-140-24.ilcub310.champaign.il.us.clients.pavlovmedia.net)
02:36:28 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:48:05 × td_ quits (~td@i53870903.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:48:17 → finn_elija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
02:48:17 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
02:48:17 finn_elija is now known as FinnElija
02:50:05 → td_ joins (~td@i5387092F.versanet.de)
02:51:59 × [itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:00:40 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:01:09 × jero98772 quits (~jero98772@2800:484:1d84:9000::2) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:08:04 × rekahsoft quits (~rekahsoft@bras-base-orllon1122w-grc-04-174-88-193-177.dsl.bell.ca) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:09:44 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:10:14 → FinnElija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
03:19:08 × nate2 quits (~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:19:12 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
03:21:08 × waleee quits (~waleee@h-176-10-137-138.NA.cust.bahnhof.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:23:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
03:24:06 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:31:09 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:31:46 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
03:36:08 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:43:02 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
03:47:32 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
03:49:18 × phma quits (~phma@2001:5b0:215a:d888:a541:81b6:7d20:c3e7) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
03:49:55 → phma joins (phma@2001:5b0:210d:1eb8:9116:d5ea:678f:f4e5)
03:50:57 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
03:57:08 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
03:57:24 × merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:07:16 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
04:09:22 → _ht joins (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl)
04:15:03 → segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
04:16:28 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:22:28 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
04:24:05 × glguy quits (~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
04:24:26 → glguy_ joins (~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy)
04:24:27 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
04:27:00 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:27:59 × L29Ah quits (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
04:29:28 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:43:44 → gmg joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
04:48:25 × TheCoffeMaker quits (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:48:47 → azimut joins (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
04:53:28 × opticblast quits (~Thunderbi@172.58.87.122) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
04:54:04 → merijn joins (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net)
04:59:14 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
04:59:36 → paulpaul1076 joins (~textual@95-29-5-210.broadband.corbina.ru)
05:03:28 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:10:39 × Me-me quits (~Me-me@user/me-me) (Remote host closed the connection)
05:10:44 × Wstfgl0 quits (~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d) (Excess Flood)
05:12:50 → takuan joins (~takuan@178-116-218-225.access.telenet.be)
05:13:30 → harveypwca joins (~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67)
05:14:40 × justsomeguy quits (~justsomeg@user/justsomeguy) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
05:15:20 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:15:49 ← Aarkon[m] parts (~aarkonmat@2001:470:69fc:105::3:52fa) ()
05:16:06 → Wstfgl0 joins (~Me-me@user/me-me)
05:16:22 → Me-me joins (~me-me@2602:ff16:3:0:1:dc:beef:d00d)
05:16:38 → FinnElija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
05:22:25 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
05:23:06 → TheCoffeMaker joins (~TheCoffeM@user/thecoffemaker)
05:24:03 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
05:25:35 × ddellacosta quits (~ddellacos@143.244.47.100) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
05:27:26 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
05:28:08 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:28:08 × merijn quits (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:32:10 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
05:35:08 × segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:37:23 × _ht quits (~Thunderbi@28-52-174-82.ftth.glasoperator.nl) (Quit: _ht)
05:38:35 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com)
05:38:35 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@207-153-38-140.fttp.usinternet.com) (Changing host)
05:38:35 → wroathe joins (~wroathe@user/wroathe)
05:40:23 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
05:41:00 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
05:43:46 → segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
05:44:25 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:47:59 peutri_ is now known as peutri
05:48:25 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:53:54 → jargon joins (~jargon@184.101.78.160)
05:55:48 → Alex_test_ joins (~al_test@178.34.150.15)
05:56:02 × finnekit quits (~finnekit@fsf/member/finnekit) (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
05:56:22 → finnekit joins (~finnekit@fsf/member/finnekit)
05:57:20 × Alex_test quits (~al_test@178.34.150.15) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
06:03:15 → gnalzo joins (~gnalzo@2a01:e0a:498:fd50:fcc6:bb5d:489a:ce8c)
06:05:12 × chomwitt quits (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a1f:b500:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:06:50 → michalz joins (~michalz@185.246.207.203)
06:07:07 → chomwitt joins (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a1f:b500:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)
06:08:43 × chomwitt quits (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a1f:b500:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1) (Remote host closed the connection)
06:10:39 → chomwitt joins (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a1f:b500:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)
06:10:45 → ddellacosta joins (~ddellacos@146.70.185.135)
06:16:13 → freeside joins (~mengwong@122.11.248.245)
06:16:31 → adude__ joins (~Square@user/square)
06:19:09 × gentauro quits (~gentauro@user/gentauro) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:19:51 × Square2 quits (~Square4@user/square) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
06:21:38 → whatsupdoc joins (uid509081@id-509081.hampstead.irccloud.com)
06:24:48 → gentauro joins (~gentauro@user/gentauro)
06:24:52 → merijn joins (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl)
06:30:25 × merijn quits (~merijn@c-001-001-003.client.esciencecenter.eduvpn.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:31:21 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
06:32:45 × paulpaul1076 quits (~textual@95-29-5-210.broadband.corbina.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:33:40 → aeroplane joins (~user@user/aeroplane)
06:34:05 × segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:35:47 → tromp joins (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
06:35:53 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
06:37:46 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
06:40:41 × aeroplane quits (~user@user/aeroplane) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
06:40:55 → aeroplane joins (~user@user/aeroplane)
06:42:40 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
06:42:55 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
06:47:36 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
06:49:21 → acidjnk joins (~acidjnk@p200300d6e7072f25c4af7c152bd52e2c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
06:50:17 → mncheck joins (~mncheck@193.224.205.254)
06:53:22 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
06:58:05 × wiosna quits (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
07:02:48 × adude__ quits (~Square@user/square) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
07:06:06 → mmhat joins (~mmh@p200300f1c714ef60ee086bfffe095315.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
07:06:11 → zeenk joins (~zeenk@2a02:2f04:a00c:5f00::7fe)
07:07:40 → lortabac joins (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:d5ec:ab52:cc79:2c58)
07:10:23 → mc47 joins (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47)
07:12:21 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
07:16:11 → nate2 joins (~nate@98.45.169.16)
07:16:41 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
07:21:16 × nate2 quits (~nate@98.45.169.16) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
07:26:32 × chiselfuse quits (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
07:27:28 → chiselfuse joins (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
07:29:15 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
07:29:35 × eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:a837:710:f5f5:490) (Remote host closed the connection)
07:33:28 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
07:35:04 → gurkenglas joins (~gurkengla@dynamic-046-114-177-198.46.114.pool.telefonica.de)
07:47:04 → kuribas joins (~user@ip-188-118-57-242.reverse.destiny.be)
07:47:13 × rembo10 quits (~rembo10@main.remulis.com) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
07:49:25 → rembo10 joins (~rembo10@main.remulis.com)
07:51:05 × chiselfuse quits (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × azimut quits (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × gmg quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × bitdex quits (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × jpds quits (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × marinelli quits (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × stiell_ quits (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × ec quits (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × chexum quits (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum) (*.net *.split)
07:51:05 × pharonix71 quits (~pharonix7@user/pharonix71) (*.net *.split)
07:52:07 → chiselfuse joins (~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse)
07:52:07 → FinnElija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
07:52:07 → azimut joins (~azimut@gateway/tor-sasl/azimut)
07:52:07 → gmg joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
07:52:07 → bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
07:52:07 → califax joins (~califax@user/califx)
07:52:07 → jpds joins (~jpds@gateway/tor-sasl/jpds)
07:52:07 → marinelli joins (~weechat@gateway/tor-sasl/marinelli)
07:52:07 → stiell_ joins (~stiell@gateway/tor-sasl/stiell)
07:52:07 → ec joins (~ec@gateway/tor-sasl/ec)
07:52:07 → chexum joins (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/chexum)
07:52:07 → pharonix71 joins (~pharonix7@user/pharonix71)
07:52:34 × Sgeo quits (~Sgeo@user/sgeo) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
07:55:25 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
07:55:50 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d198-53-218-113.abhsia.telus.net)
07:59:23 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@211.190.65.81.rev.sfr.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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12:33:51 <kaol> I've been thinking about the order of function composition. I think the usual order is an answer to the question "what's the value of this" and flipping it around makes the question be "how does this work". For IO (or other monadic code) you want to answer the latter one and the value is often uninteresting in itself.
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12:34:57 <kaol> If I see function compositions start with "ExceptT ." then that is the most useful thing to know to understand its value.
12:36:00 <ncf> something something programs vs coprograms
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12:39:27 <ski> i think ordering in `f(x)' comes from (a) typically `x' may be a larger expression than `f', and it's nicer to read the shorter one first (cf. `traverse' vs. `for') (commonly `f' is just a single identifier, even bound at top-level); and (b) in a definition, it's nice to have the name of the defined thing come first, before formal parameters (patterns), and the definiens
12:39:57 <ski> (also why i think `class Eq a => Ord a where ...' ought to have been `class Ord a <= Eq a where ...')
12:40:39 <ski> (then composition ordering is a consequence of function application ordering)
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12:45:37 <vulfe> someone at some indeterminate point in history decided that math ought to secretly be read right to left
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12:49:26 ski sometimes experiments a bit with writing `f : A <- B', rather than `f : B -> A'
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12:50:00 <ski> vulfe : i don't think people really think of it like that
12:50:33 <vulfe> I feel like if you do enough category theory you sort of start to think that way, but I agree in general :P
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12:50:57 <ski> perhaps "from inside, to out". but you could just as well read it in the opposite direction, too, although perhaps that'll commonly feel slightly less natural, at least if one's not used to it
12:51:46 <ski> (compare with how proofs are often constructed "backwards" (and then some people write it "forwards", while some other may leave it in the "backwards" direction))
12:52:05 <vulfe> I mostly meant to assert that the reason we use f(x) or f x in programming is because the notation originated that way in mathematics (this goes all the way back to like Bernoulli and Euler)
12:52:40 ncf . o O ( let f, g : A <- B -> C be a span... )
12:52:46 ski . o O ( "Epsilon-Delta Limits Tutorial" <https://www.vex.net/~trebla/homework/epsilon-delta.html> )
12:53:28 <ski> .. not two spans ?
12:53:30 <vulfe> although I was helping someone with a diagram chase in a functional programming / category theory textbook last evening and they do indeed use the notation `f: A <- B`
12:53:45 <ncf> a span of two arrows
12:53:54 <ski> "Algebra of Programming" by Richard Bird,Oege de Moor ?
12:53:59 <vulfe> the very one
12:54:04 ski grins
12:54:14 <vulfe> to be clear, I think the notation in that book is heinous
12:54:31 <vulfe> but not because they use `f: A <- B` ;)
12:55:01 <ski> ncf : guess i'd write `(f,g) : ...'. or write the names above/below the arrows
12:55:19 <vulfe> I would do the same as ski
12:55:39 <vulfe> (it is quite literally an ordered pair after all)
12:56:23 ski also can never recall which is which of "span" and "cospan"
12:56:31 <ski> (or "meet" and "join", for that matter)
12:57:03 <vulfe> join is like union, so it gets the `v` (and meet is like intersection and so on)
12:57:18 <vulfe> maybe that's not helpful if you aren't a mathematician
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12:58:12 <vulfe> to be fair, the choice of which gets to be called 'span' and which 'cospan' feels quite arbitrary
13:01:21 <ski> vulfe : yea, i know that. but i can never recall which is like union and which is like intersection
13:01:54 <ski> (the names don't give me any clue)
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13:02:09 <vulfe> ski: I was about to appeal to some kind of English comparison and then I realized that both words are really quite similar in their literal meaning
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13:03:00 <ski> (i also don't really have a firm preference regards drawing arrows upwards and drawing them downwards)
13:04:08 <vulfe> if you draw a large enough diagram, you don't get to have a preference any more
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13:05:48 ncf remembers "span" because of monads in the bicategory of spans
13:06:30 ncf also gets meets and joins mixed up about 100% of the time
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13:07:19 <vulfe> (I remember spans because the introduction of categories of cospans seems very rare)
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13:10:53 <vulfe> do people actually use monads in spans to define internal categories in Haskell or something?
13:11:05 <vulfe> that doesn't sound like a totally useless idea at the very least :P
13:11:18 <ncf> certainly not in haskell
13:11:41 <ncf> (can you even define general monads-in-a-bicategory in haskell? or bicategories for that matter?)
13:11:57 <vulfe> (good question)
13:12:40 <vulfe> (also, it would be much easier to specify an internal category directly)
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13:32:36 × ormaaj quits (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × nomagno quits (~nomagno@2001:470:69fc:105::c1f0) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × peddie quits (~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × ericson2314 quits (~ericson23@2001:470:69fc:105::70c) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × jmcantrell quits (~jmcantrel@user/jmcantrell) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × paulapatience quits (~paulapati@2001:470:69fc:105::16a4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × zebrag[m] quits (~inkbottle@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × vladan[m] quits (~vladanmat@2001:470:69fc:105::2:24df) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × smichel17[m] quits (~smichel17@2001:470:69fc:105::2d32) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × Deide quits (~deide@user/deide) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × fgaz quits (~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × fendor[m] quits (~fendormat@2001:470:69fc:105::fcbd) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × SeanKing[m] quits (~seankingm@2001:470:69fc:105::cf9c) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × Null_A[m] quits (~jasonjckn@2001:470:69fc:105::bb85) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × alexfmpe[m] quits (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × hussam quits (~hussam@user/hussam) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × VarikValefor[m] quits (~varikvale@2001:470:69fc:105::a5d) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:36 × foghorn quits (~foghorn@user/foghorn) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × bgamari[m] quits (~bgamari@2001:470:69fc:105::c7b9) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × jean-paul[m] quits (~jean-paul@2001:470:69fc:105::d1ab) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × jade[m] quits (~hopelessn@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4043) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × eldritchcookie[m quits (~eldritchc@2001:470:69fc:105::2:d53c) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × mon_aaraj quits (~montchncs@2001:470:69fc:105::8e6b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × geekosaur[m] quits (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × Christoph[m] quits (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × shapr[m] quits (~shaprcofr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:d107) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × hsiktas[m] quits (~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × romes[m] quits (~romesmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1660) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × neohtetxyz[m] quits (~neohtetxy@2001:470:69fc:105::3:314c) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × hellwolf[m] quits (~hellwolfm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:6a4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × jneira[m] quits (~jneiramat@2001:470:69fc:105::d729) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:37 × akadude[m] quits (~akadudema@2001:470:69fc:105::2:5bf7) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × TheMatten[m] quits (~thematten@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ba1) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × ozkutuk[m] quits (~ozkutuk@2001:470:69fc:105::2:9af8) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × hunk[m] quits (~hunkmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::3:481b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × adziahel quits (~adziahelm@2001:470:69fc:105::b4d) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × vaibhavsagar[m] quits (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × jitrs[m] quits (~jitrsmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::3:400c) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × general_j[m] quits (~generaljm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:463b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × magnolia_mayhem[ quits (~ashinnvma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:e5ed) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × FurudeRika[m] quits (~chitandae@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6039) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × ajf___[m] quits (~ajfmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::2:5be3) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × ujjwalgupta[m] quits (~guptaujjw@2001:470:69fc:105::3:46b5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × tjnhxmzhmqgytuwt quits (~tjnhxmzhm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:70e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × maerwald[m] quits (~maerwaldm@2001:470:69fc:105::1ee) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × mmynsted[m] quits (~mmynstedm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:474b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × elvishjerricco quits (~elvishjer@2001:470:69fc:105::6172) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:38 × Artem[m] quits (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × chreekat quits (~chreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × calamaxes[m] quits (~calamaxes@2001:470:69fc:105::3:47b2) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × fcortesi quits (~fcortesi@2001:470:69fc:105::f3a9) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × mu[m] quits (~mumixnatu@2001:470:69fc:105::3:52c3) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × nicm[m] quits (~nicmollel@2001:470:69fc:105::1:feeb) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:39 × aaronv quits (~aaronv@user/aaronv) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × Clinton[m] quits (~clintonme@2001:470:69fc:105::2:31d4) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × luffy[m]1 quits (~luffyinte@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4cd5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × jzerebecki quits (~jzerebeck@2001:470:69fc:105::f90) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × polykernel[m] quits (~polykerne@user/polykernel) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × naine[m] quits (~naine-env@2001:470:69fc:105::3:2e57) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × kadoban quits (~kadoban@user/kadoban) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × teo quits (~teo@user/teo) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × denbrahe quits (~denbrahe@2001:470:69fc:105::19c0) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × ManofLetters[m] quits (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:40 × maralorn quits (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × ariady[m] quits (~riadymatr@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4dc5) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × somerandomnick[m quits (~somerando@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4f2e) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × cstml[m] quits (~cstmmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::2:f76f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × MasseR[m] quits (~masserauh@2001:470:69fc:105::3bd) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × sm quits (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × JensPetersen[m] quits (~juhp@2001:470:69fc:105::6e9) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:41 × MangoIV[m] quits (~mangoivma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:8417) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:42 × Matthew|m quits (~arathorn@2001:470:69fc:105::1f) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:42 × aavogt[m] quits (~aavogtmat@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4007) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:42 × joyfulmantis[m] quits (~joyfulman@2001:470:69fc:105::3:400a) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:43 × tiagsmm[m] quits (~tiagsmmma@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4002) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:32:43 × zfnmxt quits (~zfnmxt@user/zfnmxt) (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
13:33:23 × titibandit quits (~titibandi@user/titibandit) (Remote host closed the connection)
13:36:14 → CyberSoul joins (~CyberSoul@2405:201:680a:b174:f4e6:19f3:9e0:b94f)
13:36:43 → Guest45678 joins (~Guest4567@p200300cf072e68ea6b29732cbdb21e80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
13:37:48 → inversed joins (~inversed@bcdcac82.skybroadband.com)
13:38:26 → peddie joins (~peddie@2001:470:69fc:105::25d)
13:38:26 → paul_j joins (~user@2001:8b0:dea0:f3c9:cd47:c8b0:d6:5463)
13:40:57 → delYsid joins (~user@user/delYsid)
13:45:27 → agent-novichok joins (~Novichok@i59F46C67.versanet.de)
13:46:38 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
13:46:46 → jero98772 joins (~jero98772@2800:484:1d84:9000::2)
13:47:36 <merijn> man, what's up with binary's versionining?
13:47:40 → fgaz joins (~fgaz@2001:470:69fc:105::842)
13:47:40 → ericson2314 joins (~ericson23@2001:470:69fc:105::70c)
13:47:40 → maralorn joins (~maralorn@2001:470:69fc:105::251)
13:47:40 → Null_A[m] joins (~jasonjckn@2001:470:69fc:105::bb85)
13:47:40 → sm joins (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm)
13:47:40 → Christoph[m] joins (~hpotsirhc@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff8)
13:47:40 → nomagno joins (~nomagno@2001:470:69fc:105::c1f0)
13:47:40 → Deide joins (~deide@user/deide)
13:47:40 → smichel17[m] joins (~smichel17@2001:470:69fc:105::2d32)
13:47:41 → ManofLetters[m] joins (~manoflett@2001:470:69fc:105::3be)
13:47:41 → fendor[m] joins (~fendormat@2001:470:69fc:105::fcbd)
13:47:41 → akadude[m] joins (~akadudema@2001:470:69fc:105::2:5bf7)
13:47:41 → jmcantrell joins (~jmcantrel@user/jmcantrell)
13:47:41 → romes[m] joins (~romesmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:1660)
13:47:53 → TheMatten[m] joins (~thematten@2001:470:69fc:105::1:5ba1)
13:47:55 → JensPetersen[m] joins (~juhp@2001:470:69fc:105::6e9)
13:47:56 → ormaaj joins (~ormaaj@user/ormaaj)
13:47:56 → Guillaum[m] joins (~guiboumat@2001:470:69fc:105::1:72ac)
13:47:56 → chreekat joins (~chreekat@2001:470:69fc:105::16b5)
13:47:56 → jneira[m] joins (~jneiramat@2001:470:69fc:105::d729)
13:47:56 → alexfmpe[m] joins (~alexfmpem@2001:470:69fc:105::38ba)
13:47:56 → Matthew|m joins (~arathorn@2001:470:69fc:105::1f)
13:48:09 → Clinton[m] joins (~clintonme@2001:470:69fc:105::2:31d4)
13:48:10 → vladan[m] joins (~vladanmat@2001:470:69fc:105::2:24df)
13:48:10 → VarikValefor[m] joins (~varikvale@2001:470:69fc:105::a5d)
13:48:10 → jean-paul[m] joins (~jean-paul@2001:470:69fc:105::d1ab)
13:48:10 → SeanKing[m] joins (~seankingm@2001:470:69fc:105::cf9c)
13:48:10 → bgamari[m] joins (~bgamari@2001:470:69fc:105::c7b9)
13:48:10 → hussam joins (~hussam@user/hussam)
13:48:10 → zebrag[m] joins (~inkbottle@2001:470:69fc:105::2ff5)
13:48:10 → paulapatience joins (~paulapati@2001:470:69fc:105::16a4)
13:48:10 → mon_aaraj joins (~montchncs@2001:470:69fc:105::8e6b)
13:48:11 → tjnhxmzhmqgytuwt joins (~tjnhxmzhm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:70e)
13:48:11 → eldritchcookie[m joins (~eldritchc@2001:470:69fc:105::2:d53c)
13:48:11 <merijn> two deprecated "new" versions that were rereleased as older versions?
13:48:11 → FurudeRika[m] joins (~chitandae@2001:470:69fc:105::1:6039)
13:48:11 → general_j[m] joins (~generaljm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:463b)
13:48:11 → ozkutuk[m] joins (~ozkutuk@2001:470:69fc:105::2:9af8)
13:48:11 → maerwald[m] joins (~maerwaldm@2001:470:69fc:105::1ee)
13:48:12 → jade[m]1 joins (~hopelessn@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4043)
13:48:12 → foghorn joins (~foghorn@user/foghorn)
13:48:24 → elvishjerricco joins (~elvishjer@2001:470:69fc:105::6172)
13:48:24 → ujjwalgupta[m] joins (~guptaujjw@2001:470:69fc:105::3:46b5)
13:48:25 → shapr[m] joins (~shaprcofr@2001:470:69fc:105::2:d107)
13:48:25 → naine[m] joins (~naine-env@2001:470:69fc:105::3:2e57)
13:48:38 → ajf___[m] joins (~ajfmatrix@2001:470:69fc:105::2:5be3)
13:48:38 → teo joins (~teo@user/teo)
13:48:38 → mmynsted[m] joins (~mmynstedm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:474b)
13:48:38 → MangoIV[m] joins (~mangoivma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:8417)
13:48:50 → calamaxes[m] joins (~calamaxes@2001:470:69fc:105::3:47b2)
13:48:54 → hellwolf[m] joins (~hellwolfm@2001:470:69fc:105::3:6a4)
13:48:54 → hunk[m] joins (~hunkmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::3:481b)
13:48:55 → vaibhavsagar[m] joins (~vaibhavsa@2001:470:69fc:105::ffe)
13:49:09 → aaronv joins (~aaronv@user/aaronv)
13:49:09 → hsiktas[m] joins (~hsiktasm]@2001:470:69fc:105::30d4)
13:49:09 → geekosaur[m] joins (~geekosaur@xmonad/geekosaur)
13:49:09 → magnolia_mayhem[ joins (~ashinnvma@2001:470:69fc:105::2:e5ed)
13:49:17 → alexherbo2 joins (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net)
13:49:21 → tiagsmm[m] joins (~tiagsmmma@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4002)
13:49:25 → joyfulmantis[m] joins (~joyfulman@2001:470:69fc:105::3:400a)
13:49:39 → aavogt[m] joins (~aavogtmat@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4007)
13:49:51 → jitrs[m] joins (~jitrsmatr@2001:470:69fc:105::3:400c)
13:49:51 → adziahel joins (~adziahelm@2001:470:69fc:105::b4d)
13:50:05 → fcortesi joins (~fcortesi@2001:470:69fc:105::f3a9)
13:50:09 → luffy[m] joins (~luffyinte@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4cd5)
13:50:10 → polykernel[m] joins (~polykerne@user/polykernel)
13:50:11 → jzerebecki joins (~jzerebeck@2001:470:69fc:105::f90)
13:50:11 → Artem[m] joins (~artemtype@2001:470:69fc:105::75b)
13:50:24 → ariady[m] joins (~riadymatr@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4dc5)
13:50:24 → zfnmxt joins (~zfnmxt@user/zfnmxt)
13:50:36 → neohtetxyz[m] joins (~neohtetxy@2001:470:69fc:105::3:314c)
13:50:36 → somerandomnick[m joins (~somerando@2001:470:69fc:105::3:4f2e)
13:50:36 → nicm[m] joins (~nicmollel@2001:470:69fc:105::1:feeb)
13:50:49 → cstml[m] joins (~cstmmatri@2001:470:69fc:105::2:f76f)
13:51:03 → mu[m] joins (~mumixnatu@2001:470:69fc:105::3:52c3)
13:51:03 → MasseR[m] joins (~masserauh@2001:470:69fc:105::3bd)
13:51:47 → denbrahe joins (~denbrahe@2001:470:69fc:105::19c0)
13:51:47 → kadoban joins (~kadoban@user/kadoban)
13:53:06 <merijn> Unrelatedly: TIL packdeps has a CLI implementation besides the web RSS feed
13:54:47 → CiaoSen joins (~Jura@tmo-072-181.customers.d1-online.com)
13:57:13 → freeside joins (~mengwong@103.252.202.85)
14:01:02 × CiaoSen quits (~Jura@tmo-072-181.customers.d1-online.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
14:01:44 × gurkenglas quits (~gurkengla@dynamic-046-114-177-198.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
14:04:11 × freeside quits (~mengwong@103.252.202.85) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
14:05:34 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
14:09:14 → alexherbo2 joins (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net)
14:09:39 → segfaultfizzbuzz joins (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net)
14:19:40 × coot quits (~coot@2a02:a310:e241:1b00:ec1a:e9df:79ac:66ba) (Quit: coot)
14:25:44 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
14:27:31 → Sgeo joins (~Sgeo@user/sgeo)
14:30:15 → alexherbo2 joins (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net)
14:30:50 → wiosna joins (~karangura@c-73-93-95-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
14:34:24 → Tlsx joins (~rscastilh@189-82-108-215.user3p.veloxzone.com.br)
14:35:14 × Tlsx quits (~rscastilh@189-82-108-215.user3p.veloxzone.com.br) (Client Quit)
14:35:53 × vulfe quits (~vulfe@168.91.196.163) (Quit: Leaving...)
14:36:06 → phma_ joins (~phma@host-67-44-208-93.hnremote.net)
14:36:16 × phma quits (phma@2001:5b0:2144:6688:21df:1642:93f2:4b5) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
14:48:41 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
14:49:27 → eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:a837:710:f5f5:490)
14:49:59 × abrar quits (~abrar@static-108-2-152-54.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
14:51:17 → alexherbo2 joins (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net)
14:51:55 → shriekingnoise joins (~shrieking@186.137.175.87)
14:56:20 × albet70 quits (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8) (Remote host closed the connection)
14:57:01 × lortabac quits (~lortabac@2a01:e0a:541:b8f0:d5ec:ab52:cc79:2c58) (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
14:57:10 × vpan quits (~0@mail.elitnet.lt) (Quit: Leaving.)
14:57:22 → vulfe joins (~vulfe@75-28-176-196.lightspeed.evtnil.sbcglobal.net)
14:57:56 → waleee joins (~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:4000:5bf9:6515:c030:57b7)
15:00:29 → ham joins (~ham@user/ham)
15:02:27 → albet70 joins (~xxx@2400:8902::f03c:92ff:fe60:98d8)
15:04:43 → mbuf joins (~Shakthi@49.207.178.186)
15:07:34 × alexherbo2 quits (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
15:10:53 × CyberSoul quits (~CyberSoul@2405:201:680a:b174:f4e6:19f3:9e0:b94f) (Quit: Leaving)
15:12:18 → alexherbo2 joins (~alexherbo@2a02-842a-8180-4601-c824-f5b8-7854-87f7.rev.sfr.net)
15:13:50 × segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@23-93-74-212.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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16:41:00 <ddellacosta> This is re: haskell binary running in alpine docker container, image built with nix: /etc/localtime is pointing to /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/New_York, and $TZ and /etc/timezone are both "America/New_York". `date` returns the correct timestamp for this timezone. (All of this checked via `docker exec ... bash`.) Dumping System.Environment.getEnv "TZ" in logs gives me "America/New_York". However,
16:41:02 <ddellacosta> the time library doesn't seem to pick this up; Data.Time.LocalTime.getCurrentTimeZone gives me "America," timeZoneOffsetString is "+0000". Am I forgetting something?
16:41:54 <ddellacosta> it almost seems like it's parsing the timezone incorrectly, given that it's not just UTC
16:44:18 <ddellacosta> doesn't seem like the time code works that way though, so, I dunno
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16:58:58 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i think (?) programming language expressions are always trees, as in abstract syntax trees. is this true of mathematics as well? that is to say, if i open up any math paper, can i always represent the statements in the paper with an AST?
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17:01:08 <segfaultfizzbuzz> in parallel i am also not sure what the alternative would be to an AST,... maybe general natural language?
17:02:22 <geekosaur> graphs come to mind
17:02:57 <geekosaur> (that is, general connections between nodes, not just a straightforward branching tree or even simple loops)
17:03:44 <geekosaur> many (not all) math papers describe proofs, though, and those should reduce to ASTs via Curry-Howard I think
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17:17:13 <monochrom> Linguists already figured out turning sentences into trees. All languages.
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17:19:05 <monochrom> (BTW you would be surprised how more linguists than programmers understand CFGs and even continuations.)
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17:25:50 <monochrom> Every time I read a cool blog featured in HWN I go "this would be great for an assignment for my students!"
17:26:26 <monochrom> One second later "oh no, its solution is already in public, this can't go into an assignment".
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17:27:39 <monochrom> (BTW there is some recent code I am not pushing to github for now because of this.)
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17:28:00 <monochrom> (I wrote the code and solved a problem. Now I want to make it an assignment.)
17:28:22 <monochrom> Although, 10 seconds later "oh, but this would be great on an exam!"
17:29:04 <monochrom> (assuming in-person invigilated exam of course. won't work if we go back to online stay-home schooling...)
17:29:06 <jade[m]1> what level are the courses you teach? (beginner, intermediate, ...)
17:29:45 <monochrom> That's hard to quantify. But it's 3rd year in terms of overall CS. But it's the 1st time most students see FP at all.
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17:30:17 <jade[m]1> ah thank you, that gives some insight!
17:31:08 <monochrom> So, fair to consider them beginners when you show them "myreverse (x:xs) = myreverse xs ++ [x]"
17:31:43 <monochrom> But supposedly (yeah right I wish) once they can read that they should see it's quadratic time and why.
17:32:42 <monochrom> But given the pandemic of using Python in 1st years therefore students have this delusion that one line of code takes O(1) time, fat chance.
17:32:54 <jade[m]1> mhm yeah
17:33:06 <jade[m]1> at what point do you introduce folds
17:33:36 <jade[m]1> foldl (flip (:)) [] took me a pretty long time to understand initially
17:34:08 <monochrom> After lists, ADTs, and polymorphic types and functions.
17:34:36 <jade[m]1> mhm
17:34:54 <jade[m]1> I've never had 'formal' haskell education so this is really interesting
17:34:55 <monochrom> Actually this is what I did last summer: http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/CSCC24-2022-Summer/
17:35:24 <jade[m]1> thanks, I'll take a look
17:35:47 <monochrom> This summer I plan to move FAM near the end.
17:36:13 <jade[m]1> FAM?
17:36:51 <monochrom> Meanwhile, without FAM how do I do monadic parsing? Simple: import Prelude hiding ((>>=), <*>, fmap, etc etc) and have my own >>= etc hardtyped for the parser type.
17:36:57 <geekosaur> functor/applicative/monad
17:37:10 <jade[m]1> ahh yeah
17:37:47 <monochrom> Possibly an FAM lecture makes more sense and much less of an uphill after monadic parsing without saying "monadic".
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17:38:13 <monochrom> Because you can see currently the FAM lectures took forever. It is becoming a time sink.
17:38:44 <monochrom> Plus this course is not supposed to be an FP course. It is supposed to be a baby PLT that happens to use FP for various purposes.
17:39:08 <jade[m]1> monochrom: I think things like that are great for intuition. building your own functions for different types... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/90f97578fb16c7e15d1acb4a43d2b45d6a760e24>)
17:39:42 <jade[m]1> I wish more CS education was focused on intuition and discovering things yourself
17:39:57 <monochrom> Yeah I do that in the FAM lecture. It is still taking forever. :)
17:40:07 <jade[m]1> that's the downside ...
17:40:23 <monochrom> Hell, ideally s/CS //
17:41:50 <monochrom> But here is why, at least in public school systems such as K-12, STEM does not get that treatment. (Ironically, the arts do, so it is not like the educators didn't know.)
17:42:06 <probie> That [focused on intuition...] takes an unpredictable amount of time which means it works pretty well for private tutoring, but poorly for a class composed of many individuals and with a fixed schedule
17:42:30 <jade[m]1> yep
17:42:34 <monochrom> (Right? Your primary school English classes are all about having fun with storytelling. And the math classes are all about dry rote.)
17:42:46 <jade[m]1> I learned 95% of the things I'm interested in from the internet
17:42:55 <jade[m]1> such as most of math and cs that I know
17:43:01 <monochrom> It is because the public school systems are controlled by biased arts people.
17:43:21 <jade[m]1> (praise goes out to 3B1B, Mathologer and Michael Penn)
17:43:23 <monochrom> Well, they love their own subjects so they do everything to make them lovable for all.
17:44:44 <jade[m]1> mhm
17:45:12 <monochrom> And unfairly they then go "convince me why it is useful to include math" (they never ask that about their own beloved subjects, I mean come on, did they ask "convince me why it's useful to include music too?")
17:45:47 <monochrom> Therefore music and English are taught because they are fun and beauty therefore the fun and beauty are emphasized.
17:46:03 <probie> On the "upside", if you are a (K-12) maths teacher, you're under no obligation to make the class fun
17:46:13 <monochrom> Math is taught for utitlity therefore it's a dry utility. BTW utility implies dry rote, of course.
17:46:17 <jade[m]1> I think part of the problem is also unmotivated teachers, the concept of grades and in general the stress that school brings with it for the students
17:46:33 <probie> but I feel like this is well off-topic for #haskell, perhaps it should move to another channel?
17:46:37 <jade[m]1> I sincerely believe we can make people love learning if it were done right
17:47:20 <monochrom> Imagine if music classes were about memorizing harmonic progressions. That's what happened to math classes.
17:47:54 <jade[m]1> that's a great analogy haha
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17:54:29 <monochrom> OK so back to the cool haskell blogs, the one that started what I said about "I want to use this for assignment oh wait I can't" is the FFT one.
17:54:58 <monochrom> It's on today's HWN but here it is: https://gist.github.com/VictorTaelin/5776ede998d0039ad1cc9b12fd96811c/4499146ec3a85e55072c50606ef2db06ff5a9b23
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18:04:48 <jade[m]1> That's really interesting and made me think a bit about how I reason about code
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18:14:51 <tomsmeding> it's cute
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18:17:58 <probie> I'm a fan of the use of balanced ternary. I feel a bit silly having never thought about using it when I need an inductive definition of the integers with reasonable performance
18:18:38 <jade[m]1> I've seen it used somewhere before but I can't remember where
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18:19:09 <jade[m]1> I think it was something purely mathematical and it was a very clever solution to a problem
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18:42:07 <ncf> what's HWN?
18:42:50 <geekosaur> haskell weekly news?
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18:43:58 <geekosaur> https://haskellweekly.news/issue/366.html third item seems to be the one under discussion
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18:54:52 <sm> and here is the HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35801293
18:55:12 <sm> oops you said third. I can't count :)
18:55:33 <geekosaur> the FFT one, right? that was third
18:55:46 <geekosaur> not saying the others weren't worthy of note 🙂
18:56:10 <sm> anyway, that HN link is the latest Haskell discussion there, a pretty good one
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19:00:55 <akshitkr> k
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19:56:31 <ddellacosta> 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
19:56:37 <ddellacosta> whoops, guess that keys getting changed
19:59:30 <Hecate> ddellacosta: I must commend you on your taste of pass keys, although a little bit more special characters sprinkled on it like salt & pepper would hav been perfect :)
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20:01:22 <ddellacosta> Hecate: lol I can't claim responsibility, that was actually an old-school GH token, I should probably have bumped it to be a fine-grained access one a while ago, so this is just as well
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20:03:25 <Hecate> 👍
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21:11:38 <hpc> this is why i don't make any of my passwords look like passwords
21:11:44 <hpc> whoops, i have to change that key now too :P
21:12:13 <monochrom> haha
21:12:54 <monochrom> Someone should ask chatgpt "can chatgpt generate good passwords?"
21:13:15 <hpc> the answer is "yes! haskell can do that"
21:13:25 <monochrom> haha that's a great answer
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21:14:55 <jade[m]1> inspired by a recent tom scott pidcast episode:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/d16f95aee37f1f970d5b3db0e517d5bdf6a02a67>)
21:15:23 <jade[m]1> * inspired by a recent tom scott podcast episode:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/5ce0a8f920f77d5ab262d32aa9fa56dba031253d>)
21:16:16 <delYsid> /kick jade[m]1
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21:16:48 <jade[m]1> hm.
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21:17:33 <monochrom> In Haskell, you can simplify "() -> X" to "X".
21:18:17 <jade[m]1> yep, I know
21:18:44 <jade[m]1> the joke is that it's a function
21:20:10 <monochrom> Oh haha
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22:16:06 <ski> jade[m]1 : "and then noticing the pattern yourself" -- related to why i think the first (non-paper, general) monad tutorial, "What the hell are Monads??" by Noel Winstanley in 1999-02 at <https://web.archive.org/web/19991018214519/http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~nww/Monad.html> may still be one of the best (brief) monad tutorials, in that it focuses on the patterns / boiler-plate code that are abstracted
22:18:40 <ski> (also, i think the annoyance was due to you editing a Matrix message, which simply comes out as resending the message as a (mostly) duplicate one, on IRC (and also possibly you using line breaks in the message, causing it to be hosted at a link that one needs to go look up in a browser, rather than see it directly in the channel))
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22:23:43 <geekosaur> and doesn't even markdown-format the result
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22:48:10 <akshitkr> im bored of haskell from first principles
22:48:12 <akshitkr> what do
22:48:23 <akshitkr> (find it too slow paced)
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22:49:06 <akshitkr> and i already know the basics of fp/programming in general, been coding in c/python/lisp for a few years
22:49:30 <akshitkr> i just wanna get my hands dirty with haskell but ive not been able to find a book/guide which'd let me do exactly that
22:53:14 <geekosaur> https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ ?
22:53:17 <ski> did you try another book ?
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22:53:52 <akshitkr> ive been told that realwordhaskell is ancient
22:54:19 <geekosaur> ancient does not mean useless
22:54:30 <yushyin> maybe try the one by graham hutton
22:54:37 <akshitkr> ski i tried lyah
22:54:57 <akshitkr> @geekosaur true
22:54:57 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:55:01 <ski> @where wikibook
22:55:01 <lambdabot> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell
22:55:13 <ski> might perhaps be worth a glance
22:55:42 <akshitkr> makes sense
22:55:59 <ski> @where PIH
22:55:59 <lambdabot> "Programming in Haskell" by Graham Hutton in 2007-01-15,2016-09-01 at <http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html>
22:56:07 <ski> (is the Hutton one)
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22:57:34 <akshitkr> thanks
22:57:39 <akshitkr> oh well 2007
22:57:59 <geekosaur> look past the comma
22:58:02 <akshitkr> well im just not sure if year of it being written makes a difference
22:58:07 <akshitkr> oh
22:58:11 <akshitkr> lol yeah
22:58:39 <geekosaur> I think the 2007 one is free online at this point
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23:01:37 <akshitkr> libgen zindabad
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23:36:05 <justsomeguy> akshitkr: I like "Get Programming With Haskell" by "Will Kurt".
23:36:30 <justsomeguy> But I also haven't learned Haskell yet ^-^;
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All times are in UTC on 2023-05-04.