Logs on 2023-05-06 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:12:37 | <pulgares> | Sex on Minecraft? Yes! Read all about it here! Mrs. Skilton shoves shit into Mariah Carey's pussy! Justin Bieber smokes pot and eats the corn and peanut-laden poo out of Mariah's cunt! Ohhhh yeaaahhh! https://justpaste.it/MariahCareyMinecraftALHotPocket |
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| 05:15:20 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
| 05:15:21 | litharge | sets mode +b *!~*@190.123.41.* |
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| 15:06:29 | <hammond> | nothing to do with haskell, but im porting a fun code i did in java into haskell, but it's starting to have as much moving parts as the java one. |
| 15:06:49 | <hammond> | haskell cannot eliminate this. |
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| 15:07:27 | <hpc> | it depends on what the moving parts are |
| 15:07:40 | <jade[m]1> | I think it all depends on how you do it |
| 15:07:42 | <hpc> | eventually, every program has to do what it does |
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| 15:08:17 | <hammond> | simple example, open coke can funtion has to be there before I can use the drink coke function. |
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| 15:10:37 | <geekosaur> | right, in that case the main thing haskell brings to the table is making it a compile time error to try to drink an unopened coke |
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| 15:10:48 | <geekosaur> | instead of runtime |
| 15:11:00 | <hpc> | you're getting ahead of yourselves |
| 15:11:05 | <hpc> | first you have to make sure it's a coke can |
| 15:11:12 | <hammond> | lol |
| 15:11:12 | <hpc> | if it's pepsi, you have to do something completely different :P |
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| 15:12:12 | <hammond> | that's OO, but data is kinda OO, if I return a coke can out of the fridge function. then it's ok. |
| 15:12:22 | <hammond> | anyway |
| 15:12:39 | <hammond> | im not simplifying by this abstraction. |
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| 15:18:28 | <jade[m]1> | oop is not data |
| 15:18:39 | <jade[m]1> | nearly every paradigm works with dara |
| 15:18:40 | <jade[m]1> | s/dara/data/ |
| 15:19:03 | <ski> | OO is codata |
| 15:19:21 | <hammond> | data is kinda like a class, but the functions are outside. |
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| 15:19:36 | <jade[m]1> | hm? |
| 15:20:06 | <ski> | pattern-matching functions correspond to (OO) classes / class constructors |
| 15:20:26 | <ski> | data constructor alternatives correspond to messages (interfaces of methods) |
| 15:21:02 | <ski> | where "corresponds to" means really "is dual to", or "corresponds to, under duality," |
| 15:22:03 | <hammond> | ski |
| 15:22:43 | <hammond> | so i can understand it, I can't use data to model real world objects in haskell? |
| 15:23:24 | <ski> | what are "real world objects" ? |
| 15:24:01 | <hammond> | like a car, a can of coke, a cup of java. then you have these actions on them, drink the coke. |
| 15:24:21 | <jade[m]1> | in haskell you have the data and the functions on it seperated |
| 15:24:26 | <hammond> | I assume with time we would model enough of these objects that we would have simulated the entire world in code. |
| 15:24:36 | <jade[m]1> | what? |
| 15:24:54 | <hammond> | i thought that was the object of oop. |
| 15:25:01 | <ski> | you can use both "FP" (really sum/variant types, possibly inductive/recursive, with pattern-matching), and "OO" (really product/record types, possibly coinductive/corecursive, although sadly not with message-dispatching ("copattern") syntax (Agda2 has that, though)) |
| 15:25:04 | <jade[m]1> | not really |
| 15:25:21 | <jade[m]1> | it's how it's sometimes introduced, but that notion of modelling the world misses the point of oop |
| 15:25:26 | <jade[m]1> | (imho) |
| 15:25:36 | <ski> | jade[m]1 : "in haskell you have the data and the functions on it seperated" -- except when you don't |
| 15:26:00 | <jade[m]1> | yeah |
| 15:26:18 | <hammond> | my problem is when you define a data in haskell, you can use it as an input to a function. |
| 15:26:36 | <jade[m]1> | like in structured programming as well? |
| 15:26:38 | <jade[m]1> | or in oop too? |
| 15:26:45 | <hammond> | i gues |
| 15:26:46 | <jade[m]1> | this isn't unique to haskell |
| 15:26:53 | <ski> | hammond : may i provide a (toy) example, to try to elucidate the ways in which i construe the terms "FP" vs. "OO" here, the duality between them ? |
| 15:28:22 | <hammond> | sure |
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| 15:29:38 | <ski> | consider a type of shapes, that we want to model. a shape can be of different alternative forms, like triangle, rectangle, circle, &c.; a shape also has certain properties, like perimeter, area, a rendering operation, &c. |
| 15:30:32 | <ski> | now, for each alternative form of a shape, we need to implement each property. we can imagine this schematically, in a rectangular table |
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| 15:31:02 | <ski> | say each column is a different alternative form, and each rom is a different property |
| 15:31:16 | <ski> | so, we need to have an implementation for each cell in this table |
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| 15:32:46 | <hammond> | sure |
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| 15:32:49 | <ski> | in the "OO" approach, we cut this table up into columns. each column becomes an OO class (with a given class constructor). the cells (one for each row), in the column becomes the implementations of the message, for that OO class (constructor) |
| 15:33:15 | <ski> | (in this view, we consider "class" and "class constructor" to be basically synonymous terms) |
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| 15:34:48 | <hammond> | i can see this. |
| 15:35:12 | <ski> | (the object type is basically a product/record type. a record where each field/message contains the method implementing it. typically these would be essentially functions) |
| 15:35:45 | <hammond> | for convience sake I assume. |
| 15:35:55 | <hammond> | member functions go with the member. |
| 15:35:58 | <ski> | in the "FP" approach, we insyead cut this table up into rows. each row becomes a pattern-matching function. the columns, being alternatives, are the data constructors of the `data' type (besically a sum/variant type). each row / pattern-matching function is defined by multiple defining equations, one clause/case for each alternative / data constructor |
| 15:36:38 | <jade[m]1> | declarativeness |
| 15:37:04 | <hammond> | and that's the difference huh. |
| 15:37:08 | <hammond> | pretty clever... |
| 15:37:20 | <ski> | now, in the "OO" approach, if you want to add another alternative, this is easy, you just define a brand new class (constructor). if you want to add another property, that is harder, since you now have to modify all the existing classes (and in practice, it may not suffice to just add another method, you may have to modify existing ones) |
| 15:37:46 | <hammond> | the transpose manuver. |
| 15:38:25 | <ski> | while, in the FP" approach, if you want to add another property, this is easy, you just define a brand new pattern-matching function. if you want to add another alternative, this is harder, since you now have to modify all the existing pattern-matching functions (and in practice, it may not suffice to just add another defining equation case/clause, you may have to modify existing ones) |
| 15:39:09 | <ski> | so, there's a trade-off here, in which approach you use. you'll have to decide whether it'll be more likely to want to add (or modify) alternatives, or add (or modify) properties |
| 15:40:15 | <ski> | also, on top of this, often there's also recursion in the data types, which complicates stuff (you may need to edit existing pattern-matching cases, to thread down some information down the recursive calls, so that you can access that information in the new case you added) |
| 15:40:31 | <Inst_> | hmmm, this is fascinating! |
| 15:40:36 | <Inst_> | @ isn't occupied on Hoogle |
| 15:40:44 | <Inst_> | what would be the unfortunate side effects if @ were defined as (,)? |
| 15:41:06 | <hammond> | fair enough ski. |
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| 15:41:33 | <ski> | also, pattern-matching typically allows you to match deeply, not just on the top data constructor .. and also match on "parallel" substructures, comparing their respective forms. i don't think something analogous tends to be usual (to the extent it even makes sense), for message-dispatching (defining an object, in terms of how it responds to messages) |
| 15:41:42 | <nshepperd2> | @ by itself is reserved syntax, isn't it |
| 15:41:42 | <Inst_> | someone was complaining a while back that Haskell had ugly syntax for dicts / map-like data structures |
| 15:41:48 | <ski> | Inst_ : `@' is a syntactic operator |
| 15:42:12 | <Inst_> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1104432909991026708/image.png?width=1210&height=408 |
| 15:42:46 | <geekosaur> | that doesn't actually surprise me, I was going to say it wasn't actually resrerved syntax as such |
| 15:42:48 | <geekosaur> | BUT |
| 15:43:05 | <Inst_> | i mean ! is used for bang patterns, but Vec etc have it as an access operator |
| 15:43:16 | <geekosaur> | foo@ in a pattern is an as-pattern, and @Bar in an expression is a type application |
| 15:43:22 | <ski> | hammond : there's also more differences, in typical practice (though you don't need to always follow them). OO tends to more often use mutable state, in place of having a method return a new version of the object (which means that the object type is recursive) |
| 15:43:27 | <Inst_> | ah, that's the obvious problem |
| 15:43:30 | <geekosaur> | so your operator would always need to have spaces on both sides |
| 15:43:40 | <Inst_> | it screws with type application usage |
| 15:43:42 | <hammond> | OK ok |
| 15:44:01 | <hammond> | i knew that was a losing thing.. |
| 15:44:04 | <ski> | hammond : anyway, it's easy to define `data Shape = MkShape { perimeter :: Double,area :: Double,render :: Canvas -> IO () }', doing OO, if you want to |
| 15:44:26 | <Inst_> | What I'm looking for is an alias for (,) which allows me to stuff a list with key-data pairs |
| 15:44:34 | <Inst_> | then use overloaded list to transform it into a map or something |
| 15:44:55 | <ski> | (if you want "serious" (implementation) inheritance (which classes can give you), aka "open recursion", then that's a little bit more involved to encode, in Haskell) |
| 15:44:56 | <hammond> | you've to agree that exceptions in haskell act like objects somewhat. |
| 15:45:15 | <ski> | also, no subtyping in Haskell |
| 15:45:15 | <hammond> | or structs |
| 15:45:21 | <hammond> | ok |
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| 15:45:37 | <ski> | O'Haskell/Timber had subtyping, both for sum types, and product types, though |
| 15:45:39 | <hammond> | ok subtype. |
| 15:45:55 | <geekosaur> | Inst_, considered (-->) ? |
| 15:46:03 | <geekosaur> | foo --> bar, baz --> gunk |
| 15:46:28 | <ski> | geekosaur : "and @Bar in an expression is a type application" -- yea, i really don't like it meaning something else in expressions, than in patterns |
| 15:46:32 | <geekosaur> | reads pretty obviously too |
| 15:46:36 | <Inst_> | geekosaur: someone was just complaining that Haskell was terrible for dict data types; I just want something as succinct as :, but unfortunately, : is already used to construct lists as a data constructor |
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| 15:47:00 | <Inst_> | # is a good candidate except that Kmett camped it with Lens |
| 15:47:24 | <geekosaur> | you could always go unicode… |
| 15:47:41 | <ski> | (and i recently thought of a concrete example of this problem : bidirectional pattern synonyms -- the same phrase is interpreted both as a pattern and as an expression) |
| 15:47:43 | <Inst_> | is ~ more obnoxious? |
| 15:48:05 | <Inst_> | that's generally used in patterns to denote laziness, at least it doesn't clash with type applications |
| 15:48:11 | <ski> | `~' is irrefutable patterns |
| 15:48:11 | <geekosaur> | ~ has a meaning in patterns so you would again need spaces to disambiguate |
| 15:48:29 | <Inst_> | i don't get why it'd matter for patterns |
| 15:48:53 | <ski> | (iirc, GHC uses the same parser for patterns and expressions) |
| 15:49:02 | <geekosaur> | maybe you don't care |
| 15:49:15 | <geekosaur> | but you might want to deconstruct what you construct |
| 15:49:20 | <Inst_> | the intended use of @ / ~ would be [ blah @ foo, bleh @ baz ] ... -> results in a list of tuples that can be converted to a keymap |
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| 15:49:38 | <ski> | Inst_ : how about `:=' ? |
| 15:49:44 | <Inst_> | geekosaur: ummm, (@) = (,), you can just go to the proper tuple variation |
| 15:49:55 | <Inst_> | so you deconstruct via tuples, not via the operator synonym |
| 15:50:11 | <Inst_> | ~ has the problem that it's used in the type language to denote type equivalence |
| 15:50:19 | <ski> | data Assoc k v = k := v |
| 15:50:41 | <Inst_> | also := is bad, because it's actually a data constructor |
| 15:50:47 | <c_wraith> | Inst_: ~ was chosen for type equivalence because it's already syntactically special in patterns |
| 15:51:12 | <ski> | what's the problem with it being a data constructor ? |
| 15:51:29 | <Inst_> | bleh, it doesn't matter, it's just idle thoughts |
| 15:51:34 | <Inst_> | also, := is already in use on Hoogle |
| 15:51:53 | <c_wraith> | basicallye very two-character operator is already in use. that's what modules are for |
| 15:51:54 | <ski> | yea, others have used the idea |
| 15:51:56 | <geekosaur> | do you care, though? |
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| 15:53:11 | <Inst_> | only valid operators not in use would be ~ and @ |
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| 15:54:14 | <c_wraith> | seeking global uniqueness for names tends to result in long names. |
| 15:54:42 | <Inst_> | also ski, Assoc k v? |
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| 15:56:04 | <c_wraith> | yeah, use a data type so you can have := syntax |
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| 15:58:24 | <c_wraith> | and then have your IsList instance define Item (Map k v) = Assoc k v |
| 15:58:41 | <c_wraith> | Like, IsList is already set up to support this case |
| 15:59:36 | <c_wraith> | ah, nevermind, Map already has an IsList instance |
| 15:59:54 | <c_wraith> | though its Item is a pair, so the syntax is a bit big |
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| 16:01:56 | <Inst_> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1104437874121789541/image.png?width=622&height=370 |
| 16:02:21 | <c_wraith> | enabled -XOverloadedLists |
| 16:02:46 | <c_wraith> | and then import Data.Map, and then tell ghci that the expression has the type Map Int Int |
| 16:03:24 | <Inst_> | i mean i know how to do it the "proper" way, i just want to avoid typing out (u,v) or (,) u v |
| 16:03:38 | <Inst_> | interestingly enough, I wonder if you can stuff |
| 16:03:57 | <Inst_> | a fixity annotation for a let-claused operator |
| 16:04:03 | <c_wraith> | you can |
| 16:04:04 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 16:04:26 | <geekosaur> | the Report didn't sayy either way, ghc went with "allow it" |
| 16:05:47 | <c_wraith> | the report didn't even accidentally imply it with the grammar? |
| 16:06:22 | <Inst_> | tbh, let expression-ing potentially cancerous operators is actually pretty cool |
| 16:06:42 | <Inst_> | even better, you can override operators from a wider namespace |
| 16:07:03 | <ski> | % M.fromList ["foo" := False,"bar" := True] M.! "bar" |
| 16:07:03 | <yahb2> | True |
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| 16:08:03 | <geekosaur> | c_wraith, my understanding is it's a gray area |
| 16:08:28 | <ski> | > let f (+) = 2 + 3 + 4 where infixr 5 + in f (-) |
| 16:08:29 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 16:08:29 | <lambdabot> | The fixity signature for ‘+’ lacks an accompanying binding |
| 16:08:29 | <lambdabot> | (The fixity signature must be given where ‘+’ is declared) |
| 16:09:01 | <c_wraith> | ski: heh. did you just make (:=) a pattern synonym? |
| 16:09:11 | ski | whistles innocently |
| 16:10:43 | <Inst_> | also, wait, didn't someone try to pattern synonym (,) or operator alias it already? |
| 16:11:00 | <ski> | dunno |
| 16:11:32 | <Inst_> | https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=a+-%3E+b+-%3E+%28a%2Cb%29&scope=set%3Astackage |
| 16:12:08 | <c_wraith> | but you see, names are only required to be unique per-module |
| 16:12:38 | <c_wraith> | that's the whole point of modules in Haskell |
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| 16:15:19 | <Inst_> | hmmm, can we import CPP macros? |
| 16:15:34 | <Inst_> | i mean I know -XCPP is a thing |
| 16:16:28 | <Inst_> | that might actually be interesting, i.e, I'd like to define something to demacro out into a let expression |
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| 16:17:17 | <Inst_> | then just import it |
| 16:17:51 | <Inst_> | but i guess that's getting really lispy |
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| 16:23:55 | <geekosaur> | you can't `import` but you can `#include` |
| 16:24:06 | <geekosaur> | cpp macros are completely independent |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-05-06.