Logs on 2023-05-10 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:44:39 | <Axman6> | sm: build-depends: base -- forevernew |
| 00:45:47 | <sm> | -- worksforevaarr |
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| 07:14:28 | <dminuoso> | Why exactly is the base version decoupled from ghc anyway? |
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| 07:14:56 | <dminuoso> | What practical purpose does this serve, other than to completely confuse and make GHC version dependency as invisible as possible? |
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| 07:21:41 | <[exa]> | dminuoso: ability to include vast improvements at one side without forcing literally everyone to versionbump? |
| 07:22:27 | <[exa]> | I'd say it might be better to split off a part of base that is the one actually depending on ghc, which might be co-versioned |
| 07:22:36 | <[exa]> | most part of base don't directly depend on ghc internals |
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| 08:04:48 | <merijn> | dminuoso: historical raisins |
| 08:05:03 | <merijn> | dminuoso: Since base used to be shared across compilers |
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| 10:52:45 | <strugglingCrab> | what would be the haskell equivalent of doc strings from rust |
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| 10:53:01 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: Haddocks? |
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| 10:53:21 | <strugglingCrab> | like, how do i format my comments to get info on hover |
| 10:53:38 | <strugglingCrab> | (using hls in vscode) |
| 10:53:41 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: ah, via something like hls, you mean? |
| 10:53:47 | <strugglingCrab> | mhm |
| 10:54:14 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: I dunno if hls supports/implements that, but I would assume that if/when it supports that it'll just be the current haddock formatting used to generate the Hackage docs |
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| 10:54:32 | <strugglingCrab> | ah i see, i will have to look into that |
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| 10:54:48 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/en/latest/markup.html |
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| 10:56:02 | <strugglingCrab> | on a seperate note, is there any universally accepted haskell formatter i could use |
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| 10:56:07 | <merijn> | No |
| 10:56:47 | <merijn> | There's at least, like, 3 different ones with significant usage and absolutely 0 that are even close to a simple majority acceptance |
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| 10:58:41 | <strugglingCrab> | anyone you could recommend that lines things up vertically in a sane way |
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| 11:00:30 | <strugglingCrab> | also, in cabal, is there a way to automatically update the list of modules used in my executable or do i have to edit the *.cabal file manually |
| 11:00:32 | <merijn> | Given that I'm an ardent "anti-autoformatting" person, probably wrong person to ask :p |
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| 11:01:51 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: I think there is a tool in the works to update it, but no there is no automatic/implicit module listing and this is intentional, because you want to be explicit about what you ship in a pacakge and not include random local artifacts by accident |
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| 11:02:59 | <strugglingCrab> | hmm i see, is that the same for dependencies or is there something like cargo add |
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| 11:04:28 | <strugglingCrab> | oh, and how would you represent arrays with statically known size in haskell |
| 11:05:07 | <strugglingCrab> | currently using [a] but it doesn't feel like the best way |
| 11:05:22 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: I suspect the static known size is a red herring and what you really wanna know is 'can I get "proper" (i.e. dense C style) arrays?' |
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| 11:05:38 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: In which case you probably want to look at |
| 11:05:40 | <merijn> | @hackage vector |
| 11:05:40 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector |
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| 11:06:06 | <merijn> | Which has both mutable and immutable dense 1D arrays |
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| 11:06:28 | <merijn> | O(1) indexing, and all that jazz |
| 11:06:58 | <strugglingCrab> | for context, implementing tic tac toe in haskell and looking for a way to represent the board, in rust (never used C) i would just do something like [Cell; 9] |
| 11:07:34 | <merijn> | There's also the "array" package which supports arbitrary dimensions and bounds, but I generally like it less than vector, so if 1d is fine I prefer vector |
| 11:08:11 | <merijn> | For something like tic-tac-toe I would probably use the array package and define a 3x3 array |
| 11:08:37 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: Alternatively, you could use "Map (Int, Int) val" from containers |
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| 11:36:46 | <sm1> | data Board = Board Cell Cell Cell Cell Cell Cell Cell Cell Cell |
| 11:37:20 | <[exa]> | ...oh you! :D |
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| 11:39:02 | sm1 | likes the Map |
| 11:39:08 | <sm1> | least boilerplate I suspect |
| 11:39:37 | <sm1> | but I guess not bounds-checked, which you asked for |
| 11:40:02 | <sm1> | unless you add Liquid Haskell |
| 11:40:46 | <ncf> | Map (Ordering, Ordering) Bool |
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| 11:40:56 | <opqdonut> | data Two a = Two a a; data PlusOne a b = PlusOne a b; data Board = Board (PlusOne Cell (Two (Two (Two Cell)))) |
| 11:41:05 | <opqdonut> | that's how you say [Cell; 9] in haskell! |
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| 11:50:22 | <ski> | `Three' might be better, in this case |
| 11:51:42 | <strugglingCrab> | sm1 that is what i started out with |
| 11:52:27 | <strugglingCrab> | not the best idea i ever had |
| 11:52:58 | <opqdonut> | ski: of course, but binary has a certain generality ;) |
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| 11:53:35 | <[exa]> | strugglingCrab: the usual question is how much you'd need to mutate the thing, and if a 3x3 board will be sufficient forever. Data.Map is perfect for infinite boards. Data.Vector is perfect for finite boards, and MVector variant of vector is perfect if you need to do millions of changes per second on the board |
| 11:54:04 | <strugglingCrab> | i will stick with a 3x3 board thats for sure |
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| 11:55:25 | <ski> | with `array', it's `Array (Int,Int) Bool', or so |
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| 11:55:51 | <strugglingCrab> | how do i add dependencies to a cabal project |
| 11:56:05 | <[exa]> | strugglingCrab: as for "statically sized", there aren't many extra actual program/safety properties that you'd get in haskell from knowing the static size of the thing, so static-sized arrays are generally not a thing. Might change eventually. |
| 11:56:35 | <[exa]> | strugglingCrab: "cabal install xxxx" in the project directory should work; but I'm usually editing the list of dependencies manually in the .cabal file |
| 11:57:29 | <strugglingCrab> | [exa] hmm, i guess the reason i mentioned statically sized as a "requirement" was because i come from a lower level language but i think i will look into vector, i find one dimensional representations easier to work with |
| 11:58:24 | <[exa]> | yap, that's recommended |
| 11:58:43 | <[exa]> | usually it's not complex nor expensive to wrap the vector in something that will allow you to access and change precise offsets |
| 11:59:01 | <[exa]> | and by doing that you'll gain a lot of insight into how the other array packages differ |
| 12:00:30 | <sm1> | but using lists will be far easier |
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| 12:01:52 | <sm1> | strugglingCrab: mainly, add deps to the build-depends list in your .cabal file, the user guide has details |
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| 12:53:06 | <strugglingCrab> | might be a weird question but the modules in base namespaced under GHC can be normally used right? |
| 12:53:26 | <sm1> | yup |
| 12:53:32 | <strugglingCrab> | like there's nothing "special" about them |
| 12:53:35 | <strugglingCrab> | oki, thx |
| 12:54:00 | <sm1> | well, unless their doc says "INTERNAL ONLY! KEEP OUT! WILL CHANGE!" |
| 12:54:40 | <sm1> | generally they are probably a bit less stable/platform-supported than the others |
| 12:56:22 | <sm1> | well, well, maybe most of them are fine. I've seen some like that |
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| 12:57:24 | <sm1> | but they do all say Stability internal, Portability non-portable on hackage |
| 12:59:11 | <strugglingCrab> | portability as in portable to different platforms or portable to different compilers |
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| 13:04:45 | <strugglingCrab> | should i rather prefix function name with the type they take or use qualified imports, like, which of those is more common |
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| 13:20:21 | <merijn> | strugglingCrab: I'd say qualified imports are the most common |
| 13:20:52 | <merijn> | Many of the "standard" libraries (bytestring, text, containers, vector, etc.) implicitly assume you will import them qualified |
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| 13:24:14 | <Hecate> | some of them do tell you to import them qualified though |
| 13:24:55 | <Hecate> | strugglingCrab: I believe it's better to have List.fold rather than listFold |
| 13:25:17 | <strugglingCrab> | i see, thanks |
| 13:26:27 | <[exa]> | (also I guess there are now pretty commonly accepted shortcuts for all packages, as in M is Data.Map, V is Data.Vector, B is Data.Bytestring, T is Data.Text (no matter if lazy or not), ... |
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| 13:29:57 | <merijn> | [exa]: Personally I tend to do BS for ByteString and LBS for lazy (and LT for lazy text) |
| 13:30:08 | <merijn> | but yeah, there are some informal conventions |
| 13:30:59 | <Helle> | and then there are people being silly, like me, who import qualified ByteString as SBS |
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| 13:31:15 | <merijn> | Helle: That's reserved for ShortByteString :p |
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| 13:31:42 | <Helle> | merijn: no, it is for Serious ByteString buisness |
| 13:32:38 | <Helle> | (there may be some other meanings :P) |
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| 13:33:19 | <merijn> | Hecate: I feel the most important restriction (for me) is "no more than 1 open import per module", i.e. if I search a name it should either be qualified or have an explicit import list importing it (the "1 open import" exception is for stuff like optparse-applicative/megaparsec, etc. where I end up using like 50+ functions from one package, where I will permit myself to import that package openly in that |
| 13:33:25 | <merijn> | one module) |
| 13:34:07 | <Helle> | I've been refactoring some code primarily dealing with that convention not even remotely being followed |
| 13:34:31 | <merijn> | So far that convention has served the maintainability of my stuff well :p |
| 13:34:57 | <Helle> | I mean this code was fine |
| 13:35:06 | <Helle> | but I could see where it could start to be an issue in the future |
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| 14:33:17 | <dminuoso> | Is there something lightweight for quickly building simple unix domain socket communication? |
| 14:33:37 | <dminuoso> | I dont quite care for the specific transport, could be json, cbor, or anything. |
| 14:34:13 | <dminuoso> | Specifically I want to provide an -ctl haskell command line tool to reconfigure and debug a running haskell program |
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| 14:35:10 | <dminuoso> | Some wishful thinking would be servant+warp but lightweight. |
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| 15:07:46 | <Axman6> | strugglingCrab: better to give the user the choice of how they want to refer to thing instead of deciding for them, so keeps the names short an context specific, don't add prefixes that others will always have to type. So, assume yor users will use qualified imports if they need to |
| 15:08:42 | <Axman6> | dminuoso: servant+warp feels pretty lightweight to me, and IIRC you can use it with cborg |
| 15:08:53 | <Axman6> | if not... I have a library I need to write |
| 15:09:27 | <Axman6> | (I'm still pretty poroud of coming up with that name) |
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| 15:10:19 | <Axman6> | I think I also had the idea to add the existential type parameter to the decoder do you could decode directly into mutable arrays without unsafePerformIO |
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| 16:20:45 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: https://imgur.com/a/uIub6zl |
| 16:20:54 | <dminuoso> | You must have extreme tolerance to consider any of this "lightweight" |
| 16:21:35 | <dminuoso> | At that point, Im more keen to just manually use `network` and deal with sockets |
| 16:22:04 | <dminuoso> | You may perhaps confuse "lightweight" with "performant" |
| 16:23:20 | <ncf> | dminuoso: how do you generate such a dependency graph? |
| 16:23:30 | <dminuoso> | ncf: `cabal-plan dot-png --root ...` |
| 16:23:36 | <ncf> | thx |
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| 18:37:04 | <Inst> | ummm, can i ask another dumb question? |
| 18:37:23 | <Inst> | I was hypothesizing that Haskell is primarily good for buliding libraries and eDSLs |
| 18:37:46 | <Inst> | erm, libraries and frameworks, with others having reported that Haskell is great for eDSLs |
| 18:38:05 | <Inst> | from people's experience, is it easier or significantly easier to build a useful library in Haskell? |
| 18:38:11 | <Inst> | than in other languages? |
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| 18:38:59 | <geekosaur> | it can be. as usual it depends on what exactly you're doing |
| 18:39:36 | <geekosaur> | haskell is very good at modularity via types, but types aren't always the whole story because there's still what the library is actually doing |
| 18:39:54 | <geekosaur> | you'll note for example that UI libraries are in somewhat short supply |
| 18:40:15 | <Inst> | ehh, story is improving, used to be much worse |
| 18:41:20 | <geekosaur> | it's improving, but slowly. the real problem there is impedance mismatch because UI libraries tend to be OO instead of FP and fit poorly |
| 18:41:57 | <Inst> | I was just more comparing to Julia; the community is of comparable size, probably less skilled on average, but their libs are notorious for being buggy and unreliable |
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| 18:44:30 | <[exa]> | Inst: julia is suffering badly from the lack of a type system tbh |
| 18:45:27 | <Inst> | gradual typing |
| 18:45:34 | <[exa]> | most of the package pain would be solved by "don't overload stuff like a complete baboon" |
| 18:45:52 | <Inst> | i'd more complain that it's an issue with the culture, they don't believe in types and aren't correctness oriented |
| 18:45:54 | <[exa]> | gradual typing doesn't help if the code is first produced as basically irrepairable |
| 18:46:03 | <Inst> | https://juliapackages.com/p/typecheck |
| 18:46:16 | monochrom | writes dubious Num instances like a complete baboon. >:) |
| 18:46:31 | <geekosaur> | Applicative Num, anyone? |
| 18:46:56 | <[exa]> | monochrom: at least your functions probably don't return "any of num, maybe nothing, sometimes a matrix" |
| 18:47:16 | <geekosaur> | and I'm waiting for Num ScreenId to bite someone writing an xmonad config |
| 18:48:01 | <[exa]> | Inst: yeah there are several others, but what isn't enforced simply doesn't exist..... I guess you kinda nailed it with the culture, half of the people arrived from matlabverse |
| 18:48:49 | <monochrom> | In fact lately I learned linear algebra so that I can rationalize Num instances for square matrices because abs and signum can be fulfilled by the theorem that every matrix is factorable as M = (orthogonal matrix) * sqrt (transpose M * M) |
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| 18:49:00 | <[exa]> | (and matlab is a complete correctness insanity, the usual metric being "if I can see a plot I can ignore the code errors there") |
| 18:50:41 | <monochrom> | Hey it's a tautology that you can always trace the blame to culture! |
| 18:51:08 | <monochrom> | E.g., if the language is untyped, that's really because the people want untyped. |
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| 18:51:23 | <Inst> | still, you'd think Haskell's library ecosystem would be better because of the FP + strong static typing; easier to solve problems that others want repeatedly solved |
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| 19:05:12 | <sclv> | i think yeah building a lib in haskell isn't necessarily easier, but being able to reliably use a lot of other people's libs certainly is. our dep trees are wider and deeper than most other langs i bet |
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| 19:07:58 | <yushyin> | and people regularly complain about the big dependency trees :) |
| 19:08:22 | <[exa]> | let's realistically compare to npm |
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| 19:21:32 | <diod> | Can Haskell describe data structures like signed integers, ieee754, and virtual memory? |
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| 19:26:14 | <probie> | diod: can you elaborate on what you want? Haskell natively supports fixed width signed integers, as well as whatever kinds of floats one's hardware supports |
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| 19:32:54 | <tomsmeding> | sclv: "our dep trees are wider and deeper than most other langs" -- I pass you an npm |
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| 19:37:27 | <probie> | I'm not a fan of the massive dependency trees, it makes auditing dependencies a real pain |
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| 19:44:15 | <diod> | probie: Is it possible to describe arbitrary mappings to memory? |
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| 21:01:55 | <rbrins> | I'm new to Haskell and ran into an issue on using regex (and my first time importing modules in general). I've installed the one I wanted with `cabal install regex-compat` but anytime I try to `import Text.Regex` I get "Could not find module" from within GHCI. Any thoughts? I've read a few stackoverflow pages and still don't really know where to go from here. |
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| 21:03:07 | <geekosaur> | cabal doesn't work that way, generally. it installs libraries to its store and you can use `cabal repl --build-depends=regex-compat` to get at them in ghci |
| 21:03:48 | <geekosaur> | or `cabal install --lib` but that can potentially cause problems if your environment file (created by `--lib`) becomes cluttered with multiple versions of libraries |
| 21:04:21 | <geekosaur> | in general we don't use `ghci` directly these days, we use `stack ghci` or `cabal repl` depending on which build tool you prefer |
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| 21:05:44 | <rbrins> | thanks, I guess I need to figure which build tool I want to use then see if I still run into issues. |
| 21:06:56 | <geekosaur> | you will find tings talking about using `cabal install` like that but they're all old (which sadly means they sometimes tend to come up before more recent stuff). that usage caused messes |
| 21:13:17 | sm1 | wishes cabal would add the recognisable "ghci" command like stack |
| 21:13:44 | <geekosaur> | agreed, actually |
| 21:13:49 | <geekosaur> | at least as an alias |
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| 21:17:46 | <sm1> | this is such a universal roadbump, it feels like ghci needs to do something more helpful |
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| 21:18:59 | <geekosaur> | at the least it should perhaps suggest that packages installed via stack or cabal need to be accessed by them |
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| 21:28:59 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/8946 |
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| 21:44:50 | <probie> | I strongly prefer repl, because it pretends that cabal isn't tightly coupled to ghc. Also, the ghci command is useful if one doesn't use cabal (e.g. their haskell libraries are installed by their package manager). |
| 21:45:31 | <probie> | s/their package manager/their system package manager/ |
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| 21:50:16 | <aztex> | I have a nested record in Haskell. I want to do `deriving (Show, Eq)` on that record. Currently I have to traverse down to each of the nested records themselves and type `deriving (Show, Eq)` before I can do that for the outermost record |
| 21:50:29 | <aztex> | Is there some shorter way to do this? |
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| 21:53:15 | <probie> | I doubt it'd be shorter (except perhaps in terms of compile time), but you could write the `Show` and `Eq` instances for the top-level type by hand, which would let you avoid needing to have `Show` and `Eq` on the types "below" it |
| 21:57:57 | <geekosaur> | not helpful, I know, but I just got into the habit of always deriving Show, Eq, and other typeclasses as appropriate (e.g. Ord) |
| 21:58:17 | <geekosaur> | even if I'm not planning to use it for anything else, Show is useful for debugging |
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| 22:05:33 | <aztex> | wonder if there is any way to make this simpler |
| 22:06:32 | <aztex> | Java's solution seems to be that the Object class defines `toString` and `equals`; so any object created will atleast inherit those methods |
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| 22:08:01 | <geekosaur> | we don't actually have objects as such so there's no object hierarchy to follow |
| 22:08:27 | <geekosaur> | maybe we need `deriving default` |
| 22:08:43 | <aztex> | yes I am aware that Haskell lacks any object system |
| 22:11:48 | <geekosaur> | the hard part of which would be handling anything for which it would error out; currently if you derive something you can't you get an error, but for `deriving default Show` it should at most print a warning. which I think doesn't fly with how `deriving` currently works |
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