Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-05-22 (liberachat/#haskell)

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04:01:52 <ghostbuster> is there a doc that describes the full output syntax of :info for ghci? there's a brief description here https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/ghci.html but it's not exhaustive
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05:53:00 <gensyst> If I do forkOS in two places, could they still ultimately be bound to the same OS thread?
05:53:09 <gensyst> Or will those necessarily be two different OS threads?
05:54:04 <gensyst> I just want to know, if I have an infinite loop (channel) within forkOS, will that OS thread be occupied , or ... can other forkOS still utilize that OS thread?
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06:00:31 <c_wraith> they might share an OS thread. that doesn't mean they won't both get scheduled, by the normal GHC thread scheduling
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06:35:18 <gensyst> c_wraith, what do you mean by not scheduled? (and is there anything other than "normal" scheduling)?
06:35:54 <gensyst> can a thread engaged in a loop, do something else also? (as you can see, i'm not much about threads)
06:35:59 <gensyst> know*
06:36:00 <DigitalKiwi> priority scheduling
06:36:16 <c_wraith> I don't think within GHC, there's anything other than the normal scheduling
06:37:03 <DigitalKiwi> boo
06:37:19 <c_wraith> GHC uses a weird semi-cooperative threading model. You can write a loop that doesn't ever yield the thread, though it is unusual
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06:37:42 <c_wraith> The key is that it checks for the end of its timeslice on allocations
06:38:08 <c_wraith> you can write a zero-allocation loop, but it's unusual in Haskell
06:38:32 <DigitalKiwi> aren't most things in haskell unusual
06:39:18 <gensyst> c_wraith, ah, i forgot... of course the *HASKELL* loop might be anywhere, but only FFI calls are going to bound threads. so of course there can be loop.
06:39:30 <gensyst> I'm thinking about risks of occupying bound threads
06:39:37 <gensyst> sorry, occupying OS threads
06:39:42 <gensyst> too many of them
06:39:44 <gensyst> until I run out
06:39:53 <c_wraith> I mean, failing to yield is pretty catastrophic anyway
06:40:12 <c_wraith> it will hang the whole program at the next major GC
06:40:31 <DigitalKiwi> i failed to yield and got a ticket and an accident :(
06:41:00 <c_wraith> A major GC needs to stop all threads to do its job (well, ok, there is the concurrent collector now. It doesn't need to.)
06:42:04 <DigitalKiwi> has anyone written the haskell runtime in rust yet lol
06:42:28 <gensyst> But why can forkOS only be called limited number of times? Why aren't the OS threads reused thousand times?
06:43:46 <DigitalKiwi> oh https://github.com/HigherOrderCO/HVM
06:43:47 <monochrom> Both are false.
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06:44:25 <monochrom> And at some time you realize that "forkOS" is a poor name, should have been named "forkBound" in the first place.
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06:45:07 <gensyst> i distinctly recall getting "too many threads" exception in the past... maybe it was something else :S
06:45:15 <gensyst> how could i have been so wrong lol
06:45:21 <gensyst> about everything
06:45:22 <monochrom> Because even if you use forkIO only, you can have as many OS threads as you want, which is controlled by the number of "capabilities", i.e., RTS option -N
06:45:56 <monochrom> Hell, you don't even have to use forkWhatever. You can just use par.
06:46:27 <gensyst> monochrom, so forkOS is limited by numCapabilities? (unlike forkIO)
06:46:49 <monochrom> That's the opposite of what I said.
06:49:17 <c_wraith> honestly, forkOS is a weird thing and I'm not sure why you'd have a program that does it frequently.
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07:15:03 <delYsid> "mmap 4096 bytes at (nil): Cannot allocate memory" since latest Debian (bookworm) kernel upgrade. Do we have a fix for this, or should I just stop coding haskell for a few weeks?
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07:17:04 <gensyst> i'm confused now. i've no idea where i got this "thread limitation" exceptions.
07:17:11 <gensyst> maybe i'm just misremembering things completely
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07:19:21 <[exa]> delYsid: I see no such problem on debian, what's your versions?
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07:21:25 <monochrom> I think https://discourse.haskell.org/t/facing-mmap-4096-bytes-at-nil-cannot-allocate-memory-youre-not-alone/6259 basically implies that there is still no solution.
07:23:48 <[exa]> hm the test there gives me like 256k allocs before failing, should I be worried?
07:24:24 <monochrom> It seems like a Heisenbug. Next time it will be much sooner or much later.
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07:25:17 <[exa]> delYsid: `uname -r` pls?
07:25:36 <[exa]> (or maybe better -v)
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07:29:35 <[exa]> ah ok the new kernel really kills it
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07:35:34 <[exa]> is there any reason why the C example here lists |MMAP_32BIT ? that sounds completely wrong to me
07:36:10 <delYsid> [exa]: 6.1.0-9-amd64
07:36:45 <delYsid> #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Debian 6.1.27-1 (2023-05-08)
07:36:51 <[exa]> ok same here, but I failed to produce a crashing version of anything haskelly yet
07:36:56 <[exa]> and your ghc is 9.2?
07:37:07 <delYsid> lts-20.21, so 9.4
07:37:59 <delYsid> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=282429
07:38:06 <delYsid> So others also see the problem.
07:38:32 <[exa]> just to check, can you strace the bad mmap syscall?
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07:38:42 <delYsid> It appears recent kernels make certain Haskell programs segfault, great stuff.
07:39:27 <[exa]> that happens
07:39:40 <[exa]> could you pls find the flags from the mmap syscall?
07:41:22 <delYsid> mmap(NULL, 4096, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANONYMOUS|MAP_32BIT, -1, 0) = -1 ENOMEM (Cannot allocate memory)
07:41:36 <[exa]> hm yeah also the 32bit mmap
07:41:44 <[exa]> mine doesn't have MAP_32BIT
07:41:59 <[exa]> is your system 32bit?
07:42:03 <delYsid> no
07:43:04 <delYsid> Whats interesting is, that this triggers non-deterministicly, so it appears to happen at rather random points during program execution.
07:43:21 <[exa]> that's usual with memory issues, yes
07:45:49 <[exa]> IMO the MAP_32BIT shouldn't be there
07:45:59 <[exa]> because that's a pretty hard constraint
07:46:09 <[exa]> and I don't see any reason why ghc would require that
07:46:57 <delYsid> Oh, you're right, this is 9.2" Maybe I should try nightly and see if it goes away.
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07:48:47 <delYsid> nope, dependency hell prevents that.
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08:27:35 <Unhammer> Hi, I've got libbz2-dev on Ubuntu but cabal still says * Missing (or bad) header file: bzlib.h
08:27:37 <Unhammer> bzlib> * Missing (or bad) C library: bz2
08:27:48 <Unhammer> anyone know what else I need to do?
08:28:23 <Unhammer> /usr/include/bzlib.h exists
08:30:23 <Unhammer> oh PEBCAK I forgot I run stack with use-nix so I need nix:
08:30:25 <Unhammer> packages: [bzip2]
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10:11:10 <[exa]> delYsid: not a big deal about 9.2 tbh, seems working here too, just not having the 32bit flag for whatever reason
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10:12:01 <[exa]> oh wait
10:12:02 <delYsid> [exa]: Anything I could try to figure out why it is using 32BIT on my side?
10:12:28 <[exa]> yeah I see the new ghc is actually doing the 32bit mmap and the older one was not
10:12:36 <[exa]> iiiiiiiinteresting
10:15:37 <[exa]> yap looks somewhere between 8.10 and 9.4 this |32bit thing got added which obviously kills it, because you can't reasonably expect the system to give you short addresses
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10:28:59 <delYsid> well, < 6.1.27 did work, so its a combination of the 32BIT flag and a recent kernel change.
10:29:25 <probie> [exa]: why not? It's all virtual memory
10:29:27 <[exa]> yap, the changes in kernel can't guarantee that much 32bit prefixes, which is sad but that's the reality
10:29:46 <[exa]> probie: for stupid historical reasons, from the code it seems that it's for supporting non-PIC code with short addresses
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10:31:05 <[exa]> I'm not saying it's not a linux issue too (there's no point in not giving the memory), but IMO the 32bit flag there is just superfluous
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11:20:01 <jean-paul[m]> are typeclasses exactly isomorphic to records of values?
11:20:12 <jean-paul[m]> (records of values? what else could you have a record of)
11:20:54 <jean-paul[m]> Haskell 98 typeclasses, I probably mean
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11:39:44 <ncf> define exactly and isomorphic
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11:42:55 <dminuoso> % data Foo { a :: Int }
11:42:55 <yahb2> <interactive>:151:10: error: ; Unexpected type ‘{a :: Int}’ ; In the data declaration for ‘Foo’ ; A data declaration should have form ; data Foo a = ...
11:43:27 <dminuoso> The error message is surprisingly well formulated. What syntax am I tapping into here?
11:43:51 <dminuoso> Why is {} being considered by the lexer in that type position?
11:44:06 <geekosaur> kind annotation, I think
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11:45:42 <dminuoso> % :set -fprint-explicit-kinds
11:45:42 <yahb2> <no output>
11:45:46 <dminuoso> % :t Const
11:45:46 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: ; • Data constructor not in scope: Const ; • Perhaps you meant variable ‘const’ (imported from Prelude)
11:45:55 <dminuoso> % import Data.Functor.Const
11:45:55 <yahb2> <no output>
11:45:57 <dminuoso> % :t Const
11:45:57 <yahb2> Const :: forall {k} a (b :: k). a -> Const @{k} a b
11:46:25 <dminuoso> geekosaur: Ah no! I think this has to do with inferred type variables
11:46:33 <dminuoso> But that's only an output thing.
11:46:47 <dminuoso> % f :: forall {k} a (b :: k). a -> Const @{k} a b; f = undefined
11:46:47 <yahb2> <interactive>:161:43: error: parse error on input ‘}’
11:46:51 <geekosaur> yes, it's an "explicitly inferred" (hence braces instead of parens) kind annotation
11:47:10 <geekosaur> lets you hide it from TypeApplications
11:47:41 <dminuoso> id :: forall {a}. a -> a; id x = x
11:47:43 <dminuoso> % id :: forall {a}. a -> a; id x = x
11:47:43 <yahb2> <no output>
11:47:45 <dminuoso> Interesting
11:47:54 <dminuoso> % :set -XTypeApplications
11:47:54 <yahb2> <no output>
11:47:58 <dminuoso> % id @Int 1
11:47:58 <yahb2> <interactive>:167:1: error: ; • Cannot apply expression of type ‘a0 -> a0’ ; to a visible type argument ‘Int’ ; • In the expression: id @Int 1 ; In an equation for ‘it’: it = id...
11:48:05 <dminuoso> geekosaur: TIL. Cute, thanks!
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13:16:53 <jean-paul[m]> ncf: Hmmm. Yea I didn't really mean isomorphic I guess. Something something subset? How about: Could I rewrite any arbitrary use of Haskell 98 typeclasses to use a manual/explicit record instead?
13:17:37 <jean-paul[m]> I can't think of a case where I couldn't
13:17:38 <opqdonut> yes, but you lose the guarantee of uniqueness
13:18:04 <opqdonut> e.g. you could have two incompatible OrdDict Int records
13:18:16 <jean-paul[m]> Ah, right. Interesting.
13:18:20 <opqdonut> and then your binary search tree breaks its invariants
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13:31:56 <dminuoso> opqdonut: Mmm, in principle you could still have this property in GHC Haskell compiled programs with typeclasses (even without orphan instances)
13:32:07 <dminuoso> Or.. no. Actually hold that thought.
13:32:12 <dminuoso> Its precisely orphan instances that can cause this.
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13:40:57 <jade[m]> what's the easiest way to play around with a package in ghci?
13:41:06 <jade[m]> download it globally with cabal and load it manually?
13:41:41 <dminuoso> `cabal repl --build-depends bytestring`
13:42:16 <dminuoso> Though thats a bad example, since it ships as a boot library. :P
13:42:27 <dminuoso> `cabal repl --build-depends flatparse`
13:42:43 <jade[m]> thank you, I wanted to try out some stuff with random
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13:44:02 <dminuoso> jade[m]: You can even include arbitrary constraints to control versions or specify build-depends for multiple packages.
13:45:05 <dminuoso> e.g.: cabal repl --build-depends "flatparse ^>= { 0.3.5.1 }, mason == 0.2.4"
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15:55:42 <eldritchcookie[m> ghc supports shared libraries and finding them dynamically at run time, how different can the shared object be from what is expected say i compile package foo with bar 0.1 but my bar in the system is 0.1.1 with the same exported entities per module, does that work? if so how different can bar be? could i use bar 0.2 which exports more things but hasn't removed any entities?
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15:57:55 <geekosaur> https://wiki.haskell.org/Shared_libraries_and_GHC
15:58:21 <geekosaur> tl;dr: it's more complex than that because internals leak into the shared objects for cross-module inlining
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16:10:25 <eldritchcookie[m> what i gather is that i can if i disable inlining
16:11:50 <eldritchcookie[m> which i should not do
16:12:23 <eldritchcookie[m> can i disable inlining for only a specific package?
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16:19:53 <eldritchcookie[m> cool there is https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.7/docs/html/users_guide/using-optimisation.html#ghc-flag--fomit-interface-pragmas
16:20:24 <eldritchcookie[m> is that what you mentioned or would i need to disable more optimizations?
16:21:41 <geekosaur> I think you have to force -O0
16:22:01 <geekosaur> and I'm not sure even that would be sufficient to achieve ABI compatibility
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16:35:05 <eldritchcookie[m> this makes hslua just so much more appealing as an option.
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17:34:57 <ghostbuster> what's the best haskell book that i can get a physical paper copy of?
17:35:52 <jade[m]> i liked 'programming in haskell' by graham hutton a lot
17:37:07 <geekosaur> consider that seconded
17:37:57 <ghostbuster> oh he's part of computerphile on youtube?
17:38:12 <ghostbuster> cool
17:38:14 <delYsid> [exa]: I figured that passing ghc-options -with-rtsopts=-xm40000000 fixes the segfaults in my binary. Is there a better fix?
17:41:10 <jade[m]> ghostbuster: yes, he has a few videos about monadic parsing on there if I recall correctly
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17:45:05 <ghostbuster> ok i'm going to order it
17:45:15 <ghostbuster> i feel like i need a book i can flip back and forth in
17:45:51 <ghostbuster> this looks cool too but maybe not for a beginner https://www.amazon.ca/Algorithm-Design-Haskell-Richard-Bird/dp/1108491618
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18:19:28 <sm> ghostbuster: define best, obviously ?
18:20:01 <sm> or not, maybe you found it :)
18:20:31 <[exa]> delYsid: afaik that's hinting the default mmap location. can you check what happens if you use that in the mmap-test.c tht was posted on the forum?
18:20:35 <sm> that might be the one book everyone recommends and no one has a bad word to say about
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18:49:02 <delYsid> [exa]: I got that value from the GHC documentation for -xm, but I have to admit I have absolutely no idea what it does. It apparently makes the problem go away. Which forum are you refering to, the link I pasted?
18:49:27 <ghostbuster> sm: i already ordered that one haha
18:49:39 <ghostbuster> but i generally like to have at least 2 resources to consult when learning a new language
18:49:53 <sm> good job supporting quality writing
18:49:55 <[exa]> delYsid: yeah that discourse one
18:50:07 <sm> you may not have seen
18:50:07 <sm> @where books
18:50:07 <lambdabot> https://www.extrema.is/articles/haskell-books is the best list of Haskell books. See also: LYAH, HTAC, RWH, PH, YAHT, SOE, HR, PIH, TFwH, wikibook, PCPH, HPFFP, FSAF, HftVB, TwT, FoP, PFAD, WYAH,
18:50:07 <lambdabot> non-haskell-books
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18:51:49 <ghostbuster> cool
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18:52:36 <ghostbuster> this might be kind of an odd question but does experience with the parallel nature of logic design / VHDL make it easier/harder to learn functional programming, as opposed to someone who has only used imperative languages?
18:53:33 <geekosaur> I can't say experience with Prolog / logic programming helped me very much
18:54:06 <geekosaur> it helped a little, but more because I was already aware of / open to paradigms other than imperative or OO
18:54:39 <ghostbuster> interesting
18:54:59 <ghostbuster> i have no experience with prolog
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18:55:45 <geekosaur> (mathematical logic vs. hardware logic)
18:56:17 <ghostbuster> yeah it seems from a cursory glance like it might be similar to FP but i guess not
18:56:49 <geekosaur> a few similarities and in particular prolog is declarative
18:57:06 <geekosaur> but there's a big difference between logic programming and functional programming
18:58:52 <[exa]> ghostbuster: I'd say it helps; anything that abstracts you away from "running the process imperatively" to "describing how the process should run" is roughly on the way
19:00:17 <ghostbuster> i think i've sufficiently wrapped my head around the basic concept of FP, now i'm a bit hung up on basic syntax
19:01:06 <sm> practice grasshopper. I recommend some project euler problems
19:01:24 <jade[m]> mhm, the concepts are the most important things
19:01:33 <jade[m]> the syntax almost follows from that, in a sense
19:01:40 <sm> alongside reading other people's (simple) code
19:02:12 <sm> maybe exercism is the one that lets you easily view other solutions ?
19:02:15 <ghostbuster> add :: Integer -> Integer -> Integer
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19:02:42 <ghostbuster> ^ using the same symbol to represent inputs and outputs
19:02:51 <monochrom> exercism is better than project euler for this.
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19:03:12 <geekosaur> there's not a lot of difference. consider partial application (e.g. `add 1`)
19:03:30 <geekosaur> is the first arrow pointing to an input or an output?
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19:03:45 sm found project euler nice and simple.. here's a simple number problem, go
19:04:01 <monochrom> "simple"
19:04:23 <jade[m]> think of function definition `a -> b -> c` as `a -> (b -> c)` and the `->` simply as a way to define a function from something to something else
19:04:43 <jade[m]> *instead* of `a -> b -> c` meaning `(a, b) -> c`
19:04:52 <monochrom> If you aren't a math major, project euler is just practicing brute-forcing over and over again.
19:05:05 <ghostbuster> ah ok that actually makes sense jade[m]
19:05:40 <monochrom> If you're a math major, project euler is about thinking very hard, coding up a O(1)-time algorithm that's trivial to code up in any language.
19:06:00 <sm> that made no difference for me; they were simple problems that didn't distract from figuring out Haskell syntax and mechanics
19:06:08 <sm> eg https://projecteuler.net/problem=1
19:06:09 <[exa]> monochrom: you mean "thinking very hard and writing down the result" ? :D
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19:06:14 <monochrom> Either way I can't see how it learns you good programming.
19:06:25 <jade[m]> ghostbuster: this is a lot of my personal experience.
19:06:25 <jade[m]> "Why is thing X this weird in haskell, can it not be 'normal'" -> learning a bit more -> "Oh this makes a lot of sense actually, why are all the mainstream imperative languages *not* doing that?"
19:06:40 <sm> "good programming" is not the goal of someone trying to write their first Haskell code :)
19:06:40 ghostbuster is not a math major
19:06:50 jade[m] is neither
19:07:18 [exa] is, and avoids all that knowledge in programming by far
19:07:42 <ghostbuster> i had a taste of real analysis in one course during undergrad but that was ~10 years ago
19:07:42 jade[m] aspires to be, some day
19:07:55 <[exa]> jade[m]: well good luck
19:08:21 <monochrom> Well "trying to write their first Haskell code" is fulfilled by LYAH too. Now why don't you also recommend that? There is a reason.
19:08:24 <[exa]> ghostbuster: btw with most confusing syntax things, don't hesitate to ask here (or in #haskell-beginners), people here love explaining stuff
19:08:35 <jade[m]> Thank you, I will start a compsci minor in ~2 months
19:08:45 <ghostbuster> nice
19:09:08 <[exa]> jade[m]: what uni? (just curious, feel free to ignore :D )
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19:09:26 <sm> monochrom: I'm not discounting your perspective (a teacher's, I think), but reporting my experience. Project Euler helped me get going and it fit that need ideally. LYAH didn't, nothing useful in there
19:09:26 <monochrom> The point is that we are done with recommending resources that can only get you to write your first few lines of Haskell code.
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19:10:09 <geekosaur> but I'm pretty sure PE only works if you know the math
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19:10:25 <geekosaur> brute forcing PE works poorly in any language
19:10:30 <ghostbuster> project euler is pretty basic math early on isn't it?
19:10:47 <jade[m]> [exa]: you probably wouldn't know it, a fairly small german one
19:10:56 <sm> yep. "Find the sum of all the multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000." I certainly didn't complete all of it
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19:11:25 <[exa]> ghostbuster: btw as a mental exercise, it is interesting to have a look why the function types are parenthesized "from right" while function argument application is parenthesized "from left" -- e.g., compare type `sumThree :: Int -> (Int -> (Int -> Int))` with the use: `((sumThree 1) 2) 3`
19:11:50 <mauke> s/poorly/great/
19:12:48 sm checks.. I did the first 18
19:13:25 <sm> of.. 834 . I see why I could be giving a wrong impression :)
19:13:32 <[exa]> I didn't like Euler problems solely for the fact that all the latter ones follow this style of "yeah let's pull in this advanced finite field theorem out of nowhere and observe how the problem gets trivial again"
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19:14:23 <monochrom> It is Math Olympiad but you have to write machine-readable solutions.
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19:15:09 <[exa]> why people recommend it for programming then?
19:15:16 <monochrom> Or you can use brute-forcing and have 1000 exercises for list comprehension, 900 of which are too slow.
19:15:16 <[exa]> ._.
19:15:58 <mauke> nah, just let it run for a few days
19:16:20 <sm> [exa]: I've just been saying why.. the first few problems are simple enough and easy enough to view that it's non-distracting. Compare with exercism where it's a whole signup, checkout, learn a process kind of thing
19:16:41 <ghostbuster> [exa]: i'm curious to see an example of a PE problem like that
19:16:50 <sm> if it weren't for that maybe I'd rate exercism #1. But that's just me, YMMV
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19:17:20 <monochrom> "Find the sum of all the multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000" is already like that. You are not supposed to for i=0 to 1000.
19:17:30 <[exa]> sm: ah yeah, true
19:17:47 <[exa]> ghostbuster: PE?
19:18:03 <mauke> portable euler
19:18:04 <monochrom> You are supposed to, like, div 1000 3 + div 1000 5 - div 1000 15
19:18:33 <monochrom> Err no sorry, that's just the counts.
19:18:35 <sm> my answer was `a1 = sum [n | n <- [1..1000-1], n `mod` 3 == 0 || n `mod` 5 == 0]`, "supposed to" didn't enter my mind
19:18:52 <sm> just "here's a problem you can understand, can you write that in haskell ?"
19:18:56 <ghostbuster> mauke: what are you some kind of systems programmer? :P
19:18:58 <jade[m]> a lot of sum problems are like that, if you can find a closed form, why would you do it programmatically
19:19:03 <[exa]> monochrom: you can expand it to the sums (it's kinda triangular)
19:20:22 <sm> I think some of you are thinking like a beginner in a CS algorithms class. That's not what I mean by a beginner Haskell programmer.
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19:20:56 <jade[m]> that's what I think is the tradeoff between beautiful or expressive code and fast code. `sum [1..n]` looks great and is super expressive, but `((n - 1) * n) / 2` is "better"
19:20:58 <monochrom> I guess "let n = div 1000 3 in 3*(n*(n-1) `div` 2)" does the sum of multiples of 3. Similarly for the other terms.
19:21:20 <ghostbuster> [exa]: trying to write the body for sumThree now haha
19:21:34 <[exa]> jade[m]: {-# RULES sum [1..n] = ...... #-} gogogo
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19:21:48 <mauke> shouldn't that be n + 1
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19:21:54 <jade[m]> I haven't worked with rewrite rules yet haha
19:22:10 <[exa]> ghostbuster: that was for demonstration but you can just smash the 3 things together with +
19:22:37 <[exa]> mauke: yap
19:22:40 <ghostbuster> i tried `sumThree x y x = x + y + z`
19:22:48 <monochrom> My last stab at PE before I let go (and actually afk and take a shower and have tea):
19:22:55 <jade[m]> mauke: ah yeah, I always get that one mixed up
19:23:05 <monochrom> If PE began with "count the number of integers from 1 to 10^100 inclusive"
19:23:13 <mauke> and that's why sum [1..n] is superior :-)
19:23:19 <[exa]> ghostbuster: the type might get a bit too generic there -- haskell will by default make a function that works "for all numeric things"
19:23:26 <jade[m]> mauke: yep haha
19:23:36 <monochrom> I'm sure programmers would be like "[1 | i<-[1..10^100]] This is a great programming exercise!"
19:23:54 <ghostbuster> [exa]: no i mean i included the :: line as well
19:24:04 <monochrom> but also say "why is it still too slow under -O2? GHC sucks"
19:24:05 <int-e> monochrom: how do I parallelize this?
19:24:20 <[exa]> ghostbuster: without the line you might see a type like `Num a => a->a->a->a` which means roughly "if we can assume that some a is Num-eric, this has a type a->a->a->a"
19:24:34 <jade[m]> length [0 .. 10^100]
19:24:45 <mauke> - 1
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19:25:02 <ghostbuster> oh i think i see what to do
19:25:06 <int-e> > 10^100 - 0 + 1 :: Int
19:25:08 <lambdabot> 1
19:25:32 <jade[m]> should have used genericLength, heh?
19:25:34 <[exa]> ghostbuster: if you have a ghci running, check types of stuff by typing :t something
19:25:38 <ghostbuster> hmm no, but i think it's thinking i want x = x + y + z, thus 'Conflicting definitions for x'
19:25:51 <mauke> > sum (replicate 10 0.1) :: Rational
19:25:52 <ghostbuster> [exa]: trying to load a .hs file
19:25:52 <lambdabot> 1 % 1
19:26:28 <[exa]> ghostbuster: you may pastebin the file (https://paste.tomsmeding.com/)
19:27:27 <ghostbuster> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/URP8HJhI
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19:27:55 <mauke> x y x
19:27:58 <jade[m]> you have x twice in the parameters
19:28:03 <ghostbuster> lol
19:28:51 <jade[m]> when this works, try to use :t and apply your sumThree to only two arguments. What do you expect the output will be?
19:29:35 <ghostbuster> will the output be a function?
19:29:52 <jade[m]> what type will that function have?
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19:30:08 <ghostbuster> Int -> (Int -> Int)
19:30:26 <jade[m]> close, that would be if you applied it to one parameter
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19:30:37 <monochrom> [exa]: "PE is meant to be IMO" : "why people recommend it for programming?" :: "cough syrup is meant to relieve cough, opioids are meant to relieve pain, glue is meant to stick" : "so why people recommend them for getting high?" >:)
19:31:18 <ghostbuster> lol you wrote that analogy like a functional programmer
19:31:55 [exa] is enlightened
19:32:01 <ghostbuster> jade[m]: hmm, does it apply from the inside out?
19:32:50 <ghostbuster> I'm imagining an Int -> ... and a passed argument annihilating each other
19:33:21 <[exa]> ghostbuster: yeah that's a good view imo
19:34:01 <geekosaur> but they apply from the outside in, not the inside out
19:34:02 <jade[m]> not quite, `Int -> ...` means that if you give it an int, then if gives you something else.
19:34:02 <jade[m]> `Int -> (Int -> (Int -> Int))` therefore implies that `sumThree 1` gives you back `Int -> (Int -> Int)`.
19:34:02 <jade[m]> Applying yet another parameter `(sumThree 1) 2` thus gives you `Int -> Int` :D
19:34:04 <ghostbuster> now i'm wondering what happens with a 3-argument function that's not associative
19:34:12 <ghostbuster> if you only give 2 arguments i mean
19:34:13 <jade[m]> ghostbuster: yes!
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19:34:47 <ghostbuster> jade[m]: ah ok that makes sense
19:34:59 <jade[m]> jade[m]: > <@jade.256:the-apothecary.club> not quite, `Int -> ...` means that if you give it an int, then if gives you something else.
19:34:59 <jade[m]> > `Int -> (Int -> (Int -> Int))` therefore implies that `sumThree 1` gives you back `Int -> (Int -> Int)`.
19:34:59 <jade[m]> > Applying yet another parameter `(sumThree 1) 2` thus gives you `Int -> Int` :D
19:34:59 <jade[m]> and, *all* those parantheses are implicit because of the associativity of definition/application respectively
19:35:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘`’
19:35:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:33: error: parse error on input ‘(’
19:35:40 <gensyst> Do async exceptions eventually become sync exceptions later? What I mean is, if I (on thread A) throwTo into thread B, thread B therefore crashes, but originally C was the one calling B, will C see the crash from B as a normal sync exception?
19:36:01 <gensyst> Hmmmmmmmmm
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19:36:20 <mauke> what does it mean to call a thread?
19:36:33 <ghostbuster> haskellbook.com suggests using :info (^), :info (*), :info(+) etc. to learn about operator precedence but I don't really understand the output format
19:37:00 <mauke> ghostbuster: the "infix" line is about operator precedence
19:37:08 <gensyst> mauke, good question. So thread B just disappears and that's it? no trace of it.
19:37:14 <mauke> the rest is ... fun
19:37:24 <[exa]> ghostbuster: a fun exercise is to try to work through why e.g. `id id gcd 5 3` works and try to guess the actual type of the first `id`
19:37:50 <jade[m]> [exa]: oh god
19:37:55 <ghostbuster> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Fzp76qUN
19:38:08 <jade[m]> I get it, but it's a pain to read
19:38:18 <geekosaur> gensyst, if there is no exception handler wrapped around it then yes, it just disappears
19:38:36 <mauke> ghostbuster: the relevant information is infixr 8 ^; infixl 7 *; infixl 6 +; infixl 6 -
19:39:24 <mauke> type Num :: * -> Constraint is advanced nonsense
19:39:29 <mauke> that's not even standard Haskell
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19:43:15 <EvanR> type inferrence, "wavefunction collapse" before it was cool
19:44:01 <jade[m]> he
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19:53:09 <ghostbuster> polymorphism?
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19:53:51 <[exa]> (as opposed to monomorphism.)
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20:02:49 ghostbuster goes back to trying to sum three numbers
20:04:59 <monochrom> EvanR: Heh
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20:05:52 <int-e> ghostbuster: may I suggest 0, 0, and 0?
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20:11:41 <EvanR> gensyst, you can build "I'm making a call to some thread, i.e. waiting for it to return an answer or crash, and if it crashes, I crash (or something)" out of the primitives haskell gives you. The async package has done this. But these are higher level concepts that don't just exist
20:13:40 <EvanR> but it's a good way to avoid having silently crashing threads
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20:23:34 <sm> "at the start of every offering of the course the professor says that students can use any language that can run on the school servers, but issues a warning that teams using Haskell have the highest variance in mark of any language, with many teams using Haskell overestimating their ability and crashing and burning then getting a terrible mark, more than any other language, while some Haskell teams do quite well and get perfect"
20:23:48 <sm> (from this nice language comparison: https://thume.ca/2019/04/29/comparing-compilers-in-rust-haskell-c-and-python)
20:26:23 <ghostbuster> lol
20:27:05 <ghostbuster> for me, getting a better understanding of compiler internals is sort of a tandem goal of learning FP
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20:29:46 <jade[m]> that's a good goal imo, it has definitely done that for me
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20:32:23 <gensyst> Thanks mates!
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20:34:33 <gensyst> geekosaur, EvanR, but the question remains... can C catch the async exception that A throwTo into B?
20:35:20 <EvanR> I had to do a double take, C is a third thread, not a programming language in this question xD
20:35:23 <geekosaur> only if B is started with a wrapper that throwTo's it to C
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20:36:07 <EvanR> yeah a chain of wrappers that set up this chain of re-throws would do it
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20:36:50 <gensyst> Are you talking about onException, etc?
20:37:02 <geekosaur> yes, it would require a handler
20:37:03 <gensyst> (that catch async exceptions)
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20:38:38 <EvanR> if C spawned B and B spawned A, you can see where these wrappers go, at the start of each thread, and they rethrow to the spawner or communicate the fact back to them somehow before dying
20:38:57 <gensyst> EvanR, geekosaur .. and would I be correct that onException (that catches async exception) I could also put into C itself directly (i..e all the code in C is wrapped in onException).
20:39:09 <gensyst> Or of course I ahve the choice to catch it downstream in the code in B
20:39:23 <geekosaur> no, a handler in C will not catch an exception thrown in B
20:39:29 <geekosaur> even if C started B
20:39:53 <EvanR> there's no built-in parent child thread concept aiui
20:40:35 <geekosaur> right, async builds one by means of wrappers and such
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20:46:32 <gensyst> geekosaur, so if C wanted that stuff, it should start B with async package (for instance)
20:46:44 <geekosaur> or wrap it itself
20:47:02 <gensyst> and I presume reputable web frameworks (etc.) do stuff like that right? if a thread gets async killed, it logs the failure to log file at least
20:47:21 <geekosaur> async will do this for you but it's just using the tools already available, viz. wrapping the function passed to forkIO in a handler that rethrows an exception to C
20:47:29 <geekosaur> yes
20:47:49 <geekosaur> in general async is nicer to work with than raw threads
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20:49:16 <gensyst> very good info, thanks
20:49:45 <EvanR> also the details of properly wrapping threads at spawn time, esp in the presence of async exceptions, can be tricky
20:50:41 <EvanR> see how async does it for proof xD
20:51:23 <EvanR> that it can be tricky, not necessarily that they even get it right!
20:51:54 <EvanR> asynchronous exceptions is a wonderful pandoras box
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20:52:56 <gensyst> it's only 1k LOCs...
20:53:19 <EvanR> well I guess I have to find the relevant snippet
20:53:49 <monochrom> I believe you. :)
20:54:08 <geekosaur> it's not how large the code is, it's how carefully it does the appropriate masking and wrapping
20:54:20 <EvanR> withAsyncUsing
20:54:32 <EvanR> is where the magic happens
20:54:40 <geekosaur> only a couple of characters but the exact placement makes a big difference in correctness/reliability
20:55:28 <monochrom> Goes a long way to show that bugfix difficulty is not measured by edit distance.
20:55:49 <EvanR> the "built-in" wrapper `mask' runs some code with async exceptions mask, and passes in a restore sub-wrapper to unmask which has to be used at the correct time, plus other stuff
20:56:04 <EvanR> masked,*
20:57:23 <monochrom> Actually the masking interface is not so hard to use if you're used to dependency injection. This is exactly dependency injection.
20:58:09 <EvanR> thread cancellation is implemented using uninterruptibleMask, which is a variant of mask, but the spawning uses mask anyway, for reasons!
20:59:37 <EvanR> a thread that is waiting on MVar with async exceptions masked is still interruptible, which could be right or wrong depending on what you're doing
21:00:30 <int-e> async exceptions can sometimes be captured in pure values, no throwTo required: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/oHG3m0Fh
21:03:29 <int-e> hmm
21:05:36 <int-e> Actually I don't understand what's happening there.
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21:07:43 <int-e> Oh it's getting an exception because the MVar becomes unreachable... not what I'm aiming for.
21:08:23 <int-e> (I should print the caught exception)
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21:11:17 <gensyst> oh, marlow wrote async...
21:11:23 <gensyst> the book author
21:11:27 <gensyst> of course
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21:17:33 <int-e> Oh this is the kind of thing I remembered, it was not totally pure (it involves catching exceptions under unsafePerformIO): https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kCUUhAbQ
21:20:04 <zzz> what module should i look for if i want to parse date and time and retrieve something like the day of week>
21:20:21 <int-e> (`onException` re-raises the exception, but under rare circumstances (like an untimely garbage collection) the re-raise can happen in a different thread here.)
21:21:32 <geekosaur> zzz, parseTimeM in the time package comes to mind
21:21:41 <geekosaur> or one of its cousins
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21:25:00 <geekosaur> Data.Time.Clock has the day of week stuff once you've parsed a date+time
21:25:17 <geekosaur> sorry Data.Time.Calendar
21:25:36 <geekosaur> the parse stuff is Data.Time.Format
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21:27:51 <zzz> geekosaur: thanks!
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22:18:20 <ghostbuster> so, project euler spoiler but.. i guess pre-declaring the signature of a function with :: is optional?
22:18:33 <ghostbuster> i just wrote this through trial and error in the repl `multThreeFive n = [ x | x <- [1..n-1], mod x 3 == 0 || mod x 5 == 0]`
22:18:48 <monochrom> yes
22:18:59 <geekosaur> yes, type inference will do it in pretty much any case you care about
22:19:25 <geekosaur> the downside is if you make a type error, it will try to infer something that fits the error and you may then get an error somewhere else
22:19:45 <ghostbuster> ah cool
22:20:04 <ghostbuster> so the value of pre-declaring is for type safety
22:20:05 <geekosaur> so it's generally good style to work out the correct type and annotate it appropriately, so the error is detected where it happens
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22:20:41 <geekosaur> (numbers in particular do this because Num and friends are pretty loose)
22:21:19 <ghostbuster> [1..10] :: (Num a, Enum a) => [a]
22:21:26 <ghostbuster> a list is an enum?
22:21:54 <monochrom> Sometimes adding a few handwritten type improves error messages.
22:21:54 <ghostbuster> i was actually thinking of a fun project that would require enums but wasn't sure how to do them yet
22:21:57 <geekosaur> no, but [x..y] is shorthand for an enum 0operation (specifically `enumFromTo`)
22:22:10 <monochrom> Most times it is a courtesy to other human readers.
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22:54:32 <sm> ghostbuster: nice! same as mine 10 years ago
22:55:44 <jade[m]> what is a declarative/functional programmers perspective on the definition of an algorithm as a fi ite sequence of steps?
22:55:50 <sm> generally you can skip type signatures when you're confident, add them if you get an unclear error or to document the code better for others/future-you
22:56:32 <jade[m]> s/fi ite/finite
22:57:12 <geekosaur> our steps are different 🙂
22:58:00 <ghostbuster> so i have a list of integers I want to sum.. i'm guessing i need a function that takes a list and an accumulator and returns the new accumulator?
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22:58:40 <geekosaur> and such a function exists, even. try to guess it
22:58:45 <jade[m]> there is a function for that but I suggest you write it by hand using pattern matching on the list and recursion :D
22:58:51 <sm> yes.. though consider this is such a common need there might be..
22:59:02 <ghostbuster> i wondered if there was
22:59:15 <ghostbuster> but then i thought it would not be strange if such a common function did not exist :-P
22:59:48 <ghostbuster> the first search engine result for "haskell count a list" was this reddit thread asking why such a function doesn't exist in Prelude
23:00:20 <jade[m]> what does "count a list" mean?
23:02:57 <ghostbuster> oh i was thinking that returning the number of items in a list and returning the sum of items in a list would be solved in similar ways
23:03:09 <ghostbuster> crossed wires in my brain
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23:03:27 <jade[m]> indeed they are
23:03:39 <jade[m]> very similar
23:03:49 <ghostbuster> does project euler have solutions? I think I solved problem 1
23:03:59 <jade[m]> try to implement both using recursion, and then attempt to see a common pattern
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23:13:52 <jade[m]> anyways, I'm gonna go for the night, wish you all the best with learning haskell ghostbuster:
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23:20:49 <ghostbuster> thanks for the help, cheers
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23:25:27 <monochrom> I think PE lets you submit your code for testing.
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23:43:43 <Inst> curious, why is GHCI C FFI broken in Windows?
23:43:48 <Inst> I.e, it's a guaranteed segfault
23:44:20 <Inst> Is it something intrinsic with the architecture that's hard to fix, or can a competent Win32 API programmer do a proper linkup?
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