Logs on 2023-05-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:06 | <maralorn> | c_wraith: I think because that would lead to to many major bumps of the public api. |
| 00:01:30 | <c_wraith> | there's a reason there are two fields for major. |
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| 00:02:54 | <maralorn> | But consumer will need to pin both fields to be save. |
| 00:03:21 | <c_wraith> | and.. good? a package that's frequently changing it's internals isn't stable by definition. |
| 00:03:32 | <c_wraith> | *its |
| 00:03:48 | <hpc> | isn't the point of internals to change them frequently? |
| 00:04:02 | <jackdk> | People have conflated "version numbers as semantic information" and "version numbers as marketing information", I think. |
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| 00:04:34 | <c_wraith> | the point of internals is that's where everything is that breaks your invariants. |
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| 00:05:13 | <hpc> | that's probably where the problem here lies then |
| 00:05:26 | <hpc> | maybe it should be called unsafe instead or something |
| 00:06:10 | <hpc> | internal sounds like you're violating the promises of the packaging, and unsafe sounds like you're violating the promises of the api |
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| 00:07:05 | <nitrix> | I propose invariant and invarion't. |
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| 00:08:57 | <c_wraith> | unsafe is for things that break the runtime, via memory or type unsafety |
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| 00:53:56 | <c_wraith> | oh hey. 9.6.2. and it fixes the bug I found immediately playing around in 9.6.1. (someone had reported it before it was even released, though) |
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| 06:43:22 | <maerwald[m]> | maralorn: why is it weird |
| 06:44:13 | <maerwald[m]> | maralorn: https://nikita-volkov.github.io/internal-convention-is-a-mistake/ |
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| 07:04:22 | <[Leary]> | maralorn: Internals shouldn't be exposed just for binaries or tests anyway; that's what internal libraries are for. |
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| 07:31:06 | <jade[m]> | I am writing an application with brick, which uses a custom state type and transition function. I need to perform IO actions depending on the state. Would I be right to assume that I need a monad transformer (maybe StateT) with IO to model this? |
| 07:31:39 | <jade[m]> | I don't know much about either things (State monad and monad transformers) |
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| 07:40:02 | <sm> | jade: IIRC brick types are a bit tricky at first but you don't need to add an extra transformer yourself. Maybe check some example apps ? |
| 07:40:19 | <jade[m]> | will do so, thank yoi |
| 07:40:24 | <jade[m]> | s/yoi/you |
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| 07:44:43 | <jade[m]> | the problem is that all the example programs I read don't actually use IO-actions when changing state. The transition function is from `State -> State` and the IO is handled in the background |
| 07:45:08 | <jade[m]> | I somehow want to use IO as my state |
| 07:45:27 | <sm> | I think you can do IO in the event handlers, not the update function ? |
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| 07:46:34 | <sm> | ie in EventM you can do liftIO |
| 07:46:37 | <[Leary]> | jade[m]: Maybe start here <https://github.com/jtdaugherty/brick/blob/master/docs/guide.rst#the-app-type>, and note that `EventM n s` has MonadState s` and `MonadIO`. |
| 07:46:55 | <jade[m]> | ohh I see |
| 07:47:00 | <jade[m]> | thank you very much, I just saw that |
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| 08:08:36 | <delYsid> | Yes, EventM has an MonadIO instance. |
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| 10:05:01 | <maralorn> | maerwald: Yeah, I know that blogpost and I agree. Upholding the pvp is a good thing. I am just wondering whether we painted ourselves into a corner in the community if frequent package splitting is the correct solution. |
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| 12:32:36 | <zzz> | ncf: did you mean Bool instead of Either? |
| 12:32:55 | <zzz> | ncf: did you mean Bool instead of Either? |
| 12:33:13 | <ncf> | when? |
| 12:33:20 | <zzz> | oops, i had the chat scrolled WAY up |
| 12:33:22 | <zzz> | sorry about that |
| 12:33:40 | <ncf> | for the canonical sum type? no, i meant Either |
| 12:33:58 | <zzz> | why is Either the canonical sum type? |
| 12:34:17 | <ncf> | pretty much by definition |
| 12:34:30 | <ncf> | check out https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/sum+type |
| 12:34:44 | <ncf> | Bool is the sum of two copies of the unit type |
| 12:37:25 | <jade[m]> | is there a place to ask about Brick? I am facing an issue that's really annoying, and I assume that I'm simply doing something wrong in regards to the rendering |
| 12:37:39 | <zzz> | jade[m]: try #haskell-game |
| 12:38:38 | <zzz> | i'm guessing byorgey may be able to help too ^^ |
| 12:40:35 | <zzz> | ncf: i have zero formal education in type theory, but why was i under the impression that A+B , A and B being terms of a certain type, correponded to `data T = A | B` ? |
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| 12:41:59 | <ncf> | i'm not sure what you mean by that |
| 12:42:14 | <ncf> | A | B seems to indicate that A and B are constructors, so you couldn't take their sum |
| 12:43:28 | <jade[m]> | I think they mean that sum types can be represented by that |
| 12:44:09 | <jade[m]> | outside the context of haskell |
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| 12:47:44 | <[Leary]> | zzz: For /types/ A and B, A+B corresponds to Either A B = Left A | Right B. |
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| 12:48:29 | <zzz> | ok that makes sense |
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| 12:51:27 | <zzz> | i didn't follow the conversation, sorry about that |
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| 14:32:14 | <jade[m]> | I need to work with lenses now apparently and I really, really don't like it so far |
| 14:32:30 | <jade[m]> | it seems so abitrary and unintuitive |
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| 14:32:56 | <probie> | jade[m]: what about it feels arbitrary and unintuitive? |
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| 14:34:13 | <jade[m]> | it just doesn't make sense to me how it fits in with the rest of haskell. Lenses seem to be this thing that are different to everything else ... |
| 14:36:04 | <jade[m]> | I suppose I'm not really sure where to start ... |
| 14:38:10 | <probie> | I've definitely felt like I'm writing "lens" and not Haskell before (at a previous job which used generic-lens with overloaded labels) |
| 14:39:11 | <geekosaur> | how does that doffer from any other EDSL? |
| 14:39:16 | <geekosaur> | *differ |
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| 14:39:35 | <EvanR> | you can start with old functional references which might seem more motivated, and work your way to the modern lens library |
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| 14:40:48 | <jade[m]> | I'm mainly just bummed out that I'm required to use them for a very simple bricks application |
| 14:41:04 | <jade[m]> | I just want to move up and down :c |
| 14:42:10 | <EvanR> | what specific task is requiring lens |
| 14:43:22 | <EvanR> | a common one is editing a field in a nested record |
| 14:43:31 | <EvanR> | in which case lens is not required |
| 14:44:33 | <jade[m]> | list wants me to use an event handler `handleListEvent :: (Foldable t, Splittable t, Ord n) => Event -> EventM n (GenericList n t e) ()`, but I need to return `Brick.EventM Name ApplicationState ()` which `zoom :: Zoom m n s t => LensLike' (Zoomed m c) t s -> m c -> n c` apparently lets me do ... provided I have a `LensLike' (Zoomed m c) t s` |
| 14:46:05 | <jade[m]> | I have no idea about how to create such a LensLike thing for my application state |
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| 14:47:52 | <probie> | Where is zoom defined? |
| 14:47:53 | <ncf> | makeLenses and (.) |
| 14:48:13 | <jade[m]> | probie: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/brick-1.9/docs/Brick-Types.html#v:zoom |
| 14:48:27 | <jade[m]> | ncf: I have no idea what to do with that information at all |
| 14:48:35 | <c_wraith> | that's a re-export from lens |
| 14:48:51 | <c_wraith> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2.2/docs/Control-Lens-Zoom.html |
| 14:48:52 | <EvanR> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2.2/docs/Control-Lens-Zoom.html |
| 14:49:01 | <EvanR> | echo |
| 14:49:02 | <EvanR> | echo |
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| 14:50:27 | <probie> | In the case of brick, it actually looks to be from microlens (not that it matters) |
| 14:50:39 | <jade[m]> | <jade[m]> "list wants me to use an event..." <- can you maybe give me the code I would need to do this for my example? |
| 14:50:39 | <jade[m]> | My `ApplicationState` is simply a newtype around a list of strings so far ... |
| 14:51:24 | <jade[m]> | I also keep seeing this ''Stuff about lenses everywhere on the top level, but it's neither a binding nor an expression which just confuses me |
| 14:51:45 | <EvanR> | prime prime is a naming convention, it's part of the name |
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| 14:51:56 | <probie> | How do you create your `GenericList` and how to do you modify it? |
| 14:52:36 | <ncf> | makeLenses ''Foo is a Template Haskell statement that generates the appropriate haskell code in-place |
| 14:53:31 | <jade[m]> | I just want to move through my list 😭 |
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| 14:56:26 | <ncf> | zoom yourListLens (handleListEvent e) |
| 14:56:31 | <ncf> | or something like that |
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| 14:59:19 | <ncf> | i upgraded a project to brick 1 a few months ago, you can maybe look at that for inspiration https://github.com/utdemir/nix-tree/pull/47/files#diff-ed4121bec4643d6f6c9095d96834993febb1e67fba7e3d877559b7f3b1247add |
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| 15:01:05 | <EvanR> | embrace the type system lego bricks xD |
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| 15:01:35 | <EvanR> | it might take all afternoon to put the puzzle together but at least it will look right |
| 15:01:52 | <jade[m]> | these are the only times where I feel like imperative languages make all of this so much easier |
| 15:02:04 | <jade[m]> | and I know I'll feel better when I learn about it and it all makes sense |
| 15:02:20 | <jade[m]> | and I'll know that this is better, but for now I have my monthly grudge against FP |
| 15:02:35 | <EvanR> | easier imperative language = someone doesn't explain anything and just gives a block of example code that can be pasted |
| 15:03:19 | <EvanR> | not easier imperative language, have you looked at how phone UIs are programmed... shudder |
| 15:03:42 | <jade[m]> | yes, I know I know 😄 |
| 15:03:52 | <jade[m]> | I'll get over this phase |
| 15:06:13 | <jade[m]> | <ncf> "i upgraded a project to brick..." <- I'm trying to find what `B.<stuff>` means and then I see this... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/447335b4faaa2254fbc03eda262a50457014a5be>) |
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| 15:07:21 | <ncf> | anyway, when it comes to lenses i would recommend trying to keep a clear mental barrier between interface and implementation (which the lens library makes very difficult...) |
| 15:08:56 | <ncf> | the interface is rather simple: once you know what a lens is (hole in a data structure) and what a traversal is (0 or more holes in a data structure) and how they compose, you basically know all the theory you need |
| 15:09:33 | <ncf> | the implementation is another story... lens uses the so-called van Laarhoven encoding of lenses, which can be a bit daunting (this is where all the Functor and Applicative and Over and Profunctor stuff comes in) |
| 15:10:30 | <ncf> | but really i think in most cases you can just ignore that and use the provided basic lenses (_1, _2, ...) and let Template Haskell generate the rest for you |
| 15:11:31 | <jade[m]> | mhm, I'm trying to find the definition for some of the lenses and I can't find them. |
| 15:11:31 | <jade[m]> | Especially `modify` and `aeCurrPaneL` seem to be relevant for me? |
| 15:11:51 | <jade[m]> | aeCurrPaneL seems to relate to the field aeCurrPane of the state monad |
| 15:12:05 | <ncf> | aeCurrPaneL is specific to nix-tree, it's the lens associated with the aeCurrPane field of some data structure they use |
| 15:12:46 | <ncf> | the question is: how do you go from your application state to the GenericList you want to modify? |
| 15:12:48 | <jade[m]> | ok, what makes... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/139acb91ceaa50ebfd118216c86e63ca15ec8d05>) |
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| 15:12:57 | <jade[m]> | what nakes the state type change here? |
| 15:13:14 | <jade[m]> | ncf: my application state carries a `[String]` |
| 15:13:17 | <ncf> | zoom does |
| 15:13:41 | <ncf> | hm, i don't know if brick can work with that |
| 15:13:41 | <jade[m]> | jade[m]: which I use to build the `GenericList` in the render |
| 15:13:52 | <probie> | With only a `[String]` how can you know where in the list you are? |
| 15:14:03 | <ncf> | yeah, you need to carry the GenericList around in your state |
| 15:14:09 | <jade[m]> | ohhhhh |
| 15:14:11 | <jade[m]> | OHHHHHHH |
| 15:14:14 | <jade[m]> | WAITTTTTATTATATAT |
| 15:14:15 | <jade[m]> | AAAAAAAA |
| 15:14:24 | <jade[m]> | I had an enlightenment |
| 15:14:59 | <ncf> | great! |
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| 15:21:34 | <jade[m]> | ok, I have remodled that, back to the same issue |
| 15:21:59 | <jade[m]> | I need this zoom thing and I think I want to zoom on that list then |
| 15:22:09 | <ncf> | yes |
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| 15:25:27 | <jade[m]> | I prefixed my field with an underscore and used $(makeLenses ''ApplicationState) |
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| 15:31:49 | <jade[m]> | what should I do now with zoom? |
| 15:33:19 | <ncf> | zoom yourField whatever |
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| 15:33:43 | <jade[m]> | IT WORKS |
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| 15:33:54 | <jade[m]> | aaaaaaaaaaaaa |
| 15:33:57 | <jade[m]> | I'm done for today |
| 15:33:59 | <jade[m]> | thank you very very much for the help |
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| 15:34:24 | <jade[m]> | my last bug was ... apparently now it matters where you define stuff? like I need to define the lense above where I use it ?! |
| 15:34:46 | <ncf> | yes, TH doesn't play well with reordering |
| 15:34:55 | <jade[m]> | jesus christ |
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| 15:36:31 | <jade[m]> | all of that for this ... |
| 15:36:37 | jade[m] | uploaded a video: (2726KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/the-apothecary.club/csQpZmKBFijPduABdEktGEyM/2023-05-24%2017-36-44.mp4 > |
| 15:36:43 | <jade[m]> | please don't look at the code |
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| 17:24:17 | <lyle> | I have some code here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/uFyta0yy |
| 17:24:56 | <lyle> | I've pointed the line I don't understand in a comment. I'd like to know what the line does and what the name of the language feature is please. |
| 17:27:01 | <lyle> | Ok, now I get it; it's just the case where the tree is empty. I thought it was some complicated type thing. Thanks. |
| 17:27:32 | <monochrom> | Yeah it is no different from "f Nothing = 0; f (Just _) = 1" |
| 17:27:59 | <monochrom> | "defining a function by pattern matching" :) |
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| 17:28:36 | <lyle> | I don't often see a function that has a pattern match and a case with guards, it threw me off a bit. |
| 17:29:15 | <monochrom> | As usual, that happens most often when coding up binary-search-tree algorithms :) |
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| 17:29:25 | <[exa]> | it's super convenient in such cases tho |
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| 17:30:27 | <[exa]> | at the other end you can actually do patternmatches in the guards: | x == y, z <- x, ... |
| 17:30:43 | <monochrom> | The mind compartmentalizes "unrelated" language features and does not realize how the grammar actually allows mixing them, even nesting them inside each other. |
| 17:31:15 | <monochrom> | For example, few people have thought of "let { x = y where y=10 } in ..." |
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| 17:32:20 | <monochrom> | https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/language :) |
| 17:32:26 | <int-e> | > let x | x <- x = x where x = 42 in x |
| 17:32:27 | <lambdabot> | 42 |
| 17:32:36 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 17:33:12 | <monochrom> | Yeah I have actual code that goes "f x = ... foo ... where foo | x<0 = ..." |
| 17:33:45 | <int-e> | . o O ( who doesn't? ) |
| 17:33:51 | <monochrom> | Woe to those who must pronounce code and pronounce "|" as "where" though. >:D |
| 17:33:55 | <int-e> | > [1 | False] |
| 17:33:56 | <lambdabot> | [] |
| 17:34:57 | <int-e> | (that's silly with a literal `False` but sometimes useful with an actual condition) |
| 17:35:21 | <ncf> | | is obviously pronounced "when" |
| 17:35:58 | <monochrom> | You are ruining my point. |
| 17:36:12 | <monochrom> | I mean, nice. :) |
| 17:36:38 | <monochrom> | I now wonder what could be pronounced "whence". :) |
| 17:36:58 | <ncf> | => |
| 17:37:11 | <monochrom> | I'm also thinking :: |
| 17:37:40 | <monochrom> | OK how about one of them "whence" and one of them "hence" just for fun sake >:) |
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| 17:50:58 | <nyc> | monochrom: Cheers! |
| 17:51:18 | <monochrom> | oh hi long time no see |
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| 18:15:21 | <nyc> | What's the term for when there's a case like Ctor :: Class c => c -> t ? |
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| 18:21:47 | <nyc> | This page says "implicit context to the data constructor": https://wiki.haskell.org/Data_declaration_with_constraint |
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| 18:22:40 | <EvanR> | basically Ctor will carry a dictionary for Class along with a function |
| 18:23:14 | <nyc> | EvanR: Mostly I just needed the name for the construct to drop a comment in. |
| 18:23:34 | <EvanR> | sometimes written as Class c *> c -> t to distinguish it as a product instead of a kind of function in itself |
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| 18:24:05 | <EvanR> | you might get traction calling it "an existential" |
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| 18:30:04 | <[exa]> | anyone using mustache to render stuff? I'm wondering how to (somehow easily) avoid it from expanding all substitued html to htmlentities |
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| 18:33:45 | <[exa]> | (ah ok it got solved by reading the source) |
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| 18:43:28 | <sm> | jade: you code to that ?? |
| 18:43:50 | <sm> | but, congrats on the brick app! :) |
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| 18:44:44 | <sm> | was going to suggest hledger-ui as another one to mine for clues but I guess you figured it out. Brick is hard to get going with, I agree |
| 18:45:45 | <geekosaur> | `ghcup tui`? |
| 18:46:05 | <geekosaur> | especially since the main widget is a big list |
| 18:46:22 | <geekosaur> | s/main/primary |
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| 18:48:53 | <sm> | oh I was thinking that's not brick, but it is |
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| 18:56:39 | <jade[m]> | <sm> "jade: you code to that ??" <- hm? |
| 18:58:12 | <sm> | I heard your coding music :) |
| 18:58:38 | <jade[m]> | ohhh, yeah |
| 18:58:47 | <EvanR> | sm stop accessing the surveillance net without a warrant |
| 19:00:30 | <sm> | well if by surveillance net you mean the chat log two screens up.. sorry :) |
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| 19:45:12 | user_____ | is now known as gurkenglas |
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| 20:29:49 | <Inst> | what are some good examples of EDSL monads? |
| 20:29:52 | <Inst> | I can think of Blaze |
| 20:30:08 | <Inst> | or rather, monadic DSLs, which no one uses mDSL or MDSL for |
| 20:33:30 | <mauke> | good old monadic parsers? |
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| 20:42:43 | <sm> | Shake ? |
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| 20:54:24 | <monochrom> | parsec, attoparsec, megaparsec, etc. IMO anyway. |
| 20:56:19 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: if I'm not mistaken https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sbv also has a monad for the most generic use |
| 20:56:53 | <Inst> | cool |
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| 20:57:18 | <Inst> | thanks |
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| 21:15:45 | <[exa]> | Inst: hakyll has a few build-ish monads, and I'd say scotty-like routing might count as well |
| 21:16:16 | <[exa]> | (also everyone's fav list comprehension is an eDSL right? :D ) |
| 21:17:29 | <Inst> | fvorite list comprehension? you mean the list comprehension construct? |
| 21:17:44 | <Inst> | interestingly enough, I think wadler originally introduced monads as a generalization of list comprehensions |
| 21:17:52 | <Inst> | what is meant by scotty-like routing? |
| 21:18:52 | <monochrom> | Revisionism: E=monad because E for Eilenberg-Moore >:) |
| 21:19:28 | <monochrom> | And KDSL is when you use Arrow because K for Kleisli arrows. >:D |
| 21:19:39 | <monochrom> | Or you can say ADSL to confuse everyone |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-05-24.