Logs on 2023-05-31 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:24:49 | <ijqq> | Hello |
| 00:26:10 | <Axman6> | Hello! |
| 00:26:32 | <ijqq> | How's it going? |
| 00:27:23 | <ijqq> | I am here because I would like some advice on how to learn haskell. I need to learn it because I want to write my own programming language in Haskell. |
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| 00:36:24 | <jackdk> | https://haskellbook.com/ was the book that got me over the hump, but it costs money and is extremely thorough. (I did all of the exercises over several months.) https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis1940/spring13/ is probably the best general-purpose free resource, but maybe given your goals https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours could be of interest (I haven't read it) |
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| 00:42:05 | <ijqq> | Ah okay, thank you |
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| 02:22:35 | <probie> | I'm not sure if this is better asked here or in #ghc, but how can I make rewrite rules play nicely with composition? I've got https://play.haskell.org/saved/lxt7XaoJ, and if you look at the core, sumFirstN and sumFirstN' generate code with rather different performance characteristics |
| 02:23:32 | <Lycurgus> | you know about th, right? |
| 02:23:55 | <Lycurgus> | (didn look at the stuff) |
| 02:24:40 | <probie> | what's the relevance of th here? |
| 02:24:50 | <Lycurgus> | rewrite |
| 02:26:37 | <cheater> | if i have f x a b c d e, and now i want to make g xs a b c d e = map (\x -> f x a b c d e) xs, is there a pointfree way to do this? |
| 02:26:43 | <cheater> | @pointfree f = g |
| 02:26:43 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 02:26:45 | <cheater> | @list |
| 02:26:45 | <lambdabot> | What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. |
| 02:26:48 | <cheater> | @pl |
| 02:26:48 | <lambdabot> | (line 1, column 1): |
| 02:26:48 | <lambdabot> | unexpected end of input |
| 02:26:48 | <lambdabot> | expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression |
| 02:27:00 | <cheater> | @pl g xs a b c d e = map (\x -> f x a b c d e) |
| 02:27:00 | <lambdabot> | g = const ((((((((map .) . flip) .) . flip) .) . flip) .) . flip . flip f) |
| 02:27:14 | <cheater> | @pl g a b c d e xs = map (\x -> f a b c d e x) |
| 02:27:14 | <lambdabot> | g = (((((const . map) .) .) .) .) . f |
| 02:27:57 | <probie> | When I say rewrite, I mean https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/rewrite_rules.html I don't see how th helps here |
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| 02:28:27 | <cheater> | this is kinda ugly |
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| 02:55:38 | <EvanR> | cheater, looks like an unfortunate positioning of the x argument |
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| 02:56:01 | <cheater> | i could put it anywhere else |
| 02:56:17 | <EvanR> | if it was last, you could write map (f a b c d e) xs |
| 02:56:23 | <cheater> | yes |
| 02:56:30 | <cheater> | but that only allows me to point-free remove the xs |
| 02:56:39 | <cheater> | i want to point-free remove a b c d e |
| 02:56:43 | <cheater> | that's the one i really care about |
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| 02:57:19 | <cheater> | ones* |
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| 02:57:24 | <EvanR> | if xs is last in g, then g a b c d e = map (f a b c d e) |
| 02:57:38 | <cheater> | sure |
| 02:57:46 | <EvanR> | or if you are into .:::: thingies |
| 02:57:50 | <cheater> | i'm not |
| 02:57:53 | <EvanR> | g = map .::::: f xD |
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| 02:58:09 | <cheater> | but i mean |
| 02:58:10 | <cheater> | ... |
| 02:58:10 | <EvanR> | yeah |
| 02:58:12 | <cheater> | you know |
| 02:58:16 | <EvanR> | just use variables |
| 02:58:34 | <cheater> | yeah but the problem is those variables each are 20 letters |
| 02:58:43 | <cheater> | so the line is like five monitors long |
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| 02:59:22 | <EvanR> | I aggressively use multiple lines to make sure code fits in <strikethrough>80</> 40 columns |
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| 03:00:52 | <int-e> | do you use that to fit two lines of code on a single punched card? |
| 03:00:54 | <cheater> | ah, i see you program on an ntsc tv. |
| 03:01:01 | <cheater> | a man of honor. |
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| 03:12:51 | <[Leary]> | cheater: If your function takes that many arguments, and better, shares them with at least one other function, it might be time to use a record. Then it becomes `f Args{arg1,arg2,...} x = ...`; `g args xs = f args <$> xs`. |
| 03:13:10 | <cheater> | hmm yeah maybe |
| 03:13:22 | <cheater> | but it's only one function that this is being shared, not more |
| 03:14:30 | <cheater> | oh hmm |
| 03:14:48 | <cheater> | if i define f inside a where inside g's body |
| 03:14:50 | <probie> | Does that imply that `f` is local to your function? In which case why do you need to pass the arguments to it in the first place? |
| 03:14:57 | <cheater> | then i don't necessarily need to take arguments in f, right? |
| 03:15:02 | <cheater> | right i was just thinking that |
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| 04:01:45 | <cheater> | yeah, that's a really good approach |
| 04:01:57 | <cheater> | thanks probie and rest |
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| 08:46:42 | <probie> | Are there limitations on when single constructor elimination can fire? I've seen GHC generate some core where there are two functions in a letrec, and the first is calling the second with a regular tuple (which the first constructs), which the second immediately deconstructs |
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| 09:00:11 | <jonathan_> | I'm considering attending the ghc developer's workshop remotely. In the registration form they said to please get an accout on the gch gitlab. I asked for access a few weeks ago, but it's still pending admin approval. How should I go about getting access? |
| 09:00:50 | <geekosaur> | generally you have to ask in #ghc, and an admin should be able to help you |
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| 09:14:37 | <talismanick> | Why might loading test/Spec.hs in GHCi error with "Could not load module ‘Test.Hspec’... member of hidden package" when it's clearly listed in the build-depends for the test suite? |
| 09:15:15 | <c_wraith> | talismanick: did you start ghci in the context of the test suite? |
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| 09:15:43 | <talismanick> | c_wraith: I loaded the file inside Emacs with C-c C-l, so... presumably so? |
| 09:15:56 | <c_wraith> | Oh. Definitely not, then |
| 09:16:21 | <geekosaur> | [25 23:37:58] <Artem[m]> <fgaz> "or just `cabal test` if you don..." <- Infamously, you may have to do `cabal test --enable-tests`. I wish I learned the ticket number by heart by now... |
| 09:17:06 | <c_wraith> | talismanick: that will just run a bare `cabal repl` |
| 09:17:18 | <talismanick> | huh, it's doing something different from `cabal run name-of-test` |
| 09:17:22 | <c_wraith> | Maybe telling it about your source file |
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| 09:17:48 | <talismanick> | c_wraith: how might I do that? |
| 09:18:25 | <talismanick> | Is there some knob I need to configure for HLS to handle this for me automatically? It handles the rest of project management pretty well |
| 09:18:50 | <talismanick> | (insofar as importing dependencies for lookup while editing goes ) |
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| 09:21:22 | <c_wraith> | No idea how to get HLS to do the right thing. |
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| 13:15:48 | <Las[m]1> | What do people usually use to write academic papers on Haskell? |
| 13:17:14 | <mzg> | LaTeX? |
| 13:17:39 | <jade[m]> | do you mean what software to write papers? |
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| 13:36:00 | <juri_> | laTeX. |
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| 14:21:24 | <somerandomnick[m> | alex + happy |
| 14:22:30 | <somerandomnick[m> | ADTs closely reflect the BNF and disallow invalid values |
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| 14:24:28 | <somerandomnick[m> | the compiler will warn you for every unmatched patterns in functions over AST then |
| 14:24:57 | <somerandomnick[m> | I read "parsers" not "papers" XD |
| 14:25:02 | <somerandomnick[m> | obv the answer is latex |
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| 14:27:19 | <sm> | or pandoc ? |
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| 14:51:41 | <tomsmeding> | LaTeX here :p |
| 14:52:01 | <tomsmeding> | also, like, basically all the relevant publication venues require LaTeX, so it's not like we have much choice |
| 14:52:19 | <n0den1te> | sorry, what's latex? unless you mean those sweatingly fiendish pants |
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| 14:52:50 | n0den1te | says no need to answer, I'm just joking |
| 14:53:32 | <n0den1te> | I know academics have a thing for it, apparently |
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| 14:54:51 | <geekosaur> | mostly because that's where it originated |
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| 17:39:47 | <zero> | uh oh i think i messed something up. ghci is presenting me with this message: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1685554732088 |
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| 17:42:31 | <geekosaur> | do you have `NoImplicitPrelude` somewhere? |
| 17:42:54 | <zero> | no |
| 17:44:08 | <zero> | ghc-pkg base gives me this: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1685555036621 |
| 17:46:37 | <zero> | * ghc-pkg list base |
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| 17:48:13 | <merijn> | zero: See line 105 |
| 17:48:36 | <merijn> | You have a .ghci file that is (presumably) messing with your prompt |
| 17:51:06 | <merijn> | and potentially also a default package environment wreaking havoc (line 1) |
| 17:54:56 | <zups> | http://paste.dy.fi/HeD |
| 17:55:02 | <zups> | anyone know why i get this error message |
| 17:55:22 | <zups> | i don't understand since measure is only applied to one argument and not two like it says |
| 17:55:54 | <geekosaur> | (measure a) is applied to (measure b) |
| 17:56:00 | <zups> | aha hmm |
| 17:56:12 | <geekosaur> | ($) is not magical; it works by precedence |
| 17:56:40 | <EvanR> | I'm heavily questioning the $ there |
| 17:56:51 | <geekosaur> | yes, it should just be removed |
| 17:57:40 | <zups> | max (measure a) (measure b) |
| 17:57:43 | <zups> | so this is more right? :) |
| 17:57:47 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 17:57:54 | <geekosaur> | :t max |
| 17:57:55 | <lambdabot> | Ord a => a -> a -> a |
| 17:58:06 | <geekosaur> | don't need a $ |
| 17:58:20 | <zups> | yeah, i feel like adding the $ prolly too much everywhere and not fully understanding it :) |
| 17:58:35 | <EvanR> | a good rule of thumb is to just not using it at all |
| 17:58:55 | <EvanR> | outsiders gripe haskell uses "too many operators" |
| 17:58:59 | <zups> | :D i see, i thought people loved it in haskell! |
| 17:59:04 | <EvanR> | and $ is often unnecessary |
| 17:59:15 | <zups> | it is but i like it though! |
| 17:59:28 | <EvanR> | by all means, put $ everywhere you can then xD |
| 17:59:35 | <EvanR> | f $ x $ y $ z $ w |
| 17:59:44 | <zups> | heh |
| 18:00:28 | <zups> | is there a way to pattern match if some parameter x is an array |
| 18:00:41 | <zups> | when x has type of a |
| 18:00:47 | <zups> | as in it can be anything |
| 18:01:11 | <EvanR> | how would you do "can be anything" in the first place |
| 18:01:28 | <EvanR> | haskell uses static types |
| 18:01:31 | <zups> | i don't know but i meant this: maxBy :: (a -> Int) -> a -> a -> a |
| 18:01:36 | <EvanR> | oh |
| 18:01:52 | <zups> | and i'd like to know if one of those parameters that has "type" a is an array/list |
| 18:02:04 | <EvanR> | yeah with that type you can't do dynamic type checks |
| 18:02:12 | <zups> | mmm i see |
| 18:02:32 | <EvanR> | there's this :: Typeable a => (a -> Int) -> a -> a -> a |
| 18:02:48 | <EvanR> | the Typeable brings in the ability to do dynamic type checks |
| 18:02:58 | <EvanR> | but consider whether you really want that |
| 18:03:41 | <zups> | yeah, i prolly don't need that for this but good to know |
| 18:05:13 | <zups> | ok got it working, thanks for the help! :) |
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| 18:09:39 | <zero> | merijn: thanks. i had a rogue ~/.ghc folder that had to be deleted |
| 18:10:02 | <zero> | because some stupid apt package decided it was a good idea to have ghc as a dependency |
| 18:11:00 | <zero> | and i have it on .ghcup |
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| 18:16:32 | <mauke> | <EvanR> outsiders gripe haskell uses "too many operators" <- that's what BlockArguments is for |
| 18:16:39 | <mauke> | f do x do y do z do w |
| 18:16:47 | <dy> | Reminded of my PR from almost a decade ago: |
| 18:16:51 | <dy> | https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/2308 |
| 18:16:54 | <dy> | *issue not PR |
| 18:17:41 | <EvanR> | oh good call |
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| 18:19:25 | <merijn> | mauke: call me a grumpy curmudgeon, but I find BlockArguments a terrible idea >.> |
| 18:19:29 | <mauke> | (and yes, I've seen very similar code in a production code base) |
| 18:19:47 | <mauke> | merijn: why? |
| 18:20:00 | <merijn> | dy: cabal shouldn't touch .ghc, I don't think? |
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| 18:20:40 | <merijn> | mauke: The rules for how it gets parsed are too unclear for my brain and it's one of those "death by a thousand papercuts of semantically uninteresting syntax change churn" |
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| 18:21:06 | <merijn> | I *might* be convinced it's a good idea if we were designing a grammar from scratch |
| 18:21:37 | <merijn> | but the gain in expressive power (near zero) doesn't seem worth the syntax churn |
| 18:21:49 | <merijn> | And people keep proposing an endless barrage of minor syntax churn extensions |
| 18:22:05 | <mauke> | speaking as a perl programmer, it makes perfect sense to me :-D |
| 18:22:13 | <mauke> | I never understood why it was disallowed in the first place |
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| 18:22:48 | <merijn> | mauke: A lot of the syntax suggestions I don't think are bad per-se, but the churn and fracturing into a million "almost, but not quite" extension dialects is bad, imo |
| 18:23:39 | <merijn> | Anyway...back to somehow managing to cut 25% of the LOC in my TIS-100 results :p |
| 18:24:20 | <EvanR> | too many versions of haskell, someone should make a universal standard to encompass all of them at once |
| 18:24:49 | <mauke> | I expect it'll congeal into a new standard at some point |
| 18:25:01 | <merijn> | Haskell Prime? :p |
| 18:25:12 | <mauke> | Haskell Plus! |
| 18:25:22 | <merijn> | mauke: Problem is you can't really to it properly without breaking a lot of backwards compat |
| 18:25:26 | <EvanR> | haskell prime plus |
| 18:25:52 | <merijn> | Hot take: operators should require whitespace around them, that's solve both the unary minus (remove it and make it part of lexing of literals) *and* record dot issue |
| 18:26:08 | <merijn> | but you can never retrofit that sensibly' |
| 18:26:12 | <mauke> | technically you could use your argument to argue against hierarchical module names |
| 18:26:49 | <merijn> | mauke: those weren't backwards incompatible, though |
| 18:26:53 | <mauke> | weird parsing rules, near zero gain in expressive power, not backwards compatible |
| 18:27:12 | <mauke> | oh, that's a plus? |
| 18:27:14 | <merijn> | mauke: with backwards compat I mean: doesn't break old code |
| 18:27:41 | <merijn> | i.e. adding hierarchical module names kept all existing code as valid subset |
| 18:27:46 | zero | is now known as zzz |
| 18:27:50 | zzz | is now known as yin |
| 18:27:58 | <mauke> | Just.id |
| 18:28:14 | <mauke> | no, wait |
| 18:28:18 | <mauke> | Prelude.Just.id |
| 18:28:22 | <merijn> | mauke: That's another reason I think we shoulda had spaces around operators :p |
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| 18:43:39 | <yin> | merijn: +1 for whitespace around operators. i have always been a proponent |
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| 18:52:10 | <merijn> | yin: I mean, I'm not a proponent of changing this in Haskell, but certainly if I'd design a grammar from scratch that is the right way to go |
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| 23:33:43 | <juri_> | what the.. my tests just got super flakey. even tests that are unit tests. updated my dependencies. anyone see anything insane in quickcheck today? |
| 23:39:04 | <juri_> | great. yeah, upstream busted me. running "cabal v2-update 'hackage.haskell.org,2023-05-29T21:55:15Z'", then re-running my test suite makes all tests pass. |
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| 23:40:24 | <juri_> | I'm going to go to bed now, and hope someone fixes this before morning. |
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| 23:51:25 | <Axman6> | juri_: have you reported it? |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-05-31.