Logs on 2023-06-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:16:08 | <juri_> | Axman6: haven't determined which dependency yet. |
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| 06:44:26 | <dy> | Urgh |
| 06:44:33 | <dy> | Wait wrong channkx |
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| 06:50:15 | <Hecate> | no no, do complain |
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| 06:57:24 | <gensyst> | I'm finding that putting "threadDelay 10000" right after performGC *makes a difference*. Without the delay, I notice things don't get fully cleaned up. This indicates that performGC is not blocking. Apparently it triggers GC in the background and returns right away. |
| 06:57:33 | <gensyst> | Is there no blocking version of this function? |
| 06:57:38 | <gensyst> | "Wait until GC complete" |
| 07:00:55 | <probie> | call it three times in a row (and possibly sacrifice a goat) |
| 07:02:29 | <c_wraith> | are you using the concurrent gc? |
| 07:03:31 | <gensyst> | c_wraith, how to find out? is that the default in 9.2.7 which I'm on? |
| 07:03:48 | <c_wraith> | it's not the default. You would have had to enable it |
| 07:06:35 | <gensyst> | i didn't do that. |
| 07:06:41 | <gensyst> | so what could this be then hmm |
| 07:10:09 | <gensyst> | ah never mind... |
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| 07:14:32 | <gensyst> | c_wraith, probie found a possible culprit: https://groups.google.com/g/fa.haskell/c/AvH4Vci6M6U |
| 07:14:44 | <gensyst> | search there for "At the moment performGC doesn't actually run any finalizers" |
| 07:14:52 | <gensyst> | however this is from 2004 |
| 07:14:55 | <gensyst> | any changes since then? |
| 07:15:11 | <gensyst> | "I've been wondering whether having a more synchronous kind of finalizer would be a good thing." |
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| 07:28:26 | <probie> | What's a good name for `class Thing t where { map :: (f a -> g a) -> t f a -> t g a; lift :: f a -> t f a }` with the law `lift (f x) = map f (lift x)`? |
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| 07:34:21 | <c_wraith> | probie: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mmorph-1.2.0/docs/Control-Monad-Morph.html#t:MFunctor this doesn't document the law, as it doesn't actually require a MonadTrans instance.. But this is a relatively standard place for that to exist |
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| 08:02:33 | <probie> | Possibly? The objects I'm actually talking about aren't monads though, just functors |
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| 09:04:27 | <ncf> | probie: sounds like MonadTrans, except it doesn't have map |
| 09:04:37 | <ncf> | but most lawful instances do have it, i think? |
| 09:08:09 | <ncf> | i guess categorically what you're describing is a pointed endofunctor in a category of endofunctors |
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| 09:10:00 | <ncf> | or a pointed object in Endo(Endo(Hask)) |
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| 09:48:52 | <tom_> | Should we default to deriving typeclasses or will this strategy lead to undesirable compile times? |
| 09:49:36 | <dminuoso> | tom_: What for? |
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| 09:49:44 | <dminuoso> | And are you talking about Generic instances or not? |
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| 09:50:44 | <tom_> | Not generic |
| 09:50:52 | <tom_> | Lets just say Show and Read |
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| 10:36:36 | <juri_> | ok, bisect and test.. la la la... |
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| 11:09:31 | <lyxia> | probie: it's a pointed functor in the category of functors (or indexed types if f and g are meant to have no structure) https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/pointed+endofunctor |
| 11:11:19 | <dminuoso> | tom_: deriving Show/Read is very quick. |
| 11:11:40 | <dminuoso> | I would consider it negligable in most conceivable scenarios |
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| 11:14:17 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/hints.html?highlight=sooner#sooner-producing-a-program-more-quickly does say "don't derive Read if you don't need it" |
| 11:14:40 | <tomsmeding> | there is 0 reason not to derive Show if you can though |
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| 11:18:32 | <dminuoso> | Fair, for Read I can perhaps see why. |
| 11:18:43 | <dminuoso> | Though in my experience, Read is not a major factor. |
| 11:18:54 | <dminuoso> | Unless you generally write trivial code, dont involve in type heavy stuff, and dont use generics. |
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| 11:19:20 | <dminuoso> | If compilation time is a concern in the first place, chances are you're meddling with tyfams or generics. |
| 11:20:07 | <dminuoso> | However, the main argument for `Read` is that its a really unnecessary and almost useless typeclass. |
| 11:20:31 | <tomsmeding> | yeah probably Read is "slow" only if you don't use the _actually_ slow things |
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| 11:23:17 | <dminuoso> | My main annoyance with compilation time has been Generic really. |
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| 11:23:44 | <dminuoso> | I think its an interface that is so heavily overused, TH is generally much better but breaks cross compilation. |
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| 11:29:42 | <tomsmeding> | will the TH cross-compilation story get better when ghc at some point (soon (tm)) gets better multi-architecture support? |
| 11:29:56 | <tomsmeding> | hm I guess that's a tautology |
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| 12:30:57 | <juri_> | yay, quickcheck seems to generate better randomness, making trash of my property tests. |
| 12:31:18 | <juri_> | BOO, quickcheck seems to now generate better randomness, making trash of my property tests. |
| 12:31:30 | <juri_> | there goes my week. |
| 12:31:31 | <Hecate> | juri_: haha yeah I feel you |
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| 12:35:59 | <juri_> | Hecate: my pain involves floating point, and geometry. let me show you my pain. :) |
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| 12:37:15 | <geekosaur> | I think the invites will be for the new time, which starts next week? |
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| 12:38:11 | <Hecate> | juri_: show me your 🥖 ! |
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| 13:43:58 | <maralorn> | I would like to hear opinions of people how you would name the forward composition operator "flip (.)". I know that some libs/languages use `.>`. My aim is to stay as idiomatic to traditional Haskell as possible. So the aim is to somehow be consistent with $, &, <$> et al. |
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| 13:45:50 | <maralorn> | Additionally I am looking for a name for the forward fmap composition. e.g. `f .>> g = \x -> f x <&> g` would also love to have a consistent name for that. |
| 13:46:14 | <maralorn> | s/<$>/<&>/ |
| 13:47:50 | <monochrom> | Control.Category.Category has >>> which covers flip(.) and other cases. |
| 13:49:09 | <monochrom> | The aim should not be consistency with $ &. |
| 13:49:40 | <monochrom> | Function composition should not be conflated with function application. |
| 13:49:41 | <maralorn> | True, but otoh >>> is a lot to type and two the more general type might lead to confusion. |
| 13:50:12 | <monochrom> | >>> incurs less hand movement than <$>. |
| 13:50:59 | <monochrom> | Experience with hard disks shows that seek time is 1000 times higher than hammer time. |
| 13:51:42 | <maralorn> | Okay, fair. |
| 13:52:34 | <maralorn> | Sadly: I want to write code like `stream & aTransformation >>> anotherTransformation` which doesn’t work because they have the same fixity … |
| 13:52:47 | <maralorn> | * Sadly: I want to write code like `stream & aTransformation >>> anotherTransformation` which doesn’t work because they have the same binding strength … |
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| 13:53:27 | <Guest27> | Hey o/! I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for these questions. I am trying to follow the Haskellbook exercises and one of them is a vigenere cipher (rot but instead of a fixed offset, you use the caracters of a key to determine the offset of each letter of your ciphertext). I have the following solution: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/YKYwnMTI - |
| 13:53:27 | <Guest27> | where I return all my intermediary variables to get a better understanding. What I don't understand, is why the my "k" variable doesn't neatly follow the Char's of my key ("ALLY"). Instead, k gets assigned seemingly random elements of my key... My hunch is that this is related to execution order? But I'm confused :/... |
| 13:53:50 | <monochrom> | Does that mean (stream & aTransformation) >>> anotherTransformation? Or is it stream & (aTransformation >>> anotherTransformation)? |
| 13:54:14 | <maralorn> | monochrom: I would want the later. |
| 13:54:18 | <monochrom> | See, even if they had fixity, who could remember which way it is? |
| 13:54:26 | <monochrom> | I certainly can't. |
| 13:54:44 | <monochrom> | s/had fixity/had different fixity/ |
| 13:55:19 | <maralorn> | It should behave exactly like $ and . but inverted. |
| 13:56:37 | <monochrom> | I can't remember fixity of $ and . either. I just always write (a . b . c) f |
| 13:56:55 | <maralorn> | So where you would write `f . g $ x` you write `x & g .> f`. It kinda reads weird for short functions but it makes sense for multiline expressions. |
| 13:57:07 | <monochrom> | I would write (a . b . c) $ f if $ were compulsory. |
| 13:57:18 | <maralorn> | monochrom: Well, $ always binds weaker than everything. |
| 13:57:50 | <ncf> | Guest27: reading backwards, you get ALLYAALLLYAL |
| 13:58:15 | <ncf> | so nothing unexpected, given that you used foldr and one of your branches keeps k:restOfKey, so you have duplication |
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| 13:59:38 | <monochrom> | I can't remember the fixities of <*> and <|> either so I always write like (a <*> f) <|> (a' <*> f'). |
| 13:59:49 | <monochrom> | Precendence levels are like endianness. |
| 14:00:41 | <Guest27> | Oooohhh! Right! It's reversed because of the foldr. Thanks! |
| 14:00:43 | <maralorn> | Yeah, at that point I would also opt-out of relying on precedence.^^ |
| 14:00:47 | <monochrom> | Actually today in the unix & C course I will reveal to my students that x86 is small endian. |
| 14:01:06 | <monochrom> | I'm pretty sure many of them will ask "why would anyone on earth do this?!" |
| 14:01:46 | <monochrom> | I'm going to ask: How many of you crack your eggs at the small end? How many of you crack your eggs at the big end? |
| 14:01:56 | <monochrom> | And then "there is your answer". |
| 14:02:01 | <Rembane> | I'm cracking my eggs in the middle. |
| 14:02:11 | Rembane | stares accusingly at US dates |
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| 14:02:21 | <geekosaur> | US dates are psycho endian |
| 14:03:10 | <Rembane> | http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/middle-endian.html |
| 14:03:18 | <Rembane> | Indeed |
| 14:03:40 | <Hecate> | geekosaur: hahaha |
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| 14:05:16 | <monochrom> | Hey thanks for the idea, I'll bring up d-m-y vs m-d-y vs y-m-d too! |
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| 14:07:27 | <Rembane> | Sweet! :D |
| 14:08:30 | <merijn> | I still want to one day have the time to work on my maximally malicious C compiler |
| 14:09:04 | <merijn> | i.e. standard compliant, but making the evillest possible choice where possible |
| 14:09:44 | <maralorn> | by the way: <&> also specializes to flip (.), but that’s also super confusing … |
| 14:09:51 | <Rembane> | merijn: So no undefined behaviour, only evil behaviour? |
| 14:09:52 | <monochrom> | First you need to work on any compliant compiler at all. >:) |
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| 14:19:37 | <merijn> | monochrom: ssh |
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| 15:01:04 | <gensyst> | Simon Marlow writes here: https://groups.google.com/g/fa.haskell/c/AvH4Vci6M6U |
| 15:01:04 | <gensyst> | "At the moment performGC doesn't actually run any finalizers. It schedules a thread to run the finalizers, and you hope the thread runs soon." |
| 15:01:04 | <gensyst> | This was in 2004. Apparently this is still true (as shown by threadDelay 10000 after performGC making a difference). |
| 15:01:06 | <gensyst> | Is there still really no way of reliably *waiting* until performGC finishes fully? |
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| 15:08:50 | <merijn> | Define "performGC finishes" |
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| 15:13:51 | <kuribas> | Is there something like a conditional monoid? |
| 15:14:00 | <kuribas> | m -> m -> Maybe m? |
| 15:15:23 | <gensyst> | merijn, wait until performGC ends up with the same thing as performGC >> threadDelay veryLongTime - so that I no longer have to wait this veryLongTime. |
| 15:17:26 | <merijn> | gensyst: I don't understand what you mean, by that |
| 15:18:03 | <merijn> | GC is done as soon as performGC finishes |
| 15:18:33 | <gensyst> | merijn, hmm.. but not according to this i got on #ghc |
| 15:18:35 | <gensyst> | <adamse> .net has a funtion run all pending finalizers. i think ghc should and could have this too. but there is nothing currently |
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| 15:18:44 | <merijn> | gensyst: Finalizers are *not* part of GC |
| 15:18:58 | <merijn> | gensyst: That was sorta my point |
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| 15:19:35 | <merijn> | "is there a way to wait for finalizers to finish?" and is a seperate question from "wait until GC is finished" |
| 15:19:43 | <merijn> | s/and is/is |
| 15:20:04 | <dolio> | Partial monoids are categories. |
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| 15:20:20 | <gensyst> | ok thanks for clarifying |
| 15:21:27 | <merijn> | gensyst: Probably a "perform GC *and* finalizers" function would nice, but I don't think we should modify the meaning of performGC |
| 15:21:52 | <merijn> | gensyst: tbh, if you're a bit handy with C it's probably not even *that* difficult to extend the RTS with a "wait for finalizers" API |
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| 15:38:57 | <yin> | is there a widely used `interactIO :: (String -> IO String) -> IO ()` or did i dream it? |
| 15:39:16 | <kuribas> | dolio: how so? |
| 15:41:06 | <dolio> | kuribas: It's one of the ways of defining a category. The composition of arrows is a partial binary operation that is associative and with a unit. The objects of a category tell you which arrows will successfully compose. |
| 15:41:35 | <dolio> | Saying it's a partial binary operation instead is an objectless way of specifying the same thing. |
| 15:42:36 | <dolio> | It does have some well-behavedness rules. Like, composing with the unit always succeeds, and reassociating doesn't change well-definedness. |
| 15:43:03 | <c_wraith> | yin: seems unlikely... For one, you'd lose the laziness that interact has. For another, once you have IO, you can do output in more controlled ways anyway... |
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| 16:04:40 | <EvanR> | clarify, GC is done as soon as performGC finishes. In the sense that GC is performed at that time, or GC has finished by that time |
| 16:05:22 | <EvanR> | done vs done |
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| 16:47:23 | <ncf> | dolio: so the unit of the monoid serves as a polymorphic id? |
| 16:47:46 | <ncf> | that seems at odds with how you'd think of a category as a partial monoid, by forgetting objects |
| 16:47:48 | <dolio> | Yeah. That's another sort of discrepancy. |
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| 16:50:04 | <EvanR> | category = a bunch of magic lego |
| 16:53:05 | <dolio> | Partial monoid might be a little more restrictive than categories, if you can't make sense of a universal identity like thing. |
| 16:54:57 | <dolio> | The fix is to make the identity operation a pair of mappings on arrows that correspond to 'domain' and 'codomain' maps on the arrows+objects version. But instead the mapping takes an arrow to 'the identity for the (co)domain'. |
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| 16:59:52 | <ncf> | not sure i see how that would work |
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| 17:04:13 | <dolio> | So, like, the usual definition of an internal category is that you have C₁ → C₀ × C₀ reporting the (co)domains of each arrow, and C₀ → C₁ giving the identity arrow, and then a composition operation involving some pullback, right? |
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| 17:06:28 | <dolio> | But, given those first two arrows, you can get a map C₁ → C₁ × C₁ that gives you both identity arrows instead. And instead of the arrows involving a pullback, you have a partial map C₁ × C₁ → C₁. |
| 17:08:14 | <ncf> | right |
| 17:08:26 | <ncf> | using identities as representatives for objects |
| 17:08:48 | <dolio> | Yeah, that's how you get the object version back out. The objects correspond to identity arrows. |
| 17:14:46 | <dolio> | There's other conditions, too. Like, the identities map should just be the diagonal on identities. Although you can throw that out and get really weird structures. |
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| 17:15:34 | <dolio> | Like, where you can have sort of infinite dimensional things where you can always ask for the boundaries, but they never have to bottom out anywhere. |
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| 17:37:34 | <oo_miguel> | how do I manually set/override compilation flags for libraries used within my stack project? |
| 17:38:44 | <oo_miguel> | ah ok, found it |
| 17:39:04 | <sm> | https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/#cabal-flag-management sort of thing ? |
| 17:39:29 | <oo_miguel> | seems I can put a flags: directive in stack.yaml |
| 17:39:41 | <sm> | yup |
| 17:39:44 | <oo_miguel> | e.g. flags: cryptonite : support_aesni: false... |
| 17:40:09 | <oo_miguel> | that's what I was looking for, thanks |
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| 18:10:57 | <jean-paul[m]> | is there a program I can run with two versions of my library and have it tell me which version number to bump in my PVP version? |
| 18:11:49 | <jean-paul[m]> | (if one is the older and one is the newer) |
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| 21:23:34 | <sm> | can our printf elide the decimal places of a Float when they are 0 ? |
| 21:23:56 | <sm> | ie, not show a trailing .0 ? |
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| 21:28:22 | <geekosaur> | > printf "%g" 0.2 :: String |
| 21:28:24 | <lambdabot> | "0.2" |
| 21:28:50 | <geekosaur> | note that if you specify a precision you are explicitly saying to print trailing zeroes |
| 21:28:58 | <geekosaur> | > printf "%.5g" 0.2 :: String |
| 21:29:00 | <lambdabot> | "0.20000" |
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| 21:29:28 | <geekosaur> | but I think you always get .0 |
| 21:29:41 | <geekosaur> | > printf "%g" 2.0 :: String |
| 21:29:43 | <lambdabot> | "2.0" |
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| 21:42:02 | <EvanR> | calling bullshit |
| 21:42:23 | <EvanR> | > printf "%.40g" 0.2 |
| 21:42:24 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 21:42:24 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘a0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M644110186260... |
| 21:42:24 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Show a0)’ from being solved. |
| 21:42:28 | <EvanR> | > printf "%.40g" 0.2 :: String |
| 21:42:29 | <lambdabot> | "0.2000000000000000000000000000000000000000" |
| 21:42:34 | <EvanR> | > printf "%.80g" 0.2 :: String |
| 21:42:35 | <lambdabot> | "0.2000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... |
| 21:42:44 | <EvanR> | rageface |
| 21:43:20 | <geekosaur> | it's exact in binary 🙂 |
| 21:44:32 | <EvanR> | printf is ruby for that gives 0.20000000000000001110223024625156540423631668090820312 for some reason |
| 21:44:35 | <EvanR> | in ruby |
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| 21:45:19 | <geekosaur> | I don't think those digits are even in the range of a Double's mantissa |
| 21:45:35 | <EvanR> | >1/5 in binary notation is 0.001100110011… repeating 0011 ad infinity |
| 21:45:59 | <EvanR> | no but when you convert the exact value of a Double to decimal you can a lot of additional digits |
| 21:46:20 | <geekosaur> | but the mantissa is 1.0 in base 2 |
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| 21:46:41 | <geekosaur> | hm |
| 21:46:56 | <EvanR> | a fifth in base two |
| 21:47:00 | <geekosaur> | keep in mind that the mantissa floats (hence floating point) |
| 21:48:40 | <EvanR> | > printf "%.80g" 0.1 :: String |
| 21:48:42 | <lambdabot> | "0.1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... |
| 21:48:58 | <EvanR> | instead of |
| 21:49:01 | <EvanR> | 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 |
| 21:49:03 | <dolio> | Presumably printf uses the same algorithm that Show uses, which finds the shortest string that will read back into the same number, and fills in with 0s if you demand precision. |
| 21:49:23 | <geekosaur> | oh, bitten by decimal vs. binary, sigh |
| 21:49:29 | <geekosaur> | > decodeFloat 0.2 |
| 21:49:30 | <lambdabot> | (7205759403792794,-55) |
| 21:49:46 | <EvanR> | > decodeFloat 0.5 |
| 21:49:48 | <lambdabot> | (4503599627370496,-53) |
| 21:49:57 | <EvanR> | hard to tell what's exact or not from that xD |
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| 21:51:16 | <EvanR> | I'll ignore the facts and show the haskell behavior to a python person who will conclude haskell is more accurate with the floats |
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| 21:51:24 | <EvanR> | to get more followers |
| 21:54:27 | <dolio> | I think this might be the paper: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/249069.231397 |
| 21:54:49 | <jean-paul[m]> | stare too deeply into the abyss and risk the abyss staring back into you |
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| 21:56:57 | <EvanR> | in godot the default AND printf "%.80g" behavior for floats can display the same string even if the floats are different values. The strategy in that paper would not do that right |
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| 21:57:34 | <EvanR> | i.e. 0.1 and 0.1 plus 1 ULP would display as 0.1 |
| 21:57:52 | <geekosaur> | > logBase 2 4503599627370496 |
| 21:57:53 | <lambdabot> | 52.0 |
| 21:58:25 | <dolio> | Well, yes, if you want printing to remove precision, then using an algorithm that ensures precision is not going to do it. |
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| 21:58:36 | <EvanR> | good |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-06-01.