Logs on 2023-06-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:33:41 | <ghostbuster> | is there a way to terminate a recursive function early based on the output? having trouble wrapping my head around whether it's possible |
| 02:33:54 | <ghostbuster> | eg. find the largest value of n where the nth fibonacci number is < L |
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| 02:35:05 | <pavonia> | You mean a predefined function? |
| 02:35:17 | <monochrom> | 1. s/output/input/ |
| 02:35:32 | <monochrom> | 2. If you don't make a recursive call, you exit the function. |
| 02:35:47 | <ghostbuster> | yeah but i can't exit until i've checked the return value of the recursive call |
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| 02:36:35 | <ghostbuster> | at which point it's too late to return without calling the recursive call |
| 02:37:09 | <monochrom> | That may imply P=NP |
| 02:38:04 | <monochrom> | Hell, it may even imply P=EXPTIME |
| 02:38:40 | <monochrom> | The ability to know the result of a computation and say "I don't want it" without computation. |
| 02:38:48 | <ghostbuster> | hmm |
| 02:40:05 | <ghostbuster> | it's the recursion that makes it tricky - with a regular loop i'd just store n for each round, calculate as far as I need and compare after each round, then return |
| 02:40:38 | <monochrom> | I don't know what you mean by "n". |
| 02:40:58 | <probie> | the nth fibonacci number |
| 02:41:13 | <monochrom> | I don't know how you know how far you "need". |
| 02:41:29 | <ghostbuster> | let's assume it's 4.0 x 10^6 |
| 02:41:45 | <ghostbuster> | i called it L (for limit) |
| 02:42:05 | <ghostbuster> | in other words, it's a given constraint of the problem |
| 02:42:37 | <monochrom> | Is this Project Euler as a way to practice brute force search as a sorry excuse for "learning a language"? Or is this Project Euler as a way to practice math? |
| 02:43:02 | <ghostbuster> | i never said i was sorry |
| 02:43:23 | <monochrom> | Because the former can always be done by takeWhile (< 100) (map fib [0..]) |
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| 02:44:12 | <ghostbuster> | is there a better channel for beginner questions? |
| 02:44:58 | <monochrom> | And the latter, you know the approximation fib(n) = (golden ratio)^n so you just start with (golden ratio)^n < 100 and then solve for n. |
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| 02:46:14 | <Axman6> | ghostbuster: can you paste some code you have that isn;t working? |
| 02:46:17 | <Axman6> | @where paste |
| 02:46:22 | <Axman6> | @where paste |
| 02:46:22 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 02:46:31 | <probie> | ghostbuster: the problem is that you're sort of asking several questions at once |
| 02:47:17 | <ghostbuster> | it's the same one i posted a week or so ago, i'll get a link |
| 02:48:56 | <ghostbuster> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KAvYcwa8 |
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| 02:49:05 | <mauke> | ghostbuster: make your recursive function work like a loop and check n for each round |
| 02:49:38 | <ghostbuster> | it's not n that i need to compare though, it's fib(n) |
| 02:50:36 | <mauke> | ok, then compare the current value in each iteration |
| 02:51:00 | <Axman6> | > dropWhile (<5) [1..10] |
| 02:51:02 | <lambdabot> | [5,6,7,8,9,10] |
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| 02:53:17 | <Axman6> | > let fib; 0 a b = a; fib' n a b = fib' (n-1) b (a+b); fib n = fib' n 0 1; in dropWhile (\(n,fn) -> fn < 400000)) $ map (\n -> (n,fib n)) [1..] |
| 02:53:19 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:8: error: parse error on input ‘;’ |
| 02:54:13 | <probie> | > let fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in length (takeWhile (< 400000) fibs) |
| 02:54:15 | <lambdabot> | 29 |
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| 02:54:45 | <Axman6> | > let fib' 0 a b = a; fib' n a b = fib' (n-1) b (a+b); fib n = fib' n 0 1 in head $ dropWhile (\(n,fn) -> fn < 40000000) $ map (\n -> (n,fib n)) [1..] |
| 02:54:46 | <lambdabot> | (39,63245986) |
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| 02:56:13 | <monochrom> | While we are at it, here is a problem that should have been on Project Euler. |
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| 02:56:42 | <monochrom> | Define g(0)=1, g(n) = g(n-1)+g(n-1). Find n such that g(n) = 2^(10^100). |
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| 02:59:08 | <mauke> | > var $ '1' : replicate 100 '0' |
| 02:59:10 | <lambdabot> | 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... |
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| 03:23:58 | <Axman6> | > 10^100 |
| 03:24:00 | <lambdabot> | 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... |
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| 03:37:00 | <EvanR> | ghostbuster, ignoring the context and just focusing on haskell, you gotta rethink what returning a value from a function call means. Because laziness |
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| 03:37:33 | <EvanR> | evaluating f x could do very little and give you a chance to avoid a lot of additional computation |
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| 03:40:24 | <EvanR> | cycle 1 "returns an infinite deal of 1s" but you don't have to sit there and evaluate them all (or any of them) before continuing |
| 03:44:00 | <EvanR> | so did it really return the value in any sense |
| 03:44:27 | <monochrom> | It did in the denotational sense. |
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| 03:48:47 | <EvanR> | it's like each time I print out the next 1, I return to that recursive call in progress, so I never really left. |
| 03:49:43 | <monochrom> | It says "cycle" right there in the name. :) |
| 03:50:08 | <monochrom> | BTW you're never leaving the carbon cycle either! |
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| 03:50:28 | <EvanR> | challenge accepted |
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| 03:51:55 | <monochrom> | https://youtu.be/o3Si4_0gfJQ (Nobody gets out [of life] alive) |
| 03:53:24 | <EvanR> | signed up for isaac arthur mind upload into matrioshka brain VR |
| 03:53:38 | <EvanR> | I guess that trades carbon for CNO cycle |
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| 12:34:00 | <Inst> | is there a way to speed up the STRef code here? |
| 12:34:01 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/oSpPSxc3 |
| 12:35:07 | <Inst> | The naive accumulator is roughly log n, 50 elements takes 3 times the time of 5 elements |
| 12:35:44 | <Inst> | STref starts 2x as slow as the naive accumulator version, balloons to 6 times slower |
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| 12:37:22 | <probie> | I don't think you're going to be able to make the STRef code much faster. |
| 12:37:44 | <Inst> | i'm wondering if there's a standard STRef overhead |
| 12:37:48 | <Inst> | it's using guarded recursion, obviously |
| 12:39:54 | <dminuoso> | Inst: What if you replace the for_ with an explicit loop? |
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| 12:41:54 | <Inst> | also, curious, wasn't SC with representatives on HF? |
| 12:42:05 | <Inst> | There's this Clojure / Dynamic Typing fanboy |
| 12:42:24 | <Inst> | arguing that SC is preparing to ditch Haskell for Java; SC is apparently hiring combo Haskell / Java devs |
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| 12:44:52 | <Inst> | trying now |
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| 12:45:49 | <geekosaur> | people pointed to facebook and claimed they were ditching haskell a couple months ago. they were as usual wrong. |
| 12:46:20 | <geekosaur> | some people just want to see haskell fall, and will see ghosts in every shadow as a result |
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| 12:47:01 | <Inst> | I was one of the people claiming that facebook was discontinuing some of their Haskell systems, mainly based on a posting in /r/Haskell |
| 12:47:09 | <Inst> | I mean Marlowe's still there |
| 12:47:15 | <dminuoso> | geekosaur: Honestly that claim didnt even hold some very basic research. |
| 12:47:15 | <Inst> | afaik Meta is bigger on OCaml derivatives |
| 12:50:10 | <Inst> | worsened performance |
| 12:50:59 | <dminuoso> | Im fighting with a bit of surprise where optimized code produces 0 for each of those solutions. |
| 12:51:04 | <dminuoso> | Something is strange |
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| 12:52:12 | <dminuoso> | Ahh, I guess Int is not large enough |
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| 12:52:36 | <Inst> | I mean it's not really optimized either way, I guess Bodigrim probably has a primeswing factorial somewhere |
| 12:52:38 | <Inst> | I'd love to see it |
| 12:53:19 | <dminuoso> | Inst: I find it hard to impossible to believe a manual loop could perform worse than for_ |
| 12:53:28 | <dminuoso> | can you share your code? |
| 12:53:30 | <probie> | The tight loop for facAcc produces the assembly you'd expect https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GfmFTNXJ |
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| 12:53:59 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ZEClItMD |
| 12:54:10 | <int-e> | Inst: "i'm wondering if there's a standard STRef overhead" - the contents of an STRef must always be boxed. The accumulator in the pure version can be unboxed. |
| 12:54:20 | <dminuoso> | int-e: That's missing a bang at least |
| 12:54:50 | <dminuoso> | Sorry I meant Inst. |
| 12:54:54 | <Inst> | the log n is implying optimization on O2 |
| 12:55:11 | <int-e> | dminuoso: Hah, I *know* this tab completion bug... |
| 12:55:36 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1114175450533605477/image.png?width=660&height=872 |
| 12:55:56 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Im near confident if you add the missing bang, it will perform the same at least, possibly better. |
| 12:55:59 | <Profpatsch> | Is there a way to DeriveVia through an Iso? |
| 12:56:24 | <Inst> | which bang? |
| 12:56:25 | <Profpatsch> | i.e. if the representations are not the same, but you can whitness the isomorphism, you can derive stuff |
| 12:56:31 | <Inst> | loop !n? |
| 12:56:51 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Yeah. I mean Id be surprised if the strictness analyzer couldnt figure that out, but who knows. |
| 12:57:08 | <Profpatsch> | e.g. data Foo a = Foo { a :: a, b :: Text } is isomorphic to (Compose ((,) Text) Identity), which is Applicative |
| 12:57:17 | <Inst> | waiting on the vec version to finish running, it's slower |
| 12:57:47 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: No. |
| 12:57:53 | <Profpatsch> | dminuoso: thank you |
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| 12:58:26 | <Profpatsch> | (that was sarcastic because just “no” is not helpful) |
| 12:58:33 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: The requirement is as per GHC documentation identical rnutime representation |
| 12:58:51 | <dminuoso> | Well you asked "Is there a way..." |
| 12:58:58 | <dminuoso> | I think `no` is a fairly sufficient response. |
| 12:59:10 | <probie> | dminuoso: I wouldn't be surprised if there's roughly the same speed with `for_` as a manually written loop. I get this core https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ZArl0Lrs for its worker (which never builds a list) |
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| 12:59:29 | <Profpatsch> | dminuoso: but you agree that I can trivially provide any instance for any isomorphic type? |
| 12:59:36 | <dminuoso> | Yes. |
| 12:59:38 | <Profpatsch> | ok |
| 12:59:49 | <Profpatsch> | well, I guess then I’ll have to bite the bullet |
| 12:59:59 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: deriving via is essentially just coerce under the hood. |
| 13:00:06 | <Profpatsch> | (also I wouldn’t be surprised if @kmett had a lens for it or something) |
| 13:00:13 | <Profpatsch> | and some TH |
| 13:01:07 | <Profpatsch> | omg ofc https://www.tweag.io/blog/2020-04-23-deriving-isomorphically/ |
| 13:01:16 | <Profpatsch> | I was still working there when the blog post was released |
| 13:01:26 | <Profpatsch> | I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it before |
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| 13:04:06 | <dminuoso> | Profpatsch: Well its still not automated. |
| 13:04:17 | <Profpatsch> | up to withnessing the isomorphism |
| 13:04:20 | <dminuoso> | It requires manual boilerplate which in the mentioned example iso-deriving provides for some libraries. |
| 13:04:36 | <Profpatsch> | yeah, you can’t get any better than that |
| 13:04:43 | <Profpatsch> | maybe with a TH expression |
| 13:04:48 | <dminuoso> | Yeah, with TH you could. |
| 13:04:49 | <Profpatsch> | but I don’t like those very much |
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| 13:20:28 | <Profpatsch> | seems to work, awesome |
| 13:20:51 | <Profpatsch> | might want to make inj and prj `INLINE` |
| 13:25:21 | int-e | wonders whether Inst's "fifty" is accidentally using 30 as the argument because of cut&paste. |
| 13:25:30 | <Inst> | okay, got it working |
| 13:25:55 | <Inst> | I think it's just that tasty is not reliable |
| 13:26:28 | <Inst> | STref loop beats STRef for sometimes, dies at other times |
| 13:26:50 | <Inst> | there's no way to force unboxing, right? |
| 13:28:17 | <Inst> | re tasty: |
| 13:28:17 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/R7Zk9vfv |
| 13:28:20 | <Inst> | int-e |
| 13:29:07 | <probie> | force unboxing of what? |
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| 13:30:39 | <Inst> | STRef |
| 13:33:01 | Profpatsch | wonders what the easiest way to convert a `Map [Text] a` to a `Tree (Text, a)` is |
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| 13:34:29 | <Profpatsch> | Ah, just use unfoldTree, nvm |
| 13:34:59 | <int-e> | Inst: curious. http://paste.debian.net/1281785/ is what I'm seeing |
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| 13:35:23 | <int-e> | Inst: or https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/fac-criterion.html with the big hammer |
| 13:35:26 | <Inst> | can you pass me your fac list code? Colud be an issue with tasty or windows |
| 13:35:37 | <int-e> | Inst: facList n = product [1..n] |
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| 13:35:43 | <Inst> | ... |
| 13:36:09 | <Inst> | yeah okay, it's just product |
| 13:36:17 | <Inst> | triggering stream fusion |
| 13:37:28 | <probie> | Inst: STRef is explicitly for boxed types, so it can never unbox. |
| 13:38:11 | <Inst> | Type -> Type -> Type |
| 13:38:40 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unboxed-ref-0.4.0.0/docs/Data-STRef-Unboxed.html |
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| 13:39:07 | <int-e> | Inst: (don't forget the type signature. I did that at first and it was much slower than I expected :-P) |
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| 13:39:44 | <int-e> | It should probably be product [2..n] to match the `Acc` version more closely. |
| 13:39:57 | <probie> | you can certainly build your own ref type that can hold an unboxed type (like that library you linked is doing) |
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| 13:41:13 | <int-e> | Yeah an unboxed mutable vector of size 1 would fit that bill, with some overhead. But it will still be a memory cell rather than ending up in a register. |
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| 13:44:27 | <probie> | Also, if we're pedantic, it's not "stream fusion". GHC's list fusion is based on foldr/build and not on streams |
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| 13:49:29 | <Inst> | also, my code makes no sense for 20 and above |
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| 13:49:41 | <Inst> | since int overflow kicks in after 20 |
| 13:50:59 | <Inst> | okay, this is good, using the dead library |
| 13:51:08 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unboxed-ref-0.4.0.0 |
| 13:52:02 | <probie> | Also, if you want to be impressed at GHC's ability to optimise, look at the code it generates for `averageFirst2N` in https://play.haskell.org/saved/Jt1RBhJm with `-O2` (it seems like `-O1` doesn't do enough passes) |
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| 13:56:18 | <Inst> | ehhh, good enough |
| 13:56:27 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1114190723735109815/image.png?width=616&height=894 |
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| 14:08:35 | <Guest64> | > take 5 [1..] ==> [1,2,3,4,5] |
| 14:08:37 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:08:37 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘[a0]’ |
| 14:08:37 | <lambdabot> | • In the first argument of ‘(==>)’, namely ‘take 5 [1 .. ]’ |
| 14:08:52 | <Guest64> | @pl \xs n -> take n xs ==> flip take |
| 14:08:52 | <lambdabot> | flip flip (flip take) . ((==>) .) . flip take |
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| 14:09:42 | <Guest64> | @undo do { x <- getLine; print x } ==> getLine >>= \ x -> print x |
| 14:09:42 | <lambdabot> | getLine >>= \ x -> print x ==> getLine >>= \ x -> print x |
| 14:09:46 | <Inst> | hmmm, question, would STRefU / IORefU benefit from first-class primitives? |
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| 14:09:54 | <ncf> | Guest64: you can use the bot in private messages |
| 14:10:18 | <Guest64> | oh, sorry about that, how do i use private messages? |
| 14:10:30 | <ncf> | /query lambdabot |
| 14:10:44 | <Inst> | would be totally un-Haskelly, but adding the primitives would speed up Haskell for various benchmark games... |
| 14:11:38 | <probie> | Inst: What makes you think it would speed it up? |
| 14:12:05 | <Inst> | i'm getting 50-90% increased times via STRefU |
| 14:12:14 | <Inst> | which works via bytearray length 1 |
| 14:12:22 | <probie> | But still slower than the version which doesn't use ST at all |
| 14:12:45 | <Inst> | vs the version using a naive accumulator |
| 14:13:26 | <Inst> | btw, do we have a C interpreter written in Haskell? |
| 14:13:44 | <geekosaur> | sort of |
| 14:14:07 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/Eelis/geordi |
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| 14:23:51 | <probie> | Inst: out of curiosity, how does https://play.haskell.org/saved/J56GnLvI compare? |
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| 14:40:59 | <Inst> | fused version probie, performs about the same, perhaps very slightyl faster |
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| 14:42:07 | <Inst> | thanks for my first ever look at rewrite rules |
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| 14:43:34 | <carbolymer> | can I have two cabal.project files, one higher in the directory hierarchy, and tell HLS (hie-bios) and cabal to ignore one in $PWD and use the other one from ../ ? |
| 14:43:42 | <Inst> | i declined to rename the thing |
| 14:43:43 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1114202655758221383/image.png?width=668&height=912 |
| 14:44:07 | <Inst> | so it's actually your fused version taking the place of strefu |
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| 14:50:40 | <Inst> | btw, last question for the day, does Haskell have a primeswing / fast factorial somewhere? |
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| 14:54:53 | <tomsmeding> | why on earth does one need to very quickly compute humongous factorials |
| 14:56:02 | <tomsmeding> | "As a starting point, let us look at the performance ranking for n = 2048007" |
| 14:57:10 | <tomsmeding> | that's an 12036216-digit number |
| 14:57:37 | <tomsmeding> | representing that in memory takes >11 MiB |
| 14:57:51 | <tomsmeding> | that that point you have other problems I'd expect |
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| 15:10:00 | <Las[m]1> | What tools do people usually use to write papers on Haskell? |
| 15:11:24 | <jade[m]> | you asked this previously and I didn't understand |
| 15:11:30 | <jade[m]> | are you looking for latex? |
| 15:11:48 | <jade[m]> | s/latex/LaTeX |
| 15:11:58 | <Las[m]1> | What I did |
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| 15:12:16 | <Las[m]1> | I think I forgot that I did and then asked again lol |
| 15:12:31 | <Las[m]1> | Do people usually do it in LaTeX? Then yes. |
| 15:12:59 | <yushyin> | People usually use LaTeX for writing academic papers |
| 15:13:10 | <jade[m]> | I would think so as most scientific papers are written in LaTeX |
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| 15:19:17 | <Inst> | tomsmeding: less that you're computing huge factorials, and more that you're computing a lot of factorials |
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| 15:19:40 | <yushyin> | Maybe some use ConTeXt and some even just use ms office :) |
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| 15:21:02 | <geekosaur> | Inst, memoization helps a lot with lots of factorials |
| 15:23:43 | <Las[m]1> | I'm probably not going to do that then but instead use HTML and MathML. See how it goes. |
| 15:24:13 | <jade[m]> | why not? |
| 15:24:23 | <jade[m]> | (the bridge might have dropped some messages?) |
| 15:24:28 | <geekosaur> | learning curve? |
| 15:24:50 | <jade[m]> | geekosaur: fair enough |
| 15:25:00 | <Inst> | i mean i'm just looking for a replacement for the hgmp solution |
| 15:25:24 | <geekosaur> | took me a while to come up to speed on TeX and LaTeX back when I used it to document a database system |
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| 15:30:22 | <Las[m]1> | Yeah, mostly learning curve, especially when HTML seems like it's probably enough. Papers don't have to be paper-native anyway, and printing HTML into PDFs is pretty good nowadays. |
| 15:31:26 | <jade[m]> | sounde good! |
| 15:31:38 | <jade[m]> | what do you plan to write about? |
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| 15:39:13 | <stefan-_> | Las[m]1, there is https://pandoc.org/ which can transform from markdown to latex/pdf for example |
| 15:39:57 | <EvanR> | HTML for papers, yes the rainbow comic sans and spinning skull gifs really get the point across xD |
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| 15:45:49 | <yushyin> | I want to suggest that maybe asciidoc can be a useful source format |
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| 15:52:55 | <probie> | Rainbow comic sans and spinning skull gifs are important, but nothing makes a document look more professional than liberal use of the marquee tag |
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| 16:23:58 | <chromoblob> | i'm reading some introduction to category theory and noticed that morphisms (except id and compositions of other morphisms) resemble data constructors. in particular, morphisms in a monoid are like ShowS - given g, you can either prepend or append it to any f |
| 16:24:20 | <chromoblob> | is there something more in this line of thought? |
| 16:25:12 | <EvanR> | you can prepend or append any compatible morphism to a morphism, like lego bricks |
| 16:26:07 | <chromoblob> | unary data constructors, i mean |
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| 16:26:13 | <EvanR> | functions f and g with function composition work this way |
| 16:26:26 | <EvanR> | data constructors act like functions |
| 16:26:59 | <EvanR> | :t Just |
| 16:27:00 | <lambdabot> | a -> Maybe a |
| 16:27:04 | <tomsmeding> | Las[m]1: https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/day/lchaskell/2023/05/31?id=974770#trid974770 |
| 16:27:52 | <EvanR> | request a reading of the minutes |
| 16:27:57 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: how large are the factorials that you're computing |
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| 16:29:06 | <chromoblob> | it's like free something |
| 16:29:20 | <chromoblob> | which you can "interpret" |
| 16:30:18 | <EvanR> | free category (given a set of morphisms, or something) |
| 16:31:23 | <EvanR> | a free monoid with types |
| 16:32:13 | <ncf> | some morphisms are like data constructors (for example colimiting cocones, or universal morphisms into a limit), some are more like eliminators, some have nothing in particular to do with datatypes |
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| 16:35:32 | <mauke> | https://mastodon.online/@octonion888/110475127649874191 |
| 16:37:00 | <EvanR> | chromoblob, ah you were introducing an artificial distinction in any category between id, composition of morphisms, and "primitives". A counter example is a category where composition of two morphisms "computes" to some pre-existing morphism that was already there, it's not left "uninterpreted" |
| 16:37:51 | <EvanR> | the classic category with 3 objects, and 3 non-id morphisms x : A->B, y : B->C, and z : C->A |
| 16:38:23 | <EvanR> | which is about as complex a category as I'm able to grasp |
| 16:39:28 | <EvanR> | and I messed that up nonetheless |
| 16:40:10 | <EvanR> | since I didn't list y . x |
| 16:40:31 | <chromoblob> | what i wanted to say is |
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| 16:40:52 | <chromoblob> | any morphism is like a "value with hole" |
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| 16:41:28 | <EvanR> | is this like the monad tutorial analogies |
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| 16:42:10 | <chromoblob> | totally |
| 16:42:23 | <EvanR> | hard to say what morphisms are like in full generality, as opposed to specific example categories |
| 16:42:41 | <EvanR> | beyond what little there is in the definition of a category |
| 16:43:42 | <EvanR> | uniform interface vs particular concrete implementations |
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| 16:44:54 | <chromoblob> | is there a notion of fix : (X `morphism` X) -> (X `morphism` X)? |
| 16:46:41 | <chromoblob> | "left fix" and "right fix" |
| 16:48:20 | <EvanR> | wouldn't fix look more like (X -> X) -> X |
| 16:48:44 | <EvanR> | give or take different kind of arrows |
| 16:49:20 | <bionade24> | What is the better way to write maybe "" id (maybeRes input) `elem` list ? |
| 16:49:37 | <EvanR> | :t fromMaybe |
| 16:49:38 | <lambdabot> | a -> Maybe a -> a |
| 16:49:54 | <EvanR> | @src fromMaybe |
| 16:49:54 | <lambdabot> | fromMaybe d Nothing = d |
| 16:49:54 | <lambdabot> | fromMaybe _ (Just v) = v |
| 16:50:03 | <EvanR> | well that is not what I wanted it to show |
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| 16:50:14 | <bionade24> | thx |
| 16:50:22 | <EvanR> | = maybe d id |
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| 17:39:01 | <hellwolf[m]> | `Just [1] <> Nothing = Just [1]` <-- what would be the most succinct answer to why it is so instead of expecting Nothing should short circuit it? |
| 17:40:03 | <geekosaur> | the Maybe Monoid takes the first/leftmost `Just`? |
| 17:40:42 | <[Leary]> | `instance Semigroup a => Monoid (Maybe a)` pretty much says it all. |
| 17:40:54 | <glguy> | hellwolf[m]: Nothing is the identity element of the Monoid instance |
| 17:41:03 | <glguy> | It needs to be the case that Nothing <> x = x and x <> Nothing = x |
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| 17:41:19 | <[Leary]> | The `Monoid` instance for `Maybe` is that derived by extending a `Semigroup` with an identity. |
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| 17:42:08 | <geekosaur> | oh, I'm thinking `Alternative` |
| 17:43:31 | <hellwolf[m]> | > It needs to be the case that Nothing <> x = x and x <> Nothing = x |
| 17:43:31 | <hellwolf[m]> | Right, yes, the unital law for the monoids |
| 17:43:33 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:44: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 17:43:37 | <hellwolf[m]> | makes sense |
| 17:43:48 | <EvanR> | curious, every monoid is a semigroup. You can append a new element to any semigroup to get a monoid. And there is a theorem that says for any monoid, the identity element is unique xD |
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| 17:44:02 | <EvanR> | so what happens if you append a new identity element to a monoid |
| 17:44:40 | <EvanR> | a rift opens in spacetime collapsing anyone around who tries |
| 17:45:07 | <ncf> | then the old identity element is not the identity element any more |
| 17:45:08 | <geekosaur> | I think the only possible identity element that could be added while obeying the laws is the one it already has |
| 17:45:35 | <ncf> | if m is a monoid, Maybe m is a new monoid with Nothing as the identity element (not Just mempty) |
| 17:45:44 | <glguy> | The old operation isn't defined to work on the new, larger set |
| 17:45:52 | <geekosaur> | or that, yes, if there's more than one way to be a monoid then picking a new identity renders the existing one not an identity any more |
| 17:45:54 | <hellwolf[m]> | the thing is, Either doesn't provide what I needed since Right [1] <> Right [2] = Right [1 |
| 17:45:58 | <hellwolf[m]> | blah... |
| 17:46:19 | <glguy> | hellwolf[m]: just write the function you need and don't worry about reusing the arbitrary choice made in one of those classes? |
| 17:46:22 | <ncf> | (you could say that Maybe is the free-monoid-on-a-semigroup monad) |
| 17:46:44 | <hellwolf[m]> | sure, ad-hoc thing I can always do |
| 17:47:31 | <EvanR> | do you want the First or Last monoid |
| 17:47:42 | <EvanR> | :t First |
| 17:47:43 | <lambdabot> | Maybe a -> First a |
| 17:47:50 | <geekosaur> | I think maybe they wanted it to combine? |
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| 17:49:09 | hellwolf[m] | sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/b8c6b2f4d8be080606f386441694fce6209b897b |
| 17:49:37 | <hellwolf[m]> | a bit ugly and noisy, but couldn't find a out of box single type to achieve it |
| 17:49:54 | <EvanR> | what is the behavior you want actually |
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| 17:50:24 | <Inst> | tomsmeding: it's more the point that fac and fib aren't good introductions to recursion because at least for fib, you'll never want to use that algorithm because matrix / binet is substantially faster |
| 17:50:38 | <Inst> | fac is more complicated to replace, you need a prime generator and primeswing to do the job |
| 17:50:47 | <Inst> | that's what's underneath gmp, and by extension, hgmp |
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| 17:50:59 | <hellwolf[m]> | similar to `Maybe [x] <> Nothing = Nothing`, so that I can use Nothing to shortcircuit everything |
| 17:51:11 | <Inst> | the problem is, i don't know how to do a good prime generator for haskell, and that's actually a key problem on Debian benchmarks |
| 17:51:58 | hellwolf[m] | sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/653417b4e2cf872d2ec3f900c614772f48ef1669 |
| 17:52:09 | <EvanR> | ok Nothing Nothinging out everything is the Monad instance |
| 17:52:09 | <hellwolf[m]> | but what I actually want is a parsing failure. |
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| 17:52:33 | <EvanR> | > Just [1] >> Just [2] >> Nothing |
| 17:52:35 | <lambdabot> | Nothing |
| 17:52:50 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: is there an actual application where using a different algorithm than the naive one for factorial actually improves performance |
| 17:53:14 | <Inst> | i'd imagine, combinatronics? |
| 17:53:19 | <EvanR> | if you want a parser that's another story |
| 17:53:24 | <tomsmeding> | sure, the naive algorithm is quadratic in the result size and you can probably do better, but I mean, we're talking quadratic in the number of digits in the result |
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| 17:53:35 | <Inst> | but as others have said, you can just memoize, and honestly, there's only 20 factorials within int64 |
| 17:53:39 | <tomsmeding> | for that to become expensive the number needs to get ridiculously large |
| 17:53:40 | <tomsmeding> | that |
| 17:54:08 | <tomsmeding> | I mean it's not like you need fib for an actual application any more than you need factorial |
| 17:54:11 | <dolio> | What does any of that have to do with, "intro to recursion," too? |
| 17:54:23 | <tomsmeding> | but at least for fib the faster algorithms are actually simple :p |
| 17:54:32 | <tomsmeding> | so it works as an intro to neat numerical tricks |
| 17:54:41 | <tomsmeding> | and closed form formulae |
| 17:54:52 | <Inst> | literally a one liner in Julia (Matrix solution), takes a while to build up the appropriate infrastructure in Haskell |
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| 17:56:50 | <Inst> | i guess the only real interest of fast factorial would be the prime generator |
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| 17:58:54 | <Inst> | actually, debian benchmarks doesn't have primes |
| 17:59:24 | <[Leary]> | > Ap (Right [1]) <> Ap (Left "failure") -- hellwolf[m] |
| 17:59:26 | <lambdabot> | Ap {getAp = Left "failure"} |
| 18:01:42 | <EvanR> | the associated press monoid |
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| 18:11:51 | <Profpatsch> | I’m going a bit crazy; I need to construct a schema, which is essentially a rose tree, but with the difference that my leaves should be a different type than the elements at the branches |
| 18:12:53 | <Profpatsch> | Is there anything isomorphic to it that already exists and has all the instances, or do I have to write a type out manually and implement stuff |
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| 18:14:09 | <Profpatsch> | In particular, Cofree (Map Text) a is very close and has `unfold` and `shoots` and `leaves` already, and I guess I could make a `Either BranchType LeafType` and just live with the overapproximation and be done with it |
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| 18:17:04 | <probie> | type RoseTree leaf branch = Fix (Compose (Either leaf) (Compose ((,) branch) NonEmpty)) |
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| 18:18:52 | <Profpatsch> | via Fix? huh |
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| 18:20:51 | <probie> | I wasn't serious. The Fix is just so I can define a recursive type with `type` instead of `data`. It's just `data RoseTree leaf branch = Leaf leaf | Branch branch (NonEmpty (RoseTree leaf branch))` |
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| 18:21:40 | <probie> | although I gut the impression what you actually want is something like `data RoseTree leaf branch = Leaf leaf | Branch branch (Map Text (RoseTree leaf branch))` |
| 18:21:44 | <EvanR> | I'm curious how any operations on a normal tree carry over to that |
| 18:22:20 | <Profpatsch> | probie: yeah, exactly that |
| 18:22:37 | <Profpatsch> | I guess I was hoping I don’t have to implement unfolding |
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| 18:25:29 | <ncf> | Free (Compose (Product branch) (Map k)) leaf |
| 18:26:35 | <Profpatsch> | yeah! |
| 18:26:41 | <Profpatsch> | that’s it I guess … |
| 18:26:41 | <probie> | Is unfolding a pain? `unfold :: (a -> Either leaf (branch, [(Text, a)])) -> a -> RoseTree leaf branch` `unfold f x = case f x of { Left l -> Leaf l; Right (b, cs) -> Branch b (Map.fromList (map (fmap (unfold f)) cs)) }` |
| 18:27:00 | <Profpatsch> | probie: that looks like pain to me on a Friday evening :) |
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| 18:28:26 | <probie> | luckily for me it's early Saturday morning, so it's not a pain :p |
| 18:29:15 | <ncf> | (er, (,), not Product) |
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| 18:35:22 | <hellwolf[m]> | I pushed list support now to: https://github.com/hellwolf/haskell-examples/blob/master/2023-06-02-type-level-hlist/type-level-hlist.hs... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e40c9fa6b8aed403399d269576769dbaa29ca0bd>) |
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| 18:42:12 | <Profpatsch> | hellwolf[m]: cute, but is there any benefit over putting the parsers on the value level? |
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| 18:47:17 | <EvanR> | if you want DOOM at the type level, you need to be able to parse wads at the type level |
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| 18:50:39 | <hellwolf[m]> | Profpatsch: I have a project that implements an embedded language inside haskell (the linear haskell subset fwiw) to be compiled to some target virtual machine.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/775a37a7d1cfd97c9356416dfee749b29488ae64>) |
| 18:51:21 | <hellwolf[m]> | Though in fairness, maybe lisp Syntax is more convenient and simplistic, but nothing beats Haskell yet in its type level power and maturity. |
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| 19:28:06 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR: ah, silly me :) |
| 19:28:55 | <Profpatsch> | hellwolf[m]: yeah, but the powerful part about Haskell is the value level programming, not the type level programming :) |
| 19:29:47 | <Profpatsch> | EvanR: Now I’m kinda waiting for a hack that implements a doom VM and makes it interactable during GHC compilation time somehow, on the terminal |
| 19:30:48 | <EvanR> | giving a new meaning to "you can shoot yourself in the foot with this language" |
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| 19:33:17 | <probie> | You could probably write a typechecker plugin that can turn constraints to solve into some kind of UI |
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| 19:35:28 | <probie> | Doom is pushing it, but maybe something like zork? |
| 19:35:44 | <probie> | and if you don't win, your code doesn't compile |
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| 19:40:20 | <MangoIV[m]> | <Profpatsch> "I guess I was hoping I don’t..." <- use a base functor, Fix it then use `unfoldFix` |
| 19:40:36 | <MangoIV[m]> | (or ana, if you want to be fancy) |
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| 19:40:43 | <probie> | e.g. you have an output constraint of what to say to the user, and you also have an input constraint. Given a constraint `(Output "some string", Input context a)`, the type checker plugin prints `"some string"`, waits for input (let's say the user responds `"some input"`) and then returns `Input context "user input"` to GHC |
| 19:41:21 | <probie> | s/user input/some input/ |
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| 19:45:17 | <cheater> | hello |
| 19:45:39 | <cheater> | i wish haskell had a fnord-like word. |
| 19:46:22 | <EvanR> | mu? |
| 19:46:29 | <Rembane> | nu? |
| 19:46:34 | <cheater> | hu? |
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| 21:35:40 | → | tcard joins (~tcard@2400:4051:5801:7500:cf17:befc:ff82:5303) |
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| 21:49:28 | × | cheater quits (~Username@user/cheater) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 21:49:31 | cheater_ | is now known as cheater |
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| 22:42:00 | × | Pickchea quits (~private@user/pickchea) (Quit: Leaving) |
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| 22:46:32 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
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| 22:47:28 | cheater_ | is now known as cheater |
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| 23:45:13 | × | __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving) |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-06-02.