Logs on 2023-06-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:26:05 | <cheater> | how do i use generics-deriving to derive nfdata? |
| 01:26:07 | <cheater> | NFData |
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| 01:28:45 | <EvanR> | looks like they have an example in the docs https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deepseq-1.4.8.1/docs/Control-DeepSeq.html |
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| 07:06:26 | <albet70> | mapK p [] k = k []; mapK p xs k = p (head xs) (\v -> mapK p (tail xs) (\ns -> k (v <> ns))) |
| 07:07:04 | <albet70> | this map with CPS version is confused! |
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| 07:14:11 | <albet70> | mapK p (x: xs) k = p x $ \v -> mapK p xs (\ns -> k $ [v] <> ns) |
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| 14:16:31 | <kriity> | hi friends. on teaching haskell, is it a good idea to avoid using "scary" terminology for people new to the subject at hand? scary as in, terms that either make a very simple concept sound deeper than it is, or things that have an unfair reputation for being more complex than they are |
| 14:16:52 | <merijn> | kriity: You mean "monad"? :p |
| 14:17:00 | <Athas> | I have a cabal project. How can I do an ad hoc compilation of a source file that depends on that project? It is OK for the source file to be located in the same directory as my .cabal file. |
| 14:17:09 | <Rembane> | kriity: If they have never programmed before, go deep on the terminology, otherwise... dunno. |
| 14:17:15 | <Athas> | I.e. I want something more lightweight than adding a new executable target to my .cabal file. |
| 14:17:32 | <kriity> | absolutely monads lmfao. but also just in general |
| 14:17:34 | <geekosaur> | `cabal exec ghc …` might work |
| 14:17:36 | <Athas> | kriity: yes, it is a good idea to avoid unnecessary generality. |
| 14:17:45 | <sm> | Athas: make it a cabal script maybe ? |
| 14:17:57 | <merijn> | Athas: cabal exec although if you have .ghc.environment enabled it might just "work" |
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| 14:18:24 | <Athas> | geekosaur: that sort of works, but I end up having to pass all my dependencies as '-package' flags. |
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| 14:18:33 | <merijn> | kriity: I would just use the standard names for things, finding different "non-scary names" now just means someone has to relearn names |
| 14:18:36 | <Athas> | sm: how do I make a cabal script depend on the package in the current directory? |
| 14:18:51 | <merijn> | Athas: .ghc.environment is supposed to handle the package flags |
| 14:18:51 | <geekosaur> | huh. I would expect it to expose all the dependencies of the project |
| 14:19:00 | <geekosaur> | that's why `cabal exec` in the first place |
| 14:19:08 | <sm[i]> | I'm not sure |
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| 14:19:32 | <Athas> | merijn: .ghc.environment... well, the downside of that is that one of my use cases is distributing small proof-of-concept programs to my collaborators, and having an implicit dependency on an invisible file is guaranteed to cause trouble. |
| 14:19:40 | <merijn> | kriity: FWIW, I taught my girlfriend with, essentially, zero programming experience using all the regular terminology and had zero problems |
| 14:20:09 | <Athas> | geekosaur: hm, it might be that it's actually only the project itself that needs to have an explicit '-package'! At least GHC doesn't compare about not being able to import the mtl modules and such. |
| 14:20:15 | <merijn> | Athas: Well, the only alternative to an implicit dependency seems an explicit one in the form of adding it to the cabal file :p |
| 14:20:33 | <Athas> | merijn: it's OK for there to be an implicit dependency on things I know they will have. |
| 14:20:37 | <sm[i]> | well, the way I do that is make it a `stack runghc ...` script rather than a `stack script ...` script. Maybe cabal can do similar |
| 14:21:26 | <kriity> | merijn: honestly, i'm more worried about experience getting in the way. i have a suspicion that i would've had an easier time learning Haskell had i not known C. |
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| 14:22:09 | <Athas> | Cabal scripts work very well when all your dependencies are on Hackage, but they are not in this case. |
| 14:22:29 | <Athas> | Oh wait, I can also put cabal.project info in cabal scripts, right? |
| 14:23:24 | <merijn> | Athas: Maybe? |
| 14:23:25 | <kriity> | also i should've mentioned i was planning on still giving the standard terminology, but not naming anything until they're reasonably comfortable with the concept being named. at that point, preconceptions are hopefully out of the way |
| 14:23:41 | <Athas> | No, doesn't look like it works. |
| 14:23:51 | <Athas> | kriity: exactly which terms are you considering not mentioning? |
| 14:23:54 | <sm[i]> | #!/usr/bin/env -S cabal exec runghc ? |
| 14:24:13 | <Athas> | kriity: and are these people new to programming, or just to Haskell? |
| 14:25:07 | <Athas> | I cannot explain why, but 'cabal exec runghc' seems to ignore '-package' ('cabal exec ghc' does not). |
| 14:25:33 | <geekosaur> | runghc has some odd parameter requirements |
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| 14:26:08 | <sm[i]> | maybe add a -- before or after the option |
| 14:26:22 | <geekosaur> | sometimes you have to use `--ghc-arg=-package --ghc-arg=pkgname` |
| 14:26:37 | <kriity> | Athas: the type of people who have only ever touched languages like Python; high school kids who like programming and want to go further, but have only done it in mediocre coding courses. |
| 14:27:29 | <geekosaur> | or just make sure `-package` comes before the program name; this isn't gnu getopt |
| 14:29:30 | <Athas> | Oh, that works (also it must be -package=foo for some reason). |
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| 14:29:57 | <Athas> | I wonder why compilers as an application domain seem unusually inconsistent about command line options. GHC isn't really unique in this regard. |
| 14:30:20 | <Athas> | kriity: don't invent simpler names for established concepts (e.g. Monad), but try to avoid having to talk about super generic or abstract things. |
| 14:30:27 | <Athas> | But you really cannot avoid monads in Haskell. |
| 14:31:04 | <sm> | command line parsing is hard |
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| 14:31:29 | <Athas> | getopt is decades old. |
| 14:31:45 | <Athas> | Parsing Haskell is much harder, yet GHC does a pretty good job at that. |
| 14:31:56 | <sm> | seems wise to make a really good one on day 1, so tools will have good CLIs |
| 14:32:04 | <kriity> | Athas: i'll stay with that, ta |
| 14:32:23 | <Athas> | kriity: which terms were you concerned with? |
| 14:32:29 | <geekosaur> | in the case of runghc, it has to distinguish between (a) its own parameters, (b) ghc parameters, (c) program parameters |
| 14:33:13 | <geekosaur> | so in particular options intended for ghc come before the program name, options intended for the program come after it |
| 14:33:38 | <Athas> | Yes, looking at the runghc documentation it's actually sane, but since it forwards unknown options to GHC, it inherits GHC's inconsistency. |
| 14:33:51 | <sm> | (d, e, f) sometimes RTS parameters for any of those |
| 14:34:58 | <geekosaur> | no (f), ghc is doing the running in interpreted/ghci mode so you give ghc the rts options intended for the program |
| 14:36:16 | <merijn> | sm: The RTS handling of RTS parameters is fairly sane and predictable, though |
| 14:36:36 | <kriity> | Athas: terms that have different meanings in functional/imperative contexts, Monad of course (i'm explaining monads, just nervous about the word itself), and a few simpler things like "referential transparency". it might seem a little silly, but i'm nervous considering the target audience. |
| 14:36:36 | <sm> | say you want to limit memory for ghc, or for your program, don't you have to write those differently ? |
| 14:36:38 | <merijn> | i.e. RTS options prior to -- are interpreted by the program, options after -- are nnot |
| 14:37:07 | <geekosaur> | sm, there's no difference when ghc is interpreting |
| 14:37:14 | sm | is speaking of ghc not runghc now |
| 14:37:25 | <geekosaur> | this might be regarded as a shortcoming of BCO |
| 14:38:03 | <merijn> | sm: No? Unless you mean the use of -rtsopts to set your program's runtime options at compile time |
| 14:38:09 | <Athas> | kriity: well, for "referential transparency" you can explain the idea (which is simple). You can mention the fancy word, but they don't really have to understand or remember it. |
| 14:38:11 | <geekosaur> | (in particular I could imagine wanting separate limits on TH which also uses BCO, especially with external-interpreter for crossplatform or JS/WASM) |
| 14:38:17 | <merijn> | sm: But I don't think that matches what you're describing? |
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| 14:38:56 | <sm> | well I'm not following exactly but just making the point that applying RTS options to different things adds still more complexity |
| 14:38:58 | <kriity> | Athas: that's the plan :D |
| 14:39:02 | <sm> | command line parsing gets complex fast |
| 14:39:55 | <geekosaur> | the context is runghc, which means ghc is first compiling to bytecode and then running the bytecode. and while it would make sense for the two to have separate rts options, currently they don't |
| 14:41:01 | sm | was speaking about command line parsing generally not runghc |
| 14:41:12 | <merijn> | sm: It's clearer if you talk about, say, runghc/cabal run, but that's pretty consistent in that "cabal +RTS foo -RTS run bar", "cabal run +RTS foo -RTS bar", and "cabal run bar +RTS foo" all mean the same thing (RTS applies to cabal) and "cabal run bar -- +RTS foo" indicates that they apply to the bar executable, not cabal) |
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| 15:06:44 | <albet70> | what's the benefit of CPS? |
| 15:08:27 | <merijn> | albet70: compared to? |
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| 15:17:12 | <albet70> | regular expressions? |
| 15:18:31 | <c_wraith> | those two things don't even seem comparable |
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| 15:28:23 | <geekosaur> | I think "normal expressions" was what was intended, and possibly the real question is "why does GHC use CPS transforms"? |
| 15:29:42 | <c_wraith> | oh. hah. Too early for me to even read the phrase "regular expressions" as english words rather than jargon |
| 15:30:16 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I did a doubletake at first as well |
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| 15:35:29 | <albet70> | actually I thought to use 'normal expressions', but I don't know if it's proper, my mother language isn't English |
| 15:35:50 | <geekosaur> | it's fine |
| 15:36:20 | <geekosaur> | and "regular expression" is fine if you're not talkking to geeks whose first thought is "regex" |
| 15:36:25 | <geekosaur> | 🙂 |
| 15:36:31 | <c_wraith> | yeah, that one's on us. :) |
| 15:37:26 | <ncf> | that seems like it should at least be a subset of people you could ask about CPS |
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| 15:39:25 | <Athas> | GHC uses CPS? |
| 15:39:39 | <merijn> | Athas: Core is in CPS, no? |
| 15:39:48 | <dolio> | No. |
| 15:40:05 | <geekosaur> | core isn't iirc but the transform happens shortly afterward iirc |
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| 15:41:05 | <geekosaur> | early enough that it's apparently a pain for the llvm backend to try to annotate it even if llvm ir supported such annotations |
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| 15:43:01 | <albet70> | I suddenly think that Java in android programming uses a lot of CPS, you can pass an object or a lambda which that can take some results, abstract class |
| 15:44:09 | <geekosaur> | CPS is fairly common in modern UI programming, although it's not often called that |
| 15:44:22 | <geekosaur> | but a lot of JS UI stuff is CPS |
| 15:44:46 | <geekosaur> | for example |
| 15:45:33 | <dolio> | All JS is/was about CPS for a while. They just don't call it CPS. |
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| 15:48:30 | <dolio> | I don't think GHC ever actually uses CPS, unless that's relatively recent for the join point stuff and the like. |
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| 15:49:25 | <dolio> | But I thought the whole point of that was to develop more direct-style notions that give you some of the capabilities of CPS. |
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| 15:50:06 | <merijn> | dolio: It's possible my brain just "like CPS if you squint a bit" to CPS :p |
| 15:50:12 | ski | . o O ( "Web Programming" (CPS) by Eli Barzilay at <https://tmp.barzilay.org/cont.txt> ) |
| 15:51:13 | <dolio> | In the past, it uses something more like ANF, which has a structure that corresponds to CPS in a way, but isn't CPS (there's probably stuff in CPS that you can't really express in ANF). |
| 15:51:59 | <dolio> | ANF is like, normalize everything so that you only apply to variables. So, you have to let/name every intermediate result. |
| 15:52:09 | <Athas> | ANF is great. Best friend. |
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| 15:54:25 | <EvanR> | and jquery is monads but they don't call it that (probably for the best) |
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| 15:55:24 | <sm> | 🤯 |
| 15:55:45 | <albet70> | that article too loong |
| 15:56:09 | <dolio> | It's good because it's poorly behaved in ways that make it not a monad. :þ |
| 15:56:48 | <dolio> | So telling people it is one would be misleading them about the correct definition of things. |
| 15:57:10 | <EvanR> | albet70, back when articles had actual information and were longer than 1 sentence surrounded by a sea of ads |
| 15:57:13 | <albet70> | in scheme they use call/cc to capture the rest computation, and call/cc can transform to CPS, how CPS would capture the rest computation? |
| 15:58:15 | <ski> | every call in CPS is a tail call |
| 15:59:13 | <dolio> | Yeah, in CPS, every computation is called with the rest of the computation as an argument. |
| 15:59:39 | <dolio> | And the last thing it does is call the rest of the computation. |
| 16:00:00 | ski | . o O ( "Escaping Hell with Monads" by Philip Nilsson in 2017-05-08 at <https://philipnilsson.github.io/Badness10k/escaping-hell-with-monads/> ; "Flattening Callback Chains with Monad Do-Notation" by Remko Tronçon in 2015-07-02 at <https://el-tramo.be/blog/async-monad/> ) |
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| 16:01:31 | <EvanR> | there was a proposal last year to add a new do notation-like thing to elixir, but it would only, after scrutinizing the whole proposal, amount to the state monad |
| 16:02:02 | <EvanR> | I performed a ritual making it more likely the proposal would fail |
| 16:02:17 | <albet70> | f x (\v -> ...) when f is with CPS and v is the result of f, \v -> is the rest computation |
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| 16:09:05 | <EvanR> | the escaping hell article is super effective |
| 16:12:24 | <sm> | agreed! |
| 16:13:41 | ski | . o O ( "The Mercury Language Reference Manual: Clauses" : "3.4 State variables" <https://www.mercurylang.org/information/doc-latest/mercury_ref/Clauses.html#State-variables>,"3.8 Definite clause grammars" <https://www.mercurylang.org/information/doc-latest/mercury_ref/Clauses.html#Definite-clause-grammars> ) |
| 16:14:04 | <ski> | albet70 : sometimes multiple continuations |
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| 17:31:25 | <hamzam3> | Hello everyone, in the paper of TH it mentions that brackets cannot be nested directly in this manner: |
| 17:31:36 | <hamzam3> | [| f [| x |] |] |
| 17:32:02 | <hamzam3> | Why is that ? If the bracket is just syntactic sugar for Q Exp construction ? |
| 17:32:47 | <hamzam3> | You can't have values of type Q Exp that correspond to a Q Exp expression |
| 17:33:30 | <hamzam3> | ? |
| 17:34:36 | <Rembane> | Can Exp be Q Exp? |
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| 17:35:30 | <Rembane> | Because if it can't it all falls over due to types |
| 17:35:31 | <hamzam3> | Can you have a Q Exp that represents a Q Exp ? |
| 17:36:14 | <hamzam3> | Also a question, why is the Q construction of type `m Exp -> Q Exp` ? |
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| 17:45:28 | <hamzam3> | Would something like this be equivalent ? |
| 17:45:29 | <hamzam3> | [|f (Q $ return (VarE $ mkName "x"))|] |
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| 17:49:24 | <hamzam3> | I think that yes |
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| 17:49:55 | <hamzam3> | qexp :: Q Exp |
| 17:49:55 | <hamzam3> | qexp = [|(Q $ return (UnboundVarE $ mkName "x"))|] |
| 17:50:03 | <hamzam3> | u :: Q Exp |
| 17:50:03 | <hamzam3> | u = $j |
| 17:50:17 | <hamzam3> | u = $qexp |
| 17:50:23 | <hamzam3> | sorry |
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| 18:17:18 | <k``> | How do I use the type function `GHC.TypeLits.*` ? I can't figure out how to convince GHC that I don't mean `Type`. |
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| 18:19:49 | <ncf> | k``: NoStarIsType |
| 18:21:07 | <k``> | Thanks. |
| 18:21:31 | <k``> | Read "No, Star is Type." |
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| 18:22:33 | <EvanR> | beep once if star is type, twice if it's not. |
| 18:22:49 | <EvanR> | that settles it, YES YES |
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| 18:24:26 | <ncf> | NoNoNoStarIsn'tn'tType |
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| 18:26:35 | <mauke> | I want StarIsTypeButAsteriskIsNot |
| 18:27:04 | <k``> | :set -XNoNonUnicodeSyntax |
| 18:27:38 | <mauke> | hell yeah |
| 18:27:57 | <mauke> | unfortunately, ASCII is a subset of Unicode |
| 18:28:39 | mauke | disables UnicodeSyntax, has to code in EBCDIC |
| 18:29:07 | <glguy> | Works on contingency(?) No(,) Money down(!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuL6PcgSgM |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-06-09.