Logs on 2023-06-11 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:04 | × | harveypwca quits (~harveypwc@2601:246:c180:a570:3828:d8:e523:3f67) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | jargon quits (~jargon@184.101.75.235) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | remedan quits (~remedan@ip-94-112-0-18.bb.vodafone.cz) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Patternmaster quits (~georg@user/Patternmaster) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | hrberg quits (~quassel@171.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | SoF quits (~skius@user/skius) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | _d0t quits (~{-d0t-}@user/-d0t-/x-7915216) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | p3n quits (~p3n@2a00:19a0:3:7c:0:d9c6:7cf6:1) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Inst quits (~Inst@2601:6c4:4081:2fc0:ed66:a694:f2c2:7aeb) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Cale quits (~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | lawt quits (~lawt@129.159.36.129) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Vajb quits (~Vajb@2001:999:484:a37d:e618:9886:4843:f5d8) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | YoungFrog quits (~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | perrierjouet quits (~perrier-j@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | motherfsck quits (~motherfsc@user/motherfsck) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | jludwig quits (~justin@li657-110.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | tolt quits (~weechat-h@li219-154.members.linode.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | arkeet quits (arkeet@moriya.ca) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | hiredman quits (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | truckasaurus quits (sid457088@id-457088.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | berberman quits (~berberman@user/berberman) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | echoreply quits (~echoreply@2001:19f0:9002:1f3b:5400:ff:fe6f:8b8d) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | AkechiShiro quits (~licht@user/akechishiro) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | hsw quits (~hsw@2001-b030-2303-0104-0172-0025-0012-0132.hinet-ip6.hinet.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Ranhir quits (~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | totbwf quits (sid402332@id-402332.uxbridge.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Putonlalla quits (~Putonlall@it-cyan.it.jyu.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | kritzefitz quits (~kritzefit@debian/kritzefitz) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | acidsys quits (~crameleon@openSUSE/member/crameleon) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | meooow quits (~meooow@165.232.184.169) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | carter quits (sid14827@id-14827.helmsley.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Boarders___ quits (sid425905@id-425905.lymington.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Fangs quits (sid141280@id-141280.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | liskin quits (~liskin@xmonad/liskin) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | koala_man quits (~vidar@157.146.251.23.bc.googleusercontent.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | zups quits (~meow@2a01:4f9:c010:6036::1) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | kawzeg quits (kawzeg@2a01:7e01::f03c:92ff:fee2:ec34) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | ggVGc quits (~ggVGc@a.lowtech.earth) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Guest3469 quits (~m-mzmz6l@vmi833741.contaboserver.net) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | xnbya quits (~xnbya@2a01:4f8:c17:cbdd::1) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | opqdonut quits (opqdonut@pseudo.fixme.fi) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Hecate quits (~mariposa@user/hecate) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | theodorc quits (theodorc@cassarossa.samfundet.no) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | [_________] quits (~oos95GWG@user/oos95GWG) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | pie_ quits (~pie_bnc@user/pie/x-2818909) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | polux quits (~polux@51-15-169-172.rev.poneytelecom.eu) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | Athas quits (athas@sigkill.dk) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | edm quits (sid147314@id-147314.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | mustafa__ quits (sid502723@id-502723.hampstead.irccloud.com) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | glguy quits (~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | aku quits (~aku@static.241.245.108.65.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | ghostbuster quits (~admin@user/ghostbuster) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:04 | × | aforemny quits (~aforemny@static.248.158.34.188.clients.your-server.de) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:05 | × | bastelfreak quits (bastelfrea@libera/staff/VoxPupuli.bastelfreak) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:05 | × | V quits (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) (*.net *.split) |
| 00:00:05 | × | bjobjo quits (~bjobjo@user/bjobjo) (*.net *.split) |
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| 00:00:15 | → | arkeet joins (arkeet@moriya.ca) |
| 00:00:17 | → | hiredman joins (~hiredman@frontier1.downey.family) |
| 00:00:17 | → | hrberg joins (~quassel@171.79-160-161.customer.lyse.net) |
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| 00:00:19 | → | Patternmaster joins (~georg@li1192-118.members.linode.com) |
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| 00:00:25 | → | aforemny joins (~aforemny@static.248.158.34.188.clients.your-server.de) |
| 00:00:26 | → | ggVGc joins (~ggVGc@a.lowtech.earth) |
| 00:00:27 | → | root joins (~m-mzmz6l@vmi833741.contaboserver.net) |
| 00:00:27 | → | Inst joins (~Inst@2601:6c4:4081:2fc0:949e:98f6:4469:1ea7) |
| 00:00:27 | → | perrierjouet joins (~perrier-j@modemcable048.127-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 00:00:27 | → | Cale joins (~cale@cpe80d04ade0a03-cm80d04ade0a01.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 00:00:31 | → | truckasaurus joins (sid457088@id-457088.helmsley.irccloud.com) |
| 00:00:34 | → | Ranhir joins (~Ranhir@157.97.53.139) |
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| 00:00:36 | → | liskin joins (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) |
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| 00:00:45 | → | tolt joins (~weechat-h@li219-154.members.linode.com) |
| 00:00:50 | × | Patternmaster quits (~georg@li1192-118.members.linode.com) (Changing host) |
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| 00:01:13 | × | liskin quits (~liskin@ackle.nomi.cz) (Changing host) |
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| 00:01:30 | root | is now known as Guest2244 |
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| 00:02:26 | → | V joins (~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V) |
| 00:02:28 | → | YoungFrog joins (~youngfrog@39.129-180-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 00:02:33 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 00:02:35 | → | glguy joins (~glguy@libera/staff-emeritus/glguy) |
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| 01:01:20 | × | Inst quits (~Inst@2601:6c4:4081:2fc0:949e:98f6:4469:1ea7) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
| 01:01:56 | × | nek0 quits (~nek0@2a01:4f8:222:2b41::12) (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) |
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| 13:22:23 | <cheater> | can i get some haskell posts please https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackboards/ |
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| 13:25:01 | <cheater> | hey Cale do you remember who it was on efnet #math who had an ftp site and would always say "i have detailed files" when a topic they had detailed files on was brought up |
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| 18:06:39 | <sukil> | hi, a technicality that is bugging me for some reason: a module header starts with `module x where`. After that, I always see that the indentation level is the same one as the header line. I think that after the where a brace should be inserted in that context, but skimming through the standard this doesn't seem to be the case. So, which one is right? Thanks very much! |
| 18:06:50 | <sukil> | (And sorry for the really esoteric question) |
| 18:08:56 | <Athas> | Good question. The 98 Report has examples where the module contents are indented, but clearly that is not the norm in Haskell. |
| 18:14:01 | <geekosaur> | I think it's allowed just because you can't have a second module declaration in the same file |
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| 18:14:10 | <geekosaur> | so it's unambiguous |
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| 18:20:39 | <Athas> | geekosaur: in Haskell 98 you can have multiple modules in the same file. |
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| 18:33:09 | <monochrom> | The Haskell Report has examples of both. |
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| 18:34:33 | <monochrom> | The layout rules have a special rule for "module". |
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| 18:50:28 | <sukil> | oh, where? If I search for "module" in the layout rules I can't find anything (both in the formal and informal descriptions) |
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| 19:49:14 | <chromoblob> | can haskell have no GC?... |
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| 19:50:05 | <geekosaur> | jhc didn't have gc, although it was being reworked to add support for boehm gc when john stopped development |
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| 19:50:42 | <geekosaur> | http://repetae.net/computer/jhc/ |
| 19:50:43 | <chromoblob> | did it leak memory? |
| 19:50:50 | <pyrex> | whoa, really? that's intense! |
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| 19:51:02 | <pyrex> | i would not expect haskell to work well without a GC -- i don't know when anything would be freed |
| 19:51:27 | <geekosaur> | I don't know details, it was pretty much already dead when I found out about it 😞 |
| 19:52:52 | <pyrex> | to be specific: I think languages without a GC usually work because values are either freed manually, or they are known to be freed in very definite cases |
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| 19:53:44 | <pyrex> | i do not know how to translate the simple automatic freeing rules that C++ uses into haskell! and i do not think haskell has a manual free operation |
| 19:53:53 | <geekosaur> | there may also be questions as to what counts as "no gc" — for example some may count refcounting as "no gc", as distinct from mark-and-sweep or etc. |
| 19:53:59 | <pyrex> | there may be more complicated automatic freeing rules that would work for haskell. (rust is a language with complicated automatic freeing rules!) |
| 19:54:07 | <pyrex> | oh yes, valid observation! |
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| 19:55:17 | <pyrex> | iirc ur/web uses arena allocation? i feel that would work in haskell, although one could argue that it is spiritually close to mark and sweep |
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| 20:19:05 | <[exa]> | jhc was whole-program-analyzing compiler? |
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| 20:19:57 | <geekosaur> | iirc yes |
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| 20:20:20 | <geekosaur> | but it didn't handle very large programs; it was more of a proof of concept |
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| 20:33:07 | <[Leary]> | GHC is also a whole-program compiler, you just need to write your whole program in one module. |
| 20:33:49 | <monochrom> | I don't think that's the definition. |
| 20:35:02 | <monochrom> | In principle, you can blame the poorly chosen name instead. The name should be the much longer "unable to perform separate compilation even if you try" or something even longer and more accurate. |
| 20:35:46 | <monochrom> | GHC does separate compilation, obediently every time you ask, so it doesn't count. |
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| 20:36:43 | <monochrom> | Just a few days ago I explained in lecture the C library functions feof and ferror, and reminded students that meaningful names are lies. |
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| 20:39:09 | <monochrom> | Perhaps meaningful names can be honest when written negatively. All silver linings have tarnish. |
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| 20:40:27 | <monochrom> | JHC is an unseparable compiler. feof should be f_cant_tell_eof_unless_you_have_just_read. |
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| 20:41:51 | <pyrex> | i will opine that it's not desirable for a compiler to do large amounts of work related to the thing you're now calling at each new callsite of the thing |
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| 20:42:05 | <EvanR> | pyrex, just map 1T into memory and let the OS sort it out xD |
| 20:42:06 | <pyrex> | which is a risk of certain template systems and some strategies for whole program compilation |
| 20:42:32 | <EvanR> | (1T of memory would be gone very quickly in haskell without gc so better hurry up and terminate) |
| 20:42:39 | <pyrex> | EvanR: rip =( |
| 20:43:10 | <monochrom> | Just bump it up to 2T :) |
| 20:43:23 | <EvanR> | 1T + 2T + 3T + 4T + ... |
| 20:43:35 | <EvanR> | 1 / 1 - T |
| 20:43:45 | <monochrom> | Actually I tested out GHC 9.2 and 9.6, they don't really do that any more. |
| 20:44:06 | <jade[m]> | EvanR: -1/12 T? |
| 20:44:28 | <monochrom> | That would be 1T - 1T + 1T - 1T ... |
| 20:45:08 | <darkling> | Which, as we all know, converges to both 1T and 0T. :) |
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| 20:46:06 | <EvanR> | this must be the woke math they are afraid of in florida |
| 20:46:11 | <jade[m]> | it diverges into convergence |
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| 20:46:31 | <jade[m]> | EvanR: gay math |
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| 20:47:23 | <EvanR> | darkling, non-deterministic series. Which is why it's isomorphic to the List type |
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| 20:48:08 | <monochrom> | That would be list of list... |
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| 21:15:19 | <nyc> | Anybody else at Zurihac? |
| 21:18:46 | <hammond> | I'm there in spirit but not in body. |
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| 21:20:16 | <nyc> | hammond: Cheers! I should find the other IO people at some point. |
| 21:20:51 | <Cale> | cheater: No sorry, I never hung around on efnet #math |
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| 21:21:10 | <cheater> | oh ok i thought you did |
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| 21:22:34 | <nyc> | I used to be on EfNet #math like 15-25 years ago, but I was far from being a very valuable resource there. |
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| 21:41:15 | <Guest83> | to teach myself more haskell, i've got a simple 2D / sprite sort of game thing in mind. Looks like "Keid" or "Twirl" are two libraries that look relevant and have had a release relatively recently. Any others to consider / look at? |
| 21:41:48 | <EvanR> | there's gloss which is great for getting simple stuff on screen quickly |
| 21:42:29 | <cheater> | nyc: do you know who it was? |
| 21:42:38 | <Guest83> | i think i've looked at that, but I do specifically want sprites (i.e. "8-bit" style stuff) |
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| 21:42:58 | <Guest83> | (gloss looks vector-oriented?) |
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| 21:43:28 | <EvanR> | 8-bit style stuff is a subset of "function from euclidean plane to color" but I see what you might mean, you want everything to be presented to you on a grid or something |
| 21:43:45 | <EvanR> | gloss does let you splat sprites as one of its features |
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| 21:44:44 | <EvanR> | SDL2 is still god as far as hardcore pixel games though, if you don't want to go to a real engine (read, not haskell) |
| 21:44:59 | <Guest83> | ah, okay (yeah, "probably" going to go with "LPC" / liberated pixel cup since there's tons of assets etc for that) |
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| 21:46:03 | <EvanR> | LPC is haskell? :squints: |
| 21:46:08 | <Guest83> | EvanR yeah, "one" point is "learn haskell" ;) or I guess I'd do more c++ programming again if I wanted to be game-compliant. |
| 21:46:26 | <Guest83> | EvanR no, but i'm not a pixel artist and there's tons of open-content art for it (characters, tilesets etc) |
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| 21:47:16 | <Guest83> | https://lpc.opengameart.org/ |
| 21:47:23 | <geekosaur> | you might also ask over in #haskell-game |
| 21:47:54 | <EvanR> | opengameart is great for sprite sheets |
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| 21:48:18 | <nyc> | cheater: Do I know who who was? |
| 21:48:48 | <Guest83> | geekosaur thanks! |
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| 21:56:28 | <nyc> | Is hmatrix still being updated? |
| 21:58:06 | <EvanR> | github master reports merge of something with commits from Apr 26 2023 |
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| 22:17:27 | <cheater> | nyc: who it was on efnet #math who had an ftp site and would always say "i have detailed files" when a topic they had detailed files on was brought up |
| 22:17:34 | <cheater> | or "i have detailed notes" or something |
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| 23:08:44 | <nyc> | cheater: I don't remember that. What years would this have happened? I was probably most active on EfNet #math from 1995-2000. |
| 23:09:18 | <cheater> | around that time. |
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| 23:10:21 | <nyc> | cheater: Sorry, I don't remember it. |
| 23:10:29 | <cheater> | it's ok |
| 23:10:32 | <cheater> | i wonder if anyone has logs |
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| 23:31:22 | <probie> | Is there a safe way to use the new delimited continuation ops in GHC from pure code? Not mixed in, but something akin to `runST`. Can I just call runRW# and hope for the best? |
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| 23:56:03 | <c_wraith> | probie: nope. There's no high-level interface exposed because they're only safe if you additional requirements. |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-06-11.