Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-06-20 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:35:02 <Umeaboy> dolio: Yeah. I'm wokring on porting it now........ some deps are a hassle.
00:35:34 <Umeaboy> Especially some texlive based ones as some of them are outdated/no longer publicly maintained.
00:36:26 <Umeaboy> I didn't know that texlive-tlpkg conflicts with texlive-collection-basic.
00:36:30 <dolio> Is that for the manual? Possibly you could turn that off.
00:37:20 <glguy> ijqq: I took a look at the burnt sushi TOML tests you mentioned. I'm passing all the decoder tests but the one about a half surrogate pair in a steering literal which seems debatable to check
00:38:28 <glguy> String literal *
00:42:57 <ijqq> oh nice :) that's really cool
00:43:59 <ijqq> yeah that does seem pretty unlikely
00:44:35 <ijqq> still, maybe you should just implement it just so that you can say that you pass every test
00:46:34 <glguy> I'll fix it. I see now that the spec does mandate only "scalar values"
00:46:42 <glguy> Missed that the first time through
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01:04:56 <ijqq> i just parsed my first toml string :)
01:05:08 <ijqq> still long ways to go but it's nice to see
01:06:33 <albet70> what's the name you call "bottom value" to return in recursive function?
01:08:47 <hpc> base case
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02:29:47 <albet70> f :: a -> (a -> b) is f :: Cont r a?
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02:40:42 <glguy> albet70: no
02:41:06 <glguy> ?unmtl Cont r a
02:41:06 <lambdabot> (a -> r) -> r
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02:49:34 <albet70> right
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03:33:31 <albet70> f :: a -> (a-> r) -> r this f CPS computation?
03:33:52 <albet70> and fit in g >>= f?
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11:00:08 <zazaeil> What would you say about this piece of code:
11:00:09 <zazaeil> mapMR:: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
11:00:09 <zazaeil> mapMR f xs = go xs []
11:00:09 <zazaeil> where
11:00:12 <zazaeil> go (z:zs) buf = do
11:00:15 <zazaeil> y <- f z
11:00:19 <zazaeil> y `seq` go zs $! y : buf
11:00:20 <zazaeil> go _ buf = pure $ reverse buf
11:00:24 <zazaeil> what's the usecase for it?
11:05:21 <probie> for making sure all the IO actions run before returning anything in the presence of `unsafeInterleaveIO`?
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11:07:23 <zazaeil> probie: why would you `reverse` then?
11:07:57 <probie> To get the results in the original order
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11:10:35 <ncf> go (a:b:c:[]) [] → go (b:c:[]) (a:[]) → go (c:[]) (b:a:[]) → go [] (c:b:a:[]) → a:b:c:[]
11:10:46 <probie> Try something like `let prompt s = putStrLn s >> fmap (s ++) getLine in mapMR prompt ["One: ", "Two: ", "Three: "]` both with and without the reverse
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11:17:13 <tomsmeding> probie: is this not the same as mapMR f xs = do { ys <- traverse f xs ; foldr seq () ys `seq` return ys }
11:17:26 <tomsmeding> I struggle to see why all the acrobatics are necessary
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11:18:17 <Guest38> hello
11:18:23 <geekosaur> hello
11:18:29 <tomsmeding> also communicates the intent much more clearly -- it's traverse/mapM, but evaluating the spine before returning
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11:27:19 <Guest38> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/VlDjNyVW
11:27:22 <Guest38> while the second one needs an extension?
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11:29:39 <geekosaur> because ghc is conservative when it comes to the Hskell standard, and the second one isn't part of the standard (https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/)
11:29:47 <[Leary]> tomsmeding: AKA deepseq`ap`pure: the Aztec god of strict IO.
11:30:22 <tomsmeding> [Leary]: deepseq /= foldr seq ()
11:30:43 <tomsmeding> Guest38: see also https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/constraint_kind.html#extension-ConstraintKinds
11:31:10 <tomsmeding> [Leary]: foldr seq () only evaluates the _spine_
11:31:35 <tomsmeding> ah, no, the spine plus WHNF of the elements
11:31:40 <tomsmeding> which is proper
11:31:50 <tomsmeding> deepseq would evaluate the elements to NF
11:31:55 <probie> tomsmeding: I don't know why all the acrobatics are there, I was just attempting to rationalise a use for it after the fact
11:32:02 <tomsmeding> yeah
11:34:39 <[Leary]> Close enough. <.<
11:36:26 <[Leary]> Also, the `deepseq` version is what you'd actually need to overcome lazy IO.
11:36:50 <tomsmeding> in general, yes; in specific cases this one might be sufficient
11:37:07 <tomsmeding> another use might be forcing some list evaluation in a lazy monad
11:37:20 <tomsmeding> i.e. a monad where (>>=) doesn't seq the argument to the continuation
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14:30:16 <gensyst> How to debug a weird issue like this?
14:30:16 <gensyst> The program crashes with runtime error "thread blocked indefinitely in an mvar operation" usually.
14:30:17 <gensyst> If I redirect stdout&stderr to a file, the program also crashes but with the different error: "thread blocked indefinitely in an STM transaction"
14:30:17 <gensyst> And if I simply put a liftIO $ putStrLn "foo" at one place, the program stops crashing!
14:30:17 <gensyst> Does anything like this sound familiar?
14:30:38 <gensyst> s/usually/without any stdout/stderr redirection
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14:51:26 <tomsmeding> gensyst: are you starting external processes, or is this just one haskell program?
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14:56:30 <k``> Is there a way to write PatternSynonyms without ViewPatterns?
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14:59:03 <gensyst> tomsmeding, one haskell program
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15:01:38 <tomsmeding> k``: yes, but ViewPatterns make pattern synonyms much more expressive :p
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15:02:18 <tomsmeding> gensyst: I was thinking of this one but it's something different then possibly https://tomsmeding.com/blog/bugs/efault
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15:03:17 <tomsmeding> gensyst: are you using any unsafe stuff, like unsafeIOToSTM?
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15:05:12 <gensyst> tomsmeding, nope
15:05:41 <gensyst> the only thing i can think of is some weird/obscure GC finalization stuff (and it's coincidental that the putStrLn somehow affects GC)
15:05:57 <gensyst> can't think of anything else :S
15:06:02 <zero> `The record update x { field = ... } with type A is ambiguous. This will not be supported by -XDuplicateRecordFields in future releases of GHC.`
15:06:05 <zero> why am i getting this warning?
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15:07:03 <zero> is DuplicateRecordFields being deprecated?
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15:08:26 <zero> As of GHC 9.4.1, selector names have to be entirely unambiguous (under the usual name resolution rules), while for record updates, there must be at most one datatype that has all the field names being updated.
15:08:37 <zero> i'm not sure what this means
15:12:57 <tomsmeding> zero: presumably it means in your example that there must be at most one type that has the field 'field'
15:13:08 <tomsmeding> which is no advantage over plain haskell
15:13:43 <tomsmeding> it becomes more flexible when you go x { a = ..., b = ... }, where there must be at most one type that has _both_ 'a' and 'b' -- there could be other types that have 'a' but not 'b'
15:13:55 <tomsmeding> in short, not very useful
15:14:28 <zero> i have two types with a 'field' field (i'm using Aeson with Generics) and i want to update one of them
15:14:35 <zero> how should i do it then?
15:15:08 <gensyst> why can't they just make it... easy lol. Like... dotsyntax. something that just works. (of course there must be good reasons for this, otherwise it would be done already)
15:16:01 <zero> `x { field = ... , b = b x }` seems ridiculous
15:17:09 <geekosaur> they should have implemented row types and then all of this would just work. instead we get hacks
15:17:17 <merijn> geekosaur: facts
15:17:25 <zero> what i have now is `x { field = ... } :: A` how is that ambiguous?
15:17:27 <merijn> the whole dot field selector story is a farce
15:18:14 <merijn> There's like 10 different field selector extensions and they all just make more of a mess
15:19:10 <zero> i'll just make an updateField function *sigh*
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15:21:35 <zero> ok that didn't solve it
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15:26:40 <Athas> How does the -maxN RTS flag interact with 'getNumCapabilities'?
15:27:07 <Athas> I pass -maxN8, yet getNumCapabilities returns 1.
15:27:23 <merijn> Athas: Does max change the actual, though?
15:27:30 <Athas> If I pass -N8, getNumCapabilitiles returns 8.
15:27:44 <Athas> merijn: I thought it did. The documentation implies that it's like -N, but with an upper bound.
15:27:52 <Athas> Which would be a very useful thing!
15:27:54 <merijn> that makes no sense, though
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15:28:07 <merijn> setting directly to upperbound
15:28:18 <Athas> You are incorrect; it makes sense.
15:28:23 <geekosaur> I would expect it to limit `setNumCapabilities`
15:28:35 <merijn> Athas: What do -N8 -maxN8 and -N16 -maxN8 do?
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15:29:12 <merijn> I'm with geekosaur
15:29:20 <Athas> merijn: 1 capability.
15:29:50 <Athas> My use case is that I want to use a hardware thread per core, but with an upper limit of 16 (because I know empirically my program will not scale beyond that).
15:30:03 <Athas> I thought -maxN was a convenient way to express that, but apparently I have to actually write code.
15:32:11 <Athas> Oh, wait, this seems to also behave differently when using a runtime with profiling enabled.
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15:32:59 <Athas> Alright I don't know what the profiling runtime is doing, but the non-profiling one fits my intuition of what -maxN should do.
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15:38:48 <tomsmeding> this being influenced by being in profiling mode or not sounds like a bug
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15:38:58 <tomsmeding> of all things that it should do, that it ought not to do, surely
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15:41:02 <tomsmeding> the documentation on -maxN is unclear
15:41:26 <tomsmeding> it implies that the runtime should choose the number of capabilities, respecting your explicit upper bound as well as the implicit number-of-processors bound
15:41:32 <tomsmeding> but the runtime never chooses anything
15:41:49 <tomsmeding> it just does what you tell it to do (using -N or with setNumCapabilities), and doesn't budge from that
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15:42:12 <tomsmeding> so naively I'd expect -maxN to do absolutely _nothing_ -- I don't see what functionality would use an "upper bound"
15:42:14 <EvanR> of all the number of capabilities you chose, that is the max
15:42:29 <EvanR> it's the max of all possible worlds
15:42:43 <tomsmeding> perhaps that works for someone called Max, but I'm not
15:42:55 <Athas> tomsmeding: the runtime "chooses" if you use -N without an argument.
15:42:59 <EvanR> -evaN
15:43:19 <Athas> My intuition was that -maxN is like "no-argument -N but with an upper limit".
15:43:34 <tomsmeding> Athas: I see that as "'-N' means '-N$(ncpus)'", not as "'-N' means 'the runtime chooses something with $(ncpus) as an upper bound'"
15:43:38 <Athas> Originally I simply used -N but then I tried to run my program on a 96 core machine and disaster ensued.
15:43:50 <tomsmeding> Athas: but no-argument -N is _documented_ as being precisely -N$(ncpus)
15:44:09 <Athas> What do you think -maxN should do?
15:44:23 <tomsmeding> right
15:44:28 <merijn> Athas: Set the upperbound for allowed number of capabilities and not touch the number of capabilities
15:44:45 <tomsmeding> you're right, the only sensible thing for -maxN<x> to mean, is -N<min($(ncpus), x)>
15:44:59 <merijn> tomsmeding: why?
15:44:59 <tomsmeding> given the documentation
15:45:09 <tomsmeding> merijn: because that's the only sensible interpretation of the docs
15:45:12 <merijn> ah, I'm only reading the channel :p
15:45:16 <tomsmeding> not because that's the only sensible thing that -maxN could do
15:45:18 <tomsmeding> merijn: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using-concurrent.html?highlight=maxn#rts-flag--maxN%20%E2%9F%A8x%E2%9F%A9
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15:45:31 <Athas> What does "allowed number of capabilities" mean? Would this be about restricting setNumCapabilities, or whatever it's called?
15:45:32 <merijn> tomsmeding: That sounds like work and I'm already debugging obscure things ;)
15:45:38 <merijn> Athas: yes
15:46:02 <Athas> I am not convinced that is terribly useful. It seems only useful for limiting ill-behaved Haskell code, and you can always use taskset for that.
15:46:03 <merijn> Anyway, I haven't read the actual docs, so... :p
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15:49:07 <tomsmeding> Athas: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/rts/RtsFlags.c#L1252-1270
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15:49:34 <tomsmeding> there's your profiling dependence too
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15:50:44 <Athas> Right, so it's just an add-hoc hack for the profiling case. That's fine.
15:50:57 <Athas> I'm guessing the profiling RTS does not handle true concurrency well.
15:52:32 <tomsmeding> there's also no discussion at all about this in the original MR https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/7ed0da6cde909e662d09e1f39c3fccfa10f91a7f
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15:58:15 <Inst> https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/19/reddit-communities-adopt-alternative-forms-of-protest-as-the-company-threats-action-on-moderators/
15:58:20 <Inst> re the /r/Haskell fracas
15:58:48 <Inst> it looks like it's more a question of whether we want Taylor / Dons / Kmett etc to remain mods and remain in control of /r/Haskell, or have it seized from us
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16:00:39 <EvanR> Moderators you better keep the community open or we will close you. Which it already is
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16:01:09 <EvanR> what the hell
16:07:27 <[exa]> "seized"
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16:08:55 <dolio> The prospects don't seem very good, from what I've seen.
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17:29:19 <jade[m]1> hm, I wonder what the best way to render an animation in haskell. So far I think I could just render the individual frames unsing hip and then use ffmpeg
17:29:20 <smoge> Is there a forum for haskell in arts / music ?
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17:31:24 <smoge> I'm just a beginner in Haskell. If someone could check this code and suggest something, I'd be very grateful.
17:31:25 <smoge> https://github.com/smoge/music-types
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17:34:34 <smoge> Thank you
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17:53:06 <[exa]> smoge: does it play sounds?
17:53:46 <smoge> No, I'm just starting it. It implements a data type for music rhythms
17:53:59 <segfaultfizzbuzz> [exa]: hey feel like teaching me stuff today?
17:54:03 <smoge> references on the bottom of the src file
17:54:38 <smoge> I'm quite new to haskell, any comment is appreciated
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17:58:42 <sm> it looks great smoge
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18:13:36 <smoge> Is there a type of Fraction that doesn't reduce? For example, stays 4/8, and won't reduce to 1/2 automatically?
18:14:53 <c_wraith> if you're looking for time signatures, just use two numbers. They're not really fractions anyway
18:15:13 <darkling> Yeah.
18:15:21 <darkling> You got there before me. :)
18:16:32 <dolio> smoge: (,)? :)
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18:17:12 <smoge> ok thanks
18:17:39 <smoge> in some OOP those 'fractions' inherent from Rational
18:17:41 <smoge> go figures
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18:18:38 <dolio> That won't get you all the arithmetic, of course. I'm not aware of any non-reduced rational that's actually an instance of all the numeric stuff in the right way.
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18:22:24 <smoge> I think they will need to have their rational number somehow integrated, so they can be ordered, compared, arithmetic operations (addition etc) etc
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18:22:52 <EvanR> time signatures don't seem to need much in the way of arithmetic
18:23:18 <smoge> they are just like durations
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18:23:33 <EvanR> but right now I am using rationals and debugging is though when they get reduced
18:23:37 <darkling> They have additional semantics beyond duration -- phrasing, for example.
18:23:49 <darkling> 6/8 is not the same as 3/4.
18:24:16 <smoge> yes, although they las the same time
18:24:35 <darkling> Well, physical duration also depends on tempo. :)
18:24:51 <smoge> metric hierarchies would be yet another improvement, of course
18:25:05 <EvanR> by duration I would think you mean a time diff, while time signature is a combination of count of beats per measure and a code for what a beat is
18:25:13 <darkling> Personally, I'd just write them as a pair of (top, bottom)
18:26:26 <darkling> I literally can't think of a case where I've had to do any kind of arithmetic on two time signatures.
18:26:36 <smoge> Duration as in Music Notation. Duration -> Tempo -> Time (in seconds)
18:27:09 <darkling> OK, but it's still just counting notes of given length. When do you need to add the time signatures themselves?
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18:28:34 <darkling> If you need to keep track of the number of beats that have elapsed since some previous event, I'd count (fractions of) beats, *derived from* the time signature, rather than trying to do anything fancy with the time signatures themselves.
18:29:04 <darkling> The Western notation of music isn't necessarily the best driver of appropriate data structures for representing it.
18:29:17 <smoge> With some approaches, you can start with the measure, and then subdivide it. So you need to know the duration.
18:30:39 <smoge> Yes, it depends a lot of how it will be used.
18:30:53 <EvanR> not enough info on what the goals are to suggest a best or even good abstraction
18:30:53 <darkling> Sure, but turn the time signature into length-of-notes up front, and just work in units of length-of-notes.
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18:31:19 <smoge> For example, it can be quite difficult to adapt a code to embrace microtones if it was not thought in advance etc
18:31:53 <smoge> Euterpea is an example, I think
18:32:50 <smoge>   - https://support.ircam.fr/docs/om/om6-manual/co/RT1.html
18:32:51 <smoge>   - https://www.tenor-conference.org/proceedings/2017/18_Jacquemard_tenor2017.pdf
18:32:51 <smoge>   - http://repmus.ircam.fr/_media/jacquemard/strn-mcm.pdf
18:33:14 <smoge> The code tries to implement this idea. maybe it gives context
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19:57:07 <[exa]> segfaultfizzbuzz: sorry I was fixing other stuff tbh
19:57:31 <[exa]> segfaultfizzbuzz: questions welcome but I don't have much time
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20:20:40 <segfaultfizzbuzz> [exa]: no worries maybe later
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20:34:25 <ryantrinkle> is it possible to generate a valid Typeable instance for a phantom type?
20:34:29 <ryantrinkle> something like what ST does
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20:36:06 <monochrom> I think it's simply "deriving Typeable" and you turn on the DeriveDataTypeable extension.
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20:41:07 <hellwolf[m]> what is _other?
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20:54:59 <monochrom> Perhaps just an arbitrary variable name.
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21:01:37 <EvanR> can I buy a 'b'
21:01:52 <gurkenglas> oh no if we equip [a] with lubs :: [a] -> a from Data.Lub I think it's the cocompletion of a
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21:05:54 <gurkenglas> and that if we merely assume that lub exists then so is (a -> ()) -> ()
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21:06:53 <ncf> what
21:09:10 <gurkenglas> ncf: like, you can use (a -> ()) -> () to represent xs :: [a] using \f -> lubs (map f xs)
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21:09:41 <c_wraith> monochrom: you don't even need to derive Typeable on any recent GHC. It's automatic for all data types. (you of course still need to specify the constraint at use sites)
21:09:57 <ncf> gurkenglas: why is lubs :: [a] -> () ?
21:10:09 <ncf> (a -> ()) -> () is equivalent to ()
21:10:38 <gurkenglas> ncf: () has two (what is it called, values? elements?), bottom and ()
21:10:55 <gurkenglas> ncf: lubs is [a] -> a
21:11:37 <ncf> so what's the type of \f -> lubs (map f xs) ?
21:12:02 <gurkenglas> (a -> ()) -> ()
21:12:11 <gurkenglas> (where xs :: [a])
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21:12:30 <smoge> How do you guys set up a workspace / envr with stack? I always get into some trouble
21:13:00 <ncf> and how do you get [a] back from that?
21:14:09 <gurkenglas> uh, i should have noted that the order and multiplicity is lost
21:15:20 <smoge> music-types> /Users/smoge/src3/music-types/music-types/src/Rtm.hs:21:1: error:
21:15:21 <smoge> music-types>     Could not load module ‘Text.Parsec.String’
21:15:21 <smoge> music-types>     It is a member of the hidden package ‘parsec-3.1.16.1’.
21:15:22 <smoge> music-types>     Perhaps you need to add ‘parsec’ to the build-depends in your .cabal file.
21:15:22 <smoge> music-types>     It is a member of the hidden package ‘parsec-3.1.15.0’.
21:15:23 <smoge> music-types>     Perhaps you need to add ‘parsec’ to the build-depends in your .cabal file.
21:15:23 <smoge> music-types>     Use -v (or `:set -v` in ghci) to see a list of the files searched for.
21:15:24 <smoge> music-types>    |
21:15:24 <smoge> music-types> 21 | import Text.Parsec.String  (Parser)
21:15:53 <smoge> resolver:
21:15:53 <smoge>   url: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/commercialhaskell/stackage-snapshots/master/lts/20/24.yaml
21:15:54 <smoge> packages:
21:15:54 <smoge> - .
21:15:55 <smoge> - parsec-3.1.16.1
21:15:55 <smoge> - pretty-show-1.10
21:16:05 <smoge> what am I doing wrong?
21:17:02 <smoge> https://github.com/smoge/music-types/blob/main/stack.yaml
21:17:06 <ncf> Perhaps you need to add ‘parsec’ to the build-depends in your .cabal file.
21:17:31 <sclv> smoge please don't paste long sets of lines into irc. use the pastebin in the topic
21:17:34 <smoge> When I do, and run stack build, it is deleted by the script
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21:20:00 <sclv> smoge your cabal file is generated from an hpack file i believe and that should be named project.yaml
21:20:05 <glguy> It's probably because you also have a package.yaml file. Once you delete that it will stop overwriting your .cabal file
21:20:14 <sclv> er package.yaml
21:20:28 <sclv> or yeah what glguy said
21:21:12 <gurkenglas> but the scuffed way is, given xs_ :: (a -> ()) -> () you assume Eq a and enumeration :: [a] and you go (map (\x -> seq (xs_ (\y -> if x == y then () else undefined)) x) enumeration)
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21:21:32 <gurkenglas> it gets slightly less scuffed if we replace (a -> ()) -> () with HasLub b => (a -> b) -> b
21:22:28 <gurkenglas> and the not scuffed way is to not try to recover the [a] at all but use it as one would use the cocompletion
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21:27:45 <gurkenglas> aka "values that if we actually lubbed them might error because they have no common upper bound, but we plan to process them in a way that never actually runs into this problem"
21:29:59 <monochrom> Perhaps delete hpack, too. >:D
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21:40:05 <smoge> thanks!
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22:02:03 <ijqq> I have haskell language server set up, and now I can go to the definition of functions I've locally defined. When I hover over library functions, e.g. asum from Data.Foldable or intercalate from Data.List, the popup shows a link to the function source code for my local install. However, I can't jump to definition for those library functions.
22:02:19 <ijqq> Is there a way to make it work so that I am able to do it?
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22:04:43 <geekosaur> not yet
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22:06:06 <geekosaur> https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/708
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22:13:28 <ijqq> Ah okay, I did see that issue but I thought that since HLS clearly knows where the source file is, there would be a fix.
22:14:32 <ijqq> Oh nevermind, I missunderstood
22:14:33 <ijqq> Ignroe me
22:14:35 <ijqq> Ignore*
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22:18:18 <ijqq> I didn't realise the source is just a html page not the actual source
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22:19:06 <ijqq> Which is obvious oops
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23:15:21 <ijqq> http://sprunge.us/s3Ta6g would anybody be able to help me? i'm trying to cabal install https://github.com/arybczak/ghc-tags and i get errors about base
23:16:04 <ijqq> i have ghcup too, but seeing this message i don't really know how to go about fixing it
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23:17:31 <Nosrep> newer version of ghc i think
23:17:39 <Nosrep> 9.6 needed
23:17:52 <ijqq> is it saying that I need base ver 4.18, but i don't have that installed?
23:18:13 <Nosrep> think so, don't really use cabal
23:18:19 <Nosrep> that's the only way i'm reading it that makes sense
23:18:22 <c_wraith> ijqq: no, it's saying that you have it installed and ghc-tags doesn't say it supports 4.18
23:18:39 <c_wraith> and 4.18 just means a recent version of GHC
23:18:57 <c_wraith> just tell cabal --allow-newer=base
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23:19:57 <c_wraith> it *probably* will work. base 4.18 didn't change much that already existed.
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23:22:25 <ijqq> i tried this `cabal install --allow-newer=base ghc-tags`it said the same
23:22:58 <ijqq> btw i'm running this command in a directory where i haven't done any cabal init or anything, maybe that is an issue?
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23:27:20 <geekosaur> no, you shouldn't need to cabal init to install an executable
23:28:32 <geekosaur> cabal install ghc-tags --allow-newer=base,ghc-prim
23:28:38 <geekosaur> is working for me
23:28:56 <geekosaur> or at least it's trying to build now
23:29:15 <ijqq> oh it's trying to build for me now too
23:29:21 <ijqq> maybe it was the ghc-prim?
23:29:33 <c_wraith> probably
23:29:34 <ijqq> what is that btw?
23:29:48 <c_wraith> a wrapper exposing a bunch of ghc internals
23:30:07 <c_wraith> data types, primitives, etc
23:30:21 <ijqq> ah right
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23:33:40 <ijqq> so "constraint from user target" means the requirement imposed by the library i'm trying to install?
23:34:11 <geekosaur> generally, yes
23:34:29 <geekosaur> "user target" is what you're installing
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23:35:36 <geekosaur> but ghc-tags uses ghc-lib and ghc-lib-parser, which have tight version constraints
23:36:31 <ijqq> http://sprunge.us/wS9zWi
23:36:38 <geekosaur> ghc-lib-parser just failed for me
23:36:42 <ijqq> :(
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23:37:05 <ijqq> yep same
23:37:47 <c_wraith> So yeah... lots of libraries still aren't compatible with recent versions of ghc.
23:37:53 <geekosaur> versioning makes me think it's using the one for ghc 9.4, which won't fly with 9.6. trying an allow-newer
23:40:06 <ijqq> so I have ghcup which allows me to change my ghc install. so is there some way to get cabal to tell me which version of ghc i need in order to install a package? and then I can change my ghc version in ghcup and be assured that there won't be any conflicts?
23:40:44 <c_wraith> if you use `ghcup tui' it will list what versions of base come with each version of ghc. That's about the most effective approach I know
23:40:45 <geekosaur> no, because packages only contain that information in the form of constraints on packages that come with ghc
23:41:02 <c_wraith> as version conflicts are usually on the base package.
23:41:10 <c_wraith> (though sometimes they aren't... then have fun!)
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23:41:49 <ijqq> hmm perhaps it is because i'm new and i don't really understand it, but i though the whole installing packages would be a better experience for a cool language like hasklel
23:41:54 <geekosaur> in this case, ghc-tags excludes the versions of base, ghc-prim, and ghc-lib that come with ghc 9.6, but accept the ones that come with 9.4
23:42:24 <ijqq> i mean npm, cargo, pip generally tend to get it right
23:42:42 <ijqq> ok
23:42:47 <geekosaur> so cabal install -w ghc-9.4.5 (because I have that 9.4 version installed)
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23:43:05 <geekosaur> that said I did an allow-newer on ghc-lib and it seems to be going
23:43:08 <ijqq> so do i need to change ghc in ghcup?
23:43:16 <ijqq> to 9.4.x?
23:43:27 <geekosaur> just install it, you don't have to set it as current, just use -w to specify it
23:43:37 <c_wraith> npm and pip usually don't get it right, in my experience.
23:44:03 <c_wraith> cargo does, but mostly because not breaking it is a primary concern in rust.
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23:47:34 <ijqq> yeah fair enough, i just figured the smart haskell guys probably had a good solution for it
23:47:39 <ijqq> im sure once i get used to it it should be fine
23:47:53 <geekosaur> stack has a solution, not necessarily the best one
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23:48:09 <c_wraith> There really isn't a solution to "people change their libraries, breaking downstream stuff"
23:48:30 <geekosaur> (the package has to come with a stack.yaml which tells it among other things what ghc version to install)
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23:49:24 <geekosaur> okay, ghc-tags really does not support ghc 9.6
23:49:27 <geekosaur> use ghc 9.4
23:50:42 <ijqq> what i meant is for a library version x, if you can specify all the dependencies down the the commit hash, then it should be possible to recreate that same environment for the person downloading it?
23:51:06 <c_wraith> ijqq: that doesn't cover how to interoperate with other libraries
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23:51:48 <c_wraith> Admittedly, you're looking at an executable, which is somewhat simpler in that sense.
23:52:14 <c_wraith> But the general case is that you haven't solved the problem yet by specifying only dependencies
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23:53:32 <ijqq> so if i write a library and my library version x depends on two libraries, version y and z and i know this, surely someone else can recreate that build?
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23:54:23 <c_wraith> but what if they use another library that depends on different versions of the dependencies?
23:55:52 <c_wraith> Library dependencies can be part of their public interface, not just their implementation
23:57:31 <c_wraith> cabal v1 not having any answer to this is what led to "cabal hell" and the creation of stack. Cabal v2 has much better answers in place - but they still can't help if you're asking it to do something where the pieces legitimately don't work together
23:58:04 <ijqq> thanks for the help geekosaur, i've got it working now
23:58:30 <ijqq> ah yep i see what you mean

All times are in UTC on 2023-06-20.