Logs on 2023-06-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 16:33:01 | <nut> | can cabal use a specific .ghc.env ? |
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| 16:33:35 | <nut> | i have a folder where i play around and cabal install --lib --env . somelib |
| 16:34:11 | <sclv> | right i mean that’s what using it means? |
| 16:34:20 | <sclv> | it can write to a specific one |
| 16:34:32 | <sclv> | then raw ghci or ghc can be pointed to use it |
| 16:34:58 | <sclv> | if you use normal cabal v2 it should bypass any and all env files |
| 16:36:30 | <nut> | what's the point of .env file? |
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| 16:36:43 | <nut> | when do people use this? |
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| 16:43:44 | <monochrom> | I use it when I run ghci and have libraries available and I don't need no cabal "project" or "script". |
| 16:44:17 | <monochrom> | I accept that it is now my responsibility, not cabal's, to keep things consistent. |
| 16:46:50 | <monochrom> | Unpopular opinion: To a large extent the real hidden reason for scaremongering against "install --lib" is not that it is wrong, but that user responsibility is higher, there are more PEBKAC, and those who know do not want to do the tech support job. |
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| 16:50:34 | <nut> | do you manually edit the .env file? |
| 16:51:01 | <sclv> | you can do a combination of manual editing and using the cabal install lib method |
| 16:51:25 | <monochrom> | Sometimes I do (to delete things I no longer want, to delete old things). Sometimes I even keep around multiple env files and switch between them. |
| 16:51:41 | <sclv> | env files also useful for tools that interact directly with ghc api rather than being invoked by cabal or stack |
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| 16:52:05 | <monochrom> | To add things I still use "install --lib" to let cabal help me check consistency. |
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| 16:53:21 | <monochrom> | with the benefit that if the package has already been built before and is still in .cabal/store, it is reused. |
| 16:53:28 | <nut> | so inside the env, let's say the current dir. how do you run that the haskell code? runghc ?or build it with ghc |
| 16:53:47 | <monochrom> | any of ghc, ghci, runghc |
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| 16:54:17 | <nut> | ok so ghc or ghci would pick the .env file? |
| 16:54:22 | <monochrom> | Yes |
| 16:54:48 | <sclv> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/packages.html#package-environments |
| 16:55:06 | <monochrom> | Under the mutual understanding that if non-default location you need -package-env=??? |
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| 16:55:32 | <sclv> | people think of env files as a cabal feature, but they're not. they're a ghc feature that cabal helps you construct (and also some other tools help you construct) |
| 16:55:57 | <monochrom> | Well, it's human nature. |
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| 16:56:13 | <monochrom> | Windows users think that computer = Windows. |
| 16:56:35 | <sclv> | sure i'm just pointing it out here because the "how do i use this" docs are ghc docs :-) |
| 16:56:43 | <monochrom> | Photocopier users say "xerox copy" even when the photocopier is clearly a Canon one. :) |
| 16:57:34 | <monochrom> | My Kleenex comes from Royale. I actually like it more than Kleenex. |
| 16:57:55 | <monochrom> | Plus I like the cat pics. |
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| 19:04:35 | <sm> | it's cool that you can manually tweak env files, though I assume you can break it that way |
| 19:05:59 | <sm> | I guess env files are still relatively new, perhaps they'd be more popular if they were more visible ? Eg, common to see in your project directory, not hidden away somewhere. Also aren't they kind of doing the same thing as cabal.project ? |
| 19:07:24 | <sclv> | project files are for cabal only, and configuring multiple source packages. env files are for ghc and configuring making use of necessarily installed packages |
| 19:07:55 | <sclv> | project : cabal package :: env file : ghc package database |
| 19:09:47 | sm | imagines a magical hsenv file someday taking over the jobs of cabal.project, stack.yaml, and more, simplifying user experience |
| 19:10:42 | <geekosaur> | shortly followed by some new invention (cue https://xkcd.com/927/) |
| 19:10:54 | <sclv> | imho wouldn’t work. people need different files for different services/tools/levels of modularity abstraction |
| 19:11:37 | <sclv> | like cabal.project suffices for everything _as long as you are using cabal_ |
| 19:11:37 | <sm> | I hear that, but I don't think we need quite as much complexity as we have |
| 19:12:16 | <sclv> | it has a lot of knobs that mainly make no sense for ghc |
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| 19:13:07 | <sm> | what's cool about env files, at least in my imagination, is that they are recognised by all haskell tools; you can potentially configure "haskell" in one place |
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| 19:18:17 | <monochrom> | UML is the result of taking over the jobs of one million specification languages. And it shows. |
| 19:19:00 | <monochrom> | I don't think it simplified user experience. I think it opened new revenue streams for consultants instead. |
| 19:19:25 | <sm> | these are not the same :) |
| 19:20:15 | <monochrom> | And here is how env is not analogous to cabal.project or foo.cabal. |
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| 19:20:36 | <sm> | people are very famliar with ini files with multiple sections influencing multiple tools |
| 19:21:02 | <monochrom> | env has to go like "hmatrix-0.20.2-64a3e0544c374f5ad983bd82369f6e2346a98585638f359e300c21303b438f18". Emphasis on "64a3e0544c374f5ad983bd82369f6e2346a98585638f359e300c21303b438f18". |
| 19:21:18 | <monochrom> | cabal.project and foo.cabal must not have that. |
| 19:21:41 | <sm> | yes, I know these things are not doing the same job today. I'm chatting about what could be if you squint |
| 19:22:02 | <sm> | anyway, time for breakfast o/ |
| 19:22:27 | <monochrom> | You have to eliminate "64a3e0544c374f5ad983bd82369f6e2346a98585638f359e300c21303b438f18" if there is any possibility of unification. |
| 19:22:50 | <monochrom> | And here is how: Go back to Hugs (generally any interpreter or non-optimizing compiler) |
| 19:23:59 | <monochrom> | fast, user-friendly, FP: pick two. |
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| 19:27:22 | <jade[m]> | heh |
| 19:27:41 | <jade[m]> | what the actual fuck |
| 19:28:27 | <monochrom> | ini files abused that way is just Window Registry mentality carried out to text config files. |
| 19:28:58 | <jade[m]> | the bridged account is sending the messages in the matrix room too, that's not right, is it ... |
| 19:29:12 | <monochrom> | Someone thought that it would be "simpler" to have a bus factor of 1 but for config files. |
| 19:32:35 | <monochrom> | I for one found it a chore to look for the license key of a game in Windows Registry when Window Registry is a melting point of a thousand sections to affect a thousand independent programs. It was not simpler. |
| 19:32:46 | <monochrom> | s/melting point/melting pot/ |
| 19:33:58 | <monochrom> | It is true that it would be a chore just as much if the game used its own config file. |
| 19:34:08 | <monochrom> | My point is that neither is simpler. |
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| 20:32:10 | <Guest4> | Is Haskell even useful? I know dozens of programmers, but nobody use haskell |
| 20:32:28 | <jade[m]> | lmao |
| 20:32:29 | <jade[m]> | yes it is |
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| 20:32:41 | <jade[m]> | you might just not know the right programmers ;) |
| 20:33:14 | <Guest4> | In which field is this useful? Maybe something more scientific...? |
| 20:33:35 | <Guest4> | Not web, not embedded, not AI... |
| 20:33:37 | <mauke> | some banks seem to like it |
| 20:34:25 | <mauke> | what is galois? defense contractor? |
| 20:34:26 | <jade[m]> | haskell is used in FPGAs with clash |
| 20:34:29 | <jade[m]> | fascinating topic |
| 20:35:11 | <mauke> | some internal facebook tools are haskell |
| 20:35:50 | <jade[m]> | haskell is also used in compilers for other languages |
| 20:35:56 | <jade[m]> | as well as its own of course |
| 20:36:46 | <mauke> | oh, if we're talking about practical uses, then pandoc is probably the most prominent application |
| 20:37:14 | <Guest4> | Sure, but maybe some popular field in which haskell has >5% of market? |
| 20:37:25 | <mauke> | haskell compilers |
| 20:37:48 | <jade[m]> | hahhaha |
| 20:38:07 | <jade[m]> | Guest4: I don't believe in such metrics |
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| 20:38:54 | <Guest4> | Don't get me wrong, I'm not Haskell hater. The language itself is beautiful I think, but who use it in job? |
| 20:39:16 | <yushyin> | https://haskellcosm.com/ |
| 20:39:19 | <jade[m]> | I understand yeah |
| 20:39:25 | <jade[m]> | it's not very widely adopted |
| 20:39:26 | <mauke> | Guest4: that would be me |
| 20:39:57 | <Guest4> | yushyin thanks! |
| 20:40:48 | <mauke> | huh, my company is on that list |
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| 20:53:55 | <monochrom> | There is no problem with understanding that Haskell is a minority language. |
| 20:54:19 | <jade[m]> | mhm |
| 20:54:28 | <monochrom> | But please don't open your question is "nobody I know knows Japanese. who uses Japanese in jobs?" |
| 20:55:05 | <mauke> | must be those weebs |
| 20:55:07 | <monochrom> | It's the 21st Century of Our Lord already, everyone should already understand echo-chamber selection bias. |
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| 20:59:19 | <monochrom> | I have a friend, a Clojure person, who once gave guest lectures in my course on what's so nice about FP and why they chose it for jobs (replacing Java). |
| 21:00:06 | <monochrom> | He showed a chart indicating that FP jobs are at the highest pay. |
| 21:00:20 | <monochrom> | But of course I could see two issues with that fact: |
| 21:00:33 | <monochrom> | 1. FP jobs are still much harder to find. |
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| 21:00:46 | <monochrom> | 2. The second best is Perl. >:D |
| 21:02:29 | <dolio> | I'd rather write Haskell than Perl. |
| 21:04:31 | <jade[m]> | I'd rather write haskell than most other languages |
| 21:04:51 | <jade[m]> | even though I suck at it >:D |
| 21:05:10 | <sm> | jade/jade[m]: do you know your messages are still being duplicated ? It seems to be just you |
| 21:05:24 | <monochrom> | But sometimes I take issues with the whole imprisoned "where are jobs?" mentality altogether. |
| 21:05:39 | <sm> | (unless it's just me seeing just you duplicated..) |
| 21:05:51 | <monochrom> | Why wait for some boss's mercy to hand down jobs on you? |
| 21:05:51 | <jade[m]> | yeah, it seems to be just the matrix side? I guess you could ban the bridged account? |
| 21:06:02 | <geekosaur> | it's just jade here as well, and only matrix-side |
| 21:06:17 | <monochrom> | Why don't more people come here to ask "can I use Haskell to start my own business and be my own boss?"? |
| 21:06:26 | <mauke> | 3. you can write functional code in perl :-p |
| 21:06:30 | <sm> | maybe you can log out / reidentify some things ? |
| 21:07:18 | <mauke> | it has a direct embedding of lambda calculus and built-in map/filter functions. what more do you want‽ |
| 21:07:27 | ← | jade[m] parts (~jade256th@2001:470:69fc:105::3:58df) () |
| 21:07:42 | <monochrom> | I want static typing. |
| 21:07:53 | <hpc> | you have $, @, and & |
| 21:07:55 | <hpc> | that's enough for anyone |
| 21:07:58 | <monochrom> | I want the sigil system to go away. |
| 21:08:03 | <mauke> | don't forget about % |
| 21:08:09 | <hpc> | % and @ are the same type |
| 21:08:09 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:23:20: error: parse error on input ‘type’ |
| 21:08:21 | <monochrom> | Yes, I want $@&%# to go away. |
| 21:08:22 | <mauke> | what is this PHP heresy? |
| 21:08:35 | <mauke> | monochrom: sorry, perl is a lisp |
| 21:08:39 | <sm> | jade[m] hasn't rejoined, so I guess yes ? |
| 21:08:44 | <geekosaur[m]> | now I'm not seeing you irc-side |
| 21:08:56 | <monochrom> | Yeah well that is also the reason I don't want Lisp. |
| 21:09:51 | <hpc> | lisp is fine |
| 21:10:00 | <hpc> | my only issue with it is it's hard to know what level something is defined at |
| 21:10:16 | <hpc> | you have to handle values and macros differently sometimes |
| 21:10:28 | <sm> | you may need to (re)identify with appservice for the IRC side (see !help there) |
| 21:10:29 | <geekosaur[m]> | but I'm also not seeing half of what mauke sends matrix-side. and hpc too. guess whatever they did to the bridge this morning made things worse |
| 21:10:29 | <monochrom> | Don't get me wrong, I am just counting the factors why I don't like Perl. If you like Perl, more power to you. |
| 21:11:07 | <mauke> | hpc: yeah, if only there were sigils to distinguish between them |
| 21:11:16 | <mauke> | like $ in haskell |
| 21:11:17 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 21:12:15 | <hpc> | yeah, sigils would solve that nicely |
| 21:12:18 | <monochrom> | It is true that you either don't do it at all or go full measure. :) |
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| 21:12:43 | jade[m]1 | is now known as jade[m] |
| 21:12:55 | <mauke> | jade[m]: hello! |
| 21:12:59 | <hpc> | or if you really want to annoy people, use {} to delimit macro evaluation :D |
| 21:13:26 | <jade[m]> | I think the reconnect worked ...? |
| 21:13:42 | <sm> | I am seeing chunks of messages that are visible in only some of my matrix clients (eg visible in element on mac but not element on IOS). (Also, some rooms are showing all messages in red in element IOS.) Things are unsettled |
| 21:14:04 | <mauke> | eventually consistent |
| 21:14:10 | <monochrom> | hahaha |
| 21:14:39 | <monochrom> | both irc and matrix eventually go obsolete and quiescient so yeah eventually consistent |
| 21:15:13 | <monochrom> | There is also an xkcd for that :) |
| 21:15:42 | monochrom | admits that he is part of the problem :) |
| 21:15:45 | <mauke> | (German "eventuell" means possibly, maybe) |
| 21:16:18 | <monochrom> | I think Kripke semantics agrees with that. :) |
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| 21:38:22 | sm | updates element & OS everywhere.. looking better |
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| 22:30:54 | <hololeap> | I've got a favorite style question for you: do you prefer `deriving (Semigroup, Monoid) via Monoid.First` or just writing it out explicitly since it's so simple |
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| 22:42:45 | <monochrom> | I think I like to read "deriving (Semigroup, Monoid) via Monoid.First" and need not understand any actual code, however simple. :) |
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| 22:43:34 | <monochrom> | Similarly I have been teaching my students that EBNF "foo ::= {bar}" is better than rolling your own "foo ::= bars; bars ::= emptystring | bar bars" |
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| 23:19:32 | <jackdk> | I haven't yet found an instance where I've preferred manual instances over `-XDerivingVia` |
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| 23:36:57 | <hololeap> | thanks guys |
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