Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-06-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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04:30:12 <Square2> Is it possible to invoke "f :: forall a. SomeClass a => a" wo specifying what "a" is. Instead just use functions of "SomeClass" ?
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04:38:11 <Axman6> how would the compiler know which instance to use if it doesn't know what a is?
04:41:36 <Square2> Axman6, Beats me. I hoped magic would kick in.
04:42:09 <Square2> thanks for your reply. Now I know its not possible at least.
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04:50:40 <Axman6> you can write algorithms generic in SomeClass, and let the user choose which instance they want though
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06:52:23 <jade[m]> <Square2> "Is it possible to invoke "f..." <- you could use a newtype wrapper around some structure
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07:15:50 <dminuoso> Is there a simple/small graph library to represent and work with DAGs? In particular, I would like to zip around the graph and traverse in or outbound edges.
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07:29:55 <Axman6> a graph zipper?
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07:30:08 <Axman6> I only know of fgl, and have never used it
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07:38:14 <dminuoso> Mmm, fgl I had not considered. I will take a deeper look at it
07:38:37 <dminuoso> I like thjat its really low on dependencies. :)
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07:44:27 <int-e> Unless I need a specific algorithm, I often find it easier to just define an ad-hoc graph type.
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09:18:10 <jackdk> dminuoso: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/algebraic-graphs is based off a cool paper
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12:15:41 <thblt> I came accross this syntax in safe-money: newtype Dense (currency :: Symbol) = Dense Rational. I understand that it means that the Dense type is specialized per currency (so you can't add USD to EUR). But what is this syntax? Type families?
12:17:40 <jade[m]> the hint GHC gives is to enable DataKinds which makes it compile
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12:18:32 <jade[m]> since that extension doesn't imply any other it seems like that's the one
12:19:26 <dminuoso> The hint does nto enable DataKinds, its merely a kind annotation.
12:20:06 <thblt> thanks!
12:20:13 <dminuoso> thblt: If you wrote `newtype Dense currency = Dense Rational` something like `Dense Int` or `Dense Maybe` (with PolyKinds) would be valid
12:20:26 <thblt> dminuoso: I think jade[m] meant ghc's suggestion when compiling this as is
12:20:30 <dminuoso> Symbol constrains type parameters to those types of type Symbol
12:20:44 <jade[m]> thblt: yep
12:20:50 <dminuoso> Such that you can write `Dense "dollar"` in a type
12:21:36 <dminuoso> thblt: At any rate, the technical term of what this is used for is "phantom types"
12:22:10 <dminuoso> You could utilize them in type families too, but I cant think of a useful scenario in this particular example
12:22:52 <dminuoso> phantom types with `symbols` - which is a kind of uninhabited types that you can use as annotations in phantom types.
12:23:07 <thblt> Ha, thanks, makes sense. I knew about those in data, but I didn't think they'd work with newtype.
12:23:25 <dminuoso> thblt: Consider that newtype gets erased completely at compile time.
12:23:37 <dminuoso> If anything it would be the other way around.
12:23:43 <thblt> Yes, it's obvious in hindsight :)
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15:28:55 <Guest17> I have posted a question on stackoverflow about parse error. If someone could help me I'm will be grateful.
15:28:56 <Guest17> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/76557896/parse-error-possiby-identation-or-mismatch-brackets
15:30:44 <geekosaur> I see several problems; the parse error(s) are likely missing `do`s after `then`s
15:31:17 <geekosaur> I also suspect you're missing parentheses in `mountTree`
15:31:18 <jade[m]> and in one of the if's you also have a let binding without any meaning that may be missing an in?
15:31:38 <geekosaur> `return` is not a keyword in Haskell
15:31:57 <int-e> there's also the lone "tree = mountTree(intitialPath)" in the final do block
15:31:58 <jade[m]> I would suggest writing many more smaller functions to compose and not trying to do imperative-ish nesting of conditionals
15:32:38 <Guest17> Same error for both
15:32:55 <Guest17> ok jade[m] i will attempt to do that.
15:33:07 <int-e> Guest17: yeah this looks like you should write something smaller and simpler first
15:33:36 <Guest17> yep, but what is this error? I can found it in this code.
15:33:41 <geekosaur> it also looks a lot like you're expecting `do` to turn Haskell into "normal" imperative code, which it doesn't
15:33:48 <int-e> If you load a file in `ghci` you can test simple functions without having a main function.
15:34:21 <geekosaur> you don't show the actual error or any line numbers
15:34:32 <jade[m]> furthermore length(some_list) == 0 just screams for a pattern match
15:35:02 <geekosaur> but after almost every `then` you have more than one line, which means you need `then do`
15:36:02 <Guest17> i will add the `then do`. Trying to load result i na  parse error,,
15:36:40 <jade[m]> :r!
15:36:55 <geekosaur> also function invocations do not work as `f(a, b, c)`, but as `f a b c`
15:36:56 <jade[m]> that will defer errors
15:37:22 <jade[m]> and I would try to just avoid if in general as the way you use it is kind of just an antipattern
15:37:22 <geekosaur> and what's that bare `leaf + 1`?
15:37:36 int-e suspects "leaf++"
15:37:45 <int-e> (but in another language)
15:37:53 <Guest17> ops, dir + 1.
15:38:18 <Guest17> i'm attempet to read the dir tree
15:38:22 <jade[m]> I would assume they are thinking that haskell is "just like any other imperative language"
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15:38:45 <jade[m]> besides it actually being fundamentally different
15:39:11 <jade[m]> in haskell you can't have statements - you just have expressions that you compose with funcitons
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15:39:33 <Guest17> yep
15:39:48 <jade[m]> do just gives the illusion that such things exist in haskell
15:40:02 <int-e> @undo do x <- act1; y <- act2 x; let z = x+y; return z
15:40:02 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs:1:49:Parse error: EOF
15:40:11 <int-e> ah right
15:40:16 <int-e> @undo do x <- act1; y <- act2 x; let { z = x+y }; return z
15:40:16 <lambdabot> act1 >>= \ x -> act2 x >>= \ y -> let { z = x + y} in return z
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15:41:35 <int-e> The thing is, `do` is "just" syntactic sugar for an ordinary Haskell expression with some weird operator (>>= and >> (not present in the example))
15:42:27 <int-e> It doesn't magically give you mutation powers (assignment of variables).
15:43:54 <Guest17> i dones't mutate, i control the variables. should i assign to another variable? On de sedgewick book exercice one works perfectly.
15:43:54 <Guest17> so I do the same on this algorithm.
15:44:14 <Guest17> i will study ```>>=```and ``>>`` operators
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15:45:12 <geekosaur> thye won't help you here
15:45:30 <Guest17> ohh ok
15:45:44 <geekosaur> which means `do` won't helo you here either
15:45:54 <geekosaur> *help
15:46:16 <jade[m]> what helped me grasp haskell better is to just avoid do
15:46:23 <jade[m]> use explicit `>>=`
15:46:38 <jade[m]> because it doesn't hide the true identity
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15:48:45 <ski> Guest17 : there is no variable assignment, in Haskell
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15:51:37 <ski> .. so much wrong here that it's hard to know where to start
15:51:49 <Guest17> ski you can assign values from IO to and variables using <- and mutating the declared. by the nature of haskell he will keep then immutable generating anotther variable in the haskell compiled code. How do not compile i can correct the errors
15:52:02 <ski> "you can assign values from IO to and variables using <- and mutating the declared" -- no
15:52:14 <Guest17> so it's what?
15:52:16 <ski> there's no mutation there
15:52:28 <Guest17> yep, only variable assignment
15:52:31 <ski> primariList <- getDirectoryContests(primariList)
15:52:36 <ski> this is not mutation
15:52:46 <ski> it's just declarring a new variable, which shadows the old one
15:52:47 <geekosaur> that passes a parameter to the rest of the do block
15:53:19 <Guest17> someone have a example of a tree to me to start?
15:53:30 <Guest17> or where i can find it
15:53:49 <ski> data Tree a = Node a [Tree a]
15:54:01 <Guest17> i'm using tuples
15:54:30 <Guest17> let the Node type to work in another hour
15:54:43 <jade[m]> hm?
15:55:00 <Guest17> jade[m] responding to the ski
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15:55:17 <Guest17> *answering
15:55:19 <jade[m]> yeah but I don't understand the response
15:55:23 <jade[m]> trees are recursive by nature
15:55:29 <jade[m]> so how can you use a tuple?
15:55:29 <ski> it's unclear what you're attempting to do, in your code, Guest17
15:55:52 <Guest17> by using a recursion.
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15:56:26 <ski> newetype Tree a = Node (a,[Tree a]) -- variant, using pairs, which are tuples
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15:57:26 <ski> Guest17 : what is the intent of `toScan[leaf] = []' ?
15:57:26 <Guest17> ski I'm attempt to create a garbage collector for my node modules using haskell. this algorithm is was alredy writed in JS, now I'm attempt to do with haskell
15:57:29 <jade[m]> yeah but I don't see why you'd do that
15:57:39 <Guest17> scan a folders
15:58:00 <Guest17> *scan folders
15:58:26 <jade[m]> ok, but translating from an imperative algorithm to a functional one usually isn't that straightforward
15:58:40 <jade[m]> usually the functional one will be easier, but you need to think about the problem at hand
15:59:36 <ski> `Either IO [FilePath] String' also looks quite wrong. i'd suspect you either meant `Either (IO [FilePath]) String', `IO (Either [FilePath] String)', or `ExceptT [FilePath] IO String'
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16:00:25 <Guest17> Either IO [FilePath] String the program receive a string when it ends
16:00:44 <ski> `Either IO [FilePath] String' is a kind error
16:00:54 <ski> `Either' doesn't take three type parameters. it takes two
16:01:05 <Guest17> he is taking to
16:01:09 <Guest17> Either a b
16:01:12 <ski> @kind Either IO [FilePath] String
16:01:13 <lambdabot> error:
16:01:14 <lambdabot> • Expected kind ‘* -> k0’, but ‘Either IO [FilePath]’ has kind ‘*’
16:01:14 <lambdabot> • In the type ‘Either IO [FilePath] String’
16:01:21 <ski> @kind Either (IO [FilePath]) String
16:01:22 <lambdabot> *
16:01:31 <ski> @kind IO (Either [FilePath] String)
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16:01:32 <lambdabot> *
16:01:40 <Guest17> ahh ok
16:01:45 <ski> @kind ExceptT [FilePath] IO String
16:01:46 <lambdabot> *
16:02:33 <jade[m]> but usually you don't need these hugs monad constructs or even transformers for small programs like you are talking about
16:02:36 <ski> (the last two alternatives are basically the same thing, apart from some extra dress-up of the last version. the first alternative is different .. and, i suspect, not what you intended)
16:03:07 <ski> yea. the main question here is why you wrote `Either IO [FilePath] String' to begin with
16:03:23 <Guest17> i have corrected this error
16:03:54 <jade[m]> (I used to do all this exact stuff so I feel the pain)
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16:04:36 <ski> "a garbage collector for my node modules using haskell" -- are you garbage-collecting files in the file system ?
16:05:11 <Guest17> cleanning the node_modules from my projecsts a installing it again when necessary
16:05:32 <ski> by running some external (JS-related) programs, from Haskell ?
16:05:42 <jade[m]> sound like you can do this with a small bash script and find -r lol
16:05:48 <Guest17> ski yep
16:06:20 <ski> why did you think of using `Either' at all ?
16:06:24 <Guest17> jade[m]to leran more of hsakell i decided to do this. have some  time i don't study haskell
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16:06:59 <jade[m]> ah alright
16:08:04 <Guest17> i will research more and come back here.
16:08:22 <ski> you don't want to talk through your code ?
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16:10:54 <Guest17> More research is needed. Principle to work with Node type.
16:10:55 <Guest17> iwill research in trees with haskell
16:11:02 <Guest17> this will do some help for me
16:11:40 <ski> do you really need to use a tree type ?
16:13:03 <Guest17> no, but can grow my kwnoledge
16:13:34 <Guest17> when was said to do more functional
16:13:56 <Guest17> i will need to research for examples.
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16:16:26 <ski> perhaps getting a textbook could help
16:16:36 <Guest17> ok
16:16:54 <Guest17> have one in mind?
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16:23:21 <int-e> @where rwh
16:23:21 <lambdabot> http://www.realworldhaskell.org/blog/ http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/
16:23:24 <int-e> @where lyah
16:23:24 <lambdabot> http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/
16:23:32 <ski> @where PiH
16:23:32 <lambdabot> "Programming in Haskell" by Graham Hutton in 2007-01-15,2016-09-01 at <http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/pih.html>
16:23:52 <int-e> . o ( just stay away from the "gentle introduction" )
16:24:20 <ski> (unless you're already familiar with functional programming .. which doesn't appear to be the case, here)
16:24:42 <ncf> i'm surprised by how rarely the wikibook is recommended... is there anything wrong with it?
16:24:44 <geekosaur> of the three, I prefer the Hutton. but if you don't want to or can't spend money on it, the Haskell Wikibook is okay
16:24:49 <geekosaur> @where wikibook
16:24:49 <lambdabot> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell
16:25:08 <hyiltiz> Has anyone have any experience with the `padic` package by sergey?
16:25:24 <geekosaur> it's just nowhere near as good as Hutton's. but I consider it much better than LYAH
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16:26:03 <ncf> i should probably read the Hutton and adjust my recommendation list then :)
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16:36:40 <Guest17> thanks folks. When I could help anyone I'm leaving. Thanks for the recomendations.
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17:20:35 <jade[m]> is there a nice overview for what parser combinator library is useful for what?
17:20:48 <jade[m]> because it seems like they all basically do the same with minor differences
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17:38:17 <geekosaur> what seems to be, is
17:38:46 <geekosaur> there are some differences, for example attoparsec is well designed for streaming input
17:39:59 <geekosaur> but by and large you get the same thing from all of them these days
17:40:29 <geekosaur> at one point trifecta produced the best error messages, but then megaparsec upped its game in response
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17:49:24 <user363627> what's a recommended way to install haskell-language-server for the latest stack snapshot?
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17:57:16 <user363627> oh there's a ghcup these days
17:58:26 <chreekat> bingo
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18:32:13 <EvanR> attoparsec is more convenient for parsing Word8 stream, megaparsec seems more convenient for parsing text. Supposedly you can reconfigure the token types but I never succeeded
18:33:24 <geekosaur> you can but you need to provide your own convenience wrappers
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18:34:21 <geekosaur> this does make a certain amount of sense because they'll tend to depend on how they're being used; otherwise you just get a harder to use binary/cereal
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18:38:01 <EvanR> for megaparsec you have to implement Stream, and now I see there's already an instance for Ord a => Stream [a], did not investigate that
18:38:14 <EvanR> I wonder what the Ord is for
18:39:30 <tomsmeding> perhaps to be able to use it as a key for a Map somewhere
18:39:31 <EvanR> the instance doesn't seem to need it
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18:42:28 <EvanR> oh, the class requires it
18:42:37 <Hecate> Stream, VisualStream & TraversableStream
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18:49:35 <EvanR> and once you do all that, how do you form a new primitive Parsec(T) to start writing the parser
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18:51:41 <EvanR> use the newtype wrapper which takes a State s e -> (a -> State s e -> Hints (Token s) -> m b) -> (ParseError s e -> State s e -> m b) -> (a -> State s e -> Hints (Token s) -> m b) -> (ParseError s e -> State s e -> m b) -> m b ?
18:52:24 <jade[m]> Jesus that's a bunch
18:52:55 <EvanR> high octane Reader monad xD
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18:54:41 <EvanR> ParsecT $ \s cok cerr eok eerr -> _
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18:57:40 <smoge> How can I make it work for all kinds of nested lists?
18:57:40 <smoge> ghci> read "[[1]]" :: [[Int]]
18:57:41 <smoge> [[1]]
18:57:41 <smoge> ghci> read "[[1], [1, 2]]" :: [[Int]]
18:57:42 <smoge> [[1],[1,2]]
18:57:42 <smoge> ghci> read "[[1], [1, [2]]]" :: [[Int]]
18:57:43 <smoge> *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
18:57:43 <smoge> ghci> read "[[1], [1, [2]]]" :: [[[Int]]]
18:57:44 <smoge> *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
18:58:03 <xerox> :t [1,[2]]
18:58:04 <lambdabot> (Num a, Num [a]) => [[a]]
18:58:29 <EvanR> use a tree instead of a list
18:58:37 <xerox> not really a value
18:58:40 <hpc> :t [False, [True, False]] -- a bit more clear
18:58:41 <lambdabot> error:
18:58:41 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘[Bool]’
18:58:42 <lambdabot> • In the expression: [True, False]
18:59:01 <smoge> I just want to use lisp lists and convert into haskell lists of lists, regardless of their structure
18:59:27 <EvanR> define a proper data type to represent lisp lists
18:59:57 <EvanR> or more likely, a lisp value which might be a list
19:00:13 <smoge> listStringToHaskell "(1 (2 (3 4) 5) 6)"
19:00:14 <smoge> -- Returns: -- [1,[2,[3,4],5],6]
19:00:21 <dsal> These kinds of things are a bit easier if you look at the types first.
19:00:23 <hpc> lisp lists are trees
19:00:27 <smoge> How to do it to work with any lisp list?
19:00:31 <smoge> yes
19:00:51 <EvanR> yeah it can't be a haskell list because haskell lists elements are all the same type
19:00:53 <hpc> don't be fooled by the name - it's like how python's "lists" are just its word for the array data structure
19:01:01 <hpc> even in the 50s they were naming things poorly :D
19:01:22 <smoge> So I need to parse and create a tree. No way around it?
19:01:36 <hpc> yeah
19:01:52 <EvanR> data Lisp = List [Lisp] | Symbol String | Number Double | Boolean Bool | ...
19:02:27 <ncf> more like data SExp = Nil | Cons SExp SExp | Atom ...
19:02:31 <hpc> personally i would cut it off at List/Symbol
19:02:46 <ncf> (1 . 2) = Cons (Atom 1) (Atom 2)
19:03:00 <ncf> (1 2) = Cons (Atom 1) (Cons (Atom 2) Nil)
19:03:07 <ncf> you can probably define an IsList instance
19:03:08 <smoge> I tried that, it returns something like  Right (List [Number 1,List [Number 2,List [Number 3,Number (-4)]],Number 5,List [Number 6,List [Number 7,List [Number 8,List [Number (-9),Number 10]]]]])
19:03:09 <smoge> How do I use it afterward? I goit a bit confused at this point
19:03:22 <EvanR> what do you want to do with it
19:03:40 <EvanR> ncf's version might be more lispy
19:05:23 <smoge> I want to iterate through the list, to transform it into music rhythm structures
19:05:41 <smoge> maybe my mind is too imperative still
19:05:51 <ncf> oh you're probably fine with lists instead of cons cells then
19:06:03 <EvanR> to iterate through the tree, you can write a recursive algorithm
19:06:36 <dsal> Though most things you'd need to do through the tree are already done and you can just reuse them.
19:06:50 <smoge> What is this " Right", all parsers return this? How to I deal with it later?
19:06:59 ← bbhoss parts (sid18216@id-18216.tinside.irccloud.com) ()
19:06:59 <dsal> Right is a constructor of Either
19:07:02 <EvanR> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
19:07:17 <EvanR> use pattern matching to detect which case you get
19:07:24 <smoge> ok
19:07:29 <EvanR> Right means right and Left means parse error
19:07:53 <EvanR> in this case
19:09:02 <EvanR> pattern matching it also the basic way to iterate through a (haskell) list, a list is either the empty list or some element and some list tail
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19:14:26 <TMA> I thought it is usually the other way around. Left result, Right error
19:14:27 <smoge> Something like
19:14:27 <smoge> getTree :: Either String Value -> Maybe [Int]
19:14:28 <smoge> getTree (Right (List xs)) = Just (extractTree xs)
19:14:29 <smoge> getTree _                 = Nothing
19:14:29 <smoge> ??
19:14:49 <jean-paul[m]> TMA: It isn't.
19:14:56 <jean-paul[m]> Here's a mnemonic for you. Right is right.
19:15:17 <jean-paul[m]> (oops EvanR said it already)
19:15:37 <dsal> smoge: that's almost `fmap extractTree` if you didn't want it to throw away the error.
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19:16:30 <smoge> getTree :: Either String Value -> Maybe [Int]
19:16:31 <smoge> getTree (Right (List xs)) = Just xs
19:16:31 <smoge> getTree _                 = Nothing
19:16:32 <dsal> @hoogle Either a b -> Maybe b
19:16:33 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Combinators rightToMaybe :: Either a b -> Maybe b
19:16:34 <lambdabot> Data.Either.Extra eitherToMaybe :: Either a b -> Maybe b
19:16:34 <lambdabot> Extra eitherToMaybe :: Either a b -> Maybe b
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19:17:01 <dsal> smoge: You're doing two different things here. It might be better to think of them separately.
19:17:09 <smoge> ok
19:17:22 <dsal> One thing is converting the `Either String Value` to `Maybe Value`. The other is doing a `Value -> X`
19:18:34 <dsal> You might as well keep the `Either` unless you have a really good reason to throw away errors.
19:20:12 <dsal> Both `Either` and `Maybe` are functors, so you can use `fmap` to just ignore them and work on the `Value -> X` part.
19:20:26 <smoge> oh
19:20:26 <EvanR> one way is to handle the parse error immediately in your program, otherwise continue with the non-error
19:20:43 <EvanR> esp if you don't expect to have any failures past that point
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19:21:38 <EvanR> case parseTheThing str of Left msg -> crashAndBurn msg; Right value -> mainLoop value
19:22:15 <jade[m]> can you please provide an implementation of crashAndBurn
19:22:22 <jade[m]> i'd like to see that
19:22:29 <EvanR> halt and catch fire
19:22:49 <TMA> jean-paul[m]: It got it somehow mixed. I thought of it as an extension to Maybe, which is usually described as data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing adding another type parameter for the error and becoming data Either a b = Left a | Right b
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19:23:15 <EvanR> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a? xD
19:23:20 <smoge>  So no need to have this?
19:23:21 <smoge>   Left err          -> Left $ show err
19:23:21 <smoge>   Right proportions -> Right proportions
19:23:25 <jean-paul[m]> withCString says "the Haskell string may not contain any NUL characters". What if it does?
19:23:30 <dsal> TMA: it gets clear when you try to do make a functor instance.
19:24:04 <TMA> EvanR: if that would be the usual way to introduced, then yes, that confusion would go away
19:24:09 <smoge> Better?
19:24:10 <smoge>   Left err          -> Left $ show err
19:24:10 <EvanR> smoge, think of the case as dispatching the Left or Right and going in two independent directions
19:24:10 <smoge>   Right proportions -> Right proportions
19:24:20 <smoge>   Left err          -> Left $ show err
19:24:21 <smoge>   Right proportions -> Just proportions
19:24:31 <EvanR> rewrapping with Left and Right is possible not unnecessary here
19:24:41 <EvanR> what
19:24:48 <EvanR> possible but unnecessary here
19:25:11 <mauke> jean-paul[m]: then your C string gets cut off
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19:25:24 <dsal> smoge: it's not clear what you're trying to do. But worrying about what Either is doing is probably slowing your progress. You can write your code assuming you have whatever `Value` is and just `fmap` it.
19:25:27 <EvanR> my suggestion was assuming you were handling the parse error in IO before going on
19:25:29 <smoge> Ok, but I'm still confused what I can write after Right XXXX ->
19:25:42 <EvanR> anything that type checks
19:25:50 <smoge> ok oh
19:26:06 <EvanR> if you want to return Maybe [Int], then I guess the only option is Nothing
19:26:25 <EvanR> otherwise you'd be making up some numbers, since the parse failed
19:26:27 <jean-paul[m]> mauke: okay. could be worse.
19:27:17 <EvanR> assume you will handle the parse failure somehow and write your main code assuming you have a Value
19:27:25 <EvanR> figure out how to connect it later
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19:28:37 <EvanR> TMA,
19:28:39 <EvanR> @src Maybe
19:28:39 <lambdabot> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
19:29:16 <smoge> Ok, any guide that I could read about it?
19:29:40 <smoge> Also, I'm trying to "rotate a tree". How can I get started with that? For eample:
19:29:40 <smoge> (1 ( 2 (3 -4)) 5 ( 6 (7 ( 8 (-9 10)))))
19:29:41 <smoge> (2 ( 3 (-4 5)) 6 ( 7 (8 ( -9 (10 1)))))
19:29:41 <smoge> (3 ( -4 (5 6)) 7 ( 8 (-9( 10 (1 2)))))
19:30:04 <mauke> .oO( logrotate )
19:30:17 <TMA> EvanR: The tutorials I have encountered had it the other way around
19:30:26 <dsal> You can do that with biplate, but… I'm not sure you're ready for that.
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19:31:06 <mauke> > Nothing < Just ()
19:31:07 <lambdabot> True
19:32:22 <EvanR> i question writing Just a first because when you inductively define a data structure or whatever, you probably want a base case like Nothing to start with
19:32:27 <smoge> Ok, but could I some code that does something similar, just to have a sense?
19:32:29 <EvanR> @src List
19:32:29 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
19:32:33 <EvanR> @src []
19:32:33 <lambdabot> data [] a = [] | a : [a]
19:33:41 <EvanR> smoge, are you sure an arbitrary tree is the best structure for this. What other operations are you expecting to do
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19:34:10 <EvanR> rotate would be easier as a list, or a Data.Sequence
19:34:15 <dsal> If you're treating it like a list, a list might be easier. Because rotating a list is trivial, but rotating a tree is probably a lot of work.
19:34:18 <smoge> https://support.ircam.fr/docs/om/om6-manual/co/RT1.html
19:34:48 <smoge> rotate tree, substitute a leaf with a branch (subdivision)
19:34:59 <EvanR> a list of measures, each of which is divided somehow
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19:35:19 <EvanR> maybe
19:36:37 <dsal> The way I'd do this might be a bit difficult to understand right away.
19:36:49 <smoge> yes, the idea is to manipulate the tree, each measure is also a subtree
19:37:06 <dsal> I'm not even sure how easy it'd be to get a typesafe measure. I kind of want to try now. heh.
19:37:38 <EvanR> dependent types to the 'rescue'? xD
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19:37:45 <smoge> I was trying to have a project to learn haskell, but maybe that's too hard.
19:37:59 <smoge> but if I go back to python, I will never learn haskell :)
19:38:02 <EvanR> choice of data structure is definitely key to doing things easily in haskell
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19:38:40 <EvanR> but it takes experience to know what kind of data structures are out there
19:38:46 <smoge> Yes, in this case, is there a specific kind of tree that would be easier to work?
19:38:55 <dsal> Not fully dependent, but you can have a type of Measure that has a division count and you could imagine a Measure made up of `Division 1 <+> Division 1 <+> Division 1 <+> Division 1`- I don't know that you can have fractional literals, though.
19:38:57 <EvanR> that depends entirely on the operations you need
19:40:15 <dsal> Doing it without type safety would be pretty straightforward. A Subdivision contains a list of subdivisions and the subdivision lengths are expected to add up to your measure length.
19:40:35 <smoge>  <+> is being used to represent some kind of binary operation on Division (tree)  values? substitution?
19:41:24 <EvanR> dsal looks like they are just constructing the data, not doing anything with it
19:42:11 <dsal> Yeah, so you would imagine adding a `a <+> b` where `a, b :: Division (1/8)` and the result would be `Division (1/4)` and a measure would have type `Division 1`. So you wouldn't be able to stick an eight note into a measure and have it compile.
19:42:20 <EvanR> anyway, if you just want to rotate, you can use a list of rational numbers
19:42:26 <dsal> EvanR: Yeah, I'm just looking at this page and trying to figure out how I might push stuff into the type system.
19:43:12 <EvanR> then each division can be subdivided arbitrarily
19:43:16 <dsal> The "easiest" way to rotate is biplate, but that's going to leave you completely baffled. A zipper might help. But the structure is just kind of not good at that. You could have a parallel structure.
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19:43:58 <smoge> Does it make any sense?
19:43:58 <smoge> rotate :: Tree a -> Tree a
19:43:59 <smoge> rotate (Node [a, Node [b, c], d])    = Node [b, Node [a, c], d]
19:44:00 <smoge> rotate (Node [a, Node [b, c, d], e]) = Node [Node [a, b], c, Node [d, e]]
19:44:00 <smoge> rotate (Node xs)                     = Node (map rotate xs)
19:44:00 <smoge> rotate t                             = t
19:44:10 <EvanR> are you assuming a specific configuration
19:44:27 <EvanR> is the first element always a number and not a subtree
19:44:32 <smoge> yes... I can't figure out artitrary structures
19:46:14 <smoge> maybe just rotate a flattened list and populate a new tree with the old structure... ?
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19:47:12 <EvanR> do you need arbitrary levels? Or is it just 2 levels
19:47:50 <smoge> arbitrary, because each measure will be unique structure
19:48:22 <EvanR> is the idea to take a measure and map it to note times?
19:48:43 <EvanR> that wouldn't require putting the tree structure back
19:49:24 <EvanR> I'm half curious what python would do to help you out of this xD
19:49:56 <smoge> the Ideia is that you separate the duration of the measure and a tree that describes how time is divided following  a (simple or nested) proportion
19:50:30 <EvanR> yeah that's representing something, but then what
19:50:42 <EvanR> draw a picture, play a song or
19:50:53 <EvanR> edit it with an editor
19:51:14 <smoge> it can be divided into four equal parts (1 1 1 1), or the second element can be subdivided into 3 parts (1 (1 (1 1 1) 1 1)
19:51:26 <smoge> that's the lisp data structure
19:51:47 <smoge> (1 (1 (1 1 1)) 1 1)
19:51:57 <EvanR> what would (1 2 1 1) mean
19:52:07 <EvanR> 5 parts?
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19:53:56 <smoge> Would mean 4 durations, the second is twice as long. The durations, in this case, would be adjusted to fir the same measure. Probably a "tuplet" 5-in-the-time-of-4
19:54:09 <smoge> fit
19:54:10 <probie> If I remember from the docs last time this what brought up, `(1 2 1 1)` means that in one unit of time (determined by context), there are 4 notes, with the second being twice as long as the other 3
19:54:26 <probie> s/what brought up/was brought up/
19:54:37 <smoge> yeah that's correct
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19:54:49 <EvanR> ok that's the same as what I was thinking
19:54:59 <EvanR> same measure, divided into 5 parts, second note takes two of them
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19:56:11 <smoge> yes. The idea is that you can manipulate the "proportions" in abstract, since they could be, for example, applied to another measure (longer of shorter) etc
19:56:41 <smoge> the idea is that you can do different kinds of rhythm variations with this data structure
19:56:57 <EvanR> so what does the rotate operation represent, or is it like the act of playing through the measure before looping
19:57:39 <smoge> but if haskell don't like changing the structure at all by default, maybe there is an alternative way to do it
19:58:22 <smoge> the rotation operation creates a new rhythm inside the measure, it's one of the most abstract, actually
19:59:00 <EvanR> alright, discarding what I was thinking. So you want to edit a piece of your tree
19:59:12 <geekosaur> art of the fugue?
20:00:07 <ncf> contrapuntal functor
20:00:33 <ncf> parametric polyrhythm
20:00:36 <ncf> etc.
20:00:36 <EvanR> MonadFugueState
20:00:37 <smoge> yes, I want to take of one number and replace with a subdivision. or find all combination of a set of numbers that the sum is always x, etc
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20:00:42 <smoge> all sorts of things
20:00:58 <EvanR> ok haskell can do that
20:01:22 <EvanR> on the first part, the key is specifying which place you want to make the edit at
20:01:36 <probie> Prelude in C--?
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20:01:52 <jade[m]> huh?
20:02:17 <EvanR> you could use a sort of path like xpath, or upgrade to zippers. A zipper is like a cursor into your structure where you want to make an edit
20:02:30 <smoge> can you point out some material that might shed some light?
20:02:56 <EvanR> but if you never editing any haskell data structure before, maybe start by writing a function to edit a list
20:02:57 <smoge> zipper sounds like it, I think
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20:03:51 <smoge> ok, I'll practice with lists first
20:03:58 <EvanR> everything I read about zippers is confusing, maybe someone has a good resource. But it's probably considered more advanced
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20:04:51 <EvanR> very pedestrian, non-zipper list editor would have type (a -> a) -> Int -> [a] -> [a]
20:05:15 <geekosaur> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmonad-0.17.2/docs/XMonad-StackSet.html#g:2 might be more approachable than other descriptions
20:06:09 <geekosaur> since it doesn't go on and on about derivatives and one-hole contexts and such
20:06:32 <jade[m]> https://wiki.haskell.org/Zipper
20:06:32 <jade[m]> uses a tree as an example, if that is desirable
20:09:22 <smoge> thank you!
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20:09:43 geekosaur opens, since list zippers he understands but has yet to wrap his head around how you zipper a tree
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20:11:48 <EvanR> haha xmonad mentions mcbride derivative paper but doesn't put a link
20:12:08 <EvanR> that's the only only zipper thing I actually understood
20:12:11 <dolio> A list is a unary tree. So a zipper stores the node values above you, a focused value, and the list below you.
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20:12:41 <dolio> A zipper for a binary tree stores the node values and branches you didn't follow above you, a focused value, and the tree below you.
20:14:08 <dolio> Or ditch the 'focused value' part since it makes zippers undefined for empty structures.
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20:15:19 <geekosaur> hm, I just checked and didn't see a good "primary" link for it, while filing a doc bug
20:18:41 <geekosaur> researchgate claims you have to request an official copy from Conor, although various other outlets provide copies of it (notably strictlypositive.org)
20:19:16 <dolio> If you get it from there, you are requesting it from Conor. :þ
20:19:51 <jade[m]> ime finding papers is always a pain
20:19:56 <jade[m]> so many paywalls and stuff
20:26:09 <geekosaur> anyway I filed a doc bug, we should at least mention the title, if not provide a link
20:27:15 <geekosaur> also while poking at this I found out the zipper page on the haskell wiki has a dead link (http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~ctm/)
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21:10:47 <janus> geekosaur: i fixed the link, thanks
21:11:43 <janus> it doesn't actually seem to have had any papers on it though
21:11:46 <janus> how rare
21:13:07 <janus> but there are just tons of dead links on the haskell wiki
21:13:39 <janus> it's amazing how the archive.is person/team had the foresight to archive these ten years ago
21:13:52 <janus> somehow i find a lot more stuff archived with them than at the Internet Archive
21:13:57 <janus> and the interface is better too
21:14:28 <janus> there just to be a big discussion at Wikipedia where people would be afraid of using archive.is because it wasn't established like the Internet Archive
21:14:45 <janus> we really should archive the archive...
21:15:58 <darkling> Multiple copies is good.
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23:00:48 <segfaultfizzbuzz> what is there other than algebraic data types? are there uh, non-algebraic data types?
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23:01:12 <geekosaur> C's, for example
23:01:27 <segfaultfizzbuzz> C?
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23:02:07 <segfaultfizzbuzz> oh like C as in the programming language,...?
23:02:32 <segfaultfizzbuzz> i mean as a way of gluing together "basic types" or "atomic types" by the way
23:02:45 <geekosaur> "algebraic" means they're designed around an algebraic view of types. basically sums and products, but there are others as well which may not be supported by some algebraic-type languages; for example, haskell doesn't support quotient types
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23:03:09 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ah interesting,... is there a larger list of these types of types?
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23:03:33 <geekosaur> and the notion of sums and products is based on basic algebra but elevated to types, and can be thought of as representing the number of inhabitants of a type
23:04:07 <segfaultfizzbuzz> right
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23:04:24 <geekosaur> so Bool has value 2, Maybe a is a + 1 (Nothing), sum types you add the values together, product types you multiply them, etc.
23:04:38 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so there's product, sum, and quotient, and that's it?
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23:05:09 <geekosaur> there's more. we were discussing Conor McBride's paper about derivatives of types in here earlier, for example
23:06:00 <geekosaur> sums and products are just the easiest ones to consider
23:06:10 <c_wraith> functions are exponents
23:06:35 <segfaultfizzbuzz> right
23:06:57 <segfaultfizzbuzz> wild
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23:08:08 <segfaultfizzbuzz> so the derivative of a type can require its own uh, not sure what to call this-- type-type? like a derivative of an algebraic data type should probably also be algebraic (?) or can it escape algebraicity?
23:08:34 <geekosaur> it's only meaningful in a system of algebraic types
23:09:48 <geekosaur> (well, presumably someone could come up with a different context in which it has meaning, but when we talk about it we're working in a system of algebraic data types so the result will also be an algebraic data type)
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23:10:37 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ...so in haskell, if you are not doing FFI, then there are only algebraic data types?
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23:11:23 <geekosaur> yes
23:11:31 <segfaultfizzbuzz> that is very clarifying, thanks
23:11:48 <geekosaur> I'd ague even with FFI you only have types which can be represented by algebraic data types
23:11:55 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and so the entirety of haskell types are then the fundamental types (Int32, Char, etc), algebraic data types, and then weird FFI stuff?
23:12:31 <geekosaur> we can't do C unions, for example, unless we can treat them as tagged unions in which case we can model them as sum types
23:12:44 <ncf> segfaultfizzbuzz: there's also functions! and polymorphism!
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23:13:00 <segfaultfizzbuzz> by the way you are describing this it sounds like memory layout and type are the same or somehow deeply linked?
23:13:12 <ncf> "algebraic data type" isn't really a meaningful concept semantically afaik
23:13:44 <ncf> it just refers to the syntax you can use to make product and sum types (but these are just ways of combining old types into new types)
23:14:23 <segfaultfizzbuzz> ncf: i can construct a "composite type" from operations linking "fundamental types" (not sure of the right jargon here), and so an algebraic data type allows you to construct a composite type from sum and product
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23:20:32 <ncf> (oh and i guess they also abstract over fixed points)
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23:44:49 <monochrom> I like "newtype D a = MkD (D a -> a)". It may or may not count as an algebraic data type.
23:45:16 <monochrom> And yeah polymorphism too, "newtype I a = MkI (forall r. (a -> r) -> r)"
23:45:30 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hmm
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23:59:08 <Umeaboy> Hi! gprbuild is necessary to port GHC to a new distro, but one of its dependencies are xmlada-sources according to the spec file for Fedora 39, but that package does NOT exist. Is it safe to delete the need of that package or should I comment it out?

All times are in UTC on 2023-06-26.