Logs on 2023-06-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:19:22 | <nyc> | I'm getting chains of dependencies and even when I try to ghc-pkg-9.6.2 register beforehand it fetches bad/outdated versions of second-order dependencies. |
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| 01:29:52 | <sm> | nyc: worth trying with stackage nightly to simplify the problem ? |
| 01:30:40 | <nyc> | sm: Will that make it easier somehow? I'm not sure how many packages have stackage build things. |
| 01:36:13 | <sm> | it simplifies the problem of finding an install plan (assuming most of your deps are in there). Easy to try. |
| 01:37:39 | <jackdk> | I never understood this - doesn't stackage just take one particular solution from the cabal constraints? |
| 01:38:03 | <sm> | if you succeed then you'd know at least one install plan that can help you constrain cabal similarly |
| 01:38:22 | <sm> | that's right jackdk |
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| 01:39:10 | <sm> | sometimes things build more easily with cabal, sometimes more easily with stack depending on the situation |
| 01:42:59 | <nyc> | sm: I need to be able to actually get control of where it goes fishing for dependencies because it's getting things off of hackage even though I've got local builds installed -- and the hackage builds fail. |
| 01:45:02 | <sm> | I see a cabal.project file was recommended. Can't that lock down everything you need ? Maybe a cabal freeze file is needed too ? |
| 01:45:55 | <sclv> | the project file can point to the local repos intended to override hackage |
| 01:46:38 | <nyc> | sclv: That would be helpful. |
| 01:47:24 | <sm> | is the fine manual not helping :) |
| 01:49:15 | <nyc> | It was not apparent to me that that's what that was. |
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| 01:51:37 | <nyc> | Is the tag a git commit? |
| 01:52:38 | <nyc> | The cabal.project thing may have been a good idea. |
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| 02:53:04 | <glguy> | nyc, are you already looking at : https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/cabal-project.html#specifying-packages-from-remote-version-control-locations ? |
| 02:53:36 | <nyc> | glguy: That's where I got the spec to add the stanzas. |
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| 02:54:55 | <glguy> | I expect that the tag can be any reference: commit id, tag, branch, etc - but the examples appear to be commit ids |
| 02:56:53 | <nyc> | I used commit ID's and they worked. |
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| 05:01:49 | <dsal> | I have a type `data Reading a = Reading UTCTime (Set Text) a` and a type `data Metric a = Metric Text Text [Reading a]` and then a sum type that allows for expected variations, e.g. `data MetricType = DoubleMetric (Metric Double) | ...` |
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| 05:03:03 | <dsal> | I'm trying to find some common ways to go, e.g. `MetricType -> (Set Text -> b) -> b` or something that folds the type-specific values. I can't quite figure out what a sensible lens type would be for this. |
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| 05:04:01 | <dsal> | I ended up with `extract :: Monoid m => (forall a. Metric a -> m) -> MetricType -> m` which is… fine, I guess. I just feel like I should be able to do better. |
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| 05:13:48 | <jackdk> | dsal: best I can give you is a bunch of existentials, like `data SomeMetric = forall a. SomeMetric (Metric a)` and optics like `metrics :: Fold MetricType SomeMetric`, but then you need a `SomeReading` and a `Fold SomeMetric SomeReading` because I don't know how to do good optics for existentials |
| 05:15:15 | <dsal> | Hmm... Yeah, looking at some of these other bits I've not looked at before is at least interesting. And more interesting than the actual problem I'm trying to solve. :) |
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| 05:41:11 | glguy | releases https://hackage.haskell.org/package/toml-parser-1.0.0.0 - which seems to be the most fully featured, and actually 1.0.0 compliant package on hackage now :) |
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| 05:52:53 | <dsal> | I made `metSrc :: Getting [Set Text] MetricType [Set Text]` which works fine. `x ^. metSrc` does what I expect, gives me a `[Set Text]` but `x ^. metSrc . folded` gives me a type error. Seems I have no idea what I'm talking about. |
| 05:56:32 | <dsal> | The neat magic here is that the implementation works, but the type signature is wrong. heh |
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| 05:58:53 | <dsal> | Compiler says the right answer is `(Profunctor p, Contravariant f1, Applicative f2, Monoid (f2 (Set Text))) => Optic' p f1 MetricType (f2 (Set Text))` – obviously |
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| 06:03:18 | <glguy> | dsal: can you use Getter instead of Getting? |
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| 06:04:18 | <jackdk> | dsal https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/c3R2f7SH/MetSrcs.hs |
| 06:05:55 | <glguy> | Getting wants to know the final result type |
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| 06:07:44 | <dsal> | Oh. It makes sense that I'd want a Fold if I intend to folded |
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| 06:14:11 | <dsal> | glguy: I don't quite understand Getter, either. The Fold mechanism above basically works, but I don't want `Text`, I want `[Set Text]` which isn't really what I'd consider a fold, though it does behave the way I'd expect. |
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| 06:16:32 | <jackdk> | dsal: `Getter` doesn't commit to a particular functor yet, it just says that it'll work for any functor phantom in `a`. `Getting` commits to `Const` and furthermore locks down the return type, which is why it shows up in the signature for `view` |
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| 06:18:02 | <dsal> | The weird part is that more things compile than end up being usable. |
| 06:20:54 | <dsal> | Ah, yeah, so `metSrcg :: Getter MetricType [Set Text]` does what I expect. |
| 06:21:33 | <Axman6> | glguy: nice work. It's a shame the README's diasgrams don't work on hackage :( |
| 06:23:41 | <Axman6> | diagrams* |
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| 06:26:40 | <dsal> | Thanks, jackdk, glguy |
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| 09:31:20 | <zazaeil> | How do I specify a constraint of sort "has a readonly access to an object `A`" for some monad `m`? Would that be a `forall m . Monad m, ReaderT env m A => ...`? |
| 09:35:47 | <ncf> | that would be read access to an object of type env, but yes |
| 09:35:59 | <ncf> | wait what |
| 09:36:14 | <ncf> | no, if you want that as a typeclass constraint you should use MonadReadear |
| 09:36:17 | <ncf> | MonadReader* |
| 09:36:34 | <ncf> | (Monad m, MonadReader env m) => ... |
| 09:39:24 | <zazaeil> | `class (Monad m, MonadReader App m) => HasApp m where { getApp :: m App ; getApp = ask }` - would that do? |
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| 09:40:19 | <ncf> | type HasApp = MonadReader App |
| 09:40:56 | <ncf> | making a type class is only useful if you want to override the default implementation `ask` in some cases |
| 09:42:34 | <zazaeil> | It is the case since I also need to unit-test my code as much as possible and I'd like to feed in a fake `App` with preset parameters... or would I be able to do that with `type HasApp = MonadReader App` too? |
| 09:42:59 | <ncf> | yes |
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| 10:08:08 | <zazaeil> | And say I want a decent logger abstraction. Would that be a `class Monad m => HasLog m where logDebug :: Text -> m (IO ())`? Not taking into account that a decent logger must provide much more formatting capabilities and other stuff? More concerned with a well typing ATM. |
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| 10:12:45 | <ncf> | a logger is basically a Writer, but there are more sophisticated abstractions in e.g. monad-logger |
| 10:20:51 | <zazaeil> | ncf: eventually I want something like `myFunc (HasLogger m, HasApp m, HasFoo m, HasBar m) => Whatever -> Is -> Needed -> m (Result)`. |
| 10:20:57 | <mniip> | m (IO ()) ?? |
| 10:21:45 | <mniip> | I would say context :: Context -> m a -> m a; log :: Message -> m () |
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| 10:23:19 | <zazaeil> | mniip: at what point of time it would become an IO then? would that be something alike `do liftIO $ log (Message "Hello World!")`? |
| 10:23:57 | <mniip> | that would be up to your instances |
| 10:24:31 | <mniip> | you could have instance HasLog IO |
| 10:24:46 | <mniip> | (though that would necessitate having a global logger, which is questionable) |
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| 10:30:55 | <hellwolf[m]> | Has anyone here used Raku (previously perl6).... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/2573d49d5f3b404cf1b544f52de682a775c73923>) |
| 10:32:37 | <arahael> | I hate that part of the matrix bridge. :( |
| 10:33:06 | <yushyin> | i tend to ignore it |
| 10:33:39 | <arahael> | I sometimes ignore it. |
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| 10:58:04 | <danse-nr3_> | Haskell is Lisp's missing M-Expression (from https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell_Lisp) and M-expressions are perceived as inable to cope with macros (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression#For_LISP) ... interesting |
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| 11:00:23 | <danse-nr3_> | maybe there is something theoretically impossible to bridge behind that divergence long time ago |
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| 11:38:30 | <arahael> | Just idly 'wondering' while half asleep... What's the current go-to library for writing a graphics app? sdl2? |
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| 11:43:41 | <tomsmeding> | is there one? |
| 11:43:53 | <tomsmeding> | there are old ones and experimental ones, was my impression |
| 11:44:39 | <tomsmeding> | though if you indeed want pixel graphics and not a user interface, sdl2 is the traditional choice |
| 11:45:09 | <chromoblob> | how hard it is to write a Haskell program targeting the browser? easier than writing native JS program? |
| 11:45:42 | <Hecate> | chromoblob: do you know how to write JS in the first place? |
| 11:45:46 | <chromoblob> | yes yes |
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| 11:46:15 | <Square2> | chromoblob, Miso is lovely |
| 11:46:31 | <chromoblob> | just, may generate some boilerplate or "structure" code which may be obnoxious enough |
| 11:46:47 | <danse-nr3> | chromoblob, is that a joke? How can it be easier? |
| 11:46:50 | <chromoblob> | "generate" i mean the code may appear |
| 11:47:24 | <Square2> | https://haskell-miso.org/ |
| 11:48:04 | <danse-nr3> | based on GHCJS ... hmmm |
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| 11:48:54 | <arahael> | chromoblob: I'm excited about GHC's experimental WASM backend. |
| 11:49:13 | <arahael> | chromoblob: Like, it's becoming officially supported in GHC. (But not yet in bindists) |
| 11:49:29 | <Square2> | GHCJS is also getting a ghc backend. |
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| 11:49:52 | <arahael> | Square2: Intriguing. Why support GHCJS in addition to wasm? |
| 11:50:05 | <danse-nr3> | chromoblob, maybe also check Purescript if you care about easiness |
| 11:50:31 | <chromoblob> | i don't need something fancy, i just need some basic IO like basic Canvas API calls, mouse events and multiline text editing |
| 11:50:32 | <arahael> | purescript is nice and smol. |
| 11:50:44 | <danse-nr3> | chromoblob, then also check Elm |
| 11:50:47 | <chromoblob> | "purescript", bah, another language to learn... |
| 11:50:58 | <Square2> | arahael, I asked a person knowing more on this the same question. As I understand it, FFI is easier with GHCJS still. |
| 11:51:05 | <arahael> | chromoblob: It's very similar to haskell. (But strict by default) |
| 11:51:15 | <Square2> | maybe even more motivations. |
| 11:51:26 | <arahael> | Square2: Fair point about that FFI, that's still TBD with the wasm backend. |
| 11:52:29 | <danse-nr3> | yeah that is a good point ... i just wish GHCJS had more maintainers |
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| 11:53:40 | <chromoblob> | i also don't need huge performance |
| 11:55:38 | <danse-nr3> | also with mobile app dev we are not that lucky ... a lot of time has passed since when i looked but i think that only Keera studios was pushing towards that |
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| 11:58:20 | <danse-nr3> | i wonder whether wasm is a bridge towards mobile as much as javascript is ... i guess not |
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| 12:04:42 | <chromoblob> | record types and row polymorphism in Purescript are cool |
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| 12:06:11 | <chromoblob> | but why in the world it has no tuples |
| 12:07:17 | <ncf> | if you have records you don't need tuples |
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| 12:08:18 | <Axman6> | chromoblob: purescript is very much just 98% haskell, if you know haskell,m it's not a big leap - the web stuff is what makes it hard, not the language |
| 12:10:14 | <Axman6> | maybe more like 90% (: |
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| 12:14:01 | <chromoblob> | ncf: really? i have to type all this boilerplate? { a: a, b: b } instead of (a, b)? |
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| 12:16:32 | <arahael> | Square2: I was just playing the tetris demo for miso. Pretty good. |
| 12:17:09 | <chromoblob> | not only type, also see |
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| 12:17:39 | <arahael> | I do kind of want "native" gui, though. Would prefer to move away from the html5 mess. |
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| 12:19:40 | <arahael> | Well, I should actually get to bed. Thanks for the suggestions above. |
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| 12:24:15 | <chromoblob> | hm, why isn't Effect named IO, given that it really is IO and author of PureScript created the language after failing to compile Haskell to JS |
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| 12:24:51 | <chromoblob> | also, Unit... |
| 12:25:49 | <chromoblob> | arahael: thank you for telling me about Purescript |
| 12:25:57 | <chromoblob> | i didn't know that it is very like Haskell |
| 12:26:25 | <arahael> | chromoblob: Just beware that being strict by default instead of non-strict does make you need to approach problems slightly differently. |
| 12:26:51 | <chromoblob> | i think it makes me insert defer/force explicitly |
| 12:27:11 | <chromoblob> | which for laziness-heavy code may clutter it considerably |
| 12:27:19 | <arahael> | chromoblob: It's a bit more than that. As for Effect rather than IO, it's because it's using effect types, not just IO. |
| 12:28:32 | <chromoblob> | does newer PS target older JS versions? |
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| 12:29:42 | <arahael> | It's been a while since I used purescript, and in any case, I must sleep. G'night. |
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| 14:29:39 | <EvanR> | arahael, for quick easy graphics there's gloss. For robust difficult graphics there is glfw-b + gl. sdl2 is a good middleland for 2D graphics, though falls short of "full vector" graphics. For which your desktop library (gtk, cocoa, ...) exist |
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| 14:53:45 | <danse-nr3> | what could cause the "There is no module named ‘Main’" when `main` is specified in a package.yml? Using `stack bench` |
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| 14:55:02 | <danse-nr3> | the module names can be different from Main when `main` is specified, is it not? |
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| 14:55:50 | <Guillaum[m]> | I observed a surprising behavior. Depending on the order of my import statment, a "redundant import" warning appears or not. Do you know if there is a way to control that and always get the redundant import? |
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| 15:04:28 | <chreekat> | That is surprising |
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| 15:10:04 | <ncf> | sounds like a bug to me |
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| 15:11:20 | <jade[m]> | I think it depends |
| 15:11:43 | <jade[m]> | or wait no |
| 15:11:55 | <geekosaur> | danse-nr3, no, it doesn't look specifically for a `main` function, it looks for a module with no `module` declaration (which will get `module Main where`) or `module Main … where` |
| 15:12:08 | <geekosaur> | you need to use `main-is` otherwise |
| 15:12:31 | <geekosaur> | I don't know how you specify that if you use package,yaml instead of a cabal file |
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| 15:21:23 | <danse-nr3> | thanks geekosaur, it turns out that files in the same dir would get into other-modules when transforming the package.yml into a cabal file, and having a `main` inside that produced an error |
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| 15:42:46 | <sm> | I've seen quite a few of those "obscure error due to choosing wrong name" issues over the years. Unfortunate |
| 15:44:54 | <danse-nr3> | that error looks a bit obscure, probably because it feels obvious in most cases, but here i also had one level of indirection caused by Hpack's default behaviour |
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| 15:46:13 | <danse-nr3> | does anyone know whether cabal's `data` is considered in benchmarks? It does not seem to put the data where Paths can find it |
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| 15:50:38 | <danse-nr3> | probably it is not, i guess a benchmark can just use a direct path |
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| 17:21:59 | <Guest24> | hi,which is better to learn functioanl programming" by myself"?(I am an absolute beginner to programming world),lips or racket or haskell? |
| 17:23:31 | <Guest24> | it is important for me to have free, simple learning resources |
| 17:24:27 | <EvanR> | http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ |
| 17:25:40 | <geekosaur> | @where wikibook |
| 17:25:40 | <lambdabot> | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell |
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| 17:27:22 | <int-e> | LOL, looking at "the competition"... never heard of https://github.com/standardml/smackage :) Funny name, I wonder what inspired it ;-) |
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| 17:28:27 | <justsomeguy> | So, I just discovered that if you change the filetype for a terminal buffer in neovim to Haskell, you can get a colourised GHCi. :term ghci :set ft:haskell |
| 17:28:47 | justsomeguy | has to try emacs next |
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| 17:45:39 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: lol |
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| 17:47:01 | <EvanR> | stackage + hackage + ML what could go wrong |
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| 17:50:04 | <monochrom> | haha smackage |
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| 18:00:51 | <chromoblob> | i didn't know that terminal buffers in vim have filetypes |
| 18:01:30 | <chromoblob> | i wonder does the vim's syntax coloring interact with the program's terminal coloring |
| 18:01:46 | <chromoblob> | how interacts * |
| 18:02:55 | <dolio> | Seems to just override it. |
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| 18:03:07 | <chromoblob> | k thanks |
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| 19:26:59 | <Profpatsch> | Is there a Semigroup Map-Like that <> values instead of preferring the first key? |
| 19:27:22 | <Profpatsch> | I mean it’s trivial to define, but it feels like a weird design decision for the default instance |
| 19:27:43 | <geekosaur> | you're far from the only one to think that |
| 19:27:50 | <Profpatsch> | yeah, right |
| 19:27:52 | <Profpatsch> | weird corner case |
| 19:27:54 | <Profpatsch> | might bite |
| 19:28:38 | <Profpatsch> | So far I’ve avoided the bear trap, but my intuition tells me there’s a Monoid v restriction until I look it up |
| 19:30:28 | <glguy> | I'd rather it didn't have either instance than that it picked one arbitrarily that people had to memorize |
| 19:32:40 | <EvanR> | Data.TotalMap simply uses <> to implement Semigroup |
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| 19:44:43 | <monochrom> | Perhaps use unionWith (<>) |
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| 19:47:29 | <dolio> | It's probably most coherent for that to be the actual instance. But changing it is a big undertaking. |
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| 19:49:52 | <geekosaur> | backward compatibility is probably why it's not done 😞 |
| 19:50:39 | <EvanR> | move slow break things? |
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| 19:51:43 | <dolio> | Unless the rules have changed, you need like 3 years to change it. :þ |
| 19:53:43 | <geekosaur> | 3 versions, I think? so change it and then release once a week, done 😛 |
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| 19:54:32 | <glguy> | It would reinforce the value in upper bounds |
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| 19:57:40 | <EvanR> | Map k a = TMap k (Maybe a), done |
| 19:58:03 | <geekosaur> | except I'm now thinking of an upper bound on I think ByteString in the past, everyone who didn't use one got broken by an upgrade, after everything shook down one of the ByteString maintainers actively told everyone to stop using upper bounds again |
| 19:58:16 | <geekosaur> | sure, so we break as badly next time… |
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| 19:59:43 | <monochrom> | Would that be dons? He's like "base < 10". :) |
| 20:01:23 | <geekosaur> | I want to say bos |
| 20:01:25 | <dolio> | base bounds are a little questionable. But others aren't. |
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| 20:05:12 | <monochrom> | I feel like this is analogous to the intuitionistic vs classical debate. |
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| 20:06:00 | <dolio> | Well, you can question other upper bounds, too. But the reasons in favor of upper bounds don't really help with base. |
| 20:06:13 | <monochrom> | One of them is "don't assert existence until constructed therefore sound", the other is "assert non-constructive existence until a contradiction is found". |
| 20:06:39 | <monochrom> | err, one debate is those two vs each other. |
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| 20:07:49 | <monochrom> | The other debate is "add upper bounds and relax them later" vs "omit upper bounds and update code later" |
| 20:08:31 | <monochrom> | But in this case, the middle is not excluded. Stack people be like "use == bounds". |
| 20:09:46 | <ncf> | i think it's more like "innocent until proven guilty" vs "guilty until proven innocent" |
| 20:09:53 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. |
| 20:10:01 | <EvanR> | version bounds are a free creation of the mind |
| 20:10:15 | <dolio> | All a base bound can do is stop something from building, though. It can't create a build plan with a different base unless you get an entirely different copy of GHC. |
| 20:10:42 | <monochrom> | Well, innocence and guilt apply to the axiom of choice, too. :) |
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| 20:12:31 | <EvanR> | justice has a blind spot |
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| 20:12:56 | <monochrom> | I do write tight upper bounds in most dependencies. If transformers-0.6 is still in the future, I write "transformers < 0.6". |
| 20:13:47 | <monochrom> | Oh, it's already 0.6.1 now? OK, < 0.7 |
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| 20:22:18 | <nyc> | I had to get around some transformers version constraints myself recently. |
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| 20:56:02 | <bratwurst> | i was wondering if there were ideas around version bound inference. |
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| 20:56:49 | <bratwurst> | basically everyone reports what versions worked on their machine to a server and it prints out the bounds of compatibility |
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| 21:07:05 | <davean> | bratwurst: you can only know if bounds don't work, not if they work. |
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| 21:11:30 | <dolio> | Certainly you could try to crowd source the bounds more. |
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| 22:59:35 | → | kupenske_oplatky joins (~priesvitn@koleje-wifi-0025.koleje.cuni.cz) |
| 23:00:02 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:00:28 | → | driib joins (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) |
| 23:03:50 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 23:06:33 | → | iteratee_ joins (~kyle@162.218.222.207) |
| 23:07:41 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:07:55 | → | chromoblob joins (~user@37.113.180.121) |
| 23:08:10 | → | driib joins (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) |
| 23:09:35 | × | iteratee quits (~kyle@162.218.222.207) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
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| 23:15:30 | × | mechap quits (~mechap@user/mechap) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:16:42 | → | mechap joins (~mechap@user/mechap) |
| 23:18:12 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:18:29 | × | [itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 23:18:39 | → | driib joins (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) |
| 23:19:14 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@86-86-29-250.fixed.kpn.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 23:22:53 | → | nate2 joins (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 23:24:56 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:25:24 | → | driib joins (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) |
| 23:27:38 | × | nate2 quits (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 23:32:23 | × | foul_owl quits (~kerry@157.97.134.168) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 23:32:34 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:34:42 | → | bilegeek joins (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b086:14cf:b61b:e53c:a53f:5c4c) |
| 23:37:51 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:39:08 | × | hugo quits (znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
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| 23:44:30 | mauke_ | is now known as mauke |
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| 23:49:54 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:58:05 | × | driib quits (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:58:29 | → | driib joins (~driib@vmi931078.contaboserver.net) |
All times are in UTC on 2023-06-30.