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Logs on 2023-07-08 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:24:31 <EvanR> I wonder what the actual probability is for + to be associative or not on Double
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00:51:56 <geekosaur> isn't there a variant mathematics that accurately characterizes IEEE754?
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01:28:14 <EvanR> ViewPatterns, the wiki has tantalizing new syntax which denoise the use of Maybe views. Instead of view -> Just x, view => x. But it doesn't seem to exist yet?
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01:38:11 <dolio> a^(b^c) is handy for writing exponential towers, I guess. Maybe people figure that's the main reason to use repeated exponential.
01:39:39 <dolio> Most languages don't have n-ary arithmetic operations, so you have to parse them into some binary tree.
01:46:25 <monochrom> IEEE754 defines floating point plus to be exact plus then rounding. This still induces non-associativity in edge cases.
01:47:23 <monochrom> As for probability, different users have different distributions of inputs.
01:52:35 <monochrom> Let e be the machine epsilon. Then (e/2 + e/2) + 1 = e + 1, but e/2 + (e/2 + 1) = e/2 + 1 = 1
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02:56:59 <Inst_> wait, question about Haddock
02:57:11 <Inst_> does Haddock support putting haddock comments on the same line as the type declaration?
02:57:40 <Axman6> type Foo = Bar -- ^ Something?
02:57:48 <Inst_> erm, type annotation
02:58:14 <Axman6> fo :: Int -> Bool -- ^ thing?
02:58:17 <Inst_> myFun :: a -> b {- type annotations can literally be thought of as glorified comments that the type checker will honor -}
02:58:35 <Inst_> myFun :: a -> b {-| type annotation can literally be thought of as glorified comments that the type checker will honor -}
02:59:04 <Inst_> also helps with the old Haskell disease of "we really believe that types are sufficient documentatino!"
02:59:16 <Inst_> now they literally are, because we stuffed the documentation into the type signature
02:59:49 <Axman6> ... why bother answering if you won't read it?
03:01:26 <Axman6> I think even this works: foo :: Int {- ^ an int -} -> Bar {- ^ some result -}, but I haven't tried
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03:03:06 <Inst_> ummm, because -- doesn't generate haddock comments, right?
03:03:33 <Inst_> oh, -- ^, bleh, should look up Haddock on my own
03:04:56 <Inst_> ah, thanks Axman6, I understand what you mean, just never saw -- ^ before
03:07:19 <Inst_> but do we support {-^?
03:09:08 <probie> Inst_: why not `myFun :: typeAnnotationsCanLiterallyBeThoughtOfAs -> glorifiedCommentsThatTheTypeCheckerWillHonor` :p
03:09:40 <Inst_> probie_ we don't make expressive use of type variables enough :)
03:10:10 <Inst_> like, I wish we had standardized on Monad monad => monad a -> (a -> monad b) -> monad b
03:11:59 <geekosaur> Inst_, `{- ^` should work, `{-^` will probably be a lexical error (likewise `--^` is an operator, not a comment with Haddock markup)
03:13:31 <probie> That in particular I dislike, because it falls apart when you have two monads :p
03:13:42 <Inst_> monadA monadB
03:13:44 <Inst_> what's the problem?
03:14:15 <geekosaur> or ghc-style, monad monad0 monad1 …
03:14:18 <Inst_> and I'd love to see some kind of function m a -> n a -> o a
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03:18:54 <probie> Inst_: `weirdLiftM2 :: (Monad m, Monad n, Monad o, LiftsInto m o, LiftsInto n o) => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> n b -> o c; weirdLiftM2 f x y = liftM2 f (lift x) (lift y)` with a class like `class LiftsInto m n where lift :: m a -> n a`
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03:20:22 <geekosaur> perhaps sadly, Haskell types are mathy types and like their single character variables
03:20:50 <monochrom> > {-^ turns out to be not an error. but I don't know whether haddock honours it -} ()
03:20:51 <lambdabot> ()
03:21:03 <geekosaur> (because `mn` is `m × n`)
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04:11:49 <hololeap> % :t \f mx -> maybe empty f
04:11:50 <yahb2> \f mx -> maybe empty f ; :: Alternative f => (a1 -> f a2) -> p -> Maybe a1 -> f a2
04:12:08 <hololeap> % :t \f -> maybe empty f
04:12:08 <yahb2> \f -> maybe empty f ; :: Alternative f => (a1 -> f a2) -> Maybe a1 -> f a2
04:12:17 <hololeap> is there a name for this?
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04:14:52 <hololeap> looks like there's something in relude, but not in any common libs
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04:27:33 <EvanR> monochrom, i knew someone would dependency inject the distribution of doubles into the question
04:27:45 <EvanR> let it be so injected
04:30:10 <EvanR> as demonstrated by weirdLiftM2 if we used descriptive variable names our type signatures might be even worse than scala
04:34:16 <monochrom> Monad theMonadWhoMustNotBeName => theBoyWhoLived -> theMonadWhoMustNotBeName theBoyWhoLived
04:34:31 <monochrom> err, s/Name/Named/ !
04:35:21 <monochrom> Conclusion: If we used descriptive names, we would have "variable not in scope" errors left right and centre.
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04:37:12 <monochrom> variable `theBoyWhoLivedAndDefeatedTheDarkLord' not found. Do you mean: `theBoyWhoLivedAndDefaetedTheDarkLord'
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04:39:47 <monochrom> True story: When creating an assignment, I defined a C struct to have 48 bytes: A name field of 44 bytes, an unsigned field of 4 bytes.
04:40:26 <monochrom> So I was looking for a long name that's kind of meaningful and takes up 44 bytes.
04:41:38 <monochrom> I started with "The Boy Who Lived" and looked for adding more words, hmm let me just try adding " And Defeated the Dark Lord" and see how far it goes.
04:41:51 <monochrom> > "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord"
04:41:52 <lambdabot> "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord"
04:41:57 <monochrom> > length "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord"
04:41:58 <lambdabot> 44
04:42:13 <monochrom> It worked right away. :)
04:44:11 <EvanR> that reminds me of when my old boss, who still had a mainframe and SCO unix in the basement, asked how long the name field could be in the database
04:44:16 <EvanR> in characters
04:45:27 <EvanR> (type was string, not char(44))
04:46:06 <EvanR> your name is exactly as long as the space allocated for it? bold
04:46:26 <monochrom> Hrm would that be a SQL database?
04:47:09 <monochrom> Also I don't think I know about string in SQL, as opposed to char(44).
04:49:27 <EvanR> 'text' in postgres, actually
04:49:57 <monochrom> Ah.
04:50:08 <EvanR> they forsaw the coming cultural shift in jargon that haskell would bring forth
04:50:47 <monochrom> Naw I think it's shell scripting, tcl, and python.
04:51:46 <EvanR> python is using legacy jargon: string
04:52:04 <monochrom> Oh oops, right, text, not string.
04:56:53 <EvanR> martin erwig inductive graph algorithms algorithms paper posits this data type data Graph a b = Empty | Context a b :& Graph a b. Preempting anyone who would say this is just a dang list, says not so fast. Graphs are not freely generated by Empty and :&
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04:58:43 <EvanR> mildly perplexing argument
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05:12:22 <monochrom> I am more fond of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/algebraic-graphs . The paper is at https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3122955.3122956 (don't worry, not walled)
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05:16:48 <EvanR> oh hell yeah, free papers
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05:29:52 <mauke> free-range papers
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05:57:39 <EvanR> figure 9 of algebraic graphs paper was worth the 11 pages of algebra and borderline category theory
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06:23:17 <monochrom> :)
06:27:41 <tomsmeding> monochrom: is paywalled here, though I can access it anyway through uni :p
06:27:54 <tomsmeding> is the paywall region-dependent? Surely not?
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07:13:45 <hololeap> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString-Char8.html
07:13:57 <hololeap> isEndOfLine :: Word8 -> Bool
07:14:11 <hololeap> how am I supposed to use this? there's nothing that takes a (Word8 -> Bool)
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07:36:16 <tomsmeding> hololeap: with `char8` supposedly :p
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07:39:50 <hololeap> char8 :: Char -> Parser Word8
07:39:54 <hololeap> I don't follow
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07:44:37 <mauke> hololeap: makes more sense with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString.html#v:satisfy
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07:46:56 <hololeap> mauke: the problem there is that Parser from that module doesn't line up with Parser in the Char8 module
07:47:18 <hololeap> or at least the compiler yelled at me when I tried that
07:47:41 <mauke> what does "line up" mean?
07:48:01 <mauke> also, what are you trying to do?
07:48:42 <hololeap> hm, never mind. it must have been a fluke since they both use the same ByteString
07:48:54 <hololeap> I'm trying to match a non-empty line
07:50:11 <hololeap> I ended up making: notEOL c = not $ c == '\r' || c == '\n'
07:50:44 <hololeap> but I'll try satisfy from the other module again
07:51:18 <hololeap> ok, it worked :p
07:51:28 <mauke> many1 (satisfy (notInClass "\n\r")) ?
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07:53:47 <hololeap> this uses more efficient combinators and seems to work: http://sprunge.us/6P7m0L
07:54:19 <hololeap> eh, I'll keep working on it
07:54:58 <tomsmeding> hololeap: guard exists
07:55:16 <tomsmeding> Control.Monad.Guard (not . isEndOfLine) char8
07:55:22 <tomsmeding> er, Control.Monad.guard
07:55:30 <tomsmeding> surely that's the idea
07:57:44 <hololeap> back in good old snoyberg land
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11:36:05 <Inst> also, not that this is particularly interesting, but at least on VSC + HLS, Haddock isn't respecting -- ^, -- |, or {- foo on the same line as the type annotation.
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12:05:55 <ski> `a ^ b ^ c' is `a ^ (b ^ c)' because you can already express `(a ^ b) ^ c' as `a ^ (b * c)'
12:06:17 <ski> `a / b / c' (and mutatis mutandis for `a - b - c') is `(a / b) / c', because you usually want the `a / (b * c)' interpretation, who would want to say `a / (b / c)' (being `(a * c) / b') ?
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14:39:41 <hololeap> anyone know of combinators for conduit that work similarly to Bifunctor? for instance, splitting the x and y of `ConduitT (x,y) o m a` to their own conduits and then recombining them at the end?
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14:48:36 <hololeap> this is actually looking more like Arrow than Bifunctor
14:49:21 <c_wraith> that looks like the sort of thing that could use unbounded memory
14:49:29 <c_wraith> Which is probably why they don't have it.
14:51:38 <hololeap> ok, I'll make do
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14:54:53 <hololeap> I wonder if streamly has an interface for this
14:55:04 <hololeap> I've never used it
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16:33:08 <EvanR> newtype GraphMonad a = M { bind :: forall g . Graph g => (a -> g) -> g }
16:33:54 <EvanR> this algebraic graphs paper is packed with interesting constructions, which don't take up much code
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16:53:21 <ncf> is there a quick way to see all the versions of the core libraries for a given GHC version?
16:54:15 <ncf> i guess it's in the documentation
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17:09:14 <monochrom> EvanR: Glad you like it. :)
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17:10:32 <monochrom> That is also a very interesting type. (I have only skimmed the paper, didn't notice that one.)
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17:12:02 <monochrom> Normally if someone wrote "T a = forall g. (a -> g) -> g" it would be the same as "T a = a" and it would be the identity monad. But this time, the constraint "Graph g" is standing in the way. That's going to be different.
17:13:08 <monochrom> Ahhh just unpack the dictionary of Graph. forall g. (Graph methods for g) -> (a -> g) -> g
17:13:25 <dolio> Yeah, it's essentially the free Graph monad.
17:14:04 <monochrom> Nice.
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17:16:34 <dolio> By quantifying over g with the constraint Graph g, you are quantifying over 'graph algebras'. The occurrences of g can be understood as being Ug implicitly, for the 'underlying set' of the algebra.
17:17:55 <dolio> Then that is the formula for Ran_U U, which is equivalent to the monad of the F ⊣ U adjunction, I think.
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17:18:36 <dolio> Which is the free algebra monad.
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17:23:25 <monochrom> Ah similar to "forall r. (F r -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r" meaning "data M a = Wrap (F (M a)) | Pure a" the free monad for functor F.
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17:23:58 <ncf> why does it say the paper is freely available? i get a "get access" link asking me to log in
17:24:30 <EvanR> I found preprints on github, linked from the hackage package
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17:24:47 <monochrom> Please ignore the "Get Access" button.
17:25:04 <monochrom> Somewhere on the right edge there should be a "PDF" button. Please use that.
17:25:49 <ncf> i do not see such a thing
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17:26:33 <ncf> https://f.monade.li/e7Si2J.png
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17:27:47 <monochrom> OK, would this work? https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3156695.3122956?casa_token=yVZZocg3JV0AAAAA:r3iLQ7dSL5S0pxwXAy6iPyV59oh8lm_r6hHHVd9FixiYlfhL0uozCImP708FcfJ6oQBaQqM35HUFhbs
17:28:13 <EvanR> use DCC to transfer the file directly to ncf xD
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17:28:30 <ncf> nope i get a slightly different page with just as many pdf links
17:28:39 <ncf> EvanR: i mean i'm reading the preprint, it's fine
17:28:44 <monochrom> Ahhhhh I see. Use this: https://dl.acm.org/authorize?N46678
17:29:02 <ncf> nope that's the link i clicked to begin with
17:29:24 <int-e> https://github.com/snowleopard/alga-paper has a preprint
17:29:26 <monochrom> Well OK then I don't know. The author certainly thought that it would do.
17:31:33 <monochrom> Maybe it is regional... I'm in Canada.
17:33:16 <int-e> No luck from here either, FWIW...
17:33:25 <int-e> (EU)
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17:37:13 <mauke> can confirm, no pdf link
17:37:22 <mauke> they want me to pay $15, but their shop doesn't work
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17:38:48 <EvanR> locked out
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18:19:10 <somerandomnick[m> DOI?
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18:20:17 <monochrom> DOI.
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18:22:51 <bratwurst> im finally beginning to understand dependent types
18:23:12 <bratwurst> i finally read an article that showed dep-types can be done very simply
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18:23:48 <bratwurst> so i started to think about how all the stuff i have done could be done with just that and now it's starting to click
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18:28:01 <bratwurst> so of course im going to implement a dep-typed language that generates correct elisp
18:28:25 <bratwurst> and i'm going to implement ide stuff for haskell in that language
18:28:56 <bratwurst> yes more big talk from the sausage. just wanted to talk about it with someone
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18:34:57 <EvanR> dependent types, the world is not ready for such problems
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18:45:33 <int-e> psst, try @quote dependable ;-)
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18:46:27 <monochrom> @quote dependable
18:46:27 <lambdabot> int-e says: I want dependable types.
18:46:31 <monochrom> :)
18:47:14 <EvanR> the meta level of my trying that in secret first but int-e sees everything done on lambdabot in secret
18:47:24 <EvanR> as well as already knowing the content
18:48:34 <int-e> EvanR: I actually don't though I can see that you'll have to take my word for it
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18:49:04 <EvanR> int-e is the priest, use lambdabot to confess your use of imperative and OOP methodology
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18:49:29 <int-e> @quote oop
18:49:30 <lambdabot> IceDane says: [on escaping an imperative mindset]: <kmc> i recommend heavy drinking <IceDane> I've tried that. I just have fun and wake up and feel like shit the day after. but still think in loops.
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18:50:23 <int-e> @quote \boop\b
18:50:24 <lambdabot> oleg says: It is known, albeit not so well, that following the OOP letter and practice may lead to insidious errors.
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18:53:39 <int-e> FWIW, I truly believe that dependent types make the programmer work too hard for most programming tasks.
18:54:00 <int-e> Unless you plan on proving your code correct anyway, I guess.
18:54:24 <EvanR> a circle is an ellipse is a quadruped. A reflexive graph is a graph is a hypergraph. We're ready for the IT section of barnes and noble
18:55:31 <EvanR> from the beginning Idris was design to let you go ahead with nonsense and prove stuff later*
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18:55:47 <EvanR> division by zero even crashes the program
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18:57:54 <EvanR> a wishful thinking thought is that libraries exist and can be used that have proofs already
18:58:05 <EvanR> but I guess that's chicken and egg
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19:02:47 <int-e> Which properties do you track and check? You probably get a dozen different list types that are generally useful because of that. (Say, track length, track distinctness of items, track sortedness, track sum according to some weight function...)
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19:03:51 <EvanR> we already do that right
19:04:32 <EvanR> Vector, Set, Set or Map, (Map, sum), all with different types
19:04:35 <int-e> True, but there are limits to that in current (mostly non-dependent) Haskell.
19:04:57 <EvanR> I mean without help from the type system
19:05:05 <int-e> EvanR: What I had in mind would all be isomorphic in [a] at the value level.
19:05:29 <int-e> Just tracking different invariants/measurements on the list.
19:05:52 <EvanR> according to conal, list is terrible and we should be using the right structures for the job xD (in a talk where he said this, he then pulls out something with a dependent type)
19:06:01 <int-e> Because with dependent types you *can* do that so people will want to do that.
19:06:31 <int-e> The *same* thing can be done for Vector.
19:06:49 <EvanR> if something can be treated as a list while remembering something important, that can be part of the API
19:07:03 <EvanR> otherwise, anything can be listified by forgetting everything
19:08:02 <EvanR> even in haskell you're discouraged from using list except as a loop
19:08:10 <int-e> (Of course even Haskell managed to make a small mess out of [a] in the form of NonEmpty)
19:08:15 <int-e> Or Nonempty?
19:08:36 <EvanR> I actually like NonEmpty
19:08:38 <[exa]> NoActuallyEmpty
19:10:01 <int-e> NonEmpty could be nice if Haskell had subtypes.
19:10:39 <EvanR> writing realToFrac everywhere is fine, but not toList ? xD
19:11:10 <int-e> I don't write realToFrac everywhere.
19:11:26 <EvanR> fromIntegral
19:11:39 <EvanR> me neither I put let fi = fromIntegral in
19:11:49 <int-e> (It's mostly fromIntegral and I try to keep that to a minimum too and it's at least mildly annoying.)
19:12:16 <int-e> (So the last thing I want is more of that.)
19:12:57 <int-e> But maybe I just haven't been bitten often enough by working with head and tail on lists that turned out to be empty.
19:14:20 <EvanR> it does add noise to the code, meanwhile this proof here that the list is not empty exists
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21:34:16 <L29Ah> is there a getopt solution similar to optparse-generic, but supporting common options for a command and subcommands with subcommand-specific options at the same time?
21:34:50 <L29Ah> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-generic-1.5.0/docs/Options-Generic.html tells it only does subcommand-specific options, and that it can't work with nested records
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21:50:37 <sm> I do that with cmdargs at least
21:50:54 <sm> presumably one of the optparse flavours can do it
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22:37:51 <DigitalKiwi> https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative does this do what you want
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