Logs on 2023-07-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:24:31 | <EvanR> | I wonder what the actual probability is for + to be associative or not on Double |
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| 00:51:56 | <geekosaur> | isn't there a variant mathematics that accurately characterizes IEEE754? |
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| 01:28:14 | <EvanR> | ViewPatterns, the wiki has tantalizing new syntax which denoise the use of Maybe views. Instead of view -> Just x, view => x. But it doesn't seem to exist yet? |
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| 01:38:11 | <dolio> | a^(b^c) is handy for writing exponential towers, I guess. Maybe people figure that's the main reason to use repeated exponential. |
| 01:39:39 | <dolio> | Most languages don't have n-ary arithmetic operations, so you have to parse them into some binary tree. |
| 01:46:25 | <monochrom> | IEEE754 defines floating point plus to be exact plus then rounding. This still induces non-associativity in edge cases. |
| 01:47:23 | <monochrom> | As for probability, different users have different distributions of inputs. |
| 01:52:35 | <monochrom> | Let e be the machine epsilon. Then (e/2 + e/2) + 1 = e + 1, but e/2 + (e/2 + 1) = e/2 + 1 = 1 |
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| 02:56:59 | <Inst_> | wait, question about Haddock |
| 02:57:11 | <Inst_> | does Haddock support putting haddock comments on the same line as the type declaration? |
| 02:57:40 | <Axman6> | type Foo = Bar -- ^ Something? |
| 02:57:48 | <Inst_> | erm, type annotation |
| 02:58:14 | <Axman6> | fo :: Int -> Bool -- ^ thing? |
| 02:58:17 | <Inst_> | myFun :: a -> b {- type annotations can literally be thought of as glorified comments that the type checker will honor -} |
| 02:58:35 | <Inst_> | myFun :: a -> b {-| type annotation can literally be thought of as glorified comments that the type checker will honor -} |
| 02:59:04 | <Inst_> | also helps with the old Haskell disease of "we really believe that types are sufficient documentatino!" |
| 02:59:16 | <Inst_> | now they literally are, because we stuffed the documentation into the type signature |
| 02:59:49 | <Axman6> | ... why bother answering if you won't read it? |
| 03:01:26 | <Axman6> | I think even this works: foo :: Int {- ^ an int -} -> Bar {- ^ some result -}, but I haven't tried |
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| 03:03:06 | <Inst_> | ummm, because -- doesn't generate haddock comments, right? |
| 03:03:33 | <Inst_> | oh, -- ^, bleh, should look up Haddock on my own |
| 03:04:56 | <Inst_> | ah, thanks Axman6, I understand what you mean, just never saw -- ^ before |
| 03:07:19 | <Inst_> | but do we support {-^? |
| 03:09:08 | <probie> | Inst_: why not `myFun :: typeAnnotationsCanLiterallyBeThoughtOfAs -> glorifiedCommentsThatTheTypeCheckerWillHonor` :p |
| 03:09:40 | <Inst_> | probie_ we don't make expressive use of type variables enough :) |
| 03:10:10 | <Inst_> | like, I wish we had standardized on Monad monad => monad a -> (a -> monad b) -> monad b |
| 03:11:59 | <geekosaur> | Inst_, `{- ^` should work, `{-^` will probably be a lexical error (likewise `--^` is an operator, not a comment with Haddock markup) |
| 03:13:31 | <probie> | That in particular I dislike, because it falls apart when you have two monads :p |
| 03:13:42 | <Inst_> | monadA monadB |
| 03:13:44 | <Inst_> | what's the problem? |
| 03:14:15 | <geekosaur> | or ghc-style, monad monad0 monad1 … |
| 03:14:18 | <Inst_> | and I'd love to see some kind of function m a -> n a -> o a |
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| 03:18:54 | <probie> | Inst_: `weirdLiftM2 :: (Monad m, Monad n, Monad o, LiftsInto m o, LiftsInto n o) => (a -> b -> c) -> m a -> n b -> o c; weirdLiftM2 f x y = liftM2 f (lift x) (lift y)` with a class like `class LiftsInto m n where lift :: m a -> n a` |
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| 03:20:22 | <geekosaur> | perhaps sadly, Haskell types are mathy types and like their single character variables |
| 03:20:50 | <monochrom> | > {-^ turns out to be not an error. but I don't know whether haddock honours it -} () |
| 03:20:51 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 03:21:03 | <geekosaur> | (because `mn` is `m × n`) |
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| 04:11:49 | <hololeap> | % :t \f mx -> maybe empty f |
| 04:11:50 | <yahb2> | \f mx -> maybe empty f ; :: Alternative f => (a1 -> f a2) -> p -> Maybe a1 -> f a2 |
| 04:12:08 | <hololeap> | % :t \f -> maybe empty f |
| 04:12:08 | <yahb2> | \f -> maybe empty f ; :: Alternative f => (a1 -> f a2) -> Maybe a1 -> f a2 |
| 04:12:17 | <hololeap> | is there a name for this? |
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| 04:14:52 | <hololeap> | looks like there's something in relude, but not in any common libs |
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| 04:27:33 | <EvanR> | monochrom, i knew someone would dependency inject the distribution of doubles into the question |
| 04:27:45 | <EvanR> | let it be so injected |
| 04:30:10 | <EvanR> | as demonstrated by weirdLiftM2 if we used descriptive variable names our type signatures might be even worse than scala |
| 04:34:16 | <monochrom> | Monad theMonadWhoMustNotBeName => theBoyWhoLived -> theMonadWhoMustNotBeName theBoyWhoLived |
| 04:34:31 | <monochrom> | err, s/Name/Named/ ! |
| 04:35:21 | <monochrom> | Conclusion: If we used descriptive names, we would have "variable not in scope" errors left right and centre. |
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| 04:37:12 | <monochrom> | variable `theBoyWhoLivedAndDefeatedTheDarkLord' not found. Do you mean: `theBoyWhoLivedAndDefaetedTheDarkLord' |
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| 04:39:47 | <monochrom> | True story: When creating an assignment, I defined a C struct to have 48 bytes: A name field of 44 bytes, an unsigned field of 4 bytes. |
| 04:40:26 | <monochrom> | So I was looking for a long name that's kind of meaningful and takes up 44 bytes. |
| 04:41:38 | <monochrom> | I started with "The Boy Who Lived" and looked for adding more words, hmm let me just try adding " And Defeated the Dark Lord" and see how far it goes. |
| 04:41:51 | <monochrom> | > "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord" |
| 04:41:52 | <lambdabot> | "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord" |
| 04:41:57 | <monochrom> | > length "The Boy Who Lived And Defeated The Dark Lord" |
| 04:41:58 | <lambdabot> | 44 |
| 04:42:13 | <monochrom> | It worked right away. :) |
| 04:44:11 | <EvanR> | that reminds me of when my old boss, who still had a mainframe and SCO unix in the basement, asked how long the name field could be in the database |
| 04:44:16 | <EvanR> | in characters |
| 04:45:27 | <EvanR> | (type was string, not char(44)) |
| 04:46:06 | <EvanR> | your name is exactly as long as the space allocated for it? bold |
| 04:46:26 | <monochrom> | Hrm would that be a SQL database? |
| 04:47:09 | <monochrom> | Also I don't think I know about string in SQL, as opposed to char(44). |
| 04:49:27 | <EvanR> | 'text' in postgres, actually |
| 04:49:57 | <monochrom> | Ah. |
| 04:50:08 | <EvanR> | they forsaw the coming cultural shift in jargon that haskell would bring forth |
| 04:50:47 | <monochrom> | Naw I think it's shell scripting, tcl, and python. |
| 04:51:46 | <EvanR> | python is using legacy jargon: string |
| 04:52:04 | <monochrom> | Oh oops, right, text, not string. |
| 04:56:53 | <EvanR> | martin erwig inductive graph algorithms algorithms paper posits this data type data Graph a b = Empty | Context a b :& Graph a b. Preempting anyone who would say this is just a dang list, says not so fast. Graphs are not freely generated by Empty and :& |
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| 04:58:43 | <EvanR> | mildly perplexing argument |
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| 05:12:22 | <monochrom> | I am more fond of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/algebraic-graphs . The paper is at https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3122955.3122956 (don't worry, not walled) |
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| 05:16:48 | <EvanR> | oh hell yeah, free papers |
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| 05:29:52 | <mauke> | free-range papers |
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| 05:57:39 | <EvanR> | figure 9 of algebraic graphs paper was worth the 11 pages of algebra and borderline category theory |
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| 06:23:17 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 06:27:41 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: is paywalled here, though I can access it anyway through uni :p |
| 06:27:54 | <tomsmeding> | is the paywall region-dependent? Surely not? |
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| 07:13:45 | <hololeap> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString-Char8.html |
| 07:13:57 | <hololeap> | isEndOfLine :: Word8 -> Bool |
| 07:14:11 | <hololeap> | how am I supposed to use this? there's nothing that takes a (Word8 -> Bool) |
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| 07:36:16 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: with `char8` supposedly :p |
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| 07:39:50 | <hololeap> | char8 :: Char -> Parser Word8 |
| 07:39:54 | <hololeap> | I don't follow |
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| 07:44:37 | <mauke> | hololeap: makes more sense with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/attoparsec-0.14.4/docs/Data-Attoparsec-ByteString.html#v:satisfy |
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| 07:46:56 | <hololeap> | mauke: the problem there is that Parser from that module doesn't line up with Parser in the Char8 module |
| 07:47:18 | <hololeap> | or at least the compiler yelled at me when I tried that |
| 07:47:41 | <mauke> | what does "line up" mean? |
| 07:48:01 | <mauke> | also, what are you trying to do? |
| 07:48:42 | <hololeap> | hm, never mind. it must have been a fluke since they both use the same ByteString |
| 07:48:54 | <hololeap> | I'm trying to match a non-empty line |
| 07:50:11 | <hololeap> | I ended up making: notEOL c = not $ c == '\r' || c == '\n' |
| 07:50:44 | <hololeap> | but I'll try satisfy from the other module again |
| 07:51:18 | <hololeap> | ok, it worked :p |
| 07:51:28 | <mauke> | many1 (satisfy (notInClass "\n\r")) ? |
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| 07:53:47 | <hololeap> | this uses more efficient combinators and seems to work: http://sprunge.us/6P7m0L |
| 07:54:19 | <hololeap> | eh, I'll keep working on it |
| 07:54:58 | <tomsmeding> | hololeap: guard exists |
| 07:55:16 | <tomsmeding> | Control.Monad.Guard (not . isEndOfLine) char8 |
| 07:55:22 | <tomsmeding> | er, Control.Monad.guard |
| 07:55:30 | <tomsmeding> | surely that's the idea |
| 07:57:44 | <hololeap> | back in good old snoyberg land |
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| 11:36:05 | <Inst> | also, not that this is particularly interesting, but at least on VSC + HLS, Haddock isn't respecting -- ^, -- |, or {- foo on the same line as the type annotation. |
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| 12:05:55 | <ski> | `a ^ b ^ c' is `a ^ (b ^ c)' because you can already express `(a ^ b) ^ c' as `a ^ (b * c)' |
| 12:06:17 | <ski> | `a / b / c' (and mutatis mutandis for `a - b - c') is `(a / b) / c', because you usually want the `a / (b * c)' interpretation, who would want to say `a / (b / c)' (being `(a * c) / b') ? |
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| 12:08:17 | <ski> | (btw, one reason to have `+' and `*' left-associative, assuming `-' and `*' is, is to allow mixing, like `a - b + c - d' and `a / b * c / d') |
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| 14:39:41 | <hololeap> | anyone know of combinators for conduit that work similarly to Bifunctor? for instance, splitting the x and y of `ConduitT (x,y) o m a` to their own conduits and then recombining them at the end? |
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| 14:48:36 | <hololeap> | this is actually looking more like Arrow than Bifunctor |
| 14:49:21 | <c_wraith> | that looks like the sort of thing that could use unbounded memory |
| 14:49:29 | <c_wraith> | Which is probably why they don't have it. |
| 14:51:38 | <hololeap> | ok, I'll make do |
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| 14:54:53 | <hololeap> | I wonder if streamly has an interface for this |
| 14:55:04 | <hololeap> | I've never used it |
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| 16:33:08 | <EvanR> | newtype GraphMonad a = M { bind :: forall g . Graph g => (a -> g) -> g } |
| 16:33:54 | <EvanR> | this algebraic graphs paper is packed with interesting constructions, which don't take up much code |
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| 16:53:21 | <ncf> | is there a quick way to see all the versions of the core libraries for a given GHC version? |
| 16:54:15 | <ncf> | i guess it's in the documentation |
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| 17:09:14 | <monochrom> | EvanR: Glad you like it. :) |
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| 17:10:32 | <monochrom> | That is also a very interesting type. (I have only skimmed the paper, didn't notice that one.) |
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| 17:12:02 | <monochrom> | Normally if someone wrote "T a = forall g. (a -> g) -> g" it would be the same as "T a = a" and it would be the identity monad. But this time, the constraint "Graph g" is standing in the way. That's going to be different. |
| 17:13:08 | <monochrom> | Ahhh just unpack the dictionary of Graph. forall g. (Graph methods for g) -> (a -> g) -> g |
| 17:13:25 | <dolio> | Yeah, it's essentially the free Graph monad. |
| 17:14:04 | <monochrom> | Nice. |
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| 17:16:34 | <dolio> | By quantifying over g with the constraint Graph g, you are quantifying over 'graph algebras'. The occurrences of g can be understood as being Ug implicitly, for the 'underlying set' of the algebra. |
| 17:17:55 | <dolio> | Then that is the formula for Ran_U U, which is equivalent to the monad of the F ⊣ U adjunction, I think. |
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| 17:18:36 | <dolio> | Which is the free algebra monad. |
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| 17:23:25 | <monochrom> | Ah similar to "forall r. (F r -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r" meaning "data M a = Wrap (F (M a)) | Pure a" the free monad for functor F. |
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| 17:23:58 | <ncf> | why does it say the paper is freely available? i get a "get access" link asking me to log in |
| 17:24:30 | <EvanR> | I found preprints on github, linked from the hackage package |
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| 17:24:47 | <monochrom> | Please ignore the "Get Access" button. |
| 17:25:04 | <monochrom> | Somewhere on the right edge there should be a "PDF" button. Please use that. |
| 17:25:49 | <ncf> | i do not see such a thing |
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| 17:26:33 | <ncf> | https://f.monade.li/e7Si2J.png |
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| 17:27:47 | <monochrom> | OK, would this work? https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3156695.3122956?casa_token=yVZZocg3JV0AAAAA:r3iLQ7dSL5S0pxwXAy6iPyV59oh8lm_r6hHHVd9FixiYlfhL0uozCImP708FcfJ6oQBaQqM35HUFhbs |
| 17:28:13 | <EvanR> | use DCC to transfer the file directly to ncf xD |
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| 17:28:30 | <ncf> | nope i get a slightly different page with just as many pdf links |
| 17:28:39 | <ncf> | EvanR: i mean i'm reading the preprint, it's fine |
| 17:28:44 | <monochrom> | Ahhhhh I see. Use this: https://dl.acm.org/authorize?N46678 |
| 17:29:02 | <ncf> | nope that's the link i clicked to begin with |
| 17:29:24 | <int-e> | https://github.com/snowleopard/alga-paper has a preprint |
| 17:29:26 | <monochrom> | Well OK then I don't know. The author certainly thought that it would do. |
| 17:31:33 | <monochrom> | Maybe it is regional... I'm in Canada. |
| 17:33:16 | <int-e> | No luck from here either, FWIW... |
| 17:33:25 | <int-e> | (EU) |
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| 17:37:13 | <mauke> | can confirm, no pdf link |
| 17:37:22 | <mauke> | they want me to pay $15, but their shop doesn't work |
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| 17:38:48 | <EvanR> | locked out |
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| 18:19:10 | <somerandomnick[m> | DOI? |
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| 18:20:17 | <monochrom> | DOI. |
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| 18:22:51 | <bratwurst> | im finally beginning to understand dependent types |
| 18:23:12 | <bratwurst> | i finally read an article that showed dep-types can be done very simply |
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| 18:23:48 | <bratwurst> | so i started to think about how all the stuff i have done could be done with just that and now it's starting to click |
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| 18:28:01 | <bratwurst> | so of course im going to implement a dep-typed language that generates correct elisp |
| 18:28:25 | <bratwurst> | and i'm going to implement ide stuff for haskell in that language |
| 18:28:56 | <bratwurst> | yes more big talk from the sausage. just wanted to talk about it with someone |
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| 18:34:57 | <EvanR> | dependent types, the world is not ready for such problems |
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| 18:45:33 | <int-e> | psst, try @quote dependable ;-) |
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| 18:46:27 | <monochrom> | @quote dependable |
| 18:46:27 | <lambdabot> | int-e says: I want dependable types. |
| 18:46:31 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 18:47:14 | <EvanR> | the meta level of my trying that in secret first but int-e sees everything done on lambdabot in secret |
| 18:47:24 | <EvanR> | as well as already knowing the content |
| 18:48:34 | <int-e> | EvanR: I actually don't though I can see that you'll have to take my word for it |
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| 18:49:04 | <EvanR> | int-e is the priest, use lambdabot to confess your use of imperative and OOP methodology |
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| 18:49:29 | <int-e> | @quote oop |
| 18:49:30 | <lambdabot> | IceDane says: [on escaping an imperative mindset]: <kmc> i recommend heavy drinking <IceDane> I've tried that. I just have fun and wake up and feel like shit the day after. but still think in loops. |
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| 18:50:23 | <int-e> | @quote \boop\b |
| 18:50:24 | <lambdabot> | oleg says: It is known, albeit not so well, that following the OOP letter and practice may lead to insidious errors. |
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| 18:53:39 | <int-e> | FWIW, I truly believe that dependent types make the programmer work too hard for most programming tasks. |
| 18:54:00 | <int-e> | Unless you plan on proving your code correct anyway, I guess. |
| 18:54:24 | <EvanR> | a circle is an ellipse is a quadruped. A reflexive graph is a graph is a hypergraph. We're ready for the IT section of barnes and noble |
| 18:55:31 | <EvanR> | from the beginning Idris was design to let you go ahead with nonsense and prove stuff later* |
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| 18:55:47 | <EvanR> | division by zero even crashes the program |
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| 18:57:54 | <EvanR> | a wishful thinking thought is that libraries exist and can be used that have proofs already |
| 18:58:05 | <EvanR> | but I guess that's chicken and egg |
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| 19:02:47 | <int-e> | Which properties do you track and check? You probably get a dozen different list types that are generally useful because of that. (Say, track length, track distinctness of items, track sortedness, track sum according to some weight function...) |
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| 19:03:51 | <EvanR> | we already do that right |
| 19:04:32 | <EvanR> | Vector, Set, Set or Map, (Map, sum), all with different types |
| 19:04:35 | <int-e> | True, but there are limits to that in current (mostly non-dependent) Haskell. |
| 19:04:57 | <EvanR> | I mean without help from the type system |
| 19:05:05 | <int-e> | EvanR: What I had in mind would all be isomorphic in [a] at the value level. |
| 19:05:29 | <int-e> | Just tracking different invariants/measurements on the list. |
| 19:05:52 | <EvanR> | according to conal, list is terrible and we should be using the right structures for the job xD (in a talk where he said this, he then pulls out something with a dependent type) |
| 19:06:01 | <int-e> | Because with dependent types you *can* do that so people will want to do that. |
| 19:06:31 | <int-e> | The *same* thing can be done for Vector. |
| 19:06:49 | <EvanR> | if something can be treated as a list while remembering something important, that can be part of the API |
| 19:07:03 | <EvanR> | otherwise, anything can be listified by forgetting everything |
| 19:08:02 | <EvanR> | even in haskell you're discouraged from using list except as a loop |
| 19:08:10 | <int-e> | (Of course even Haskell managed to make a small mess out of [a] in the form of NonEmpty) |
| 19:08:15 | <int-e> | Or Nonempty? |
| 19:08:36 | <EvanR> | I actually like NonEmpty |
| 19:08:38 | <[exa]> | NoActuallyEmpty |
| 19:10:01 | <int-e> | NonEmpty could be nice if Haskell had subtypes. |
| 19:10:39 | <EvanR> | writing realToFrac everywhere is fine, but not toList ? xD |
| 19:11:10 | <int-e> | I don't write realToFrac everywhere. |
| 19:11:26 | <EvanR> | fromIntegral |
| 19:11:39 | <EvanR> | me neither I put let fi = fromIntegral in |
| 19:11:49 | <int-e> | (It's mostly fromIntegral and I try to keep that to a minimum too and it's at least mildly annoying.) |
| 19:12:16 | <int-e> | (So the last thing I want is more of that.) |
| 19:12:57 | <int-e> | But maybe I just haven't been bitten often enough by working with head and tail on lists that turned out to be empty. |
| 19:14:20 | <EvanR> | it does add noise to the code, meanwhile this proof here that the list is not empty exists |
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| 21:34:16 | <L29Ah> | is there a getopt solution similar to optparse-generic, but supporting common options for a command and subcommands with subcommand-specific options at the same time? |
| 21:34:50 | <L29Ah> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-generic-1.5.0/docs/Options-Generic.html tells it only does subcommand-specific options, and that it can't work with nested records |
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| 21:50:37 | <sm> | I do that with cmdargs at least |
| 21:50:54 | <sm> | presumably one of the optparse flavours can do it |
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| 22:37:51 | <DigitalKiwi> | https://github.com/pcapriotti/optparse-applicative does this do what you want |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-07-08.