Logs on 2023-07-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 18:51:43 | <energizer> | is there a name for the kind of scans that return n+1 elements? |
| 18:52:27 | <monochrom> | scanl and scanr return n+1 elements. So you can use either name. |
| 18:52:35 | <monochrom> | > scanl (+) 0 [1,2,3] |
| 18:52:37 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,3,6] |
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| 18:52:57 | <monochrom> | I wonder if scanl1 returns n+1 elements... |
| 18:53:03 | <monochrom> | > scanl1 (+) [1,2,3] |
| 18:53:04 | <lambdabot> | [1,3,6] |
| 18:53:17 | <dolio> | No, because it runs scanl on (n-1) elements. :) |
| 18:53:27 | <monochrom> | Ugh hahahah |
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| 18:54:43 | <EvanR> | two off by 1 errors make a right |
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| 18:58:30 | <energizer> | there's no name that refers to both of them? |
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| 18:58:41 | <energizer> | like "prescan" or something |
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| 20:18:45 | <dsal> | paramorphism? |
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| 20:31:00 | <bratwurst> | hi, it was suggested i post here. i was just curious what people thought about how i reduced my gui |
| 20:31:06 | <bratwurst> | :: c |
| 20:31:06 | <bratwurst> | <bratwurst> handleEvent :: a -> c -> (b, c) |
| 20:31:06 | <bratwurst> | <bratwurst> what do you think? |
| 20:31:14 | <bratwurst> | er, whoops, one sec |
| 20:31:25 | <bratwurst> | class Render c => Widget a b c where |
| 20:31:25 | <bratwurst> | box :: Box |
| 20:31:25 | <bratwurst> | thing :: c |
| 20:31:25 | <bratwurst> | handleEvent :: a -> c -> (b, c) |
| 20:31:47 | <bratwurst> | an example use would be 'Widget Key AppEvent WidgetInternalState' |
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| 20:32:18 | <bratwurst> | the idea being a widget is a map from an <a> to a <b>, while holding some state of type c |
| 20:32:53 | <EvanR> | a map from a to b while "holding" state c sounds vaguely like an arrow based thing |
| 20:33:25 | <bratwurst> | huh, those have been on my reading list for awhile. so i reinvented them? |
| 20:33:52 | <EvanR> | not exactly, and they might not get what you want either |
| 20:33:53 | <bratwurst> | so maybe i should catch up on my arrows reading |
| 20:34:14 | <EvanR> | one possible avenue to go is to hide the state c from the external API |
| 20:34:41 | <EvanR> | if the point is to render it, you can export an Image from all widget regardless of the state type |
| 20:35:19 | <bratwurst> | yes, the idea is to generate the image based on the internal state. eg, a tree widget remembering what's expanded and how much it is scrolled |
| 20:35:38 | <bratwurst> | stuff having to do with the app is not managed by the gui |
| 20:35:49 | <bratwurst> | instead the gui is seen as an event transformer |
| 20:36:07 | <EvanR> | event transformer sounds like stream transducers |
| 20:36:11 | <bratwurst> | it takes gui events and generates app events, which are handled by separate logic |
| 20:36:23 | <EvanR> | which are simpler than arrows by far |
| 20:36:58 | <bratwurst> | i have only vaguely heard of stream transducers. my reading list just got bigger |
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| 20:37:34 | <monochrom> | Oh! Then https://hackage.haskell.org/package/machines >:) |
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| 20:44:06 | <bratwurst> | that is some fun reading. thank you monochrom |
| 20:44:29 | <bratwurst> | you guys know you're distracting me right? i'm supposed to finish my gui but instead im reading |
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| 20:45:46 | <monochrom> | I am against instant gratification. |
| 20:46:10 | <monochrom> | When ESR talked about the cathedral and the bazaar, I sided with cathedral. |
| 20:46:11 | <EvanR> | heinrich apfulmus's blog has some good nuggets of wisdom on this |
| 20:46:25 | <EvanR> | GUI stuff |
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| 20:46:48 | <EvanR> | when anyone has put a lot of work into the exact thing you're doing, read their whole blog |
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| 20:47:09 | <mauke> | I hope it's actually apfelmus |
| 20:47:12 | <mauke> | (applesauce) |
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| 20:48:06 | <EvanR> | oops yeah, Apfelmus |
| 20:48:14 | <EvanR> | I also introduce a single char error in his name |
| 20:48:20 | <EvanR> | always* |
| 20:49:29 | <monochrom> | instance Applicative Purée where ... -- apful mus |
| 20:50:18 | <monochrom> | (I also believe in dad jokes. :) ) |
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| 20:58:01 | <EvanR> | bratwurst, https://apfelmus.nfshost.com/blog/2012/03/29-frp-three-principles-bidirectional-gui.html |
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| 21:05:43 | <bratwurst> | EvanR: yes, bidirectional stuff. i've had certain libraries on my list for awhile now. if only i could just read everything at once |
| 21:05:57 | <bratwurst> | he makes good points |
| 21:06:23 | <Guest72> | Is "head ((((([] ++ [1]) ++ [2]) ++ [3]) ++ [4]) ++ [5])" O(n) or O(n*n)? I think is O(n*n) because parens are on left and every ++ must again visit same numbers as last ++. But authors says complexity of head is O(n). |
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| 21:07:45 | <EvanR> | you ++ N times and after that you can access the first element |
| 21:07:46 | <geekosaur> | complexity of head doesn't include complexity of building its parameter |
| 21:08:17 | <monochrom> | If you print the whole list or ask for the final element, that will be quadratic. |
| 21:08:57 | <geekosaur> | but I think ++ is lazy so you don't actually pay for the whole thing? |
| 21:08:57 | <monochrom> | But the first list node takes only linear time to finalize. |
| 21:09:16 | <EvanR> | @src (++) |
| 21:09:16 | <lambdabot> | [] ++ ys = ys |
| 21:09:16 | <lambdabot> | (x:xs) ++ ys = x : (xs ++ ys) |
| 21:09:16 | <lambdabot> | -- OR |
| 21:09:16 | <lambdabot> | xs ++ ys = foldr (:) ys xs |
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| 21:09:52 | <monochrom> | I'm actually looking for a lazy evaluation exam question. This looks like suitable! |
| 21:10:42 | <geekosaur> | lazy eval version of a math question with a hidden *0 ? |
| 21:11:24 | <monochrom> | It's a Haskell exam question, not a math exam question. |
| 21:11:30 | <geekosaur> | exactly |
| 21:11:39 | <EvanR> | > last (undefined ++ [1]) |
| 21:11:41 | <lambdabot> | *Exception: Prelude.undefined |
| 21:11:47 | <EvanR> | not lazy enough |
| 21:12:07 | <geekosaur> | you put it on the left, it's the right we care about |
| 21:12:16 | <geekosaur> | can't be lazy in both |
| 21:12:18 | <EvanR> | not in the head question |
| 21:12:38 | <EvanR> | yeah lazy in the 2nd argument |
| 21:13:01 | <probie> | > head ((((([] ++ [1]) ++ undefined) ++ undefined) ++ undefined) ++ undefined) |
| 21:13:02 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 21:13:07 | <EvanR> | > head ([0] ++ undefined) |
| 21:13:08 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 21:13:29 | <Guest72> | Haskell not evaluating every ++ but only evaluating first step of every ++? Will I get list where head is known but unevaluated ++ inside? |
| 21:13:54 | <EvanR> | in your question it has to evaluate every ++, but that doesn't mean it builds the entire list each time |
| 21:14:24 | <geekosaur> | uh? that's the same fixity as not having the parens, isn't it? |
| 21:14:24 | <EvanR> | like the last two examples show |
| 21:14:41 | <monochrom> | (++) is right-associative |
| 21:14:46 | <geekosaur> | oh |
| 21:16:18 | <monochrom> | Beautifully (!) (++) is denotationally associative, even in the presence of (++). So you will have to use benchmarking to tell the difference in performance. |
| 21:16:26 | <probie> | ([a,b] ++ [c,d]) ++ [e,f] => (a:([b] ++ [c,d])) ++ [e,f] => a:(([b] ++ [c,d]) ++ [e,f] |
| 21:16:34 | <monochrom> | err, even in the presence of bottom. |
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| 21:19:07 | <Guest72> | I will evaluate on paper. If linear this should take 5 steps. Maybe then I understand. |
| 21:19:46 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 21:19:59 | <monochrom> | "shut up and calculate" |
| 21:21:04 | <EvanR> | unless evaluation would require selector thunks |
| 21:21:13 | <EvanR> | strikethrough |
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| 21:34:53 | <Guest72> | Is correct? |
| 21:34:55 | <Guest72> | head (((([] ++ [1]) ++ [2]) ++ [3]) ++ [4]) |
| 21:34:55 | <Guest72> | head ((([1] ++ [2]) ++ [3]) ++ [4]) |
| 21:34:56 | <Guest72> | head (((1 : ([] ++ [2]) ++ [3]) ++ [4]) |
| 21:34:56 | <Guest72> | head ((1 : ([] ++ [2] ++ [3]) ++ [4]) |
| 21:34:57 | <Guest72> | head (1 : ([] ++ [2] ++ [3] ++ [4])) |
| 21:34:57 | <Guest72> | 1 |
| 21:35:49 | <monochrom> | yes |
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| 21:35:55 | <Guest72> | thank you! |
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| 21:42:35 | <EvanR> | too bad we can't hardware accelerate the shifting of parentheses |
| 21:42:55 | <EvanR> | (lisp machines) |
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| 21:57:07 | <Guest72> | If operators have same fixity like : and ++ in "1 : (calculation) ++ [3]) then left operator has first right? |
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| 21:57:58 | <monochrom> | They are both infixr 5. See the r there. |
| 21:58:11 | <monochrom> | You can find out from :info : ++ |
| 22:01:37 | <EvanR> | don't confuse happens first (evaluates first?) with grouping |
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| 22:02:13 | <monochrom> | Yeah. |
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| 22:02:29 | <monochrom> | > False && (((((undefined && undefined))))) |
| 22:02:30 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 22:02:48 | <monochrom> | 5 parentheses to emphasize "do this first!" and it doesn't happen. |
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| 22:08:01 | <monochrom> | In "func arg1 arg2", func happens first, to resolve which function we're even talking about. |
| 22:08:19 | <monochrom> | When happens next is up to what the function says. |
| 22:08:20 | <probie> | We need "do this first" parens |
| 22:08:57 | <monochrom> | So-called "arg1 ++ arg2" is just (++) arg1 arg2, i.e., (++) is func. |
| 22:09:24 | <EvanR> | !(error "1") + !(error "2") |
| 22:09:30 | <EvanR> | do them both first |
| 22:09:36 | <monochrom> | We kind of have seq and $! for "do this first". Although... |
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| 22:09:54 | <EvanR> | the answer is Exception: 12 |
| 22:10:08 | <probie> | Yeah, but I mean something like `f x ⟦y⟧` reducing to `let y' = y in seq y' (f x y')` |
| 22:10:42 | <EvanR> | f ⟦x⟧ ⟦y⟧ -- xD |
| 22:10:53 | <probie> | oh noes |
| 22:11:05 | <monochrom> | f x ⟦y⟧ = f x $! y |
| 22:11:17 | <EvanR> | we need additional syntax to disambiguate which do this first parentheses takes precedence |
| 22:11:33 | <monochrom> | The rare case when I support "use $! to get rid of do-this-first parens" :) |
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| 22:13:29 | <EvanR> | GHC: "don't tell me what to do first" |
| 22:14:16 | <probie> | sure, but that's not good enough for `f ⟦x⟧ y`. Re: we need to disambiguate.. - I've got this `f ⟦x⟧₁ ⟦y⟧₂` just require subscripts if more than one occurs within an expression |
| 22:14:31 | <EvanR> | GHC: your human brain can barely comprehend the time continuum |
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| 22:15:12 | <monochrom> | Is it OK if I also ask for subscripts allowing arbitrary expressions so the order is unknown until run time? |
| 22:15:28 | <EvanR> | probie, imperative programming is quietly chuckling at these features |
| 22:15:28 | <Guest72> | I think of two operators "infixr 3 !" and "infixl 4 !!". In "x ! y !! z" ! wants to group "x ! (y !! z)" because is infixR and !! wants to group "(x ! y) !! z" because is infixL but 4 is higher then it becomes "(x ! y) !! z". Is correct? |
| 22:16:06 | <monochrom> | 3 and 4 trumps r and l |
| 22:16:17 | <Guest72> | ok |
| 22:16:24 | <geekosaur> | f [x]₍ₓ₊₁₎ |
| 22:17:08 | <monochrom> | Cantor and Gödel would love to use that for diagonalization... |
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| 22:17:39 | <EvanR> | r and l only apply if you have a bunch of operators with the same precedence in a row |
| 22:17:51 | <EvanR> | and it's all l or all r, not mixed |
| 22:18:30 | <ski> | bratwurst : `handleEvent :: a -> c -> (b, c)' looks reminiscent of (synchronous) stream processors (and Fudgets) |
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| 22:21:17 | <EvanR> | probie, be bold. conflicting do this first parenthese literally means do them in parallel |
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| 22:22:33 | <Guest72> | EvanR: Like "1 : [2..3] ++ [4]" where : and ++ are all precedence 5 and r? |
| 22:23:01 | <EvanR> | yeah |
| 22:23:04 | <Guest72> | ok! |
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| 22:24:35 | <EvanR> | > 1 : [2] ++ 3 : [4] ++ 5 : [6] |
| 22:24:36 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,4,5,6] |
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| 22:25:21 | <Guest72> | good example! |
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| 22:35:10 | <EvanR> | stackoverflow has a remark As I understand it, a "Skolem variable" is a variable which does not match any other variable, including itself. |
| 22:35:31 | <EvanR> | how would any variable not match itself |
| 22:35:53 | <dsal> | Somedays I don't feel like myself. |
| 22:35:54 | <ski> | should be s/including/except/ |
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| 22:36:20 | <EvanR> | that makes more sense |
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| 22:36:57 | <ski> | (or .. i guess, one could interpret "other" as meaning distinct, so that "including itself" is a contradictory assumption, and then ex falso quodlibet ..) |
| 22:37:10 | <EvanR> | "Seville variable" is a variable which matches any variable that does not match itself? |
| 22:37:12 | <probie> | > let x = 1/(0 :: Double) in x == x |
| 22:37:13 | <lambdabot> | True |
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| 22:37:35 | <probie> | > let x = sqrt (-1) in x == x |
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| 22:37:37 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 22:37:39 | <ski> | "Seville" ? |
| 22:37:43 | <EvanR> | nvm |
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| 22:38:09 | geekosaur | giggled |
| 22:38:10 | <ski> | EvanR : i've seen "eigenvariable" used as an altenative term for "skolem constant/function", fwiw |
| 22:38:27 | <monochrom> | Why should a skolem variable not match itself? |
| 22:38:32 | <geekosaur> | the variable of Seville |
| 22:38:50 | <ski> | oh .. right, the barber |
| 22:39:16 | <monochrom> | sqrt (-1) is NaN. |
| 22:39:26 | <monochrom> | unless you go Complex Double. |
| 22:39:37 | <ski> | .. clearly we need NaNs at the type level |
| 22:39:41 | <EvanR> | if you call it an eigenvariable I immediately start paying attention because it sounds important and powerful |
| 22:39:55 | <probie> | Which made x a variable which did not match (where match is `==`) any other variable, including itself |
| 22:39:55 | <EvanR> | for some reason |
| 22:40:14 | <monochrom> | No wonder they also talk about diagonalization with eigen things... |
| 22:40:51 | <probie> | I just initially forgot that `1/0` was infinity and not NaN |
| 22:41:11 | <EvanR> | > 1/0 |
| 22:41:12 | <lambdabot> | Infinity |
| 22:41:38 | <c_wraith> | > 0/0 |
| 22:41:39 | <lambdabot> | NaN |
| 22:41:43 | <EvanR> | > 1/0 - 1/0 |
| 22:41:44 | <lambdabot> | NaN |
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| 22:42:40 | <nyc> | monochrom: Do you go back to EfNet #math in the 90's? |
| 22:44:37 | <ski> | > (comparing recip <*> negate) 0 |
| 22:44:38 | <lambdabot> | GT |
| 22:44:42 | <ski> | > (compare <*> negate) 0 |
| 22:44:44 | <lambdabot> | EQ |
| 22:45:08 | <monochrom> | nyc: No. |
| 22:47:39 | <nyc> | monochrom: How far back do I know you from? Early 2000's OFTC? |
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| 22:49:36 | <monochrom> | I forgot. |
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| 22:52:24 | <ski> | nyc : hm, apparently i talked to you some, back in 2005 |
| 22:53:32 | <nyc> | ski: There are people I occasionally talk to that I know from the 90's. |
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| 22:53:54 | ski | nods |
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