Logs on 2023-07-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:52:54	<Aditya>	Hi! I'm taking CIS 194 2013, and need some help in verifying my solution to homework 8. Would really appreciate any help I can get!
00:52:55	<Aditya>	https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14vf5fj/cis_194_need_help_in_homework_8/
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01:01:47	<monochrom>	Yes it's totally DP on a tree.
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02:31:29	<bratwurst>	so to model a widget with internal state using reactive-banana i could use accumB?
02:32:03	<bratwurst>	i don't know why i find this so hard. it seems so simple at first but when i get down to writing things it all falls apart
02:33:09	<bratwurst>	i have pseudocode at https://pastebin.com/DgPfsMV3
02:34:08	<bratwurst>	so instead of applyHandler i would use accumB
02:34:21	<bratwurst>	maybe i should just call it a night. my brain tired
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05:26:43	<Inst__>	is Vec.take equivalent to Vec.slice?
05:26:51	<Axman6>	what is Vec
05:28:30	<Inst__>	import qualified Data.Vector as Vec
05:29:06	<Axman6>	they're related, you can implement take using slice, but not the other way around (without drop)
05:29:29	<Inst__>	slice makes a promise of not copying the underlying vector
05:29:33	<Inst__>	but tbh it probably won't work if I tco it
05:29:42	<Inst__>	because it'll still pass the vector around which isn't what i want
05:30:10	<Axman6>	there's a function which expplicitly copies the data into a new vec of the right size IIRC
05:30:28	<Axman6>	possibly called copy
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05:31:33	<Inst__>	back to arguing with mr clojurian i guess
05:31:54	<Inst__>	interesting observation based on multiple data points: people really don't get where clauses, it screws with their heads
05:32:09	<Axman6>	hmm, maybe I am not remembering correctly, I might be thinking of bytrestring. copy for vector is slightly different
05:32:35	<Inst__>	the python and rust version updates array index variables
05:33:30	<Axman6>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/vector-0.13.0.0/docs/Data-Vector.html#v:force
05:33:55	<Axman6>	of course, because they love to break your programs by using mutation. we get to make that explicit using MVector
05:34:30	<c_wraith>	rust doesn't have one slice function. It has several, and the one you use depends on the ownership semantics you want, especially compared to ownership of the parent.
05:35:36	<Inst__>	i mean i have a haskell accum param version using index variables being mutated via accumulating parameter version
05:35:56	<Inst__>	*accumulating parameter recursion)
05:36:08	<Axman6>	I'm not sure what that means, but if you're doing a lot of updates to a vector, you definitewly want to be using the ST monad
05:36:29	<Inst__>	it' ssort of a toy example i'm arguing about, which mr clojure will never admit is more readable. The benefit is more, "where clauses are strange to conventional programmers"
05:36:49	<Inst__>	https://blog.logrocket.com/rust-vs-python-could-rust-replace-python/
05:37:17	<Axman6>	I think that is both nonsense, and superficial. it's not important and you shouldn't spend so much time trying to convince others they're wrong
05:38:10	<Inst__>	it's more of a research project, i.e, he's a contrarian by nature and forces me to reexamine my assumptions
05:38:21	<Inst__>	where clauses being strange I think is an important finding
05:38:22	<monochrom>	You simply shouldn't read blogs in the first place.
05:38:28	<Axman6>	if someone is so confused by such a simple concept as where clauses, then that's their problem. They make many functions much clearer, and can help a lot with the ideas of clean code
05:38:44	<Inst__>	i don't mean it as an assault on where clauses, i prefer and love them myself
05:38:46	<Axman6>	monochrom: even Don Stewart's? D: I learnt so much
05:39:00	<Inst__>	but the point is more, for a traditionally trained programmer, where clauses present a challenge
05:39:11	<Inst__>	because they're used to thinking sequentially
05:39:19	<monochrom>	Rare exceptions. "The exception proves the rule." >:)
05:39:21	<Axman6>	yes, as does declarative programming in general
05:39:32	<Axman6>	monochrom: phew
05:39:52	<monochrom>	Blogs are assumed garbage until proven golden.
05:40:08	<monochrom>	Likewise for generally all of social media, all of internet.
05:40:24	<Inst__>	i don't think that blog is useful, more, it was an opportunity to see how it'd look in Haskell, and potentially to benchmark vs Rust and Python with the toy examples
05:40:29	<monochrom>	There are a few exception gems. If you come across them, cool. The rest, skip.
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05:42:04	<monochrom>	I have spent my young days going to Usenet telling people why they're wrong. Time to recognize that it is a data sink, most humans are broken.
05:42:19	<Inst>	but i guess the question is, when TCO is being applied, and you're cycling slices of a vector, is the vector copied every time, or are you just passing the array indices?
05:42:59	<monochrom>	And even now I'm bothering to say all this, only because I'm taking a break from creating a midterm test, having finished a fun question.
05:43:03	<Inst>	that is actually a productive and useful question; i.e, should we be passing array indices for this purpose, or does slice / take provide sufficient efficiency?
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05:43:23	<Axman6>	it depends on what you're doing to the vector. if you use any "modification" functions that return a new vector, then yes it is copied, if not, no, it'll be passing around a single pointer
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05:44:12	<Inst>	so as long as it's pure slice, it's equivalent to passing the array indices around
05:44:15	<Axman6>	monochrom: I'd be interested to see the question, but I qould guess the liklihood of your students being here is high
05:44:34	<monochrom>	I went to the linked Data.Vector doc page and did a ctrl-F "copy". Basically all functions there specify whether they copy or not. I don't think there is any rocket science left in this.
05:44:44	<Axman6>	yes, slicing a vector allocates like four or five words
05:45:11	<monochrom>	Oooohhhh sometimes it is true that even if they see the question now they're still toasted. >:D
05:46:06	<Inst>	i really should stop using 4k monitor on 100% scaling
05:46:17	<Axman6>	Hopefully some in the class will find it fun though, I probably would've been one of those students back in the day. I (evidently) loved my first Haskell course
05:46:40	<monochrom>	That depends on whether it's 12-inch 4k or 120-inch 4k.
05:46:49	<Inst>	17 inch
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05:47:20	<monochrom>	That's like my 20th century CRT.
05:47:55	<monochrom>	I thought today's minimum is like 24-inch esp. for 4k.
05:48:00	<Inst>	i'm nerdy enough about screen ergonomics to fantasize about the day where laptops are replaced with a 23 inch flexscreen
05:48:53	<monochrom>	Perhaps switch to a VR headset.
05:48:55	<Axman6>	you can buy extra screens that attach to either side of your laptop's screen
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05:49:25	<monochrom>	Really? That is so clip-on. :)
05:49:40	<Inst>	thanks for blowing my mind
05:49:52	<Inst>	https://www.amazon.com/SOOMFON-Portable-Monitor-Extender-Display/
05:50:34	<Axman6>	Linux Tech Tips had a review of one a few weeks ago, that endedup looking like a much more reasonable product than you're initially expect
05:53:55	<Inst>	is there a connection between Lenovo and cool product ideas that never take off?
05:54:08	<Inst>	like, you used to be able to buy a thinkpad with an integrated second screen in the W700DS line
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06:04:37	<jackdk>	"Linux Tech Tips" <- be fair, they did a vid on TempleOS too
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06:10:04	<nyc>	There is some sort of problem with an inplace ghc and ghc-pkg check not passing.
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06:27:49	<geekosaur>	nyc, is that by any chance related to https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23594 ?
06:29:09	<nyc>	I don't know, let me look.
06:29:38	<geekosaur>	(ticket title refers to aarch64 but I think it was found to be more general?)
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06:30:52	<nyc>	geekosaur: I'm trying to use an inplace ghc vs. a bindist.
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07:06:25	<nyc>	geekosaur: There are files missing in the ‘base-4.16.4.0’ package, doesn't look good.
07:09:23	<Axman6>	jackdk: uh, yes, Linus. They do quite a bit of content about open source os's, since they have so much data to store, they do a lot with the ones focused on chonky filesystems
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10:34:05	<danse-nr3>	would you say the haskell community is hype-resistant?
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10:56:44	<Inst>	ummm, tbh, I'll stop criticizing the Haskell community, griping is often inaccurate and is not really helpful
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10:57:37	<Inst>	griping isn't going to make the Haskell community all come together, fix Accelerate, get Brick working on Windows, implement dependent types into GHC within 2 years, get HaskTorch working within 2 years, etc
10:58:14	<dminuoso>	Before we get a fixed accelerate, brick on windows or dependent types... can I just have something THish with cross compilation first?
10:58:46	<Inst>	Brick on Windows, if you check Github, is actually coming along quite well
10:59:05	<Inst>	i'd give it another 6 months before beta version is ready
10:59:33	<Inst>	I popped up to ask about ArrayFire, since it got recommended by Gabriella Gonzalez
10:59:48	<Inst>	and it was updated recently on Hackage, is ArrayFire actually useful for ML tasks in Haskell?
10:59:59	<Inst>	What's the tradeoffs vs tensorflow / pytorch (implicitly hasktorch)?
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11:08:45	<delYsid>	Wait, there is ongoing work to port Brick to Windows? Where can I donate?!
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11:13:39	<elred>	has anyone good with logic read the haskell road to logic, math and programming who'd consider it a good book?
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11:14:28	<Inst>	https://github.com/jtdaugherty/brick/issues/445
11:14:40	<Inst>	https://github.com/jtdaugherty/vty/issues/251
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11:21:00	<danse-nr3>	Inst, actually ... i did not mean to complain. Being hype-resistant is something positive to me
11:21:30	<Inst>	i mean i'd claim that Haskellers tend to be a bit hypeful, but the fact that the hipster community has moved onto Rust has helped
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11:23:12	<danse-nr3>	XD
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11:52:32	<Axman6>	danse-nr3: the "avoid success at all costs" mantra has helped a lot. Most of us are quite happy for Haskell not to be the world's number one programming language, if people don't want to put the effort into learning it, that's their loss. Despite this, as a language it has been highly influential to other languages, and in many ways that's kind of the point of the language - to be a testbed for programming language research
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12:00:57	<jonathan>	If I use servant-client to create tests for my servant API, will those tests catch api regressions? Asking because I can see two scenarios: 1) servant-client automatically updates to match servant api (including changes to the JSON), potentially "masking" regressions 2) Servant-client needs to be manually updated to match latest api, with tests breaking in test-time (discovering any breaking changes)
12:01:30	<jonathan>	(it might function in some other way, but I hope my question is clear enough)
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12:12:02	<danse-nr3>	thanks Axman6 ... i hope haskell is mature enough that being a testbed is not its main point :P ... then it can be particularly suited to research, that is true, but being a test for other languages is an uncomfortable position to have
12:12:29	<danse-nr3>	jonathan, i think the client updates with the server, that is the point of servant. You might want to plan for interface versioning
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12:15:18	<jonathan>	Right. I'm sitting on a codebase with a lot of autoerived from/to json instances, making changes to data types a potential api breakage. As such I want regression tests to guard against accidents. I asked my question to check whether servant-client can help with this :)
12:15:43	<jonathan>	I also think "pobably not", but I'll wait and see if someone knows for sure :)
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12:36:21	<probie>	Is there an easy way to check bounds? e.g. if I specify `foo >= 1.2 && < 1.3` is there a tool to try building my library against every version of foo on hackage that's within those bounds that cabal can produce a build plan for?
12:36:25	<danse-nr3>	jonathan, well if you have a separate package that depends on the former version of the data types, that could catch errors
12:40:10	<jonathan>	So move Api.hs and all the data types into a separate package, use it in both prod and tests, with versioning?
12:43:22	<danse-nr3>	it is just an idea. Maybe check how much effort it takes to spot one of those JSON errors with servant-client before ... you could work off another checkout of the repo
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12:43:59	<danse-nr3>	probie, i am not aware of any
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12:53:14	<__monty__>	probie: I think Hackage runs some form of dependency matrix check. Note that the combinatorial explosion makes that pretty much unfeasible pragmatically.
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13:01:39	<__monty__>	probie: http://matrix.hackage.haskell.org/
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13:07:32	<aditya211935>	Hi! I'm taking CIS 194 2013, and need some help in verifying my solution to homework 8. Would really appreciate any help I can get!
13:07:32	<aditya211935>	https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14vf5fj/cis_194_need_help_in_homework_8/
13:07:50	aditya211935	is now known as aditya
13:08:14	aditya	is now known as aditya211935
13:08:18	<Inst>	has anyone tried using arrayfire as a replacement for accelerate?
13:14:13	<__monty__>	probie: Well, that page isn't loading for me so it's probably not very useful. Here's the code that should be driving it https://github.com/haskell-CI/hackage-matrix-builder Might only be a matrix across GHC versions though. But maybe you can base something off of it.
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14:00:23	<danse-nr3>	Inst, not really, but are they not quite different tools? Accelerate seems to be in native haskell. Cool project by the way
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14:03:49	<Inst>	accelerate the last i checked was broken for recent GHCs
14:06:15	<geekosaur>	accelerate has lots of backends, doesn't it?
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14:11:55	<danse-nr3>	i think that there is another package for high dimensionality in haskell called repa
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14:17:18	<danse-nr3>	geekosaur, yes it seems to have a couple of different backends distributed as external package addons https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate
14:18:48	<Athas>	I can't decide whether I think '--test-show-details=streaming' should be the default for 'cabal test'.
14:19:06	<Athas>	On the one hand, it feels good to see a bunch of succesful tests scroll by. On the other hand, I do associate lack of output with success.
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14:22:53	<danse-nr3>	yeah, that is a common pattern for command line tools and it helps a lot. I am not sure ... sounds like an improvement
14:23:21	<Axman6>	I'm a little scared; I made a pretty significant change to the ghc AArch64 backend, and the first time it compiled, all the tests passed D:
14:24:51	<danse-nr3>	type safety works! Nah probably it is all untested
14:25:34	<Axman6>	nah this is fundamental enough that things would segfault or produce invalid assembly if I got it really wrong
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14:29:55	<Athas>	Axman6: you must have broken the test suite.
14:30:04	<Athas>	The test suite uses the AArch64 backend too, right?
14:30:25	<Axman6>	it's possible.. nah unliklely, I haven't written any tests (=
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14:40:25	<zzz>	self testing test suites <3
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14:49:04	<Athas>	I wonder how hunit is tested.
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14:54:03	<zzz>	XD https://github.com/hspec/HUnit
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18:29:55	<tomsmeding>	Athas: I hate 'cabal test' with a passion
18:30:11	<tomsmeding>	I just 'cabal run' the test-suite and am happy that way
18:30:40	<tomsmeding>	not only is streaming useful to see progress and see early that things are stuck somewhere, or that you can cancel the test run because everything is failing
18:31:01	<tomsmeding>	and to not hvae to open a file to see test results after things failed, which misses colouring
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18:38:53	<Hecate>	tomsmeding: I think the behaviour will be better in the next release, I've seen a PR in that direction
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18:41:41	<tomsmeding>	Hecate: link, what's the behaviour change?
18:41:49	<tomsmeding>	or keyword
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18:42:27	<mauke>	does haskell have a standard testing protocol now?
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18:54:15	<Hecate>	https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/8942 tomsmeding
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19:13:30	<chreekat>	<Hecate> "https://github.com/haskell/cabal..." <- Hallelujah
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19:24:51	<tomsmeding>	\o/
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19:31:21	<m21it>	Is there some optic which is capable of creating keys like `x & at key ?~ val` but dealing with multiple keys at once like for example each is doing `x & each %~ (+1)`, so I want something like `x & ats keys ?~ val`?
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19:47:36	<Noinia>	my hoogle-fu is failing me. Clearly something like this must exist in base somewhere instead of in some random 'extra' package:
19:47:40	<Noinia>	guard' b x = if b then empty else pure x :: Alternative f => Bool -> a -> f a
19:47:53	<Noinia>	any ideas?
19:49:27	<Noinia>	err, I guess I want if not b then emtpy, but whatever
19:50:50	<probie>	:t \b x -> x <$ guard b
19:50:50	<lambdabot>	Alternative f => Bool -> a -> f a
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19:56:13	<Noinia>	ah nice!
19:57:01	<Noinia>	Thanks!
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19:59:04	<probie>	Noinia: I don't see it used with `guard` particularly often, but the idiom `x <$ someParser` pops up a lot when people using parsing libraries like parsec
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20:29:39	<EvanR>	i can't seem to trigger a monomorphism restriction-based error in ghci even while enabling MonomorphismRestriction and MonoLocalBinds. Is this phenomenon just gone
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20:35:46	<geekosaur>	https://paste.tomsmeding.com/yD7RkV8i
20:36:31	<geekosaur>	the error then happens when you use `g` at some type that `(+)` would work at
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20:38:03	<int-e>	> let x = 1 in truncate x + x
20:38:04	<lambdabot>	2
20:38:24	<int-e>	(that fails with the monomorpism restriction enabled)
20:39:09	<EvanR>	i tried this
20:39:16	<EvanR>	> let f = 5 in (5+1, sqrt 5)
20:39:17	<lambdabot>	(6,2.23606797749979)
20:39:20	<EvanR>	and this
20:39:35	<EvanR>	> let f = \x -> x in (f 'a', f 1)
20:39:36	<lambdabot>	('a',1)
20:39:49	<EvanR>	MonoLocalBinds enabled, still works
20:40:08	<EvanR>	wait
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20:40:16	<EvanR>	> let f = 5 in (f+1, sqrt f)
20:40:17	<lambdabot>	(6,2.23606797749979)
20:40:46	<EvanR>	grrr
20:41:19	<EvanR>	> let f = 5 in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
20:41:21	<lambdabot>	(2,2.23606797749979)
20:41:49	<int-e>	EvanR: note that the type changes with MonoLocalBinds
20:42:22	<int-e>	hmm, no. but it does with MonomorphismRestriction
20:42:40	<EvanR>	I see that
20:42:54	<EvanR>	:t let f = 5 in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
20:42:55	<lambdabot>	(Integral a, Floating b) => (a, b)
20:43:10	<EvanR>	(Integral b, Floating b) => (b,b)
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20:49:15	<int-e>	forall a. Num a => a is "closed" following the description of https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/let_generalisation.html so it'll stay generalized
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20:50:16	<int-e>	I feel that documentation lacks a convincing negative example (something that is generalized without MonoLocalBinds but isn't with MonoLocalBinds)
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20:51:39	<int-e>	> let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) -- apparently this is an example, from https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html
20:51:41	<lambdabot>	<no location info>: error:
20:51:41	<lambdabot>	not an expression: ‘let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) -- appare...
20:51:52	<int-e>	err,
20:52:10	<int-e>	> let f x = let p y = (x, y) in (p '1', p 1) in f ()
20:52:11	<lambdabot>	error:
20:52:11	<lambdabot>	• No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘1’
20:52:11	<lambdabot>	• In the first argument of ‘p’, namely ‘1’
20:52:44	<int-e>	(would be accepted with NoMonoLocalBinds)
20:55:41	<EvanR>	hear me out for a second, why the hell is this even a thing. Why not just generalize let defined functions like a sane person. Don't think I've seen an explanation of this. I.e. the whole point
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20:56:41	<EvanR>	compile performance?
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21:00:12	<geekosaur>	you mean, why does it exist? type family resolution, apparently
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21:00:47	<sm>	out of order! out of order! it is unvarnished poppycock, gentlemen and ladies! He challenges our time-honoured traditions. I call for the member to return to his seat!
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21:01:08	<EvanR>	no!
21:01:27	<bratwurst>	i feel like an idiot. i couldn't understand 'mapAccumB'. just now i realized that's what my widgets are is 'mapAccumB'
21:01:40	<EvanR>	monomorphism restriction pre-dates type families entirely?
21:01:43	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/GX6T6hyY
21:01:46	<geekosaur>	https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html
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21:01:56	<geekosaur>	oh, someone linked that
21:02:03	<tomsmeding>	would you have expected the hi to be printed twice?
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21:02:17	<EvanR>	yeah I was looking at this blog
21:02:34	<geekosaur>	there's also a paper about it
21:02:45	<geekosaur>	https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/outsideinx-modular-type-inference-with-local-assumptions/ section 4.2
21:02:49	<EvanR>	have that paper open xD
21:03:01	<EvanR>	but why was MR a thing in e.g. haskell 1.0
21:03:13	<EvanR>	haskell89 xD
21:03:19	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: have you seen my paste?
21:03:25	<EvanR>	going there next
21:03:38	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: addendum is that repeating 'print (a :: Float)' also repeats hi
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21:03:58	<geekosaur>	because if you treat a top level binding without parameters as a "constant", as is usually expected, it'll be separately a constant/memoized at each type
21:04:00	<tomsmeding>	whereas writing 'let b = trace "bye" (42 :: Float)' and then repeating 'print b' only gives "bye" the first time
21:04:14	<tomsmeding>	a polymorphic value is a function
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21:04:21	<tomsmeding>	you invoke it each time you use it
21:04:24	<geekosaur>	which can waste memory and produce other surprises
21:05:08	<tomsmeding>	the only reaon why two uses of 'a' at type Float would not result in "hi" twice in a source file (as opposed to the repl) is common subexpression elimination perhaps firing, but CSE is kinda reluctant in GHC
21:05:27	<tomsmeding>	substitute "trace" with "really expensive computation" of course
21:07:12	<mauke>	geekosaur: I don't think it's memoized at all
21:07:28	<geekosaur>	mm, no, it'd be a function of a dictionary
21:07:32	<geekosaur>	sorry
21:07:56	<EvanR>	when I did let f = 5, yeah ok there's a dictionary involved
21:08:00	<EvanR>	but
21:08:12	<EvanR>	with MR enabled this still works
21:08:28	<mauke>	... are you asking about the MR or not?
21:08:31	<EvanR>	let f = undefined in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
21:08:44	<EvanR>	:t let f = undefined in (f `div` 2, sqrt f)
21:08:45	<lambdabot>	(Integral a, Floating b) => (a, b)
21:08:48	<EvanR>	not (b,b)
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21:10:06	<EvanR>	in this case f's polymorphic but not a function
21:10:22	<EvanR>	that we know of
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21:11:54	<EvanR>	but ok tomsmeding, you're saying it's really about constants which depend on choice of type class
21:12:49	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: if a thing 'x' is polymorphic in a type variable a' without taking a type class dictionary depending on 'a', perhaps 'x' can be evaluated once and then used at all types 'a' without recomputation?
21:13:08	<tomsmeding>	seems like parametricity implies that recomputation is not necessary in that case
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21:14:33	<geekosaur>	EvanR, that one is not MR, it's MLB
21:14:38	<tomsmeding>	the section of the haskell report linked from the MR GHC user guide page ( https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/decls.html#sect4.5.5 ) explicitly mentions type classes in some fashion
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21:14:54	<EvanR>	MLB?
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21:15:02	<tomsmeding>	MonoLocalBinds
21:15:27	<EvanR>	it works with MonoLocalBinds enabled
21:15:29	<geekosaur>	mm, but it still works
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21:15:56	<EvanR>	tomsmeding, alright, that clears up some of the ancient motivations
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21:17:02	<tomsmeding>	perhaps the "Which bindings are affected?" section of https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20100930-LetGeneralisationInGhc7.html applies?
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21:17:49	<tomsmeding>	i.e. the f bindings we're talking about here do not fall under the reponsibility of MonoLocalBinds but of MonomorphismRestriction, because they are fake-local: they don't reference any local variables so could have been global
21:17:55	<geekosaur>	I just dropped in a partial type signature and found that the type of f doesn't involve a typeclass
21:18:23	tomsmeding	is off to bed
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21:44:32	<boxscape_>	Hi, I uploaded a new version of my package yesterday https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monadic-bang-0.1.1.0 and the badge says "Build: PlanningFailed", apparently because I require at least base 4.17, but 4.16 is installed. Is there something I should do here or does this just not work with GHC >= 9.4?
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21:58:07	<geekosaur>	that's probably a question for #haskell-infrastructure
21:59:33	<boxscape_>	will try thank you
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22:11:42	<jackdk>	Hackage might not be trying to build your package with the newer GHC?
22:12:37	<boxscape>	jackdk right my question is partially whether I should be doing something to change that or if that's out of my control
22:13:21	<jackdk>	I don't know. If you can admit earlier GHCs then you can loosen the base lower bound but that's all I got
22:13:44	<boxscape>	yeah can't unfortunately because it relies on plugin features I added in GHC 9.4
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22:18:03	<geekosaur>	my guess is you're out of luck
22:18:47	<geekosaur>	someone needs to sit down and fix hackage-matrix, but everyone's afraid to touch it 🙂
22:21:07	<boxscape>	oh well, I can live with this for now I guess
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22:25:35	<geekosaur>	(wow, hasn't been touched since ghc 8.4, /me suspects this will require some work)
22:25:58	<geekosaur>	(yes, I am silly enough to have cloned it and tried to build)
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22:58:13	<bratwurst>	anyone willing to give some guidance on reactive-banana?
22:58:24	<bratwurst>	i have code at https://pastebin.com/NHbe46jb
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22:59:08	<bratwurst>	my first question is with kbw definition
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22:59:42	<bratwurst>	i get that doodleB is the behavior.
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23:00:47	<bratwurst>	so should 'kbFocused' actually be taking something from 'changes'?
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23:01:29	<bratwurst>	i should end up with something of type 'Event ?'
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23:01:59	<bratwurst>	because every time doodle changes i want to see if it was a kb focus change
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23:09:38	<jackdk>	Please try and use fewer/longer messages - you've pushed everything else off the screen. I don't know what reactive-banana<->sdl binding you're using. I haven't done FRP for a while but you almost never want to construct `Event`/`Behavior` from scratch unless you're binding to something outside your little FRP world. You do that with `fromAddHandler` to make a `MomentIO (Event a)` or `fromChanges` to make a `MomentIO (Behavior a)`
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23:11:33	<jackdk>	I'd also recommend the links I've collected at http://jackkelly.name/wiki/haskell/learning.html#functional-reactive-programming . Even if you're not going all the way to `reflex`, the workshop is great for getting around the abstractions, and you can bring back the idea of a `Dynamic a = (Event a, Behavior a)` where the event fires iff the behavior changes. I'd build those with `mapAccum` in bananaland.
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23:17:59	<EvanR>	don't try to make e.g. a sine wave behavior and then fire an event every time it changes
23:18:28	<EvanR>	it voids the warranty
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23:19:01	<ski>	% let emptyList = Debug.Trace.trace "emptyList" []
23:19:01	<yahb2>	<no output>
23:19:05	<ski>	% emptyList
23:19:05	<yahb2>	emptyList ; []
23:19:07	<ski>	% emptyList :: [Bool]
23:19:07	<yahb2>	[]
23:19:50	<bratwurst>	reason i'm finding this confusing is cause when i write something "naturally" the api seems to expect something different
23:20:14	<ski>	bratwurst : hm, why `DatatypeContexts' ?
23:20:15	<EvanR>	sounds like a bug in the naturally part
23:21:00	<bratwurst>	ski: oh sorry. i had it as a class def but didn't think i needed overloading so i meant to change it to an existential type
23:21:17	<bratwurst>	EvanR: i would agree :)
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23:21:53	<bratwurst>	for example, i don't get how kbFocused becomes a 'Behavior'
23:21:55	<ski>	it's generally agreed that `DatatypeContexts' doesn't do what you expect it to do, or at least that what it does doesn't tend to be that useful
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23:24:59	<ski>	bratwurst : do note that `exists c. (c,c -> ..c..)' is equivalent to `nu c. ..c..' (greatest fixed point)
23:25:43	<bratwurst>	ski: i will probably end up discarding my widget definition once i understand rb better
23:25:48	<jackdk>	Remember that `Behavior` is an `Applicative`, so you can lift pure values into it without fussing around with IORefs or whatever.
23:27:00	<ski>	by which i mean to point out that `data Widget b = forall c. MkWidget Box c (Key -> c -> (b,c)) (Mouse -> c -> (b,c))' (note i omitted `Render c => ' after `forall c. ', since i don't know how `Render' is defined) is equivalent to `data Widget b = MkWidget Box (Key -> (b,Widget b)) (Mouse -> (b,Widget b))'
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23:30:00	<ski>	there seems to be no `writeIORef', yea
23:30:57	<ski>	i imagine `type DoodleIO = IORef Doodle' as well as (correction) `kbFocused :: DoodleIO -> IO Nick'
23:32:04	<bratwurst>	ski: yes you have that right. sorry not everything is there because i'm still trying to wrap my head around what i'm doing wrong
23:32:59	ski	's not really that familiar with `reactive-banana', fwiw
23:33:39	<bratwurst>	yeah there's not much on hackage to go by either.
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23:34:26	<ski>	.. oh, `Widget' was a class, with `Render' as superclass, yesterday
23:34:30	ski	'd forgotten
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23:35:27	<ski>	anyway, `Widget Key AppEvent WidgetInternalState' for `Widget a b c' sounds like you'd want to keep `c' private (existential)
23:35:42	<bratwurst>	in my lib, 'class Render a' has one method 'render :: Sz -> a -> Picture'
23:36:04	<bratwurst>	'Widget' is for things that have a size, a position and can be drawn
23:36:49	<bratwurst>	ski: it seems like i will be replacing my 'Widget' definition with behaviors and mapAccumB
23:37:07	<bratwurst>	i'm just not sure how
23:37:08	<ski>	ok, good. so `data Widget b = forall c. MkWidget Box c (Sz -> c -> Picture) (Key -> c -> (b,c)) (Mouse -> c -> (b,c))' then corresponds to `data Widget b = MkWidget Box (Sz -> Picture) (Key -> (b,Widget b)) (Mouse -> (b,Widget b))''
23:38:05	<bratwurst>	what would be the name of how you're transforming this?
23:38:23	<ski>	<ski> bratwurst : do note that `exists c. (c,c -> ..c..)' is equivalent to `nu c. ..c..' (greatest fixed point)
23:38:53	<bratwurst>	lol. i don't know what 'nu' is. what do i look up?
23:39:09	<bratwurst>	so nu is a greek symbol?
23:39:21	<bratwurst>	defined to represent the greatest fixed point
23:39:23	<ski>	hm .. i guess i sometimes call this (in the reverse direction), the "State encoding" (cf. "Church encoding")
23:40:26	<ski>	("Church encoding" being how `forall r. (..r.. -> r) -> r' is equivalent to `mu r. ..r..')
23:40:36	<ski>	yes, greek symbols
23:40:55	<ski>	consider
23:41:07	<ski>	data Nat = Zero \| Succ Nat
23:41:27	<ski>	we can reformulate/refactor this as/to
23:41:55	<ski>	newtype Nat = MkNat (Either () Nat)
23:42:07	<ski>	(or `Maybe' in place of `Either ()', if you prefer)
23:42:20	<ski>	bratwurst : you see this ?
23:44:03	<bratwurst>	'Left ()' would terminate things and there would be as many wraps as <n>
23:44:11	<ski>	yes
23:44:26	<ski>	in more "algebraic" notation, we could write the above as
23:44:30	<ski>	Nat = 1 + Nat
23:45:32	<jackdk>	bratwurst: Possibly useful to you: a small example which reads stdin and prints to stdout https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/4vKg7tBe/BananaLines.hs
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23:46:57	<ski>	(replacing `()' (the "unit" type, which has one (total / non-partial) inhabitant) with `1', and replacing `Either t u' (the "sum" type, which has `m + n' inhabitants, if `t' has `m' inhabitants and `u' has `n') with `t + u')
23:47:47	<ski>	anyway, the problem now is that the equation `Nat = 1 + Nat' (in the unknown `Nat') has more than one solution
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23:49:05	<ski>	more generally, we have an equation of the form `t = F t', where `t' is the unknown/sought, and `F' is some type function. this is a "fixed point equation", because we're asking for an input (type) `t' to pass to `F', that gives the same `t' back as output (type)
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23:50:09	<bratwurst>	ok. makes sense so far
23:50:30	<ski>	anyway, the least fixed point solution `t' for `t = 1 + t' is `t = Nat', for our usual intended notion of `Nat' ((finite !) natural numbers). the least fixed point is written `mu t. 1 + t'
23:51:43	<ski>	the greatest fixed point solution `t' for `t = 1 + t' would be a notion of "(extended) natural numbers" that also contains an "infinity", namely what you get by `inf = Succ inf' / `inf = MkNat (Right inf)' in Haskell .. it's infinitely deep, never stops
23:51:59	<ski>	the greatest fixed point is written `nu t. 1 + t'
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23:53:18	<ski>	because Haskell is non-strict, we actually get the greatest fixed-point solution, with `data Nat = Zero \| Succ Nat' (or the `newtype' variant), since we can define `int = Succ inf' (and we can compute with it)
23:53:46	<bratwurst>	i think i get what you're saying now. because 'c' is a parameter to everything in my type it's "not there"
23:53:55	<ski>	(well, it's more complicated in Haskell, because you also have "bottom" values, like `_\|_',`Succ _\|_',`Succ (Succ _\|_)',.. in `Nat' ..)
23:55:38	<ski>	anyway, often we really intend the least fixed point solution (the "finitely deep data structures, wrt some data type recursion"), rather than the greatest fixed point solution (the "potentially infinitely deep data structures / processes, wrt some data type recursion") .. so we can pretend that the recursive type we have (abstractly) is of the form `mu r. ..r..'
23:56:17	<ski>	anyway, you should be able to convince yourself that `[a] = mu r. 1 + a * r'
23:56:51	<ski>	however, when one's doing e.g. "OO"-like things, usually one wants the greatest fixed point version
23:56:58	<ski>	simplest non-trivial example is probably
23:57:14	<ski>	data Stream a = MkStream {head :: a,tail :: Stream a}
23:57:20	<ski>	clearly, the corresponding equation here is
23:57:28	<ski>	Stream a = a * Stream a
23:58:19	<ski>	but if we only intend finitely deep values, then this type would be empty (as it would be in a strict programming language, like e.g. SML,OCaml,F# ..)
23:58:31	<ski>	so, in this case, we really mean `Stream a = nu s. a * s'
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23:59:46	<ski>	we can send a `head' message to a "stream object", and it'll tell us its current element value. and we can send a `tail' message to it, and it'll generate a new object state for us (usually traditional OO would use mutation of the original object here, but if we instead return a clone with some private state updated, this is what we get)

All times are in UTC on 2023-07-10.