Logs on 2023-07-14 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:27:57 | <jackdk> | A colleague just asked me if there's a connection between `parse . print = Just` roundtripping and adjunctions, and I don't know enough CT to answer. It smells like it should, and the `unit :: a -> u (f a)` from package `adjunctions` looks like a thing, but can anyone here say something more solid about it? |
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| 04:30:14 | <Clinton[m]> | If I've got the function:... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/99909fa3ec60c42419365daa10d875c9dc4a3a45>) |
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| 04:34:38 | <probie> | Clinton[m]: No. Using `bmap` you can only get as far as `(forall a. f a -> m (g a)) -> b f -> (b (Compose m g))`. If you're using barbies (which I'm guessing from `bmap`), look at `btraverse` and `TraversableB` |
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| 05:00:13 | <jackdk> | "If I've got the function... na na na na na na na na na na na na na na ..." (apologies to Fiddler on the Roof) |
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| 05:06:19 | <probie> | You may ask, how did this tradition get started? I'll tell you... I don't know. |
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| 05:25:42 | <frase> | o/ Is there a machine-readable list or index of GHC release versions somewhere? |
| 05:25:53 | <frase> | Asking for a Security Response Team :) |
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| 05:30:35 | <probie> | I don't know, but if all else fails (and you only need versions >= 7.2.1), you could always pull the latest version of ghc's repo and run `git tag -l | grep -E 'release$'` |
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| 05:33:06 | <frase> | probie: that will probably be OK, if I can get the tag list via the GitLab API. |
| 05:33:09 | <frase> | thanks for the tip |
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| 06:30:45 | <jackdk> | frase: surely ghcup queries for such a list? |
| 06:31:01 | <jackdk> | Clinton[m]: did probie's suggestion get you unstuck? |
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| 06:32:53 | <frase> | jackdk: as I understand it, ghcup gets explicitly told about particular "supported" releases, rather than querying and making anything available |
| 06:33:10 | <frase> | i.e. after a new GHC release, GHCUp will then have to be updated to learn about it. Maybe I'm wrong, that's just the feeling I get :) |
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| 06:52:02 | <frase> | jackdk: yeah, GHCUp uses curated metadata from the haskell/ghcup-metadata repo: https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/blob/develop/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml |
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| 07:13:15 | <arahael_> | I'm re-reading about monads. (Some much, much needed "revision", really). And the haskell wiki mentions this about Monads: |
| 07:13:20 | <arahael_> | The sequence function takes a list of monadic computations, executes each one in turn and returns a list of the results. If any of the computations fail, then the whole function fails: |
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| 07:13:54 | <arahael_> | My question is: Are monads really inherently a "computation"? What's the "computation" involved with say, a single Maybe monad? |
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| 07:15:30 | <eggplantade> | It decides whether the monad has zero or one values and what the one value is |
| 07:15:55 | <arahael_> | So it only works for MonadPlsu? |
| 07:15:58 | <arahael_> | *MonadPlus? |
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| 07:16:58 | <eggplantade> | Not necessarily |
| 07:17:33 | <arahael_> | I mean, I can mechanically figure out what is happening with the sequence function it gives as an advantage, what I'm strugglign with is the language: Why does it describe it as applying a list of *computations*? |
| 07:17:53 | <eggplantade> | Saying that monads are computations is an analogy. There's always an interpretation of "monad" that makes it true, but that interpretation isn't always useful. |
| 07:18:43 | <arahael_> | Ah, so it could be a list of computations, if the monad you're using just happens to be a computation, and it was trying to describe it like that to make it easier to think of? So eg, if it was an IO monad that makes sense I guess. |
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| 07:18:58 | <Hecate> | arahael_: the thing with monads (a vast majority of them) is sequentiality |
| 07:19:33 | <Hecate> | that's a way to make two things depend on one another, and more specifically on the value they produce |
| 07:19:46 | <Hecate> | and what produces values? a computation :) |
| 07:19:47 | <arahael_> | Hecate: But they aren't inherently a computation of their own? |
| 07:20:01 | <Rembane> | It becomes syntactically obvious if written out with many bind (>>=) operators. |
| 07:20:27 | <arahael_> | Oooh, I see. So you can think of them as "This monad produces a value depending on the value that's put into it"? |
| 07:20:28 | <Hecate> | arahael_: they are by virtue of producing something that the next function has to wait on |
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| 07:20:56 | <arahael_> | Hecate: I was trying to figure out what the stored computation of the following list of computations were: [Just 42] |
| 07:21:37 | <Hecate> | arahael_: there is no bind / >>= involved :p |
| 07:21:42 | <Hecate> | so, no monad |
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| 07:21:59 | <eggplantade> | It's still a monad when it just has return, like in this case |
| 07:22:12 | <arahael_> | Hecate: Pretty sure :t will state that there is categorically a monad there. |
| 07:22:17 | <Rembane> | A boring monad. :D |
| 07:22:18 | <Maxdamantus> | I think the use of the term "computation" is to avoid calling the `m a` value a "monad", since that's inaccurate. |
| 07:22:47 | <arahael_> | Maxdamantus: Oooh, why is that incorrect if 'm' has been defined to be a Monad type? |
| 07:22:57 | <eggplantade> | And it's still a computation, just a trivial one. The computation provides the value that was put into it. |
| 07:23:05 | <Maxdamantus> | they just need some term to generically describe the `m a` values, eg, `IO String` or `Maybe Int` |
| 07:23:11 | <Hecate> | arahael_: the interface necessary for calling bind has been implemented (that's what :t would tell you) but you don't make use of it :'D |
| 07:23:33 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: because the monad is really the implementation of the `Monad m` interface. |
| 07:23:33 | <arahael_> | eggplantade: Makes sense. :D |
| 07:24:19 | <eggplantade> | May be more helpful to look at the difference when you put `undefined` in place of part of it |
| 07:24:28 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: `Just 4` is not a monad. The relevant monad is the one defined using `instance Monad Maybe ...` |
| 07:24:55 | <eggplantade> | It's a value of that monadic type, to be precise |
| 07:25:05 | <arahael_> | Maxdamantus: This is the type definition of the 'sequence' function that the original statement I'm asking about is applied against: sequence :: Monad m => [m a] -> m [a] |
| 07:25:14 | <arahael_> | That list could be empty, have only one item, or have many items. |
| 07:25:15 | <Hecate> | yeah, let's use some terminology here: values are, computations do |
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| 07:25:26 | <Hecate> | Just 4 is a monadic value, it doesn't do much |
| 07:25:48 | <Maxdamantus> | Well, I think that's what is meant by "computation" in the Haskell wiki. |
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| 07:25:59 | <Hecate> | when you use bind / >>= / do-notation, several computations are waiting on each-other in order to execute |
| 07:25:59 | <Maxdamantus> | "monadic value" = "computation" |
| 07:26:10 | <arahael_> | Hecate: That makes sense, so these would be a a list of monad values, and `sequence` applies the monadic computations for those values, in sequence? |
| 07:26:49 | <Hecate> | let me see the definition of sequence again |
| 07:27:04 | <arahael_> | > The sequence function takes a list of monadic computations, executes each one in turn and returns a list of the results. If any of the computations fail, then the whole function fails: |
| 07:27:05 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:36: error: parse error on input ‘of’ |
| 07:27:30 | <Hecate> | yeah it's a foldr for lists |
| 07:27:45 | <arahael_> | https://wiki.haskell.org/All_About_Monads#The_sequencing_functions |
| 07:28:04 | <Maxdamantus> | imo calling them "computations" is more precise, since "monadic value" is also a potentially misleading term. |
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| 07:28:21 | <arahael_> | Maxdamantus: That's precisely the insight I'm trying to understand. |
| 07:28:29 | <Maxdamantus> | although it doesn't really work in Haskell, the values could be independent of any particular monad. |
| 07:28:46 | <arahael_> | Ah, and I'm only concerned about Haskell in this case... |
| 07:29:04 | <Maxdamantus> | eg, you could conceptually have an "identity" monad, where every value is already a computation. |
| 07:29:55 | <Maxdamantus> | (again, this doesn't really work in Haskell due to the way type classes work .. or at least, it doesn't work when thinking about the standard `Monad` type class) |
| 07:30:22 | <arahael_> | So where are they getting that concept from? Category theory? |
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| 07:33:29 | <eggplantade> | So to think of the list monad as a computation, consider `primes :: [Integer]` that computes the prime numbers in order |
| 07:33:29 | <Maxdamantus> | possibly. I've never quite understood how things fit together in category theory, but you can always take the Haskell `Monad` type class and imagine it as an interface in basically any programming language (though depending on the language, you might have to break some rules). |
| 07:34:01 | <eggplantade> | Given a reasonable implementation of `primes, you can take values from the list as much as you want until the computer runs out of memory |
| 07:34:26 | <eggplantade> | as you take more values, you're making it work with bigger numbers and it will slow down |
| 07:34:44 | <eggplantade> | But you don't have to take all the values. You can take just a few. And it will only compute those few numbers. |
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| 07:37:24 | <Maxdamantus> | eg, here's the interface expressed in Java: interface Monad<M> { <A> M<A> unit(A v); <A, B> M<B> bind(M<A> a, Function<A, B> fn); } |
| 07:37:47 | <Maxdamantus> | then if you provide an implementation of `Monad<List>`, that would be a `List` monad. |
| 07:37:48 | <arahael_> | I think the trouble I had was both in thinking that the list contained *distinct* computations - I think it's probably more correct for me to say that the whole list defines a computation, it's only going to be using the one monad instance to run it anyway. |
| 07:38:13 | <arahael_> | Effectively 'sequence' runs a program. |
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| 07:39:04 | <eggplantade> | Ah, `sequence` does some specific kind of computation using the monad operations. It doesn't "run" a monad. |
| 07:39:14 | <Maxdamantus> | (the Java interface is not quite valid Java, since `M` is meant to be a type-level function rather than a type, and Java only allows types as type parameters) |
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| 07:40:54 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: no, they are distinct computations. |
| 07:41:18 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: an `m a` value is a computation. "computation" is just a generic term that is used for all monads. |
| 07:41:36 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: eg, `Just 4` is considered to be a computation that would yield the value `4` |
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| 07:43:05 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: there isn't a universal way to actually run a computation, but the monad provides the bind operation which allows you to derive one "computation" into another "computation". |
| 07:43:35 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: `sequence` makes use of that to derive multiple "computations" into another "computation". |
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| 07:45:25 | <Maxdamantus> | arahael_: eg, `[Just 4, Just 3, Just 9]` is a list of computations (3 computations, yielding 3 values). `sequence` will turn that into a single computation, particularly `Just [4, 3, 9]` (one computation, yielding one value). |
| 07:46:19 | <probie> | Is `3` a computation yielding `3`? |
| 07:47:15 | <Maxdamantus> | probie: it could be thought of that way in an identity monad, yes. |
| 07:47:33 | <Maxdamantus> | probie: though it doesn't really work that way in Haskell. |
| 07:48:03 | <Maxdamantus> | probie: Haskell's `Monad` type class always requires a distinct type constructor for each monad. |
| 07:48:48 | <probie> | so the only things that are computations are those which involve "monads"? |
| 07:49:16 | <arahael_> | Maxdamantus: I think that makes sense when I think about it more. |
| 07:49:29 | <Maxdamantus> | probie: yes. The things that are acceptable as the first argument to the `(>>=)` function. |
| 07:49:37 | <eggplantade> | probie: In this context, we are only talking about how monads are used for representing computations |
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| 07:50:35 | <eggplantade> | Computation can also happen without monads, but that isn't what the question was about |
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| 07:51:22 | <arahael_> | Yeah, the question was pretty specific - just about monads being referred to as a computation. |
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| 07:53:04 | <Maxdamantus> | probie: in a constructor-less identity monad, you could have `return = id` and `(>>=) = map` |
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| 07:53:23 | <Maxdamantus> | er, `(>>=) = flip map` |
| 07:53:41 | <Maxdamantus> | er, wait, no, that's not right. |
| 07:53:44 | <probie> | :t flip ($) |
| 07:53:45 | <lambdabot> | a -> (a -> c) -> c |
| 07:54:35 | <Maxdamantus> | Yeah, it should be `(>>=) = flip ($)` (or `(>>=) = flip id)` |
| 07:54:37 | <Maxdamantus> | ) |
| 07:54:51 | <Maxdamantus> | :t flip id |
| 07:54:52 | <lambdabot> | b -> (b -> c) -> c |
| 07:57:09 | <Maxdamantus> | anyway, in such a monad, every value would be allowed as the first argument to `(>>=)`. do{ a <- 4; b <- 5; return (a + b) } |
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| 07:57:32 | <Maxdamantus> | 4 >>= \a -> 5 >>= \b -> return (a + b) |
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| 08:14:33 | <Profpatsch> | Is there any way to write an instance without having to import the instance functions I’m defining |
| 08:14:43 | <Profpatsch> | import Control.Category((.)) is a bit annoying |
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| 08:21:27 | <Profpatsch> | Oh, looks like I can import Control.Category qualified and it still registers |
| 08:22:34 | <jackdk> | Profpatsch https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uR9oDyF3/QualifiedCategory.hs |
| 08:22:38 | <jackdk> | Oh, you got it |
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| 08:58:17 | <Profpatsch> | yeah :) |
| 08:58:19 | <Profpatsch> | it’s a bit confusing |
| 08:58:35 | <Profpatsch> | I usually get it right, but when I don’t I’ve forgotten about the edge case |
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| 09:16:30 | <jade[m]> | I wonder whether we could get some sort of first-class module system in the future |
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| 09:24:10 | <merijn> | jade[m]: have you looked at backpack? |
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| 13:07:56 | <albet70> | if call g inside f and call z inside g, now how to pass a new parameter to z in where f is calling? add a new parameter in all of they definition? |
| 13:08:14 | <albet70> | their |
| 13:08:30 | <geekosaur> | there is an evil hack (imo) called implicit parameters |
| 13:09:11 | <albet70> | example? |
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| 13:11:36 | <albet70> | like def f(a, b=1) in python? |
| 13:11:53 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 13:11:56 | <lyxia> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/implicit_parameters.html |
| 13:12:12 | <geekosaur> | it hides values in the context instead of as parameters |
| 13:12:42 | <merijn> | alternatively, if you're using ReaderT with an environment, you can pass stuff that way |
| 13:13:05 | <merijn> | This is why I often like ReaderT for exploring what kinda API I want, easy to thread stuff through the application |
| 13:13:06 | <lyxia> | though you should just try adding the parameters normally first and see what pain point you run into specifically |
| 13:14:03 | <Rembane> | Another way is to put everything into a record and pass that along. |
| 13:14:22 | <int-e> | or maybe define functions locally (if g and z are locally defined inside f, then they get access to f's parameters without syntactic noise) |
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| 13:15:02 | <albet70> | into a record is very OOP |
| 13:15:45 | <geekosaur> | not really |
| 13:15:58 | <lyxia> | even if it were, OOP doesn't mean bad |
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| 13:16:01 | <albet70> | inside f would make f very big, not good for composing |
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| 13:17:20 | <danse-nr3_> | implicit parameters looks like an evil hack indeed |
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| 13:19:05 | <dminuoso> | https://chrisdone.com/posts/whats-wrong-with-implicitparams/ |
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| 13:19:27 | <dminuoso> | Also see https://old.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/m8o88a/who_still_uses_readert/grkh17q/ |
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| 13:20:55 | <Rembane> | I think this talk has some really good points about FP vs OOP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyJZzq0v7Z4 |
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| 13:21:27 | <danse-nr3_> | i find that when cases like these occur, it is an hint that those functions could be composed instead of being called inside each other. In this case, consider passing z to g (or having a gWith where z is an argument) |
| 13:22:28 | <albet70> | is that cps? |
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| 13:26:14 | <danse-nr3_> | not as far as i understand |
| 13:26:54 | <Rembane> | Higher order function perhaps? |
| 13:26:57 | <geekosaur> | just higher order, I think |
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| 13:34:50 | <albet70> | how about trans that into cps? possible? |
| 13:35:58 | <geekosaur> | …why |
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| 13:41:39 | <albet70> | curious |
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| 14:07:25 | <danse-nr3_> | does anyone have opinions about serokell's haskell certification program? I would not mind spending some money to learn haskell better, but the way they organised topics by level did not convince me |
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| 14:13:15 | <jade[m]> | never heard of that myself and neither heard it reccomended here |
| 14:13:15 | <ddellacosta> | danse-nr3_: in case you haven't seen it yet, here's a discourse post where folks discuss it, and among others SPJ and the Serokell CEO both make a comment https://discourse.haskell.org/t/has-anyone-done-the-serokell-certification-yet-should-i/6685/34 |
| 14:13:33 | <maerwald> | if that allows you to skip annoying coding interviews yes... otherwise, what for? |
| 14:13:33 | <ddellacosta> | I don't have any opinion on it myself, but I generally stay away from certifications |
| 14:14:21 | <jade[m]> | if you want to learn haskell better there's a bunch of books that the money would be better spent on, imo :) |
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| 14:14:42 | <ddellacosta> | about my feeling...as someone else in a position of hiring commented in that thread, they would see it as just another data point. Given that, I'd rather learn more or work on open source stuff |
| 14:14:49 | <ddellacosta> | and exactly jade[m] |
| 14:15:04 | <ddellacosta> | but hey, it may be helpful for some folks! |
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| 14:19:54 | <danse-nr3_> | i do not like the idea of certifications, reading a book or learning while contributing to a communities sounds much better to me, but i had mixed experience with haskell interviews. Different companies would care about rather different aspects, so i thought that could help. Probably there is a pool of companies that get in touch with who passes those exams |
| 14:21:19 | <danse-nr3_> | thanks ddellacosta for the pointer, i do not hang out on discourse |
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| 14:22:09 | <ddellacosta> | np, and good point about the post-certification company connection, that could be helpful just as a way to get hired |
| 14:22:22 | <ddellacosta> | worth confirming that exists |
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| 14:26:48 | <danse-nr3_> | i would not take a certification because of that anyways ... so yeah i guess certifications are not for me |
| 14:27:54 | <maerwald> | certifications for standards are useful |
| 14:27:58 | <maerwald> | and needed in some industries |
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| 14:30:50 | <danse-nr3_> | probably i am biased because i have mainly been exposed to certifications about private systems granted by the same tool producers (cisco, microsoft...). Anyways, a language like haskell is probably to be handled differently than a standard |
| 14:31:27 | <maerwald> | Haskell is not a standard |
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| 14:35:28 | <Inst_> | when did accelerate come back online? |
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| 14:39:05 | <danse-nr3_> | maerwald, that is why i wrote i could be biased |
| 14:40:05 | <danse-nr3_> | ops nevermind i have read your message wrong. Well haskell is based on the report ... in theory someone could do certifications on that =D |
| 14:40:22 | <maerwald> | in what way? |
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| 14:40:55 | <maerwald> | also, a report is not a standard |
| 14:41:04 | <maerwald> | neither is a spec |
| 14:42:02 | <danse-nr3_> | alright, i do not mean to take the certification anyways |
| 14:44:37 | <Inst_> | danse-nr3: serokell's haskell certification program is a t-shirt |
| 14:45:55 | <danse-nr3_> | unfortunately it is a t-shirt that can get someone a job |
| 14:46:44 | <Inst_> | do employers actually care about serokell haskell certifications yet? |
| 14:47:25 | <Inst_> | the t-shirt comparison is that even if it's useless, it's something you can wear |
| 14:47:32 | <Inst_> | fun to have around |
| 14:47:43 | <Inst_> | whoa, let's see if this works |
| 14:48:01 | <danse-nr3_> | do employers care about how you look like in your linkedin picture? |
| 14:48:18 | <maerwald> | some might |
| 14:49:12 | <danse-nr3_> | Inst_, you have got your answer |
| 14:49:39 | <Inst_> | yeah, i mean, i'd imagine main use case for serokell certification would be non-haskell jobs |
| 14:51:27 | <juri_> | is anyone aware of security trainings specifically targeted toward haskellers? |
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| 14:58:35 | <danse-nr3_> | juri_ (are you tomsmending?) i just read that there is a security task force in the haskell foundation, might check what they are doing if you are interested in that area |
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| 15:01:53 | <juri_> | danse-nr3_: i'm not, and i've already asked there. |
| 15:02:16 | <juri_> | (i'm Julia Longtin, the "crazy haskell 3d printer nerd", FWIW) |
| 15:02:39 | <danse-nr3_> | haha nice to meet you. Sorry tomsmending also had a similar nick |
| 15:02:42 | <merijn> | juri_: What kinda security training are you thinking of? |
| 15:03:46 | <merijn> | because just 'security' is broad to the point of meaninglessness :) |
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| 15:03:56 | <juri_> | honestly, i don't know. we're getting security trainings for the other platform teams (do not dereference null pointers, do not trust client input...), but.. we're a haskell team. i'm not even sure what to advise, other than "be a haskeller" |
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| 15:04:59 | <merijn> | juri_: I mean, a bunch of the same stuff applies (not trusting user input, pointer validity, etc.) and then there's the whole topic of side-channel attacks |
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| 15:05:17 | <juri_> | yep. |
| 15:05:32 | <merijn> | but I don't think specific trainings exist for Haskell |
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| 15:09:49 | <maerwald> | people think too much of cryptography when they hear 'security' |
| 15:09:57 | <maerwald> | it's a niche area |
| 15:10:12 | <mauke> | do not trust input, be careful when assembling structured data as strings (and avoid assembling raw strings whenever possible) |
| 15:10:50 | <maerwald> | attacking crypto algorithms isn't something your regular attacker does... it needs insane amount of resources |
| 15:11:21 | <mauke> | like "https://example.com/stuff?token=" <> apiToken <> "&size=42" is not how you build a URL |
| 15:11:36 | <maerwald> | https://langsec.org/ is a good introduction into the security problem |
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| 15:13:46 | <maerwald> | then there are a couple of approaches on how to formalize security and measure it |
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| 15:14:25 | <maerwald> | the main two I think are: your system as an IO automaton (number of syscalls user input can trigger) and a purely economic measure (which I like more) |
| 15:14:26 | <mauke> | oh, and haskell does nothing to protect you from race conditions |
| 15:14:28 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 15:14:42 | <merijn> | mauke: well, arguably STM does a bit |
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| 15:15:11 | <maerwald> | so a secure system is basically just a system that is expensive to crack... and there are ways to calculate it |
| 15:15:34 | <mauke> | merijn: that's all internal, so mostly boring :-) |
| 15:15:43 | <maerwald> | can't find the thesis, my file server has certificate issues again (lol) |
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| 15:15:47 | <Hecate> | unsure what you'd like to see, mauke |
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| 15:16:36 | <mauke> | I'm not calling for changes. just saying that security trainings aren't pointless just because you're using haskell |
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| 15:20:38 | <Inst_> | tomsmeding: quick question, is accelerate still working on any newer versions of GHC? |
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| 15:30:20 | <ddellacosta> | juri_: neat, I did not know https://github.com/Haskell-Things/ImplicitCAD existed, glad you mentioned you were the "crazy Haskell 3d printing nerd" lol. Been wanting to dip my toes in the 3d printing waters so this is timely |
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| 15:32:17 | <danse-nr3_> | Inst_, i think they have a badge on github, was red last time i checked |
| 15:32:28 | <Inst_> | yeah, i know |
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| 15:32:52 | <Inst_> | just saw it got updated, saw some signs it might still be working |
| 15:32:57 | <Inst_> | the last i heard it was stuck on 9.0.x |
| 15:33:01 | <Inst_> | which is buggy and no one uses |
| 15:33:51 | <Inst_> | i really should just join stack club |
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| 15:48:31 | <juri_> | ddellacosta: It's worse than that. i also have a slicer i'm working ot. :) |
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| 15:54:49 | <jade[m]> | what's the plan for return in monad? I've heard that it'll be deprecated in the near future but I haven't seen any specifics about it |
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| 15:57:04 | <ddellacosta> | juri_: are you talking about https://github.com/Slicer/Slicer? I didn't know this existed either |
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| 15:59:04 | <juri_> | ddellacosta: nope! https://github.com/Haskell-Things/HSlice |
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| 15:59:28 | <picklejuice> | join #archlinux |
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| 15:59:50 | <juri_> | ddellacosta: we talk about all of this stuff in #implicitcad . |
| 15:59:53 | <ddellacosta> | "Wait but...why? Haskell all of the things." haha |
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| 16:00:24 | <ddellacosta> | thanks, I'll check both of these out in more depth |
| 16:00:58 | <juri_> | the slicer is still a work in progress. i give a talk on it in a month at the Chaos Communication Camp. |
| 16:01:18 | <ddellacosta> | nice! |
| 16:02:02 | <ddellacosta> | haven't thought about CCC in a while, that brings me back |
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| 16:13:22 | <yin> | there is a way of asking for a specialized type in ghcior lambdabot, i dont recall. something like `:t join @(->)` ? |
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| 16:13:40 | <yin> | what is it? |
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| 16:19:43 | <geekosaur> | lambdabot doesn't support that, but yahb2 and ghci do (enable TypeApplications) |
| 16:19:56 | <geekosaur> | % :t join @(->) |
| 16:19:56 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:1: error: Variable not in scope: join |
| 16:20:05 | <geekosaur> | o.O |
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| 16:20:12 | <geekosaur> | % import Control.Monad |
| 16:20:12 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
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| 16:20:15 | <geekosaur> | % :t join @(->) |
| 16:20:16 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:1:7: error: ; • Expecting one more argument to ‘(->)’ ; Expected kind ‘* -> *’, but ‘(->)’ has kind ‘* -> * -> *’ ; • In the type ‘(->)’ ; In the expression: join ... |
| 16:20:31 | <geekosaur> | % :t join @((->) _) |
| 16:20:31 | <yahb2> | join @((->) _) :: Monad ((->) w) => (w -> (w -> a)) -> w -> a |
| 16:21:29 | <yin> | oh that was it! thanks |
| 16:22:39 | <yin> | funny how it writes (w -> (w -> a)) |
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| 17:50:11 | <tomsmeding> | @tell Inst_ being worked on, I believe the intent was to make a release that works on some newer ghcs (though not the newest yet) soon |
| 17:50:12 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 17:52:19 | <tomsmeding> | @tell danse-nr3_ my nick is in the pastebin and logs urls in the channel topic ;) |
| 17:52:19 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 19:03:22 | ncf | recently went on a hike through the Cairngorms and just learned that the range used to be called Am Monadh Ruadh :) |
| 19:04:01 | <jade[m]> | epic category theory reference |
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| 19:05:22 | <ncf> | monic, rather |
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| 19:07:11 | <mauke> | CCC? epic category theory reference |
| 19:10:19 | <jade[m]> | whenever I hear CCC, I think of jan misalis video |
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| 21:39:36 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | in haskell binaries (e.g. compiled by ghc) are the types set rigidly at compile time or can they change at runtime? (presumably this would be entangled with the question of whether the program can change at runtime..?) |
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| 21:40:44 | <geekosaur> | types don't even exist at runtime |
| 21:40:55 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | oh wow ok |
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| 21:41:43 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ... so the runtime doesn't know what types it is working with (unless that becomes specifically included in the binary, like a printType function or something) |
| 21:41:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ? |
| 21:42:04 | <Hecate> | segfaultfizzbuzz: that's called "type erasure" if you want to look this up |
| 21:42:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | is the type erasure a property of the haskell language or of ghc? |
| 21:42:44 | <geekosaur> | correct. there's limited RTTI via Data.Typeable, and the garbage collector knows the "shape" of values (specifically, which words in a value represent pointers it must follow) |
| 21:42:50 | <Hecate> | you know what, I have no idea if it's in the report, but usually except for debugging purposes, types don't make it to binary code |
| 21:43:31 | <geekosaur> | this is generally true of compiled code, you only get type information at runtime if there is an RTTI mechanism |
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| 21:43:33 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | so memory addresses are tagged in some way, basically? |
| 21:43:39 | <Hecate> | yup |
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| 21:44:49 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | interesting,... is there a simple reason for the type information to be discarded? |
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| 21:44:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | seems like it would be incredibly important for testing, profiling, etc |
| 21:45:22 | <geekosaur> | it's usually not needed. and no, profiling doesn't need it either, the tag is enough |
| 21:45:50 | <geekosaur> | testing code has the types during typechecking when it needs it |
| 21:46:01 | <Hecate> | usually you can get away with much more targeted information in terms of memory representation |
| 21:46:09 | <Hecate> | no need for the whole user-defined type |
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| 21:46:49 | <geekosaur> | note that libraries *do* have type information, which for ghc is in .hi files; it just doesn't make it into the final binary |
| 21:47:37 | <darkling> | For compiled languages, by the time the compiler's produced machine instructions to push the bits around, the type is largely irrelevant. |
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| 21:52:55 | <ski> | segfaultfizzbuzz : "is the type erasure a property of the haskell language or of ghc?" -- a property of the implementation, but the language is designed in such a way so as to mostly painlessly support such implementations that want to do type erasure (although, i think you'd say the GC still knows some low-level type aspects (most specifically whether something's an address or not)) |
| 21:54:37 | <ski> | (also note that this is related to why we don't consider whether a value is a `Just' or a `Nothing', or a `Left' or a `Right', &c. a "type" (while some dynamically typed languages definitely would consider those "types")) |
| 21:55:58 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | doesn't make sense, i can pattern match on Just a | Nothing,... |
| 21:56:33 | <ski> | (e.g. if you were making a tree data srtucture in say Scheme, with a few different kind of nodes, you'd probably declare a record type for each kind of node, and "check runtime type" to determine which kind of node you're holding in your hand) |
| 21:56:51 | <ski> | segfaultfizzbuzz : exactly. so those are not types (`Maybe' is a type) |
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| 21:59:05 | <ski> | types being erasable means that we get the property of parametricity, where if an operation is polymorphic in some type variable, then it can't know at run-time which actual type was used in place of that type variable, and so it can't inspect values having that type variable as its type, it can only pass (references/addresses/pointers to, generally speaking) such values around (dropping the value, |
| 21:59:11 | <ski> | duplicating it, passing it to some particular destination, like result value, or as argument in a call, or inside a data structure) |
| 22:00:19 | <ski> | so, if you see `mystery :: Int -> [a] -> [a]' in a library, you *know* that its behaviour can't depend on the actual type you use for `a', nor can it depend on the actual values of that type that you pass in the list. and the only way for it to get `a' values is from that list, so all elements in the result list must come from the argument list |
| 22:01:31 | <ski> | if you see `someHOF :: (a -> Maybe a) -> (a -> a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]', you know that the only way the function can inspect the list elements, is *via* those two callback functions (which it can only call on elements of the input list) |
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| 22:05:00 | <ski> | if you want to be able to do something, depending on the type, you must explicitly opt-in to that, by adding a `Typeable' constraint, like `foo :: Typeable a => [a] -> [a]' can check what type `a' the caller picked, and if it knows that type, it can look inside the input elements, and can also construct unrelated output elements |
| 22:05:21 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | wow this seems very important,... but i am doing a double take, if the function is "generic" in my neanderthalic vocabulary, then it does not work with the values of that generic parameter? the function signature must specialize in order to introspect? |
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| 22:06:04 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that fact makes haskell code a lot more readable, ha |
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| 22:08:00 | <ski> | it can "handle" the values, by passing them around. but it can't look inside them, nor conjure up new values of that type from scratch (barring a few special cases like `error :: String -> a',`(let x = x in x) :: a') |
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| 22:08:33 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | right, introspect, that's like totally awesome |
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| 22:11:00 | <ski> | anyway, as you can imagine, this property, "parametricity", can be quite handy, at times, when trying to figure out what some random library function *can't* do, in order to better understand code, or in order to be able to refactor it without changing observable behaviour (e.g. changing `map f (mystery n (map g xs))' to `map f (map g (mystery n xs))' so that you can further refactor it to `map (f . g) |
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| 22:11:06 | <ski> | (mystery n xs)' merging two traversals into a single one) |
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| 22:11:31 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | yeah i love it, totally changes the readability |
| 22:11:44 | <ski> | not every language which has generics / parametric polymorphism has this "parametricity" property. e.g. Java doesn't, because there is `instanceof' and downcasts |
| 22:14:30 | <ski> | parametricity tends to help better understanding the possible behaviour of (polymorphic) higher-order functions (like `someHOF' above), in that you know that the *only* `a' values it passes to the callbacks (apart from the special exceptions for "bottom" elements (aborting computation, infinite loop) that i mentioned) comes in some way from the inputs you pass to the HOF (the input list, here), and also that |
| 22:14:36 | <ski> | that's the *only* way the HOF has of inspecting (and possibly producing more) of those `a' values |
| 22:15:07 | <ski> | @free mystery :: Int -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:15:07 | <lambdabot> | $map f . mystery x = mystery x . $map f |
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| 22:15:54 | <ski> | that law (which we can claim, solely by knowing the *type* of `mystery') is what i used above, to refactor `mystery n (map g xs)' to `map g (mystery n xs)' |
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| 22:16:30 | <ski> | (there's a paper, by wadler, about "free theorems", which is about this) |
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| 22:18:23 | <ski> | "Theorems for free!" by Philip Wadler in 1989-09 at <https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/topics/parametricity.html#free> |
| 22:18:27 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i don't know $map |
| 22:18:36 | <hpc> | it's just @free's way of saying map |
| 22:18:44 | <hpc> | @free map :: x -> y -> z |
| 22:18:45 | <lambdabot> | h . map x = map (f x) . g |
| 22:18:54 | <hpc> | so you don't get confused if you do ^ that |
| 22:18:54 | <int-e> | the natural fmap |
| 22:18:57 | <ski> | that's just the notation used by that `free' command, to distinguish from any random function that might be named `map' |
| 22:19:10 | <ski> | @free map :: Int -> [a] -> [a] |
| 22:19:10 | <lambdabot> | $map f . map x = map x . $map f |
| 22:19:30 | <ski> | @free catMaybes :: [Maybe a] -> [a] |
| 22:19:30 | <lambdabot> | $map f . catMaybes = catMaybes . $map ($map_Maybe f) |
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| 22:20:02 | <ski> | `$map' is for `[]' (lists), `$map_F' is for general type constructors (like `Maybe') |
| 22:20:32 | <ski> | @free swap :: (a,b) -> (b,a) |
| 22:20:32 | <lambdabot> | $map_Pair g f . swap = swap . $map_Pair f g |
| 22:22:03 | <ski> | that's assuming a (bifunctor) `bimap :: (a0 -> a1) -> (b0 -> b1) -> ((a0,b0) -> (a1,b1))' (which it called `$map_Pair' above) (or `bimap :: Bifunctor t => (a0 -> a1) -> (b0 -> b1) -> (t a0 b0 -> t a1 b1)' in general) |
| 22:22:23 | <ski> | @free mirror :: Either a b -> Either b a |
| 22:22:23 | <lambdabot> | $map_Either g f . mirror = mirror . $map_Either f g |
| 22:22:34 | <ski> | @free length :: [a] -> Int |
| 22:22:35 | <lambdabot> | length = length . $map f |
| 22:25:33 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | @free 1 + 1 |
| 22:25:33 | <lambdabot> | Try `free <ident>` or `free <ident> :: <type>` |
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| 22:25:52 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ok so free is computing something on the command you are providing it? |
| 22:26:48 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i don't think i have ever typed something like what you have provided into ghci and gotten a response like what @free is providing, looks like you are saying "show me the type of this" or some similar thing...? |
| 22:27:16 | <ski> | it's computing the law, from the shape of the type signature of the polymorphim operation you're suggesting to it (it doesn't look up in any library whether there's actually an operation of that type) |
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| 22:28:03 | <ski> | `free' is a lambdabot plugin. iirc, it may be possibly to use from the interactor, though. (istr you can use lambdabot from the interactor. never tried, though) |
| 22:28:36 | <geekosaur> | I think goa's bitrotted |
| 22:28:44 | <geekosaur> | @hackage goa |
| 22:28:44 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/goa |
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| 22:29:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | "the law" is new to me |
| 22:29:49 | segfaultfizzbuzz | makes a gangsta symbol and pulls pants down to ankles |
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| 22:31:04 | <ski> | "it's computing the law" -- the "free law" (in the sense that you get it "for free", from just knowing the type of the operation, thanks to the parametricity property of Haskell's generics / parametric polymorphism) |
| 22:31:19 | <ski> | a few other papers which might be interesting to check out : |
| 22:31:24 | <ski> | @where polymorphic-type-inference |
| 22:31:25 | <lambdabot> | "Polymorphic Type Inference" by Michael I. Schwartzbach in 1995-03 at <https://cs.au.dk/~mis/typeinf.p(s|df)>,<http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.57.1493> |
| 22:31:28 | <ski> | @where on-understanding |
| 22:31:28 | <lambdabot> | "On Understanding Types, Data Abstraction, and Polymorphism" by Luca Cardelli,Peter Wegner in 1985-12 at <http://lucacardelli.name/Papers/OnUnderstanding.A4.pdf> |
| 22:31:31 | <ski> | @where on-understanding-revisited |
| 22:31:31 | <lambdabot> | "On Understanding Data Abstraction, Revisited" by William R. Cook in 2009-10 at <http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/Drafts/2009/essay.pdf> |
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| 22:32:26 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | tbh when i look at papers i am lucky to understand anything more than a couple of paragraphs |
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| 22:33:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | quite often i hit something like those type inference diagrams and i get buffer overflow from the definitions |
| 22:33:20 | <ski> | some authors are better at writing accessibly, than others |
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| 22:33:30 | <ski> | Wadler's usually pretty great |
| 22:34:16 | <ski> | also, i'd suggest the Schwartzbach paper above as an intro to type systems and polymorphism. it explains quite a bit explicitly that most other papers on type systems takes for granted |
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| 22:35:41 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | i have a simpler question which might be better and on point (??): i came across ben lynn's excellent macguyver talk, i think i understood and retained more than half of it, and it got me wondering whether there is such thing as a typed combinator? |
| 22:36:07 | <ski> | hm, i'm not familiar with that talk (link ?) |
| 22:36:16 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kMvXXGXaws&list=PLOvRW_utVPVmzDGGOJ2amgVBK168Vemke&index=7 |
| 22:36:20 | <ski> | what is meant by "combinator", in this context ? |
| 22:37:01 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | you can skip to ten minutes into the video to cut to the most important part i think,... basically he says S &K combinators taken together are turing complete |
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| 22:38:24 | <ski> | oh, combinatory logic |
| 22:38:52 | <ski> | sure, you can type those combinators, like |
| 22:39:13 | <ski> | S : (a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> c) |
| 22:39:21 | <ski> | K : a -> b -> a |
| 22:39:27 | <ski> | I : a -> a |
| 22:40:40 | <ski> | also other combinators, like |
| 22:40:51 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ...are the results of reduction of SK evaluation order dependent? no right? |
| 22:40:57 | <ski> | B : (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> c) |
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| 22:41:22 | <ski> | C : (a -> b -> c) -> (b -> a -> c) |
| 22:41:32 | <ski> | W : (a -> a -> b) -> (a -> b) |
| 22:44:05 | <ski> | segfaultfizzbuzz : depends on whether you have types or not (simplifying slightly). with no types, you can easily make an infinite loop, and then whether you go into it or ignore it can depend on which evaluation order you use. with a simple type system (and no recursion, and no explicit combinator for encoding it either), everything terminates, and so you always get to an answer, and then what answer you |
| 22:44:11 | <ski> | get doesn't depend on which path (evaluation order) you take to get there (this is "confluence") |
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| 22:46:45 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | interesting |
| 22:47:20 | <ski> | you might perhaps also enjoy reading |
| 22:47:23 | <ski> | @where mockingbird |
| 22:47:23 | <lambdabot> | "To mock a mockingbird : and other logic puzzles including an amazing adventure in combinatory logic" by R. M. Smullyan, "To Dissect a Mockingbird: A Graphical Notation for the Lambda Calculus with |
| 22:47:24 | <lambdabot> | Animated Reduction" at <http://dkeenan.com/Lambda/> by David C. Keenan. Also see `smullyan' |
| 22:47:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | fine so i could selectively exclude infinite recursion (e.g. the evaluator can suspend at will) then it is evaluation order independent? |
| 22:47:43 | <ski> | it talks about the combinators, from a playful bird analogy |
| 22:48:40 | <ski> | suspend, how ? |
| 22:48:50 | <zero> | oooh do i hear chirping? |
| 22:48:52 | <probie> | Is confluence tied to termination? I was taught that it's the "diamond property" of a rewrite system (i.e if B and C can be reached from A by some rewrites, then there is a D which is reachable from both B and C) |
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| 22:49:37 | <ski> | if you use one evaluation order, then the computation might terminate quickly, but if you use another, it might take a long time, and so you might get a time-out .. doesn't sound like independent of evaluation order (depending on how you define that, i guess) |
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| 22:51:00 | <ski> | probie : not directly. i was remarking that if you have termination, then because you also have confluence, you get to the same result, regardless of which path you take. but if you only have confluence, but not termination, then some evaluations orders may terminate (necessarily with the same result), while others can diverge |
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| 22:51:31 | <ski> | (and if you only have termination, but not confluence, then you have a non-deterministic computation, you might end up with different end results, depending on which evaluation order you use) |
| 22:53:24 | <ski> | (hm, seems "Programming with Visual Expressions" by Wayne Citrin,Richard Hall,Benjamin Zorn at <https://web.archive.org/web/20220607041104/http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~haarslev/vl95www/html-papers/citrin/citrin.html> expired, so that you need to access it via the Web Archive) |
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| 22:54:57 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | oh interesting, it becomes nondeterministic if it is nonterminating? |
| 22:55:05 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | that's very interesting |
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| 22:55:33 | <ski> | (also, i don't believe i've seen "lambda-calculus-visualizations: Catalog of visual lambda calculi" <https://github.com/prathyvsh/lambda-calculus-visualizations> before, although i've seen some of the (other) entries, like "Lambda Diagrams","Alligator Eggs") |
| 22:56:05 | <ski> | segfaultfizzbuzz : `const () (fix id)' |
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| 22:56:42 | <hpc> | segfaultfizzbuzz: it's a pretty intuitive result, even if you think in terms of a language like C |
| 22:56:51 | <hpc> | consider short-circuiting and/or |
| 22:56:55 | <ski> | (nondeterministic, up to choosing the evaluation order, that is. if you've picked an evaluation order, and it doesn't involve making arbitrary choices, then within that evaluation order, it'd still be deterministic) |
| 22:57:09 | <hpc> | 0 || loop() |
| 22:57:10 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | short circuiting... a program? lol you folks are on another level ;-) |
| 22:57:43 | <hpc> | a program and a function are basically the same thing - try writing a bash script without that idea in mind sometime :D |
| 22:57:45 | <ski> | `y != 0 && foo(x / y)' |
| 22:58:09 | <hpc> | but yeah, with short-circuiting logic, there's no reason why it has to be left-to-right |
| 22:58:12 | <sm> | @where+ learnxinyminutes https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/haskell |
| 22:58:12 | <lambdabot> | Done. |
| 22:58:47 | <hpc> | so you have confluence, of a sort |
| 22:59:00 | <hpc> | but you don't have termination, because loop() is possible to write at all |
| 22:59:17 | <hpc> | so depending on the evaluation order, you get either 0 or you don't terminate |
| 22:59:52 | <ski> | hm .. very large letters on that page .. i can only see 51 width at a time, without scrolling sideways |
| 23:01:20 | <ski> | "there's no reason why it has to be left-to-right" -- well, with dependent conjunction and implication, there could be, i guess |
| 23:02:34 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | this is a bit off topic but i have been curious about "smart" evaluation rather than always left to right or always right to left |
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| 23:02:51 | <ski> | `(x : sigma) /\ tau', is well-formed (type-correct), when `sigma' is, and when `tau' is (where `x' of type `sigma') is in scope in `tau'. and similarly for the dependent implication `(x : sigma) -> tau' |
| 23:02:57 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | but that concept really only makes sense if your computation is not order dependent,... |
| 23:03:19 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | or if you can accept nondeterminism (maybe nondeterminism is inevitable and you should plan to accomodate it...?) |
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| 23:04:20 | <ski> | the special cases `(_ : sigma) /\ tau' and `(_ : sigma) -> tau' where `x' is not used in `tau', could still have the well-formedness (including well-typedness) of `tau' depending on `sigma' being *inhabited* (from a logical perspective : depending on `sigma' holding / being the case) |
| 23:05:44 | <ski> | so, you can argue that `x =/= 0 /\ f(1/x) > 0' is well-formed, even though `1/x' is not defined when `x' is zero, because you're allowed to assume, when checking the well-formedness of the right conjunct, that the left conjunct is *true* ! |
| 23:06:53 | <ski> | (this is an example of a "presupposition". the formula `f(1/x)' being wellformed presupposes that `x' is non-zero. this presupposition is discharged by the left conjunct in this conjunction, so that it's no longer a presupposition (/ dependency) of the whole conjunction) |
| 23:07:16 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | interesting |
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| 23:08:28 | zero | thinks of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Whenever |
| 23:09:01 | segfaultfizzbuzz | thinks of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weRHyjj34ZE |
| 23:11:14 | <ski> | (a more mundane example would be "Have you stopped beating your wife yet ?" (it's a traditiona one, on this topic) -- a presupposition of this question is "You did beat your wife at some point.". if that presupposition is false, then you can (truthfully) answer neither "yes" nor "no". strictly speaking, the question is malformed, "type incorrect", "inadmissible", doesn't make sense. you could answer "mu" |
| 23:11:20 | <ski> | (see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)>,<http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/mu.html>), though, to "unask" the question) |
| 23:11:35 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | ay maybe we could use a different example |
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| 23:12:24 | segfaultfizzbuzz | thinks of https://chrono.fandom.com/wiki/Nu |
| 23:12:26 | <ski> | (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definite_description> is also related to this) |
| 23:12:52 | <ski> | heh, i remember those, segfaultfizzbuzz :p |
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| 23:13:38 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | haha a programming language with no sense of urgency lol |
| 23:13:59 | <segfaultfizzbuzz> | wait wow what, no control flow or variables? wow |
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