Logs on 2023-07-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:51:27 | <arahael_> | I'm trying to understand the Reader monad, but what confuses me is the 'local' function. Doesn't local effectively make it into a sort of simpler state monad instead? |
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| 00:55:58 | <c_wraith> | arahael_: not really. local is a scoped change to the state. State makes non-scoped changes. Like if you call `modify (+1)', everything after that sees the change. With `local (+1) m', only the action `m' sees the changed value |
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| 01:01:29 | <arahael_> | c_wraith: Oooh, nice. |
| 01:03:17 | <c_wraith> | In some sense, you want State precisely when you want the changes to propagate non-locally |
| 01:04:08 | <arahael_> | Yeah, makes sense, I'm not fully clear as to why state uses `s -> (a, s)`, couldn't it just be `s -> s` like the Reader monad? Like, put would replace the state, and get just gets teh state? |
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| 01:05:29 | <c_wraith> | Hmm. This isn't completely the easiest thing to justify without spending some time thinking about it. |
| 01:06:01 | <c_wraith> | It mostly comes down to wanting to be able to calculate some value alongside the state that's being passed along |
| 01:06:03 | <arahael_> | Perhaps I should try making a state monad using the reader monad and see what doesn't work well with it. |
| 01:06:11 | <arahael_> | c_wraith: Hmm? |
| 01:06:21 | <arahael_> | Oooh... That makes sense, actually... |
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| 01:06:42 | <c_wraith> | Like if you have a `State Int String' action.. You need to be able to communicate modifications to the Int as well as the generated String |
| 01:06:42 | <arahael_> | So you can define little calculation routines that return a value, and still allow composing them. |
| 01:07:02 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 01:07:14 | <arahael_> | Hmm, but Reader also has a value result, effectively. |
| 01:07:30 | <arahael_> | (Ie, `Reader Int String`) |
| 01:07:55 | <c_wraith> | True. And that's why `Reader r a' is a wrapper around `r -> a' |
| 01:09:09 | <c_wraith> | But I think you're right - just use them a bit and see what they're good at |
| 01:09:34 | <c_wraith> | (and not good at) |
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| 01:17:40 | <probie> | The data types `Reader s (a, s)` and `State s a` are isomorphic |
| 01:19:58 | <arahael_> | probie: I'm interpreting that to mean 'equivalent', but they're still different because why would you have distinctions between State and Reader otherwise? |
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| 01:20:54 | <arahael_> | I just cut&pasted my State monad implementation, and replaced it as naively as possible with the Reader implementation. I'm noticing the most significant difference is in the implementation of the Applicative `liftA2` function where it's reusing the same state all the time instead of threading the new, modified state through. |
| 01:21:05 | <arahael_> | (Becuase that state is not modified in Reader) |
| 01:21:32 | <arahael_> | So that makes sense, actually. |
| 01:22:00 | <probie> | arahael_: I mean that there's a function from `Reader s (a, s) -> State s a`, and a function from `State s a -> Reader s (a, s)`, and that when these two functions are composed in either order we get `id` |
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| 01:24:40 | <arahael_> | probie: Ah, yes, that makes sense too but the behaviour of those monads are somehow slightly different and that was what I was trying to figure out before my little experiment writing State in terms of Reader, where I learnt that liftA2 has the most significant impact. |
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| 02:57:03 | <arahael_> | I'm reading about Fix, and see this expression: data Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f)); but if the fix point of a function is "f x = x", how did we end up with "f x = f (x (f x))"? |
| 02:57:56 | <mauke> | first you've got to distinguish between data constructors and type constructors, even if they have the same name |
| 02:58:17 | <mauke> | data Fix f = MkFix (f (Fix f)) |
| 02:58:41 | <mauke> | which is more like fix f = f (fix f) |
| 02:59:31 | <mauke> | second, f x = x is not a definition of fix; it's a definition of id |
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| 03:03:54 | <arahael_> | mauke: The wikibooks I'm reading states that: A fixed point of a function f is a value a such that f a == a. |
| 03:04:44 | <mauke> | correct |
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| 03:05:26 | <mauke> | but 'fix' is a function for computing the fixed point of another function, f |
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| 03:05:55 | <mauke> | (and by "the fixed point" I mean the least defined of all fixed points of f) |
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| 03:07:33 | <mauke> | and the implementation of 'fix' in haskell is (morally equivalent to): fix f = f (fix f) |
| 03:07:37 | <arahael_> | Yeah ,I understand how there are different fixpoints depending on the function we're talking about, though I don't understand what it means by "least defined". (Because that wikibooks article states that 'bottom' is the least defined fixpoint of the example function, but it's the *only* one in that example... ANyway, I'm goimg to ask about that later. |
| 03:08:08 | <mauke> | well, consider a function like id x = x |
| 03:08:15 | <mauke> | every single value is a fixed point of id |
| 03:08:24 | <arahael_> | Indeed. So you want the "least defined" one. |
| 03:08:42 | <mauke> | yes, which is 'undefined' (a.k.a. bottom) |
| 03:09:14 | <arahael_> | oooh, so you'd still say that the fix point of that is bottom. But... Isn't that like the fix point of almost any function? |
| 03:09:23 | <mauke> | correct |
| 03:09:30 | <arahael_> | So that seems... Useless? |
| 03:09:52 | <mauke> | no, consider f = (1 :) |
| 03:09:57 | <mauke> | the function that prepends 1 to a list |
| 03:10:09 | <mauke> | bottom is not a fixed point of f |
| 03:10:32 | <mauke> | (at least in Haskell it isn't because Haskell is lazy) |
| 03:11:21 | <mauke> | > fix (1 :) |
| 03:11:22 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1... |
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| 03:12:47 | <arahael_> | Ok, bottom is not actually always a fix point, so that sounds much more useful then. But still, how do you get from "need to find the point where f = f x" to "fix f = f ( fix f )"? |
| 03:12:47 | <mauke> | but even in non-lazy settings you can get interesting fixed points because of higher-order functions |
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| 03:14:39 | <mauke> | I don't remember how to do this the right way |
| 03:14:55 | <mauke> | but in Haskell you can literally say: fix f = x where x = f x |
| 03:15:03 | <mauke> | which is pretty much the definition of a fixed point |
| 03:16:19 | <arahael_> | Hmm, so I guess we expand that out to: fix f = f (f x) where x = f x? And then... |
| 03:16:28 | <mauke> | and from there you can do creative substitutions, like fix f = f x where x = f x |
| 03:16:59 | <mauke> | and then the first x gets replaced by 'fix f' from the first equation? something like that |
| 03:17:01 | <arahael_> | Ah, and of course, since x is the same definition, so you back-substituate that 'fix f = f x' into that. |
| 03:17:06 | <arahael_> | Yeah, ok, so that works. |
| 03:18:01 | <arahael_> | So we get fix f = f (fix f), which is exactly the same as: data Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f)); but at the type level. |
| 03:18:35 | <mauke> | we could start by saying type Fix f = f (Fix f), but that doesn't work because type aliases cannot be recursive |
| 03:18:54 | <mauke> | so we have to use newtype or data, which in turn requires adding a data constructor to the RHS |
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| 03:19:05 | <arahael_> | It's nice when these things are so simple, but... Somehow... I just don't find myself thinking that way, so I don't seem to find myself making the leap of "fix f = x where x = f x" |
| 03:20:36 | <arahael_> | Oh, yeah, speakingof those data constructors, I often interpret Fix f = MkFix f (MkFix f); but that's not correct, it's going to be: Fix f = MkFix (Fix f) |
| 03:21:01 | <arahael_> | Yeah, that makes sense. |
| 03:21:18 | <arahael_> | Because I can't actually specify specific constructors in the type declaration like that, so has to be the latter example. |
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| 03:23:02 | <arahael_> | Thanks - I gotta head out, but thanks for helping me understand fix. :D At least this aspect of it! |
| 03:23:42 | <mauke> | you're welcome :-) |
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| 10:22:06 | <zincy> | Since property based testing is non-deterministic does that pose a problem for CI? People don't like flakey tests so how should I respond if someone complains PBTs are flakey. I don't know where to stand on this. |
| 10:22:30 | <zincy> | Like is there good flakey and bad flakey ;) |
| 10:23:09 | <geekosaur> | any failure is a failure, no? |
| 10:23:23 | <zincy> | Yes :) |
| 10:23:47 | <geekosaur> | either you have not constrained your valid inputs enough for testing, or you have failing cases that shouldn't be failing |
| 10:24:32 | <zincy> | Thanks |
| 10:25:23 | <zincy> | So randomness over inputs we care about is fine even in a unit test? |
| 10:25:32 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 10:25:41 | <zincy> | Maybe people get confused about determinism vs random |
| 10:25:43 | <zincy> | I know I do |
| 10:26:14 | <zincy> | Test results you can't reliably reproduce are always a problem but thats why we have seeds |
| 10:27:20 | <geekosaur> | decent property based testers will tell you what inputs failed, so you should be able to reproduce immediately |
| 10:27:33 | <geekosaur> | qc definitely does this |
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| 10:35:55 | <geekosaur> | it's not randomness vs. nondeterminism, btw. the randomness is hidden inside the test library; it doesn't really matter how it does its job as long as it does it. it could try sequential values, conceivably (although this wouldn't work so well for Doubles) |
| 10:36:48 | <geekosaur> | you could think of this as being similar to bisecting vs. sequential search |
| 10:37:19 | <geekosaur> | there is research about this although I'm not remembering the proper term for it |
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| 10:46:09 | <[exa]> | zincy: I always explained this as follow: 1] minimal property tests passing imply that it's at least as tested as minimal unit tests passing 2] anyone can always bump up the N of generated property tests to gain more confidence or find more weirdness |
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| 13:27:21 | <jabuxas> | i'm receiving this error when running stack build in a fresh void musl vm https://bpa.st/4M7A |
| 13:29:52 | <maerwald> | jabuxas: I think you might have better luck with ghcup and cabal and then overwriting the distro detection like so: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#overriding-distro-detection |
| 13:29:59 | <maerwald> | and setting it to Alpine linux |
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| 13:30:44 | <maerwald> | e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/ecdUiTai |
| 13:31:33 | <jabuxas> | i'll give that a try, ghcup was failing before so i had given up on it, maybe that was the solution |
| 13:31:49 | <maerwald> | yes probably... but only part of the installation has failed |
| 13:31:55 | <maerwald> | the ghcup binary installation always suceeds |
| 13:32:13 | <maerwald> | then you change the config and do the installations yourself |
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| 13:33:51 | <maerwald> | or sec |
| 13:34:42 | <maerwald> | curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | BOOTSTRAP_HASKELL_MINIMAL=1 sh |
| 13:34:44 | <maerwald> | this will do |
| 13:34:54 | <maerwald> | it will skip ghc and cabal installation |
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| 13:39:14 | <maerwald> | and then you do: ghcup config set platform-override '{ "arch": "A_64", "platform": { "contents": "Alpine", "tag": "Linux" }, "version": "3.17" }' |
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| 13:42:33 | <jabuxas> | yeah, now ghcup install ghc didn't fail on install |
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| 13:46:24 | <maerwald> | jabuxas: documented here now https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#void-linux |
| 13:47:58 | <jabuxas> | you did that now? amazing |
| 13:48:00 | <jabuxas> | ty a lot for the help |
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| 13:50:29 | <maerwald> | some newer GHCs may be wonky, because some alpine bindist sare fully static and some are not |
| 13:50:36 | <maerwald> | it's a known issue and not fully resolved |
| 13:50:43 | <maerwald> | fully static bindists can cause issues with cabal |
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| 19:07:18 | <zero> | what's the reasoning behind an implicit prelude? |
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| 19:08:02 | <geekosaur> | various syntactic constructs expand to functions from it, for one |
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| 19:23:23 | <[exa]> | zero: also typing 'import Prelude' all over again 1000 times a day gets pretty boring |
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| 19:25:13 | <Rembane> | zero: You can compare to what Purescript code looks like. Purescript does not have implicit prelude. You can also use the language extension NoImplicitPrelude to get a feel for it in Haskell. |
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| 19:29:48 | <probie> | Personally, I don't think typing `import Prelude` over and over again 1000 times is that much of an impediment in practice. It's only recently I've stopped typing out large numbers of LANGUAGE pragmas |
| 19:31:14 | <probie> | It's just awkward to have a language construct like `if`, but not have the only type that can be used with it in scope (also, string literals, list literals and tuples are implicitly brought in because of syntax support) |
| 19:31:55 | <geekosaur> | or case |
| 19:31:56 | <geekosaur> | or do |
| 19:32:04 | <geekosaur> | or list comprehensions |
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| 19:33:19 | <probie> | What about case needs the prelude? |
| 19:33:38 | <geekosaur> | guards need `Bool` |
| 19:37:20 | <probie> | "need" is a strong word. They're hindered without `Bool`, but you can still do something like `data B = F | T; and :: B -> B -> B; and p q | T <- p, T <- q = T; and p q | T <- T = F` |
| 19:37:46 | <probie> | but point taken |
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| 19:38:17 | <geekosaur> | H98 and earlier, which is where this came from, didn't have that construct |
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| 19:39:50 | <mauke> | every numeric literal is a method call |
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| 19:44:31 | <probie> | I tried to do advent of code last year without the Prelude (with two functions and one type that did depend on the prelude - my IO type and read/write a `List U8` from stdin/stdout) |
| 19:44:47 | <probie> | It turns out that code is much harder to read without numeric literals |
| 19:44:51 | <probie> | or string literals |
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| 19:46:16 | <probie> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/jqZLZzNg for a no-context snippet |
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| 19:47:06 | <jade[m]> | jesus |
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| 19:56:11 | <probie> | You haven't lived until you've written `main = write (c_H :< c_e :< c_l :< c_l :< c_o :< c_space :< c_w :< c_o :< c_r :< c_l :< c_d :< c_nl :< Nil)` :p |
| 19:56:28 | <mauke> | what, no lazy list based IO? |
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| 20:00:42 | <jade[m]> | is there some docs/blogpost/writeup about how the lazy list IO worked? |
| 20:02:09 | <mauke> | main :: [Response] -> [Request] |
| 20:03:13 | <probie> | :t interact |
| 20:03:13 | <jade[m]> | what are the constructors of each of those? |
| 20:03:14 | <lambdabot> | (String -> String) -> IO () |
| 20:04:23 | <probie> | main = interact (print . sum . (read :: String -> Integer) . lines) -- Sum a list of integers from stdin, provided one per line |
| 20:04:50 | <probie> | Sorry, that should be `main = interact (print . sum . map (read :: String -> Integer) . lines)` |
| 20:04:58 | <mauke> | I don't know, but I assume something like putStr :: String -> Request and getLine :: Request existed |
| 20:05:01 | <jade[m]> | yep, interact is neat |
| 20:06:06 | <jade[m]> | probie: did you mean `map read` btw? |
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| 20:06:40 | <probie> | Did the correction not send, or send delayed? |
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| 20:17:40 | <mauke> | jade[m]: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4xRhYgua |
| 20:18:52 | <jade[m]> | interesting, thanks |
| 20:19:03 | <mauke> | this is from Haskell 1.2 |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-07-16.