Logs on 2023-07-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:52:27 | <feetwind> | is there any good way to automatically populate exposed-modules in a "vanilla" (not haskell.nix) nix flake setup? |
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| 02:38:00 | <jackdk> | You mean in the `.cabal` file? I don't see how nix would influence that. `cabal-fmt` supports a magic comment to do this: https://github.com/phadej/cabal-fmt/blob/8fb86f4ae701e54eb28fa300230f98f88091ebc4/cabal-fmt.cabal#L62 |
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| 02:38:45 | <jackdk> | You could use something like https://github.com/cachix/pre-commit-hooks.nix to turn on cabal-fmt in a precommit hook, if you like. |
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| 08:22:18 | <aforemny> | hi who could i contact to approve my gitlab.haskell.org account? |
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| 08:30:13 | <probie> | aforemny: Probably best to ping chreekat in #ghc |
| 08:30:51 | <aforemny> | probie: thanks! |
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| 08:33:00 | <arahael_> | ghc doesn't yet have bindists for the wasm or js output, does it? |
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| 08:55:23 | <comerijn> | arahael_: Don't think so? I think that's going mainline in 9.8, no? |
| 08:55:33 | <comerijn> | Or were they already in 9.6...I forget |
| 08:56:11 | <arahael_> | comerijn: Ah, very nice, yeah I have a feeling it's already in 9.6, but not in bindists, so you have to build it yourself and all that. |
| 08:56:24 | <arahael_> | I'm a sucker for convenience, as you probably know already. ;) |
| 08:56:38 | <Hecate> | arahael_: did you see the discourse post about it? |
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| 08:56:44 | <arahael_> | I did not! |
| 08:57:59 | <Hecate> | arahael_: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/ann-ghcup-0-1-19-5-release-candidate-ghc-js-cross-support/6995 |
| 08:58:06 | <Hecate> | JS & WASM instructions inside |
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| 08:58:44 | <arahael_> | Oooh, very nice! Thanks for that Hecate! |
| 08:58:54 | <Hecate> | yer welcome |
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| 09:02:46 | <comerijn> | Whoo, report bug, go on vacation, come back, bug fixed. Now I just need to wait longer than my patience allows for it to actually hit release :p |
| 09:03:15 | <int-e> | time for another vacation? |
| 09:03:17 | <arahael_> | Yeah, wasm and js stuff is exciting. |
| 09:03:44 | <comerijn> | int-e: It's always time for vacation :p |
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| 10:14:18 | <Guest309304> | In the page: https://www.yesodweb.com/book/persistent |
| 10:14:24 | <Guest309304> | "..... Haskell specific data stores that allow one to easily store any strongly typed ....." |
| 10:14:31 | <Guest309304> | What haskell specific data store are they talking about? Can you provide me with an example of a haskell specific data store? |
| 10:14:51 | <comerijn> | Probably acid-state? |
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| 10:25:56 | <__monty__> | Project M36? : ) |
| 10:26:37 | <Hecate> | Guest309304: they don't exist, should not exist, and are mostly useless anyway |
| 10:26:59 | <Hecate> | what you want is a little conversion layer (sometimes as simple as a function) for the storage engine that you use, be it FoundationDB or PostgreSQL |
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| 10:33:54 | <comerijn> | Hecate: I strongly disagree with "should not exist" and the "mostly useless" is hard to state about as-yet non-existent things :p |
| 10:34:06 | <comerijn> | but yes, don't use acid-state :p |
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| 10:37:33 | <underlap> | I get the impression (circa 2015 from e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33320107/create-a-type-that-is-a-subset-of-an-other-type) that it isn't possible to define a subset of a type without stepping into refinement types in LiquidHaskell. For example, in https://paste.tomsmeding.com/yIPvCvq7 I'd like to define a subset of Comparable that excludes CmpPath. Is that still the case? |
| 10:38:24 | <comerijn> | underlap: Yes |
| 10:38:40 | <comerijn> | Well, "It Depends (TM)" |
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| 10:39:14 | <comerijn> | You could probably enforce that distinction with, like, GADTs and type tagging but that might force you to write *a lot* of boilerplate |
| 10:41:12 | <Hecate> | comerijn: yes I'm exagerating, although acid-state is mostly useless for real usage |
| 10:43:16 | <underlap> | comerijn: ok, thanks. I'd prefer to keep the code relatively basic because of the audience (potentially it could become a reference implementation of an IETF spec). |
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| 10:44:24 | <comerijn> | underlap: you might wanna split Comparable into "SimpleComparable" and "CompoundComparable" and then "data Comparable = Simple SimpleComparable | Compound CompoundComparable" |
| 10:44:44 | <comerijn> | underlap: that's a bit more verbose, but easy enough to work with |
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| 10:45:45 | <underlap> | comerijn: Yeah, that might be worth it and you're right that it's easy to read in spite of the increased verbosity. |
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| 11:00:16 | <Lears> | underlap: In practice, comerijn's suggestion is simpler and more idiomatic. In principle, you can do it like this: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Ae8xPsm4 |
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| 11:01:39 | <Hecate> | (interactive version: https://play.haskell.org/saved/bxghoM90 ) |
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| 11:32:57 | <underlap> | Thanks Lears and Hecate. Very interesting (and the first time I've come across DataKinds! Must learn...). Meanwhile, comerijn's suggestion worked out quite nicely. If anyone wants the gory details, please see https://github.com/akshaymankar/jsonpath-hs/pull/39/commits/85f19e4bbc6f58f62e2e218076568774db24b7db. |
| 11:33:56 | <feetwind> | is there a way to make :kind! less noisy? in particular suppress kind applications, show typelevel lists as lists, etc |
| 11:34:10 | <feetwind> | with ghci 9.2.8. iirc it used to be a lot less noisy |
| 11:36:47 | <Athas> | What is the most efficient way to convert a Text to a ByteString containing the text contents in UTF-8? |
| 11:37:09 | <Athas> | I hear that newer versions of Text use UTF-8 as their representation, so there should be some very efficient way to do it. |
| 11:37:57 | <Athas> | Reading the code, it seems that Data.Text.Encoding.encodeUtf8 really does just do a straight up copy. Is that correct? |
| 11:53:48 | <[exa]> | Athas: I wouldn't be surprised. If you want a lot of efficiency you might also like the lazy variants |
| 11:54:08 | <Athas> | Mediocre efficiency is enough for me! |
| 11:54:30 | <[exa]> | profile first |
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| 12:17:41 | <zzz> | ask questions later |
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| 13:37:17 | <Guest72> | Is text-builder the goto library for repeatedly appending left-associated unicode Strings? |
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| 13:38:09 | <merijn> | Guest72: No |
| 13:38:17 | <merijn> | Guest72: The goto would just be "text" |
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| 13:38:57 | <merijn> | i.e. the lazy builder in text is probably the goto except for people with specific requirements |
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| 13:42:27 | <Guest72> | merjin: I can combine strict text and the lazy builder? |
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| 13:43:24 | <merijn> | Guest72: Trivially |
| 13:43:26 | <merijn> | Guest72: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/text-2.0.2/docs/Data-Text-Lazy-Builder.html#v:fromText |
| 13:43:38 | <merijn> | Guest72: Lazy Text is (effectivelly) a lazy list of strict Text chunks |
| 13:43:52 | <merijn> | So inserting strict Text chunks into a builder is trivial |
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| 13:44:22 | <Guest72> | Alright! Thank you. |
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| 14:57:19 | <hellwolf> | Not gonna troll/spam https://discourse.haskell.org/t/behavior-driven-development-in-haskell/7037/6 |
| 14:57:19 | <hellwolf> | I am having a tongue-in-cheek term coming to my mind: Behaviour-Driven Types |
| 14:57:19 | <hellwolf> | is there such thing? Maybe time to start a money grabbing consulting company for advocating |
| 14:57:19 | <hellwolf> | dependently-typed programming for all? |
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| 14:59:02 | <Rembane> | hellwolf: Just do it! :D |
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| 14:59:28 | <Rembane> | hellwolf: The Iris guy coined the term Type Driven Development, there might even be a talk about it. |
| 15:00:06 | <hellwolf> | Yea, I know of that one. |
| 15:00:59 | <hellwolf> | That will be like management new wet dream: I will write spec in types, now please build an application that can compile, here is the deadline |
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| 15:01:55 | <hellwolf> | type BusinessPlan = When MarketIsGood (Make Money) :| Otherwise (Make Less Money) |
| 15:02:11 | <hellwolf> | please make a program : main :: BusinessPlan |
| 15:02:27 | <Rembane> | The manager can push the auto-button and get the code. No pesky developers needed! |
| 15:03:04 | <hellwolf> | only if he has all the funding for runninng LLM, if not he will hire you to save some cost and blame everything onto you. |
| 15:03:46 | <hellwolf> | or to the GHC where unsaveCoerce is actually unsafe |
| 15:04:41 | <Rembane> | Seems legit, I can provide scapegoat services. |
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| 15:26:36 | <zzz> | main = provideSolution . createProblem |
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| 16:40:58 | <monochrom> | Management wants to write in English, not types. |
| 16:41:38 | <monochrom> | Bah, late to the conversation. |
| 16:42:04 | <Rembane> | We need an english to types compiler |
| 16:43:39 | <Rembane> | In classic BDD libraries that's handled by regexes. |
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| 16:47:24 | <Athas> | Why does Data.ByteString.Lazy require an Int64, while Data.ByteString requires an Int? |
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| 16:48:57 | <mauke> | require where? |
| 16:49:08 | <Athas> | In its type: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.12.0.0/docs/Data-ByteString-Lazy.html#v:take |
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| 16:49:28 | <mauke> | that's the type of take, not ByteString |
| 16:49:37 | <Athas> | Oh right, I forgot the last part. |
| 16:49:52 | <mauke> | presumably because laziness lets you make longer strings (?) |
| 16:49:55 | <Athas> | But it does seem to be consistent for all the take/drop-ish functions, so I figure there must be a good reason. |
| 16:50:01 | <mauke> | because they can be generated on demand |
| 16:50:21 | <mauke> | and Int is only guaranteed to be like 29 bits wide |
| 16:50:51 | <Athas> | I suppose... but on 64-bit platforms, Int must be what... 61 bits? |
| 16:51:11 | <Athas> | It seems an edge case to have a 1GiB bytestring on a 32 bit platform. |
| 16:51:40 | <mauke> | the bits requirement is not platform dependent |
| 16:51:54 | <mauke> | but then, everyone uses ghc anyway, so it's a bit of a theoretical point |
| 16:52:06 | <Athas> | Yeah, does bytestring even work with arbitrary Haskell 98/2010 implementations? |
| 16:52:12 | <Athas> | It looks full of low-level hackery. |
| 16:52:49 | <Athas> | Anyway, today was a good day of hacking to speed up my lexer and parser. |
| 16:52:54 | <Athas> | Turns out there's not much lexer code left now. |
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| 18:39:36 | <dolio> | monochrom: That's why there would still be 'programming' jobs even if the program part could be completely synthesized from specifications. |
| 18:41:09 | <c_wraith> | https://xkcd.com/568/ "You'll never find a programming language that frees you from the burden of clarifying your ideas." |
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| 19:04:49 | <mniip> | if I have a functor F that's isomorphic to a product with some context: F a <-> (Ctx, a) , but where I don't want to name the Ctx type |
| 19:05:08 | <mniip> | this is essentially captured by having a polymorphic lens (forall a b. Lens (F a) (F b) a b) |
| 19:06:17 | <mniip> | in a certain yoneda sense you could say `Ctx = forall b. b -> F b` |
| 19:06:40 | <mniip> | and lens has a similar notion: the first field of a Context, and also the thing returned by partially applying `set` |
| 19:07:10 | <mniip> | but there's a crucial difference: I can split `F a` into an `a` and `Ctx` before choosing what `b` is, and a lens does not let me do that |
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| 19:09:42 | <mniip> | I could literally have `F a -> (a, forall b. b -> F b)` via `\x -> (view l x, \y -> set l y x)`, but what that would do is repeat the work of taking apart an x when I make different choices for b |
| 19:09:57 | <mniip> | any ideas how this can be avoided? |
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| 19:18:02 | <dolio> | One specification of lenses is (for your case) `F a -> (a , b -> F b)` |
| 19:18:37 | <dolio> | g l x = let open = l x in (fst open, snd open) |
| 19:18:58 | <dolio> | If you enable impredicative types, then `snd open` can be polymorphic. |
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| 19:19:33 | <dolio> | So `g l :: forall a. F a -> (a, forall b. b -> F b)` |
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| 19:24:29 | <mniip> | dolio, but the computation of `open` will not be shared |
| 19:24:39 | <dolio> | Yes, it will. |
| 19:24:40 | <mniip> | because it starts with a big lambda |
| 19:24:48 | <dolio> | Types don't exist at runtime. |
| 19:25:03 | <mniip> | they exist in core which is where floating in and out happens |
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| 19:37:22 | <dolio> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MNmTQK0E |
| 19:37:23 | <ncf> | mniip: how about "left adjoint"? |
| 19:37:32 | <mniip> | that's exactly what this is yes |
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| 19:41:23 | <mniip> | dolio, that's surprising |
| 19:41:36 | <dolio> | It's not surprising to me. |
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| 19:47:06 | <dolio> | This is why the monomorphism restriction only applies when type classes are involved. |
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| 19:48:57 | <c_wraith> | https://twitter.com/lolennui/status/1681427740434767872 |
| 19:49:25 | <c_wraith> | err. wrong channel, sorry |
| 19:49:44 | <c_wraith> | (at least that's not *too* embarassing to drop in the wrong channel) |
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| 19:54:17 | <sm> | could have been worse :) |
| 19:55:25 | <sm> | so twitter is still working eh |
| 19:56:29 | <c_wraith> | sort of. for varying degrees for various people |
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