Logs on 2023-07-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:16:53 | dobblego | is now known as dibblego |
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| 08:36:58 | <merijn> | stack still doesn't support internal libraries, right? |
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| 09:12:01 | <absence> | I'm playing around with generics and came across this problem with duplicate instances: https://play.haskell.org/saved/MgFlYh0X |
| 09:12:19 | <absence> | Is there a trick to get around that? I tried type families, but didn't get anywhere: https://play.haskell.org/saved/I2HM3LKO |
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| 09:13:00 | <merijn> | absence: Short answer: no |
| 09:13:33 | <merijn> | Actually, maybe with type families, yeah |
| 09:14:10 | <merijn> | Something inspired by this maybe: https://gist.github.com/merijn/6130082 |
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| 09:22:44 | <absence> | merijn: I think that's similar to what I tried? I guess the ambiguity error I got was because only the "output" tag occurs on the right side of =>, and not the input tags (tagF and tagG)? |
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| 11:07:29 | <danse-nr3_> | in general haskell is quite elegant, but scopes of values and selectors cause some clutter, as in `data MyData = MyData { myDataA = Int, myDataB = Int }` or `data LongerName = LongerNameA | LongerNameB`. I think there is some extension upcoming for record types, but nothing i am aware that enables `data LongerName = A | B` and `LongerName.A` for discrimination. So the best solution i can think of are small modules |
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| 11:26:12 | <arahael__> | danse-nr3_: There's already an extension - RecordPunning, I think. |
| 11:26:52 | <arahael__> | Nope, it's https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/duplicate_record_fields.html |
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| 11:32:50 | <danse-nr3_> | yep, with OverloadedRecordDot https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_dot.html. I hope they will slowly make codebases more readable. Nothing about values though, that i am aware |
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| 11:33:41 | <merijn> | Pretty sure OverloadedRecordDot will have no or negative impact on readability, tbh |
| 11:34:58 | <danse-nr3_> | data SomeLikeItLong = SomeLikeItLong { someLikeItLongA :: Int, someLikeItLongB :: Int } |
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| 11:36:25 | <stefan-_> | NoFieldSelectors is also nice to have, if you want to have variables which occur to be field names without shadowing |
| 11:36:33 | <merijn> | That's rather a strawman, since overloadedrecorddot doesn't remove the need for unique field names |
| 11:36:51 | <merijn> | the only thing OverloadedRecordDot does is make . even more overloaded and ambiguous |
| 11:37:44 | <yushyin> | DuplicateRecordFields + NoFieldSelectors + RecordWildCards = ♥ |
| 11:37:56 | <danse-nr3_> | yeah these seem a set of extensions designed to work together, but i can understand there could be reasons to deploy them separately |
| 11:39:27 | <merijn> | and I'm not as optimistic as you and others about "adding 7 somewhat related, backwards incompatible syntax that requires me to memorise some obscure rules on formatting to disambiguate" to *improve* readability |
| 11:39:56 | <merijn> | If I wanted to memorise the 5 different ways . can be parsed depending on context and extensions, I'd go write typescript >.> |
| 11:41:58 | <danse-nr3_> | the choice of `.` is debatable. Personally i always use spaces around composition. If compiler devs can handle the overload without increasing complexity too much, Why not? Could look familiar to newcomers. I think there is a debate underlying this, about space sensitivity (probably the wrong term) |
| 11:42:08 | <arahael__> | I don't do much haskell - not nearly as much as I want to, but I also don't particularly like overloadedrecorddot either, especially when you also have lenses that overload it too. |
| 11:43:06 | <arahael__> | danse-nr3_: I don't think this "familiarity" helps newcomers, though. If it looks familiar with object.property syntax, why can't you assign it? It'll still behave *weird* to a newcomer. |
| 11:43:42 | <danse-nr3_> | i think there is work in progress for assignment and other lens-like operations |
| 11:44:27 | <danse-nr3_> | this one http://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_update.html for instance |
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| 11:48:18 | <danse-nr3_> | still looks a bit awkward though |
| 11:49:09 | <danse-nr3_> | and it does not seem to be about lens-like operations |
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| 12:03:42 | <absence> | merijn: Thanks for the suggestion earlier. I think that's similar to what I tried? I guess the ambiguity error I got was because only the "output" tag occurs on the right side of =>, and not the input tags (tagF and tagG)? https://play.haskell.org/saved/I2HM3LKO |
| 12:05:57 | <merijn> | hmm |
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| 12:06:15 | <merijn> | see, this is why I dislike using typeclasses for type level programming :p |
| 12:07:51 | <absence> | merijn: I can see why. I've started looking into using Template Haskell instead of generics... |
| 12:08:52 | <merijn> | What are you actually trying to do? |
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| 12:12:18 | <Lears> | absence: If `class Something tag f | f -> tag` is acceptable, that would resolve the immediate issue. |
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| 12:20:41 | <absence> | merijn: I want to extract zero or on value of a specific type from a record, and if there are two or more I want a compile error. That's why the Merge type family is missing the case where both parameters are TJust. |
| 12:23:40 | <absence> | Lears: Thanks, that does get me one step further. I'll look into it! |
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| 12:25:23 | <dsal> | absence: that sounds like something generic lens does out of the box. |
| 12:25:43 | <dsal> | e.g.: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5laasaTP/ |
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| 12:28:13 | <absence> | dsal: Oooh! |
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| 12:38:38 | <absence> | dsal: I'm not familiar with this library. Do you know if there's a way to make it work for records that don't contain such a value? The ^? operator does indeed return a Maybe, but I get a compile error with type mismatch unless the value is present. |
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| 12:50:32 | <dsal> | absence: You mean you want it to not fail to compile if it can't match? I don't think it does that / makes sense. Most people would want it to fail to compile if it just can't work. |
| 12:51:29 | <arahael__> | I can think of one library that behaves like that: The protocol buffers library. |
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| 12:52:18 | <absence> | dsal: I want Just if the type contains a value, and Nothing if it doesn't. I don't think that's too crazy. :) |
| 12:53:08 | <dsal> | Yeah, I guess it does make sense in the case of protobuffers. Just not sure what the type signature looks like. |
| 12:53:36 | <dsal> | I wasn't exactly suggesting "just use generic-lens" since you seemed to be studying generics. Should be a reference of sorts, though. |
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| 13:07:46 | <absence> | dsal: There are definitely a lot of useful examples in the source code. Thanks! |
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| 13:35:14 | <aeroplane> | Hi everyone, I know we execute run a generated executable of a file "hello-world.hs" by running |
| 13:35:15 | <aeroplane> | `./hello-world` , but why can we NOT RUN the same using |
| 13:35:15 | <aeroplane> | command `bash ./hello-world`? |
| 13:35:42 | <int-e> | because it's not a bash script |
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| 13:36:07 | <aeroplane> | Thanks, but then Is it possible to do it? |
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| 13:36:29 | <int-e> | why would you want to involve bash? |
| 13:36:39 | <aeroplane> | I want to execute this in docker but caannot |
| 13:36:50 | <aeroplane> | *cannot |
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| 13:37:48 | <int-e> | odd. but if it really has to go via bash like that, you can make a `hello-world.sh` wrapper script that in turn invokes hello-world |
| 13:40:59 | int-e | suspects that there is insufficient information |
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| 13:41:30 | <aeroplane> | int-e: I do not want to involve `bash`, but I just want to test the generated executable file in an isolated environment |
| 13:41:51 | <aeroplane> | so the best way I know as per my knowledge is docker |
| 13:42:09 | <aeroplane> | and I run this script `docker run -it --rm -v "$(pwd)"/hello-world:/hello-world:ro bash /hello-world` |
| 13:42:22 | <int-e> | ... |
| 13:42:28 | <int-e> | why is there a `bash` in there |
| 13:42:46 | <aeroplane> | Its a docker image |
| 13:42:48 | <aeroplane> | https://hub.docker.com/_/bash |
| 13:42:49 | <int-e> | so? |
| 13:44:05 | <int-e> | https://docs.docker.com/engine/reference/commandline/run/ -- `bash` is not part of this command, it's the executable that you are running |
| 13:44:23 | <int-e> | which in this case is stupid becuase hello-world is an proper executable |
| 13:45:02 | <int-e> | (maybe it fails without `bash` but then that's a failure to investigate on its own) |
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| 13:49:36 | <aeroplane> | It fails by saying `No such file or directory`, but it also fails when I run `dock.....world:ro bash bash /hello-world` saying `cannot execute binary file` |
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| 13:51:24 | <aeroplane> | But my real question is that I want to run the executable in an environment which does not have haskell installed, is it possible to do that |
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| 13:51:47 | <int-e> | The "File not found" is probably the dynamic linker not finding a shared library |
| 13:52:29 | <int-e> | If the docker environment has `ldd` you can try `docker run ... ldd /hello-world` |
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| 13:56:36 | <aeroplane> | I don't know what is happening, it gives following errors: http://ix.io/4B39 |
| 13:57:39 | <int-e> | So your docker environment doesn't have libtinfo and libgmp. |
| 13:58:22 | <int-e> | So you either have to add those (at the right versions) or you have to figure out how to link your executable statically (which I haven't needed in a long time) |
| 13:58:57 | <aeroplane> | ok I will try to install them and then see what happens |
| 14:00:27 | <aeroplane> | changing bash to ubuntu should help |
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| 14:02:56 | <monochrom> | Default GHC setting is that an executable does not need Haskell installed. Unless you got your copy of GHC from archlinux. |
| 14:03:24 | <int-e> | monochrom: I built my own :P |
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| 14:04:03 | <monochrom> | But I guess it needs libgmp and it can need libtinfo. |
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| 14:04:06 | <int-e> | (I actually have *one* dynamic-by-default installation, for lambdabot.) |
| 14:04:26 | <aeroplane> | int-e: It worked, It successfull displayed the result after using ubuntu. And the command that I used is command ` docker run -it --rm -v "$(pwd)"/hello-world:/hello-world ubuntu ./hello-world` |
| 14:04:42 | <aeroplane> | Thanks for the help |
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| 14:05:38 | <int-e> | FWIW, I do wish that a missing shared library resulted in a better error than "File not found" |
| 14:06:28 | <int-e> | That has nothing to do with Haskell though. It's between the kernel and the system's dynamic loader |
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| 15:01:45 | <ddellacosta> | do I need to mark a FFI call as safe if I pass it memory allocated in Haskell? I'm having trouble deciphering the end of this section, but it seems like it's implying that? https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch8.html#x15-1590008.4.3 |
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| 15:03:12 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: safe vs unsafe wrt the FFI refers to whether the FFI call should be done safely or unsafely |
| 15:03:21 | <jean-paul[m]> | AIUI, you may mark it as safe if the FFI call will not re-enter Haskell except by returning. Otherwise, you should mark it unsafe. |
| 15:03:30 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: i.e. *unless* you *really* know what you're doing you should *never* mark FFI calls unsafe |
| 15:03:38 | <merijn> | jean-paul[m]: Absolutely not |
| 15:03:47 | <geekosaur> | jean-paul[m], other way around, `safe` is the one to use for reentrancy |
| 15:03:56 | <merijn> | safe is the default and you should use that if you're not absolutely sure what you're doing |
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| 15:04:26 | <jean-paul[m]> | Oof. |
| 15:04:51 | <jean-paul[m]> | I always remember that it's the opposite of how I think but always get it backwards after correcting for that. |
| 15:04:59 | <merijn> | unsafe calls can block the GC (and therefore *all* haskell threads) arbitrarily long |
| 15:05:16 | <merijn> | (i.e. "however long your FFI call happens to end up taking) |
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| 15:05:51 | <merijn> | safe foreign calls permit GC and haskell threads to chug along blissfully unaware |
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| 15:06:13 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: Your original question is kinda unrelated to safe/unsafe |
| 15:06:24 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: How are you allocating the memory within Haskell? |
| 15:06:28 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 15:06:45 | <geekosaur> | for any FFI call, you need to use pinned memory |
| 15:07:01 | <merijn> | are you using malloc to get a Ptr? are you using ForeignPtr? something else? |
| 15:07:32 | <geekosaur> | if you know exactly what is going on and that things won't block, you can get away with an `unsafe` call and unpinned memory, but I would absolutely not want to bet on that |
| 15:07:46 | <ddellacosta> | mostly alloca*, although I've been experimenting with wrapping stuff in bracket with malloc and free on either end |
| 15:08:02 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: ok, so malloc and free are easy |
| 15:08:35 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: The only thing you gotta do is "solemn swear you will never call free before any foreign calls using the Ptr are done and returned and that the foreign code isn't storing the ptr somwhere" |
| 15:08:36 | <ddellacosta> | in any case, this makes sense, I was just trying to understand exactly what was being said there--I think I was conflating garbage collection activity with "calling back into the Haskell runtime" per safe guarantees |
| 15:08:59 | <ddellacosta> | yeah, honestly I'd rather use alloca* everywhere if I can get away with it |
| 15:09:07 | <ddellacosta> | I don't _want_ to handle memory lol |
| 15:09:27 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: GC may move unpinned memory around, unsafe calls block GC, so you can get away with using unpinned memory (but that's really "I'm comfortable knowing intimate details of GHC/RTS"-levels of programming |
| 15:10:03 | <ddellacosta> | okay gotcha, that's helpful |
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| 15:10:20 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: alloca already gives you pinned memory, so as long as your FFI code doesn't secretly store/use it after returning, you don't have to do anything |
| 15:10:48 | <merijn> | (as per the alloca docs) |
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| 15:12:53 | <ddellacosta> | merijn: yeah, I _hope_ that is the case... |
| 15:12:56 | ddellacosta | sweats |
| 15:13:21 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: same goes for malloc/free, malloc returns pinned memory (because unpinned Ptr is kinda useless for most things, including FFI ;)), so as long as you promise nothing will use the Ptr after free-ing, your fine just marking every call safe (or not at all, since safe is default) |
| 15:13:48 | <merijn> | ddellacosta: I mean, if it does, then you get some good fun old segfault/memory corruption debugging challenge ;) |
| 15:15:02 | <ddellacosta> | merijn: haha yes, I welcome another segfault experience on top of the ones I've had so far |
| 15:15:24 | <ddellacosta> | FFI has been...a learning experience. Mostly learning how bad I am at C |
| 15:15:36 | <merijn> | :p |
| 15:15:45 | <merijn> | anyhoo, back to fixing my irssi SSL setup :p |
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| 15:15:51 | <ddellacosta> | thanks for the help! |
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| 15:49:10 | <texasmynsted> | clear |
| 15:49:23 | <geekosaur> | as mud |
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| 15:50:33 | <texasmynsted> | lol |
| 15:50:33 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 15:50:58 | <texasmynsted> | was just trying to type /clear and somehow left off the / |
| 15:51:09 | <Hecate> | we all do |
| 15:51:16 | <texasmynsted> | heheh |
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| 19:44:40 | <Hecate> | alexbiehl: ping! you got a moment? |
| 19:45:51 | <alexbiehl> | Hecate, on my way out, let's have a call tomorrow! |
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| 19:49:31 | <Hecate> | alexbiehl: got it :) |
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| 21:04:30 | <ozkutuk[m]> | I am looking at a library on Hackage. It has this build dependency on a package, but the package is not actually necessary to build the library itself |
| 21:04:54 | <ozkutuk[m]> | It is just part of the dependencies so that the provided example literate haskell files work |
| 21:05:23 | <ozkutuk[m]> | what would be a good way to eliminate this build dependency and still keep the examples in working state? |
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| 21:08:10 | <ozkutuk[m]> | I should also mention that the examples are not built by cabal |
| 21:09:28 | <ozkutuk[m]> | I am thinking of adding a new executable called "examples" which builds all the examples, put it behind an off-by-default cabal flag, and move the dependency from the library to that executable |
| 21:09:49 | <L29Ah> | yes that sounds good |
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| 21:13:38 | <ozkutuk[m]> | hmm, is it possible to build multiple executables through a single executable stanza? |
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| 21:16:44 | <ozkutuk[m]> | well I guess I can define different stanzas for each and use the same flag for enabling/disabling all |
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| 21:40:31 | <ozkutuk[m]> | Looks like not all examples could be executables, as some lack a main function |
| 21:40:36 | <ozkutuk[m]> | now I'm not sure what to do |
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| 21:51:54 | <jackdk> | ozkutuk[m]: in reflex-libtelnet, I moved the examples into a separate dir and used a `cabal.project` file: https://git.sr.ht/~jack/reflex-libtelnet/tree |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-07-20.