Logs on 2023-07-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:20:02 | <edwardk> | johnw: decided to finally stop playing around with coq and learn haskell for real, huh? |
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| 01:29:25 | <johnw> | jackdk: no functional background |
| 01:29:34 | <johnw> | edwardk: lol, awesome |
| 01:29:58 | <johnw> | I only learned Coq to give definite shape to the Haskell-shaped void in my mind |
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| 06:39:57 | <Unicorn_Princess> | i've got a simple homebrew units (kilograms, seconds,..) typeclass, where each dimension (mass, length..) is its own type. works well enough, but numeric operations on them are awkward, since e.g. Mass+Mass=Mass, Mass*Float=Float, Mass/Mass=Float, Mass*Length=compile error, which means i can't make them part of the Num typeclass. is there an existing numeric typeclass that could help me, or do I just roll my own? |
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| 06:50:39 | <probie> | If I've got two types `data Foo = Foo1 | Foo2 Bar; data Bar = Bar1 | Bar2 Foo` and want to get rid of the recursion, is there a better way than `type data FooOrBar = Foo | Bar; data FooBar (t :: FooOrBar) (r :: FooOrBar -> Type) where { Foo1 :: FooBar Foo r; Foo2 :: r Bar -> FooBar Foo r; Bar1 :: FooBar Bar r; Bar2 :: r Foo -> FooBar Bar r }`? |
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| 06:53:22 | <probie> | I guess I can probably have the non-recursive `Foo` and `Bar` be separate types instead of unpacking their constructors, but I think I probably still need a GADT for the mutually recursive group |
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| 10:32:46 | <arahael_> | Happy I got a chance to play with an 'Html Monad" today with the time I have on the train :) |
| 10:33:21 | <arahael_> | Defined a data type, for Html. Wrapped it up in a Free Monad, and then wrote an interpreter that interprets it back out into an "html file", though I just used "show", as I just wanted a proof of concept. |
| 10:33:56 | <arahael_> | Lets me do things like this: someHtml = h1 "Hello There" >> h2 "Hello Again" >> Main.div "Prefix" (H2 "Hello there") "Postfix" |
| 10:34:41 | <arahael_> | (But with do notation as well) - not a pragmatic choice, though, there's dozens of good html and xml quasi-quoters that do a far better and more consistent job, though, but it was fun and an accompolishment. |
| 10:35:54 | <jade[m]> | hm, a lawful monad? |
| 10:36:13 | <arahael_> | I'm not sure exactly what that means but it seems to be a proper monad, yes. |
| 10:37:14 | <ncf> | seems dubious |
| 10:37:18 | <jade[m]> | I'm asking because the abstractions I have seen previously simply used () as the contained type and only made a monad instance for being able to use do notation |
| 10:37:51 | <jade[m]> | the thing is that Html a doesn't really make sense because Html doesn't encapsulate anything |
| 10:37:59 | <ncf> | yeah, if you only use m () you're basically using a monoid, not a monad |
| 10:38:07 | <jade[m]> | yep |
| 10:38:35 | <arahael_> | Yeah, I had to define a Functor that wraps it, by using `data HtmlF a = HtmlF a Html`. |
| 10:39:06 | <jade[m]> | oh, so it's basically just disregarding the value |
| 10:39:12 | <arahael_> | So Html, HtmlF, and `Free HtmlF` are the main types involved. |
| 10:39:49 | <arahael_> | jade[m]: It doesn't disregard the value, the value is required for interpreting the free monad. |
| 10:40:20 | <ncf> | so you're just using the free monoid over Html, i.e. [Html] |
| 10:40:45 | <ncf> | someHtml = [h1 "Hello There", h2 "Hello Again", Main.div "Prefix" (h2 "Hello there) "Postfix"] |
| 10:41:07 | <arahael_> | ncf: Hmm, yes, I could've done it with [Html]. |
| 10:41:44 | <arahael_> | Maybe I should try that as well just to try it out, I'm still playing aroun. |
| 10:43:13 | <arahael_> | (Should be pretty easy actually: List has a Functor implementation, I believe) |
| 10:43:21 | <arahael_> | *Functor Instance, rather. |
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| 10:48:37 | <arahael_> | ncf: This is the guide I'm using: https://serokell.io/blog/introduction-to-free-monads |
| 10:48:52 | <arahael_> | It's a bit out of date but still pretty good. |
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| 10:50:08 | <arahael_> | The idea isn't really for HTML, but to provide an arbitruary DSL. |
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| 10:55:03 | <arahael_> | ncf: For example, consider someHtml 0 = pure (); someHtml a = h1 "Hello There" >> someHtml (a-1) |
| 10:55:04 | <ncf> | "Part 2" in https://www.haskellforall.com/2012/06/you-could-have-invented-free-monads.html might be relevant - your HtmlF functor is basically ((,) Html), so the free monad over that essentially gives you Writer [Html], and if you use that at () you basically just get a way of writing [Html] values in do notation. in general, what you've made is a DSL that lets you write Html values and return a |
| 10:55:04 | <ncf> | final value, but has no other effects |
| 10:55:34 | <arahael_> | I'll give that a read, then! |
| 10:55:47 | <ncf> | arahael_: seems like a slightly convoluted way of writing someHtml n = replicate n (h1 "Hello There") |
| 10:56:10 | <ncf> | (also, aren't you masking the fact that you have to write newtype wrappers around your h1, h2, etc?) |
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| 10:56:50 | <arahael_> | ncf: Yeah, it's two lines, effectively, per html element. This is just playing around, not to make something pragmatic. I only support like 3 Html types for a reason. |
| 10:57:00 | <arahael_> | (H1, H2, and Div). |
| 10:59:55 | <jade[m]> | im writing a html blog thingy right now which just uses lists |
| 11:00:04 | <jade[m]> | works pretty well, but isn't as "fancy" |
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| 11:06:22 | <arahael_> | Appologies, I'm on a train, my internet is very spotty. |
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| 11:22:23 | <danza> | jade[m], have you got plans about integrating user feedback? That seems to be a limitation in technologies like hakyll, that focus on static generation and do not include a server |
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| 11:23:38 | <jade[m]> | danza: I might? Right now I'm just working on this for personal reasons without any intentions to make a library of framework |
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| 11:24:16 | <jade[m]> | just a small static site for blogs + about me thingy + maybe art/poetry |
| 11:24:22 | <probie> | I think I'm missing context, but can't people just email feedback? |
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| 11:25:24 | <jade[m]> | I suppose so? I think they meant something like a comment section on a blog |
| 11:25:53 | <mauke> | oh, a guestbook |
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| 11:34:56 | <danza> | sigh, shitty connection, luckily this is logged. Let me reply while i have the chance. Yeah mail is an option, but not the best accessibility. I just wonder, if one wanted to have a modern comment section, which technology would be most convenient. Probably something that helps with authentication from social media |
| 11:35:48 | <mauke> | just integrate ActivityPub directly |
| 11:37:07 | <danza> | ActivityPub? Let me look it up |
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| 11:39:32 | <ncf> | mauke: how would that work? |
| 11:39:37 | <danza> | found a single lib on hackage https://hackage.haskell.org/package/activitypub |
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| 11:41:10 | <danza> | ncf, here some background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub |
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| 11:41:43 | <ncf> | i'm familiar with activitypub, i'm asking how a comment section based on it would work |
| 11:42:50 | <ncf> | not sure if mauke had something specific in mind |
| 11:43:54 | <probie> | > I just wonder, if one wanted to have a modern comment section, which technology would be most convenient. Probably something that helps with authentication from social media |
| 11:43:55 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘,’ |
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| 11:43:56 | <probie> | I sometimes comment on blog posts, but have no presence on social media, not even the fediverse |
| 11:44:45 | <jade[m]> | me neither, and im very happy about that |
| 11:45:01 | <probie> | A mailing list with an archive is accessible to anyone with a browser and email address and require no sign up |
| 11:45:23 | <probie> | s/require no/requires no/ |
| 11:45:42 | <[exa]> | probie: for like 20+ years I'm now naively waiting for one which just accepts gpg signed stuff |
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| 11:46:37 | <danza> | if the protocol allows getting user info in some convenient way ... there still seems to be quite some development needed for an usable comment widget. I think i could prefer something not authenticated that just makes the experience more accessible out of the box |
| 11:46:48 | <Rembane> | gpg over oauth? |
| 11:46:50 | Rembane | hand waves |
| 11:47:04 | <Rembane> | It probably doesn't exist |
| 11:47:10 | <Rembane> | WOuld be neat in a cursed way though |
| 11:51:32 | <probie> | danza: the widget just needs a button with a `mailto` link |
| 11:52:11 | <danza> | i tried with the fediverse but found it a bit limited and error-prone (milieu was mastodon & web interfaces) |
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| 11:53:40 | <probie> | rendering a mailing list archive into a comment section is admittedly some work, but probably not hugely painful (although some comments might be very large) |
| 11:54:20 | <danza> | yeah and then you need to write the logic to sync with a mail server |
| 11:54:27 | <danza> | probie, that would not make comments visible in the page, plus technology nowadays is not that convenient with those kind of links. Many times i have been annoyed by how the browser (or the system) managed them. I would just say anonymous comments with an option to add mail address or other contact, since we do not have better tools |
| 11:54:52 | <danza> | (oh sorry the first part of this message was written before your other mes) |
| 11:56:47 | <danza> | but well, to wrap the conversation, i mentioned this to jade[m] because if you are rolling out your own it does make a difference to assume a server or not |
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| 13:46:41 | <andrewboltachev> | Hi. I recently had to come across the expression (,) <*> c (where c :: a -> b for some types). I used it in my code: https://github.com/andrewboltachev/matcher/blob/master/src/Logicore/Matcher/Core.hs#L101 |
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| 13:47:43 | <andrewboltachev> | Having (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> fb, what's f in case of (,) <*> c? Does it have to do with the Reader functor (aka functor of functions)? |
| 13:53:28 | <mauke> | let c :: X -> Y and (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b in (,) <*> c |
| 13:53:48 | <mauke> | then we have f a = X -> Y |
| 13:54:24 | <mauke> | and also f (a -> b) = t -> u -> (t, u) |
| 13:54:49 | <mauke> | X -> Y is syntactic sugar for (->) X Y, which means ((->) X) Y |
| 13:55:15 | <mauke> | unifying with f a gives f = (->) X and a = Y |
| 13:55:27 | <andrewboltachev> | yeah... just got to ((->) X) myself too |
| 13:56:23 | <mauke> | f (a -> b) = (->) X (a -> b) = X -> a -> b |
| 13:56:43 | <mauke> | from which we get X = t, a = u, b = (t, u) |
| 13:57:17 | <mauke> | hence f b = (->) X (t, u) = X -> (t, u) |
| 13:57:37 | <mauke> | = X -> (X, Y) |
| 13:57:37 | <andrewboltachev> | wow... still quite astonishing :D |
| 13:57:38 | <andrewboltachev> | thanks |
| 13:57:56 | <geekosaur> | the Reader Functor is mindwarping |
| 13:58:07 | <mauke> | > (f <*> g) x |
| 13:58:08 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 13:58:08 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Show a0) arising from a use of ‘f’ |
| 13:58:09 | <lambdabot> | from the context: FromExpr t |
| 13:58:25 | <mauke> | > ((f :: Expr -> Expr -> Expr) <*> g) x |
| 13:58:26 | <lambdabot> | f x (g x) |
| 13:58:52 | <andrewboltachev> | yet under the hood I believe all that the "monadic"/"functorial" etc operations on Reader functor still are composed from (.) and $ |
| 13:59:07 | <ncf> | Reader's <*> is also S from the SKI combinator calculus, while pure is K and ask is I |
| 13:59:38 | <andrewboltachev> | e.g. Profunctor uses (.), Functor's fmap is just (.) |
| 14:01:03 | <andrewboltachev> | ncf: this one'd be good to learn about after finishing CT book :D |
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| 14:01:50 | <andrewboltachev> | I know there is combinator calculus, where combinators are functions that only re-arrange arguments |
| 14:01:53 | <mauke> | it's just S = \f g x -> f x (g x), K = \x y -> x, I = \x -> x |
| 14:02:04 | <mauke> | and I is redundant because you can build it from S and K |
| 14:02:19 | <mauke> | makes it harder to pronounce, though |
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| 14:02:35 | <ncf> | (the point being that you can translate any untyped lambda-calculus term into one without lambdas that only uses SKI) |
| 14:03:06 | <mauke> | down with I! |
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| 14:04:12 | <mauke> | SKK x = K x (K x) = x |
| 14:04:40 | <mauke> | :t pure <*> pure |
| 14:04:41 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 14:04:41 | <lambdabot> | • Ambiguous type variable ‘f0’ arising from a use of ‘pure’ |
| 14:04:41 | <lambdabot> | prevents the constraint ‘(Applicative f0)’ from being solved. |
| 14:06:44 | <ncf> | :t pure <*> undefined |
| 14:06:45 | <lambdabot> | b -> b |
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| 14:08:09 | <mauke> | CYK |
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| 14:13:52 | <andrewboltachev> | Recently created a tool that acts like a lens, without properly knowing that lenses are (and how Profunctors work etc): https://main.andrewboltachev.site/toolbox/json-matcher/40d8efcb-c736-4684-97d9-47ff21fd9e35/2/ |
| 14:14:05 | <andrewboltachev> | *what lenses are |
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| 14:23:14 | <ncf> | hmm? |
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| 14:29:13 | <andrewboltachev> | lens is... a path inside of some deeply nestesd structure. a (contex-free) grammar (schema) describes the structure and can validate it |
| 14:30:09 | <andrewboltachev> | my tool is a grammar and a lens (helps to focus on particular parts of the structure) |
| 14:30:42 | <andrewboltachev> | focus, then edit, and write back |
| 14:31:40 | <andrewboltachev> | perhaps need to blog about that properly (and fix the UI also) |
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| 14:36:03 | <andrewboltachev> | ncf: do you agree lenses and grammars have something in common? |
| 14:36:26 | <ncf> | everytwothings have something in common |
| 14:36:45 | <andrewboltachev> | err true :P |
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| 14:37:21 | <ncf> | lenses also do not necessarily represent a path in a data structure, although that's the most common use for them |
| 14:37:36 | <andrewboltachev> | yes I suspected that in theory it's a bit wider |
| 14:37:49 | <andrewboltachev> | as e.g. Profunctor isn't necessary |
| 14:37:54 | <andrewboltachev> | (->) |
| 14:39:01 | <andrewboltachev> | what I wanted is the tool to read and edit (analyse and refactor) source files (e.g. in Python, which I use a lot at work) |
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| 14:40:08 | <andrewboltachev> | having that typical systems (e.g. a web-based CRM system) as they grow, start gaining a lot of similarities in the code (e.g. a number of similar pages/views etc) |
| 14:41:41 | <andrewboltachev> | lead me to think that I can use some tool to edit them all at once, in few steps: (1) translate code, the whole concrete syntax tree to JSON (2) apply grammar (schema) to it (3) get sth I call "thin value" from schema (4) edit it (5) write code files back |
| 14:42:28 | <andrewboltachev> | Instagram developed this: https://libcst.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ which helps me to transform Python language to JSON and back (lossless) |
| 14:43:34 | <andrewboltachev> | I'm using Haskell to deal with it (and saying everyone that I'm proud of that) |
| 14:43:55 | <andrewboltachev> | but Instagram starts developing sth called "matchers": https://libcst.readthedocs.io/en/latest/matchers_tutorial.html |
| 14:43:59 | <andrewboltachev> | to explore trees of code |
| 14:44:08 | <andrewboltachev> | so it's also merely a lens :D |
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| 14:59:42 | <ncf> | i'd expect "matchers" to behave more like prisms, if anything |
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| 21:30:46 | <Hecate> | Is someone here knowledgeable about the Haskell FFI and using pointers with a C library? I'm hitting a roadblock with my tests on https://github.com/haskell-cryptography/libsodium-bindings/pull/94 |
| 21:30:52 | <Hecate> | and I'm super unsure how to investigate |
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| 21:31:14 | <Hecate> | like, do I whip up gdb? should I? |
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| 21:57:03 | <dsal> | Does anyone use vs code with ligatures and stuff? I actually have no idea how this works. It's drawing `<>=` as `<≥` and I kind of don't like that. |
| 21:59:10 | <dolio> | What editor? |
| 22:00:23 | <dsal> | Visual Studio Code |
| 22:00:46 | <dsal> | I'm mostly emacsian, but I've been using it more lately. It sometimes does useful stuff, but I don't actually know how most of it works. |
| 22:01:00 | <dolio> | Well, emacs is the only thing I can think of that might let you fix it. |
| 22:01:37 | <dolio> | Emacs makes you explicitly list all the sequences you want turned into ligatures, so maybe if you list that sequence, it will try to use a dedicated ligature, and presumably there isn't one. |
| 22:01:38 | <dsal> | It's just a display thing. Sometimes it's nice. |
| 22:01:47 | <probie> | Does it do weird spacing around ≥ so it's still 3 characters long? |
| 22:02:19 | <dolio> | But I'm not 100% sure that will work either. |
| 22:02:19 | <probie> | (3 characters long in `<>=`/`<≥`) |
| 22:02:48 | <dolio> | Yeah, most coding fonts with ligatures are designed to preserve spacing. |
| 22:03:08 | <dsal> | It lays out pretty correctly. I'm just not sure how to override this substitution. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/GL5UDYR2/%3C%24%3E.png |
| 22:03:34 | <dolio> | I'm not sure if VS code lets you do something similar. Vim doesn't, as far as I know. |
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| 22:04:03 | <dolio> | Er, I guess I'm thinking of a particular vim UI I use. Otherwise it'd depend on your console or whatever. |
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| 22:07:32 | <Lycurgus> | html vs what a native gui can do |
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| 22:14:57 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/CoenraadS/vscode-Disable-Ligatures/issues/2 might have some useful hints? |
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| 22:16:20 | <dsal> | Oh nice. Yeah, this is helpful. I also noticed in some aeson code it changed `.!=` to `.≠` |
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| 22:20:10 | <dsal> | This looks like it's someone saying "this should work" Which, yeah, that'd be cool. |
| 22:20:59 | <geekosaur> | the top is about that, the middle is "oh lemme write that and make a pull request", the bottom is a few people having problems with it and many others happy with it |
| 22:21:37 | <geekosaur> | what I'm not sure of is whether it works to prevent a ligature in the middle of another sequence, or just kills the ligature completely |
| 22:22:42 | <geekosaur> | I also found a ticket from 2022 when it got broken by an Electron upgrade, but it was subsequently fixed |
| 22:23:12 | <geekosaur> | it also mentioned a different extension, Ligatures Limited |
| 22:24:15 | <dsal> | I should probably not miss my flight trying to figure out a minor display problem. heh |
| 22:24:18 | <dsal> | Thanks for the pointer, though. |
| 22:27:32 | <geekosaur> | @tell dsal also there's a pointer somewhere in the middle to discussion of how to modify ligature fonts directly, which might let you define the larger token as a dummy ligature or something? |
| 22:27:32 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 22:28:10 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode/wiki/How-to-enable-stylistic-sets |
| 22:28:35 | <geekosaur> | @tell dsal https://github.com/tonsky/FiraCode/wiki/How-to-enable-stylistic-sets |
| 22:28:35 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 22:29:00 | <geekosaur> | won't help if you're using a different font of course, unless they did something similar |
| 22:30:52 | <mauke> | https://www.coderelay.io/fontemon.html |
| 22:34:44 | <dolio> | Does the font not contain information about this? Like, on a mac, if you type 'supercalaZapfinofrajalistic' in the Zapfino font, does it ligature-ize the Zapfino in the middle of the word? |
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| 22:38:30 | <dolio> | I know some ligatures are supposed to happen in the middle of words. But it seems like most coding ligatures are supposed to be 'whole word' replacements. |
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| 22:43:19 | <geekosaur> | I am under the impression that ligatures don't consider that; it's something of an abuse of the ligature mechanism |
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| 23:10:41 | <[Leary]> | dolio: Ligatures (liga) are context independent. "Contextual alternates" (calt) can be used to make glyphs dependent upon surrounding characters, but I'm not sure if that can be applied to ligature glyphs directly. |
| 23:11:31 | <[Leary]> | Ordinary programming fonts are not optimised for Haskell operator-soup, so they don't really need to consider whole word replacements. |
| 23:12:05 | <dolio> | Huh. So, does Zapfino in the middle of a word use the ligature? I guess it doesn't really matter. Or maybe they have some particular hack? |
| 23:12:40 | <[Leary]> | I don't know anything about this font, but I'd prusume it does. |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-07-22.