Logs on 2023-08-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:11:50 | <Inst> | with C libs on Windows, I'm totally out of luck, right? |
| 03:12:02 | <Inst> | If msys doesn't have the package, I shouldn't expect to get it working |
| 03:12:02 | <Inst> | :( |
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| 03:27:15 | <Inst> | gah, tbh, you're 100% right, Haskell development on Windows is like trying to pull all your teeth out over 24 months |
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| 03:27:59 | <Inst> | can't get arrayfire working, can't get halide working, can't get accelerate working |
| 03:28:09 | <Inst> | slit wrist UX and not Haskell's fault |
| 03:30:57 | <Inst> | going through msys libs and i should be happy with what i have |
| 03:31:21 | <Axman6> | does using WLS help at all? |
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| 03:51:59 | <Axman6> | WSL* |
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| 03:58:43 | <Inst> | i guess i could retry that, trying to do it via mingw |
| 03:58:53 | <Inst> | GHCuped to 8.10.7 with hopes that accelerate will work |
| 03:58:56 | <Inst> | please, please, please install |
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| 04:06:48 | <Inst> | yeees! Accelerate failed to install on 8.10.7! |
| 04:07:03 | <Inst> | unknown symbol __p___argv! |
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| 04:24:00 | <Inst> | trying halide on WSL now |
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| 08:22:47 | <kuribas> | I found this pattern of Applicative in a Monad very useful, is it written somewhere? |
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| 08:23:10 | <kuribas> | I use the Monad as a builder, for example for forms, for generating fresh id's, then the applicative is for the static functionality. |
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| 08:23:43 | <kuribas> | The Applicative provides the processing. |
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| 08:24:30 | <kuribas> | So MonadBuilder (ApplicativeProcessor a) |
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| 08:26:00 | <kuribas> | IMO Applicative is even more important than Monad, since Monad usually can be substituted for side effects in another language, but Applicative cannot. |
| 08:27:36 | <kuribas> | Or you need some kind of parallel primite to emulate it. |
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| 09:00:48 | <fendor> | what was the tool that allows us to print a module graph of the current package? |
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| 09:11:02 | <merijn> | cabal-plan? |
| 09:11:13 | <merijn> | ah, wait, no, that's packages not modules |
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| 09:12:56 | <jackdk> | maybe related to weeder? |
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| 09:29:44 | <kenran> | fendor graphmod? |
| 09:30:53 | <fendor> | kenran, yes, thank you! |
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| 11:50:49 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: There's nothing fundamental about Applicative that couldn't be substituted. |
| 11:51:12 | <dminuoso> | Consider optparse-applicative for instance. There is so many option parsing libraries around the world, almost none of which use any Applicative-like interface. |
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| 11:52:58 | <dminuoso> | I think the main thing people misunderstand about Monad/Applicative is that its not the consumer side that really defines its characteristics. Using (>>=) or (<*>) has little to nothing to do with `Monad f` or `Applicative f` if you instantiate f at some specific type. |
| 11:53:15 | <dminuoso> | It just transforms into some "reusing function names" mechanism. |
| 11:53:55 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: I *can* make an applicative in Python, but it will not be very idiomatic or convenient. |
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| 11:54:07 | <dminuoso> | While integer addition together with 0 forms a monoid, you wouldn't really say that kids who sit in school adding number are "using monoids". They're just adding numbers. |
| 11:54:26 | <kuribas> | And I don't think I can make an Applicative class in Python, since it doesn't have hkt types. |
| 11:55:01 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Of course you can provide an applicative interface in python just fine. |
| 11:55:21 | <dminuoso> | def apply(x, f): ... |
| 11:55:25 | <dminuoso> | def pure(x): ... |
| 11:55:27 | <dminuoso> | Done. |
| 11:55:53 | <dminuoso> | This goes into "You've been using Monads all your life" territory. |
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| 11:56:29 | <dminuoso> | The only specialty in Haskell is that you you write code that is polymorphic over all choices of such interfaces together with a type system. |
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| 11:57:17 | <dminuoso> | And the type system has nothing to do with being able to provide/use such an interface either. |
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| 12:42:35 | <lortabac> | the ability to write polymorphic code over all instantiations of an interface is what differentiate type-classes from simple name-overloading mechanisms |
| 12:45:56 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: but not idiomatic or conveniently. |
| 12:46:54 | <kuribas> | dminuoso: how would you type this in Python? |
| 12:50:24 | <dminuoso> | kuribas: Idiomatic is possibly a bit of a red herring. In case of optparse-applicative, the question isnt as much as "I dont want to use apply() and pure(), but rather why that is done in Haskell in the first place. |
| 12:50:59 | <dminuoso> | Python's optparse gets away with just `parser = OptionParser(); parser.add_option(...); parser.add_option(..)` |
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| 12:52:11 | <dminuoso> | I'm not even sure that `Applicative Parser` has any relevant advantage of building a parser inside a state monad. |
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| 12:58:27 | <jackdk> | I've often thought that the HKD angle is under-explored, and that you could then have a `parse :: k OptionParser -> IO (Either ParseError (k Identity))` or similar. |
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| 13:02:24 | <probie> | Does an option parser really need to live in IO? I'd be inclined to go with something like `parse :: k OptionParser -> [Text] -> Either ParseError (k Identity)` and add a `parseOpts` which is in IO for convenience |
| 13:03:16 | <merijn> | probie: It doesn't |
| 13:03:24 | <merijn> | probie: optparse-applicative has pure versions |
| 13:03:33 | <merijn> | for example |
| 13:03:56 | <merijn> | the default "IO" parser just also does auto completion and printing out help |
| 13:05:04 | <dminuoso> | merijn: It doesnt quite print out help, though. |
| 13:05:07 | <dminuoso> | Only if you bake it into the parser. |
| 13:06:09 | <dminuoso> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optparse-applicative-0.18.1.0/docs/Options-Applicative.html#v:helper |
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| 13:09:28 | <probie> | My comment was that I wasn't a fan of the type jackdk gave, not a comment on optparse-applicative. I've been burnt too many times by programs which can't take arguments via a file (I think GHC also has this limitation, but I haven't run into it), and moving the parsing away from IO makes this easier. |
| 13:09:48 | <probie> | (if you can't take arguments via a file, then there's a limit to how many arguments you can take) |
| 13:11:19 | <dminuoso> | What do you mean by file? |
| 13:11:25 | <dminuoso> | A handle? Filename? Its content? |
| 13:13:07 | <probie> | So instead of something like `myprog foo bar baz`, it's nice to have `myprog --args-from-file argfile` with the same behaviour (when the contents of `argfile` is `foo bar baz`) |
| 13:14:16 | <probie> | It's a niche case where it's needed (on my current machine, the length of the options can be up to about 2MB), but when it is needed, there's often no way around it |
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| 13:16:24 | <dminuoso> | probie: foo `< argsFile` |
| 13:16:31 | <dminuoso> | The shell has your back. |
| 13:16:39 | <probie> | which fails if the file is long than 2MB |
| 13:16:52 | <dminuoso> | Ah. Why do you have options that long? |
| 13:17:01 | <dminuoso> | What kind of problem domain are you in? |
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| 13:20:37 | <jackdk> | probie: fair, but the point is the HKD, not the IO |
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| 13:22:42 | <probie> | The problem domain of doing silly things. I had a tool that did a pairwise comparison of files, and about thousand files I wanted to compare with each other, so I had about a million absolute paths being passed to this tool |
| 13:23:00 | <danse-nr3> | dminuoso, that passes the standard input to a command. For arguments i believe xargs is the trick |
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| 13:23:29 | <probie> | Now, that I could get around by just running the tool a thousand times and concatenating the results, but it's still a thing that has bugged me to this day |
| 13:23:29 | <danse-nr3> | or `command $(cat file)` |
| 13:24:16 | <probie> | My memory might be playing tricks on me, but I think I remember watching a talk where someone was trying to use backpack with GHC and hit this limit |
| 13:25:09 | <probie> | I think it was ekmett and he was talking about https://github.com/ekmett/unboxed |
| 13:26:07 | <dminuoso> | danse-nr3: That's extensionally equivalent but slower. |
| 13:27:18 | <danse-nr3> | sorry, i got used to read those backticks differently, always used $() |
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| 13:28:02 | <dminuoso> | danse-nr3: It doesn't pass standard input to a command, though. |
| 13:28:23 | <danse-nr3> | yeah that is why i apologised |
| 13:28:27 | <dminuoso> | I'm not entirely sure what kind of bashism this is, but `< foo` is really the same as `cat foo` behaviorally. |
| 13:28:42 | <dminuoso> | Or $(< foo) if you prefer. |
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| 13:30:30 | <anselmschueler> | are you using backticks to delimit code or is it part of the command? |
| 13:30:46 | <int-e> | dminuoso: wah ...why does that work when a standalong < foo doesn't... |
| 13:30:48 | <anselmschueler> | s/command/code/ |
| 13:30:52 | <int-e> | *standalone |
| 13:31:10 | <dminuoso> | int-e: anselmschueler Part of the command. |
| 13:31:10 | <danse-nr3> | `` or $() means evaluate the content and put it in the command |
| 13:31:25 | <anselmschueler> | int-e: what do you mean by standalone <foo? cmd <foo vs cmd `<foo`? |
| 13:31:32 | <probie> | jackdk: Sorry, my brain has switched off for the night. I might actually try smashing something like that together tomorrow that's `parse :: TraversableB k => k (OptionParser err) -> [Text] -> Either (ParseError err) (k Identity)` |
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| 13:32:09 | <bionade24> | Hello, I have a function B that can take hours and already uses the State Monad. The function A calling B has a signal handler for Ctrl+C that flushes the file where the result gets wrriten to, thus it still runs as without interruption. |
| 13:32:31 | <bionade24> | How can I have a recursion end in B invoked by the signal handler ? |
| 13:33:14 | <int-e> | anselmschueler: I mean typing < foo as a command, as opposed to < foo cat. |
| 13:33:38 | <anselmschueler> | int-e: I see |
| 13:33:42 | <int-e> | anselmschueler: that produces no output for me, so what about $( < foo ) is different that the file contents is captured? |
| 13:33:53 | <anselmschueler> | idk |
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| 13:35:14 | <anselmschueler> | bionade24: can you give the types? is b :: State s t or b :: t -> State s t? |
| 13:35:20 | <int-e> | $( < foo ) doesn't work in dash, fwiw. |
| 13:35:30 | <dminuoso> | int-e: So this behavior is documented in man bash under `The command substitution $(cat file) can be replaced by the equivalent but faster $(< file).` |
| 13:35:45 | <dminuoso> | And #bash folks suggest that its a special cased behavior (not generlizable from anything) |
| 13:36:00 | <anselmschueler> | some shells allow you to type <file to print file to stdout |
| 13:36:19 | <int-e> | dminuoso: thanks |
| 13:36:28 | <anselmschueler> | e.g. zsh |
| 13:36:38 | <dminuoso> | int-e: zsh copies this behavior at least. |
| 13:37:21 | <Clint> | i think it was the other way around |
| 13:37:59 | <dminuoso> | https://zsh.sourceforge.io/Doc/Release/Expansion.html |
| 13:38:13 | <dminuoso> | "This is effectively the reverse of the special form $(<arg) which treats arg as a file name and replaces it with the file’s contents." |
| 13:38:19 | <dminuoso> | That documentation reads a bit clearer. |
| 13:38:36 | <dminuoso> | Clint: Who knows, maybe even zsh copied it from yet-another-sh. |
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| 13:40:29 | <Clint> | would've been ksh if anything |
| 13:40:51 | <int-e> | maybe it was an accidental feature of command substitution in some shell at some point |
| 13:40:59 | <anselmschueler> | ksh doesn’t interpret <file as cat file |
| 13:41:14 | <int-e> | it being an accident would explain the discrepancy between $(< and plain < in bash. |
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| 13:43:30 | <anselmschueler> | tcsh finds <file to be a syntax error |
| 13:43:58 | <dminuoso> | Plain >foo and <foo in zsh are quite useful. |
| 13:44:22 | <anselmschueler> | rc also doesn’t interpret <file |
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| 13:45:11 | <dminuoso> | Also quite useful and possibly underused is process substitution. |
| 13:45:19 | <anselmschueler> | wroathe: is it a coincidence that you got a cloak just as you joined the channel or does your client do autojoin before sasl? |
| 13:45:24 | <dminuoso> | diff foo <(sort bar) |
| 13:45:27 | <dminuoso> | Its so incredibly useful :) |
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| 13:47:33 | <anselmschueler> | on fish we unfortunately only have unidirectional process substitution |
| 13:47:43 | <bionade24> | anselmschueler: It's b :: t -> State s t |
| 13:47:53 | <anselmschueler> | here it is diff foo (sort bar | psub) |
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| 14:07:26 | <haskGPT> | ([Double] -> Double) -> State s (Double,[Double]) [Double] |
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| 14:07:48 | <haskGPT> | where type State s i o = s -> i -> (s,o) |
| 14:09:02 | <haskGPT> | the first argument is interpreted as a loss in a learning round |
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| 14:09:27 | <haskGPT> | and is applied to give State s (Double,[Double]) (Double,[Double]) |
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| 14:09:49 | <haskGPT> | which can be itterated for the round. |
| 14:10:00 | <haskGPT> | State s (Double,[Double]) [Double], is interpreted as a sampler |
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| 14:11:00 | <haskGPT> | it transfers an input sample, (error,vec), to a new proposal vec, updating with stateful information |
| 14:11:57 | <haskGPT> | the iteration of sampling through a loss is the core of ML |
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| 14:20:58 | <ncf> | is there a question? |
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| 14:22:08 | <haskGPT> | hi! |
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| 15:08:39 | <EvanR> | ncf, the nick indicates automated haskell irc user |
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| 16:03:10 | <geekosaur> | reminder, we are considering linking #haskell to a dedicated Matrix room (#haskell-irc:matrix.org). discussion/comments should be in #haskell-ops so it doesn't get lost |
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| 16:07:12 | <ncf> | aren't we already linked to a matrix room? |
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| 16:09:16 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 16:09:35 | <geekosaur> | back in the freenode days we were but it was never reestablished |
| 16:09:44 | <geekosaur> | and nobody particularly wants it to be |
| 16:10:03 | <geekosaur> | we are portaled but portaling will end 12 August |
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| 16:14:08 | <ncf> | what's the difference between portalling and linking? |
| 16:15:16 | <geekosaur> | with portaling matrix creates a virtual room that mirrors the irc channel. linking is direct between existing matrix rooms and irc or other services |
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| 16:15:51 | <geekosaur> | (officially they call the latter "plumbed") |
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| 16:19:37 | <geekosaur> | https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/make-sure-libera-bridge-keeps-working/ has a pretty good overview. the shutdown date was extended 2 weeks due to bugs found in the matrix bridge while they were preparing for the transition |
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| 16:22:11 | <ncf> | if we could find bridging software that does not turn matrix users into oblivious spammers that would be nice |
| 16:22:55 | <haskGPT> | what about this haskell chatGPT? |
| 16:23:02 | <ncf> | ideally i think matrix should limit what users can do in IRC-first rooms, but maybe that's wishful thinking |
| 16:23:42 | <geekosaur> | the problem is that requires the bridge to support per-room settings for things like this, whereas the only way to implement that is plumbing |
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| 16:24:46 | <haskGPT> | pure, obviously, though even ports seem missing |
| 16:25:20 | <haskGPT> | anyone in? as in, im probably not going to be able to do it alone |
| 16:25:31 | <haskGPT> | i have the core ML stuff |
| 16:25:38 | <haskGPT> | i think i have an AGI |
| 16:26:22 | <haskGPT> | but there is some kind of voodoo with getting large language models to do things like, reason about their own processing or something like that |
| 16:26:38 | <haskGPT> | like, there is some unclear linking together of how the prompts are analysed |
| 16:26:49 | <haskGPT> | i think its bespoke. |
| 16:27:04 | <haskGPT> | which is where a community effort would be useful |
| 16:27:40 | <haskGPT> | and, also, just to have this discussion, since it seems inevitable |
| 16:28:30 | <haskGPT> | as, in, does anyone have an idea why you couldnt just use immitation learning? |
| 16:28:48 | <haskGPT> | that doesnt seem to have any obscure wiring. if you see what i mean... |
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| 16:29:13 | <haskGPT> | like, if transfer learning *could* work, then how *could* it be weirdly constructed in how it analyses prompts |
| 16:29:59 | <ncf> | just spent an ungodly amount of time tracking down where the TraversableWithIndex Int Vector instance was defined |
| 16:30:24 | <haskGPT> | i guess its the "tokenisation" stage, which could just be like, the only thing thats "weird" about language models as they are discrete, while the nets are continuous. so maybe its just a quantization thing. |
| 16:31:17 | <haskGPT> | but they give the impression there are all kinds of intricacies, is this just to deter competition perhaps? |
| 16:31:40 | <haskGPT> | its just, a bit burdensome contending with trying to copy a black box |
| 16:31:42 | <geekosaur> | haskGPT, if you want to discuss language model-based AI, there is #haskell-offtopic |
| 16:31:55 | <geekosaur> | this channel is for Haskell questions and discussion |
| 16:31:58 | <haskGPT> | you understand what im asking though? |
| 16:32:35 | <haskGPT> | its just a preliminary consideration. the point is to get community involvement. |
| 16:33:37 | <haskGPT> | i will refrain from discussing the particulars of LLM's, other than to say, that just cos we cant see whats in the chatGPT black box, doesnt mean we cant copy it. seems like it might be uncomplicated. |
| 16:33:49 | <geekosaur> | then you want discourse.haskell.org |
| 16:33:59 | <haskGPT> | awesome! thanks |
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| 16:38:53 | <haskGPT> | seems dead |
| 16:40:06 | <[exa]> | I assume the haskell GPT-constructing community is elsewhere. |
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| 16:40:31 | <haskGPT> | yeah, stuck in some kind of box |
| 16:41:00 | <haskGPT> | well, im happy my AGI works. |
| 16:41:11 | <haskGPT> | could have been fun |
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| 16:52:36 | <shapr> | good morning? |
| 16:58:46 | <[exa]> | o/ |
| 16:58:57 | <geekosaur> | ohai |
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| 17:01:13 | <shapr> | Yay, there are DOZENS of us awake! |
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| 17:11:41 | <Hecate> | woop woop |
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| 17:27:45 | <juri_> | indeed. |
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| 22:10:33 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
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| 22:13:52 | × | accord quits (uid568320@id-568320.hampstead.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 22:17:52 | <geekosaur> | test |
| 22:18:03 | geekosaur | sets mode -o geekosaur |
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| 23:21:10 | <geekosaur[c]> | Test 2 |
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| 23:26:42 | <EvanR> | didn't see either of those tests, test failed |
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| 23:27:00 | <geekosaur> | yes, the bridge is being annoying |
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| 23:27:36 | <geekosaur> | and it's bidirectional: it never reconnected me (or johnw or several others) when it came back from last night's outage |
| 23:27:45 | <geekosaur> | I presume it needs a full restart |
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| 23:28:32 | <lisbeths> | if you like lambda calculus please check out the Lambda calculus IRC channel. It has two active daily users. me and the legendary John tromp who is an expert on making the smallest possible executables |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-08-01.