Logs on 2023-08-03 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:42:39	<shapr>	Anyone else attending ICFP this year in Seattle?
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02:16:03	<jackdk>	shapr: one particularly annoying thing with the cursor types I've been playing with is that I don't have a "one-past-the-end" cursor
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02:22:46	<probie>	jackdk: I'm not quite sure what you're asking re parser combinators on zippers
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02:23:37	<glguy>	jackdk: my config-schema library has a kind of parser-combinators on trees for matching configuration values (kind of like json) to Haskell values
02:25:16	<jackdk>	probie: the classic parser monad is like`newtype Parser a = Parser (String -> Maybe (String, a))`, right? And so you "move along" the input stream (except you throw away the characters you've consumed. What if instead, you made a monad like `newtype CursorParser a = CursorParser (Cursor -> Maybe (Cursor, a))`? This seems to get me a lot of what I want with `$CURRENT_WORK_PROBLEM`
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02:27:53	<jackdk>	But, I can write `eof :: Parser ()` which succeeds iff the input stream is empty. But the zipper library I've been playing has cursors points at a specific node, so writing an `eof`-equivalent is more annoying.
02:28:09	<probie>	And you're walking some arbitrary tree structure?
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02:28:55	<jackdk>	yeah some slightly-more-structured-than-normal HTML
02:30:01	<jackdk>	and so I want to do something like walk all the first-level children of the document and parse each.
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02:34:43	<probie>	So does that mean some of your combinators are ones which "uncons" (i.e move the cursor back to a place you've already been when you're not backtracking due to failure)?
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02:38:29	<probie>	either way, I can't think of any relevant literature, I'm just curious about the problem
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02:44:57	<jackdk>	The library makes the assumption that the function `current :: Cursor -> Node` exists, whereas I think i want to allow valid cursors to not point to nodes. You could also think of it as wanting to let a cursor point to child element as well as the nil at the end of the list
02:51:25	<probie>	So if I've got `<foo><bar/><baz/></foo>`, how many children can I walk to from `foo`? 2 (bar and baz), 3 (bar, baz and null) or 4 (left null, bar, baz and right null)?
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03:02:05	<jackdk>	the library I'm using says 2, I'd like to say 3. You also avoid the need for specific "insertBefore" vs "insertAfter" if you do this; your single "insert" can be "insertBefore" if you allow your cursor to move to one-past-the-end
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03:33:30	<shapr>	jackdk: any connection to finger trees?
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03:39:32	<jackdk>	not that I've thought about
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06:58:49	<feetwind>	has anyone done anything like make Index.hs or Mod.hs or whatever a way to specify a parent module a la es6 imports or rust? something that's always just mildly annoyed me with haskell module hierarchies
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07:50:10	<dminuoso>	feetwind: Can you elaborate on what you mean by "make Index.hs or Mod.hs"?
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07:50:35	<dminuoso>	If anything, I consider the rigid module structure of Haskell a good thiing.
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07:56:18	<probie>	dminuoso: I think they mean someting like `module Foo (module X) where; import Foo.Bar as X; import Foo.Baz as X`
07:57:34	<feetwind>	nah I just mean being able to have e.g. lib/Foo/Bar/Baz/{mod.hs,A} mean the modules Foo.Bar.Baz and Foo.Bar.Baz.A instead of needing lib/Foo/Bar/{Baz.hs,Baz/A.hs}
07:59:03	<feetwind>	it's a very minor quibble, i just like the fewer redundant names in my directory structure in my rust projects
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08:01:22	<feetwind>	as in rust, es6, or python's mod.rs, index.js, or __init__.py files respectively
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09:43:54	<kuribas>	Do you think hkd types should be avoided in production code?
09:44:05	<kuribas>	Even if they help you avoid boilerplate?
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09:49:06	<danse-nr3>	highly-kinded?
09:49:11	<kuribas>	yes
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09:50:14	<lortabac>	kuribas: the question is probably too generic to be useful
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09:51:38	<kuribas>	I try to avoid to much type level magic, but I find hkd types too useful to discard.
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09:53:51	<Hecate>	kuribas: let me ask you a counter-question: Do they adequately model your business domain?
09:54:22	<kuribas>	yes
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09:56:51	<danse-nr3>	what is your concern about highly-kinded types in production?
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09:57:41	<kuribas>	That the entry for understanding them is too high.
09:58:32	<kuribas>	https://twitter.com/jdegoes/status/1471147030680645638
09:59:43	<danse-nr3>	well, that is a thing. Depending on how your team is structured (or meant to grow), you might want to keep things simple
10:00:10	<danse-nr3>	that tweet is funny, by the way. "functional programming should stay away from highly-kinded types" ... sounds like a joke
10:00:22	<jackdk>	be highly-kind to each other
10:00:52	<kuribas>	Not much of a team now, I was allowed to write this script in haskell, but only 1 other person has shown interest.
10:01:37	<jackdk>	I think a different Haskell ecosystem would make the cost:benefit of HKD quite different. Example: if we didn't have so many libraries using typeclass-based interfaces for codecs (e.g. classes FromJSON/ToJSON, etc), then having a record of encoders and converting to an encoder of records is legit cool.
10:01:49	<danse-nr3>	kuribas, then i would say keep it simple, but just a shallow opinion
10:02:33	<danse-nr3>	one can save a lot of boilerplate with higher-order functions already, and it is still interesting for newcomers
10:02:47	<jackdk>	There are few places where I have legitimately wanted HKD in my commercial work, though occasionally we'll parameterise a couple of fields by some functor f and set `f ~ Identity` or `f ~ Proxy` to "remove" those fields
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10:04:23	<jackdk>	(also, a good `FRepresentable` is holding back the really dumb stuff I wanna do, like write`fromDMap :: (FRepresentable rep, Rep rep ~ tag) => DMap tag f a -> Maybe (rep f)`, at least I think that's what it was)
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10:08:53	<kuribas>	hkd types are great for describing schemas
10:09:08	<kuribas>	like database schemas, api schemas, ...
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10:09:17	<kuribas>	configuration data...
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10:12:29	<kuribas>	You can then adapt it to read from a source, for example environment data, json file, command line parsers.
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10:13:32	<kuribas>	like: MyConfig f, then f ~ CommandParser, or f ~ EnvParser, or f ~ JsonParser.
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10:14:13	<kuribas>	https://chrispenner.ca/posts/hkd-options
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10:23:34	<danse-nr3_>	oh right, had forgotten highly-kinded types refers just to this. It does not look that scary. I thought it was about some more complex abstraction
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13:24:39	<eldritchcookie>	hello rust has ABI stable crates what would it take to do something similar in haskell?
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13:58:24	<monochrom>	Disable all optimizations.
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13:59:23	<monochrom>	Hugs has ABI stable packages because there is no ABI.
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14:00:03	<monochrom>	Python and Javascript should too, but somehow they still manage to ruin it.
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14:05:21	<ncf>	does anyone know why Indexable doesn't have a fundep p -> i? it would make inference easier with `indexed`
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14:05:29	<monochrom>	OK, disable optimizations or disable separate compilation (so no ABI again).
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14:13:53	<dminuoso>	feetwind: I cant quite make out what `lib/Foo/Bar/Baz/{mod.hs,A}` is meant to denote.
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14:17:06	<glguy>	Instead if A/B.hs some systems allow you to have A/B/Mod.hs
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14:20:13	<ncf>	oh, duh, (->) doesn't determine i
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14:34:39	<dminuoso>	glguy: Maybe Im really confusing something here, but we can have A.B.Mod?
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14:35:17	<glguy>	The point is those two paths would define the same module A.B
14:35:45	<glguy>	It lets you put the module name exclusively into the directory structure and not the file name
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14:36:25	<dminuoso>	In the same sense how nix allows you to write `foo/bar` which implicitly picks up on `foo/bar/default.nix`?
14:36:34	<glguy>	Sure
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14:39:12	<glguy>	If you wanted to have A and A.B normally you get A.hs and A/B.hs; this would allow you to replace A.hs with A/Mod.hs . People like to use it inconsistently so there isn't a directory A as well as a file A.hs
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14:39:46	<dminuoso>	That seems to only make much sense for completely flat module structure.
14:40:05	<dminuoso>	If you have more than one level of (perceived) hierarchy, then this just shifts module position
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14:41:56	<glguy>	I could see wanting it in cases where I have an important module and a couple submodules that only exist to support it.
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14:42:06	<dminuoso>	Though I guess it lets you keep "entry module" and helper modules in a singular directory
14:42:07	<dminuoso>	So that might be nice
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14:54:43	<ph88>	i'm trying to use TextShow with FromGeneric, i'm getting a stackoverflow. Is it a bug in my code or is it a bug in a package? https://bpa.st/Z4HQ
14:55:37	<ph88>	here same version without some unnecesarry imports https://bpa.st/LAJA
14:57:25	<geekosaur>	isn't that deriving-via trying to go via itself, causing an infinite loop? I'd want to see -ddump-deriv for that
14:58:07	<ph88>	ok i will try to get a ddump-deriv
14:58:11	<glguy>	What does that have to do with TextShow? Isn't decodeEither from Aeson?
14:58:15	<ph88>	i will put it in it's own project
14:58:16	<geekosaur>	(and I think we'd need to see that anyway to answer your question)
14:58:33	<glguy>	Oh, nevermind I see the show in the comment
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15:09:02	<geekosaur>	okay, looking at te docs for TextShow Generic it looks like you are indeed supposed to repeat the type there
15:09:25	<geekosaur>	we still need to see the dump-deriv output to try to say why it's looping
15:11:35	<ph88>	i think i found it, sorry guys seems it was my mistake
15:11:57	<ph88>	https://bpa.st/XFSQ line 14 and 15
15:14:40	<ph88>	how would i best implement that? convert it to list first?
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15:18:36	<ph88>	hhmm probably not, i'll think of something to do it directly from vector
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15:51:32	<EvanR>	converting to a list only to destroy a list for some reason has a chance of being optimized away
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16:13:31	<probie>	EvanR: It's not exactly chance. If you consume a list with `foldr` exactly once, it won't build the list (assuming the function generating the list is sufficiently lazy and can be inlined). GHC's list fusion framework is just about turning multiple uses for `foldr` into a single use of `foldr`.
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16:35:19	<EvanR>	that's the beauty of probability, lots of interpretations xD
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17:16:27	<ars23>	can someone recommend a good haskell framework for backend? I was thinking at snap and I saw that the snap and snap-core are quite maintained. except for snaplets.
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17:23:46	<probie>	Depending on your needs and comfort level with Haskell, perhaps servant?
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19:10:58	<EvanR>	what do you call a type for values between 0 and 1
19:11:19	<dolio>	Empty type.
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19:12:03	<EvanR>	0.5 exists!
19:12:13	<exarkun>	GLclampf
19:12:14	<int-e>	dolio values integrity
19:12:30	<jade[m]>	EvanR: percent
19:12:49	<exarkun>	I agree with jade[m] 200%
19:12:52	<int-e>	Probability
19:13:06	<int-e>	(Odds)
19:13:18	<dolio>	Probabilities can include 0 and 1.
19:13:31	<int-e>	"between" is ambiguous
19:13:37	<dolio>	Exactly.
19:13:50	<int-e>	So I'm happy to play with both interpretations.
19:13:54	<EvanR>	I appreciate the ambiguous answers anyway
19:14:06	<int-e>	NontrivialProbability
19:14:07	<int-e>	;)
19:14:32	<darkling>	Do you mean (0, 1) or [0, 1] or [0, 1)? (Assuming over the subset of the reals implemented by your floating-point hardware)
19:14:44	<EvanR>	[0, 1]
19:14:46	<int-e>	PositiveNumberWithNegativeLogarithm
19:15:10	<darkling>	I've got no good answer, just trying to clarify the question.
19:15:31	<Logio>	I suppose they must be nonbinary
19:15:33	<int-e>	EvanR: are there any semantics attached to it?
19:15:43	<EvanR>	nope
19:15:47	<int-e>	odd ;)
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19:16:12	<EvanR>	if anyone tries to come up with semantics, I'll yell "semantics!" and win the argument
19:16:54	<int-e>	You can always call the type "Something"
19:17:06	<int-e>	to indicate the lack of special semantics.
19:17:17	<EvanR>	a use case that comes to mind is the "value" of a knob that has a minimum and maximum setting
19:17:49	<jade[m]>	that would be in the percentage direction
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19:20:19	<EvanR>	all the good names were ransacked by the next 700 programming languages already
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19:24:53	<[Leary]>	Proportion.
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19:26:00	<integral>	UnitIntervalValue
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19:32:23	<EvanR>	:k '[0,1]
19:32:24	<lambdabot>	[GHC.Types.Nat]
19:32:52	<EvanR>	:k '[0,1] -> '[0,1] -> '[0,1]
19:32:53	<lambdabot>	error:
19:32:53	<lambdabot>	• Expected a type, but ‘'[0, 1]’ has kind ‘[GHC.Types.Nat]’
19:32:53	<lambdabot>	• In the type ‘'[0, 1] -> '[0, 1] -> '[0, 1]’
19:32:57	<EvanR>	shucks
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19:34:17	<ddellacosta>	is it possible to profile programs I run in ghci via cabal repl somehow?
19:34:41	<sclv>	i don't think so. programs need to be compiled and linked with the profiling runtime
19:34:59	<ddellacosta>	yeah that makes sense. I was hoping maybe I could profile the entire ghci session and figure things out that way somehow
19:35:54	<sclv>	the runtime behavior is too different between interpreted bytecode and linked binaries as well, sadly.
19:36:22	<ddellacosta>	yeah, that too makes sense. Thanks sclv
19:36:24	<sclv>	there's even reasons why those modes could affect asymptotics iirc
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19:55:54	<ph88>	I have a function like `data Foo a = Foo Int [a]` i want to replace `a` (like fmap) but i want to keep the old version too (but map doesn't allow that). Normally i would use a fold, but when i fold over [a] i can't build a result in the accumulator because i don't have access to the Int. Is there any abstraction that can work here or am i better of writing custom functions for it?
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19:57:06	<geekosaur>	define "keep the old version too"
19:57:26	<int-e>	also that's a (data) type, not a function
19:57:43	<geekosaur>	seems like you could map to a list of (old,new) tuples
19:58:06	<EvanR>	> map (\x -> (x, ord x)) "hello world"
19:58:08	<lambdabot>	[('h',104),('e',101),('l',108),('l',108),('o',111),(' ',32),('w',119),('o',1...
19:58:14	<int-e>	> let xs = [65,66,67]; ys = map chr xs in (ys {- new -}, xs {- old is still available -})
19:58:16	<lambdabot>	("ABC",[65,66,67])
19:59:08	<int-e>	there's apparently also "the accumulator"
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20:03:19	<EvanR>	fmap can't depend on the Int anyway because functor laws
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20:05:47	<EvanR>	several types come with a mapAccum which you could implement for Foo
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20:10:06	<ph88>	geekosaur, int-e , EvanR thanks for thinking along. I made a small source file that shows what i want to do https://bpa.st/TQUA
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20:14:19	<danse-nr3>	your doFoo function do not seems to use `int` at all. Is having data Foo a = Foo Int a an option? Then you could set `a` to `[b]` but also to `([b], [b]` to keep the old versions
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20:14:53	<danse-nr3>	`([b], [b])`
20:15:16	<ars23>	thanks! I'll try servant, then!
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20:16:16	<int-e>	:t partitionEithers
20:16:17	<lambdabot>	[Either a b] -> ([a], [b])
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20:17:56	<int-e>	hmm... `partitionEither` is defined in terms of `foldr` so there's a good chance it fuses nicely.
20:18:21	<ncf>	list . each %%~ \ a -> maybe ([], a) (\a' -> ([a], a')) (f a)
20:18:30	<ncf>	where list is a lens for your second field
20:19:41	<danse-nr3>	:t list . each %%~ \ a -> maybe ([], a) (\a' -> ([a], a')) (f a)
20:19:42	<lambdabot>	error:
20:19:42	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: list :: (s0 -> ([b], t0)) -> s -> ([b], t)
20:19:42	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant one of these:
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20:21:15	<ncf>	https://f.monade.li/KMLRNm.hs
20:21:19	<ncf>	([2],Foo {_int = 42, _list = [1,6,3]})
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20:22:56	<danse-nr3>	% import Control.Lens
20:22:56	<yahb2>	<no location info>: error: ; Could not find module ‘Control.Lens’ ; It is not a module in the current program, or in any known package.
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20:42:42	<danse-nr3>	maybe we scared him
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20:46:21	<ph88>	danse-nr3, it's using the int to rebuild the Foo on line 18
20:47:23	<ph88>	ncf, how can it be done without lens ?
20:47:44	<ncf>	replace (%%~) with id, each with traverse, list with \ k (Foo i l) -> Foo i <$> k l
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20:48:25	<ncf>	(that is literally how (%%~) is defined https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-5.2.2/docs/src/Control.Lens.Lens.html#%25%25~ )
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20:52:49	<danse-nr3>	ph88, yes, but the int is not changed nor affects any other parts of the function. You ask how to decompose doFoo in your comments. Well, if that was data Foo = Foo Int a, then it could easily become a functor
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20:54:10	<ncf>	seems unnecessary
20:54:17	<ph88>	danse-nr3, i don't know how to collect old values with functor
20:54:49	<danse-nr3>	just as you would with a simple `[a]` string
20:55:02	<ph88>	ncf, i don't understand your code
20:57:42	<danse-nr3>	% data Foo a = Foo Int a
20:57:42	<yahb2>	<no output>
20:58:16	<danse-nr3>	% instance Functor (Foo Int) where fmap f (Foo i a) = Foo i (f a)
20:58:16	<yahb2>	<interactive>:19:19: error: ; • Expected kind ‘* -> ’, but ‘Foo Int’ has kind ‘’ ; • In the first argument of ‘Functor’, namely ‘(Foo Int)’ ; In the instance declaration for ‘Functo...
20:58:19	<EvanR>	attaching an Int to everything sounds kind of like Barbies
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20:58:53	<danse-nr3>	i think he (they?) wrote that as an example of a more complex case they have
20:59:33	<EvanR>	ok yeah I was kind of skeptical of the literal data Foo a = Foo Int a
21:01:35	<danse-nr3>	% instance Functor (Foo Int a) where fmap f (Foo i a) = Foo i (f a)
21:01:36	<yahb2>	<interactive>:21:19: error: ; • Expected kind ‘k -> * -> ’, but ‘Foo Int’ has kind ‘’ ; • In the first argument of ‘Functor’, namely ‘(Foo Int a)’ ; In the instance declaration for ...
21:02:31	<danse-nr3>	% instance Functor (Foo a) where fmap f (Foo i a) = Foo i (f a)
21:02:31	<yahb2>	<interactive>:23:19: error: ; • Expected kind ‘* -> ’, but ‘Foo a’ has kind ‘’ ; • In the first argument of ‘Functor’, namely ‘(Foo a)’ ; In the instance declaration for ‘Functor (F...
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21:03:21	<danse-nr3>	% instance Functor Foo where fmap f (Foo i a) = Foo i (f a)
21:03:21	<yahb2>	<no output>
21:03:38	<danse-nr3>	sorry ph88 i should have been away from the keyboard hours ago
21:04:27	<ph88>	danse-nr3, np :p
21:04:45	<danse-nr3>	so with that instance you can apply your functions to the list, folds or whatever else, keeping duplicates etcetera
21:04:50	<ncf>	ph88: i think it boils down to understanding traverse, so probably do that
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21:05:43	<ncf>	you have a "small" function a -> f a that you want to apply to a bunch of targets in your data structure to get a "big" Foo Int [a] -> f (Foo Int [a])
21:05:55	<ncf>	in this case f is the Writer [a] effect that records the "old" a's
21:06:17	<ncf>	:t traverse
21:06:18	<lambdabot>	(Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
21:06:58	<ph88>	thanks, i'll have a look if i can understand it with these hints
21:08:55	<danse-nr3>	ph88, also, your doFoo seems to include some mapMaybe
21:08:59	<danse-nr3>	:t mapMaybe
21:09:00	<lambdabot>	(a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
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21:11:00	<danse-nr3>	hum no ... it adds an item to the old ones only when they lead to a Just ... i thought you wanted to store the old copy in any case
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21:21:01	<ph88>	ncf, what should be the 2nd argument to traverse (t a) ? I made this function applyToFoo :: ([a] -> [b]) -> Foo a -> Foo b; applyToFoo f (Foo int list) = Foo int $ f list is it useful in this case ?
21:22:16	<danse-nr3>	that seems a bit like a functor instance, but the first argument of applyToFoo would have type a -> b
21:22:26	<ncf>	that's basically a Setter' Foo [a], which is strictly less useful than a Traversal
21:22:38	<ncf>	because it doesn't allow you to get the effects back out of the Foo
21:23:08	<ph88>	what should put to the second argument of traverse ?
21:23:26	<ncf>	to do what?
21:23:56	<ncf>	the second argument to traverse is the structure you want to traverse
21:25:28	<danse-nr3>	ph88, the Traversable idea is closer to your original doFoo signature. It means you would make a Traversable instance for Foo. It could be more "powerful", depending on what you need, but maybe for starters you could try a Functor instance or familiarising yourself with Setter' from Lens
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21:26:22	<ncf>	you don't need a Traversable instance for Foo...
21:27:03	<ncf>	i mean you could make one if you like
21:30:04	<ph88>	i don't get it https://bpa.st/4JDQ i have used traverse before but now i don't see it how it can help here
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21:35:13	<ncf>	that should be ([], item) and ([item], new_item) i think
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21:40:11	<ph88>	o_O it worked
21:45:08	<ph88>	got a little bit further https://bpa.st/C2RA
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