Logs on 2023-08-05 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:55:43 | <Inst> | is Flatparse standard these days? |
| 07:59:26 | <Inst> | jesus, i just saw the benchmarks, the way i remembered it, attoparsec used to be very close to C performance, but extrapolating from Rust benchmarks it seems that flatparse is 1.75x rust |
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| 08:01:15 | <Inst> | that said, cereal is faster than nom |
| 08:01:20 | <Inst> | n mp4s |
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| 10:56:49 | ulysses4ever | is now known as artem |
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| 11:35:31 | <ncf> | > [("a",1),("b",2),("c",3)] & each . imapped . Control.Lens.index "b" *~ 2 |
| 11:35:32 | <lambdabot> | [("a",1),("b",4),("c",3)] |
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| 19:05:06 | <dminuoso> | Inst: I dont know about standard. |
| 19:05:18 | <dminuoso> | I think megaparsec/attoparsec are far more widely used. |
| 19:05:30 | <dminuoso> | Attoparsec is definitely not even close to C performance. |
| 19:06:10 | <Inst> | i had that misconception from old serpentine blog post |
| 19:06:17 | <Inst> | flatparse is potentially close to C performance |
| 19:07:02 | <dminuoso> | Yup, indeed. |
| 19:07:25 | <dminuoso> | But it requires a bit of additional care and core analysis to keep it that way. |
| 19:07:44 | <dminuoso> | The performance of flatparse is potentially only challenged by parsley. |
| 19:08:01 | <dminuoso> | parsley has even the potential to be faster. |
| 19:08:56 | <dminuoso> | However, in a bunch of experiments its currently not faster, which is presumably due to some bugs. |
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| 19:11:59 | <shapr> | I hadn't heard of parsley : https://github.com/j-mie6/ParsleyHaskell |
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| 19:38:58 | <oo_miguel> | geekosaur: I did restart because A) I created two X screens during my experiments, and now reverted this B) I do not (yet) have a xmonad.hs in place |
| 19:39:11 | <oo_miguel> | sorry wrong chan |
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| 21:11:57 | <dsal> | I keep feeling like I want something like "pure" for monoid. Is this a thing at all? |
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| 21:13:06 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure I even know what that would mean |
| 21:13:12 | <ncf> | :t mempty |
| 21:13:13 | <lambdabot> | Monoid a => a |
| 21:14:01 | <ncf> | Applicative is a kind of monoid, and pure corresponds to the unit (while <*> corresponds to <>) |
| 21:14:22 | <ncf> | did you mean something else? |
| 21:14:26 | <geekosaur> | I was thinking maybe Alternative |
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| 21:19:04 | <dsal> | Yeah, I was thinking about applicative. But basically stuff like (:[]), Set.singleton, const 1, etc... |
| 21:19:29 | <Hecate> | dsal: yep, that's mempty |
| 21:19:57 | <dsal> | No, not mempty. Monoid m => a -> m |
| 21:20:05 | <dsal> | Which is kind of a weird shape. |
| 21:20:56 | <ncf> | :t (:[]) |
| 21:20:57 | <lambdabot> | a -> [a] |
| 21:21:02 | <ncf> | :t Data.Set.singleton |
| 21:21:03 | <lambdabot> | a -> S.Set a |
| 21:21:05 | <ncf> | :t const 1 |
| 21:21:06 | <lambdabot> | Num a => b -> a |
| 21:21:10 | <Hecate> | dsal: question: what's the kind signature of m ? |
| 21:21:22 | <ncf> | :t const |
| 21:21:23 | <lambdabot> | a -> b -> a |
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| 21:21:33 | <ncf> | (:[]), singleton and const all match the type of pure |
| 21:21:51 | <dsal> | Yeah, it looks like pure, but I just want a monoid. |
| 21:22:01 | <mauke> | :t (<$mempty) |
| 21:22:02 | <lambdabot> | (Functor f, Monoid (f b)) => a -> f a |
| 21:22:04 | <Hecate> | dsal: you want the m without the a ? |
| 21:22:18 | <Hecate> | and you want it polymorphic? |
| 21:22:47 | <dsal> | Hecate: Well, not exactly. I just want to be able to express `Monoid m => a -> m` which I can do for any specific monoid, but not in general. |
| 21:22:55 | <dsal> | :t foldMap |
| 21:22:56 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m |
| 21:22:59 | <dsal> | Kind of what happens here. |
| 21:23:15 | <ncf> | not all monoids have a sensible a -> m |
| 21:23:29 | <dsal> | Yeah, const is getting on the less sensible side. |
| 21:24:03 | <dsal> | This seems like something smaller than a monoid, but still a thing I run into occasionally. |
| 21:24:37 | <ncf> | do you have any example that's not satisfied by pure or mempty? |
| 21:24:56 | <dsal> | I've not actually considered pure. |
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| 21:25:22 | <Hecate> | foldMap (const mempty) :: (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t a -> m |
| 21:25:30 | <Hecate> | dsal: ^ ? |
| 21:25:52 | <ncf> | weird way of spelling mempty |
| 21:26:05 | <dsal> | Heh. That's a sort of example of how this might work. |
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| 21:26:25 | <dsal> | I don't actually have a useful example in front of me. Trying to think of the rough shape of where I've seen this. |
| 21:26:32 | <ncf> | > foldMap (const mempty) [0..10] :: Sum Int |
| 21:26:33 | <lambdabot> | Sum {getSum = 0} |
| 21:27:53 | <Hecate> | dsal: did we already suggest const mempty? |
| 21:28:24 | <dsal> | i just want it to do something kind of useful. e.g., if the monoid is a list, it should be (:[]). If it's a Set, it should be Set.singleton, etc... |
| 21:28:33 | <dsal> | It's not a zero value, it's a one value. |
| 21:29:08 | <mauke> | what if it's Sum Int? |
| 21:29:35 | <dsal> | const 1 |
| 21:30:03 | <ncf> | what if it's Product Int? |
| 21:30:30 | <dsal> | Yeah, that's why it seems like it might be a smaller type than monoid. It wouldn't make sense for every Monoid. |
| 21:30:56 | <Hecate> | dsal: just create your own structure |
| 21:31:00 | <Hecate> | call it a dickoid or whatever |
| 21:31:08 | <dsal> | haha |
| 21:31:56 | <Hecate> | dsal: am I wrong though? |
| 21:32:00 | <dsal> | I'm mainly just wondering if anyone's done it because it seems somewhat useful. I also don't know names. What's a Monoid with a one value? |
| 21:32:11 | <ncf> | a ring? |
| 21:32:14 | <Hecate> | looks like you want most of the Monoid with an additional element? |
| 21:32:23 | <ncf> | or a semiring at least |
| 21:32:43 | <ncf> | but that excludes [a], so doesn't fit your requirements |
| 21:32:51 | <ncf> | i don't think there's anything to unify here... |
| 21:32:52 | <Hecate> | you want a non-identity element |
| 21:33:39 | <Hecate> | dsal: there is no concept of "one value", there's the neutral element and that's it |
| 21:34:11 | <Hecate> | either your element is neutral on the internal operation, or it's not |
| 21:34:31 | <ncf> | rings formalise "one" pretty well |
| 21:34:40 | <geekosaur> | sure there is or there wouldn't be a concept of "singleton" |
| 21:36:23 | <Hecate> | ah indeed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_pairing TIL |
| 21:36:57 | <Hecate> | dsal: there's this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/non-empty-0.3.3/docs/Data-NonEmpty-Class.html#t:Singleton |
| 21:37:00 | <dsal> | Yeah, the semiring thing looks like what I was thinking of, but a bit further constrained. |
| 21:37:04 | <Hecate> | but there is no Monoid superclass |
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| 21:37:12 | <ncf> | what does pairing have to do with this |
| 21:38:06 | <Hecate> | ncf: I read that the axiom of pairing justifies the existence a singleton {a} ∀ a |
| 21:38:42 | <ncf> | if you're doing set theory, sure |
| 21:39:00 | <Hecate> | that's what geekosaur is raising no? |
| 21:39:10 | <Hecate> | or are there other singletons that are of interest in our case? |
| 21:39:38 | <Hecate> | ncf: aren't we doing set theory from the beginning? Isn't monoid a set? :p |
| 21:40:17 | <ncf> | if your foundations are type theory then a monoid is a type |
| 21:40:45 | <ncf> | (and if your foundations are homotopy type theory you may want to constrain that type to be an h-set, but this does not have much to do with material set theory) |
| 21:41:14 | <Hecate> | ncf: wait, aren't types sets? |
| 21:41:29 | <ncf> | type theory stands on its own |
| 21:41:37 | <ncf> | you can interpret it in the category of sets if you like |
| 21:42:06 | <ncf> | see https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/monoid+in+a+monoidal+category for the most general notion of a monoid |
| 21:42:33 | <Hecate> | < ncf> you can interpret it in the category of sets if you like // ah, TIL |
| 21:42:45 | <Hecate> | well, dsal, which category do you want your answer packed in? :p |
| 21:43:07 | <dsal> | Heh. I'm just a blue collar haskeller. |
| 21:43:16 | <Hecate> | dsal: high five |
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| 22:01:46 | <dsal> | The rough shape of the thing I'm looking for, with Singleton is: thing :: (Monoid m, Singleton s, m ~ s a) => [a] -> m |
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| 22:09:43 | <ncf> | :t concatMap pure |
| 22:09:44 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t b -> [b] |
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| 22:09:56 | <ncf> | er |
| 22:10:14 | <ncf> | :t foldMap pure |
| 22:10:15 | <lambdabot> | (Foldable t, Monoid (f a), Applicative f) => t a -> f a |
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| 22:13:21 | <ncf> | or foldMap singleton |
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| 22:14:58 | <dsal> | Yeah, I did foldMap singleton for the above. I'll have to decide whether this actually helps anything at some other point. The downside of singleton is that it carries the `a` so doing a `const 1` sort of thing doesn't work. |
| 22:16:32 | <dsal> | I think one of the places I ran into this was at work where someone had created a data structure that's kind of like MonadWriter and implemented the equivalent of `tell` as `\a -> stuff <> [a]` |
| 22:16:40 | <dsal> | (it was only defined for list) |
| 22:17:15 | <dsal> | so redefining it for an arbitrary monoid requires me to be able to say what it means to put one `a` at the end of the list in this case. |
| 22:17:31 | <dsal> | A term the author referred to as "consing" |
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| 22:18:05 | <dsal> | er, s/term/concept/… whatever. There were a few things I didn't quite like about this particular piece of code. |
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| 22:44:40 | <[Leary]> | dsal: Maybe you want something like `newtype FreeMonoid a = FreeMonoid (forall m. Monoid m => (a -> m) -> m)`, with `singleton :: a -> FreeMonoid a; singleton a = FreeMonoid \k -> k a`. Then you can interpret it in whatever monoid you want, though it's not that different from using lists and eventually applying `foldMap`. |
| 22:46:04 | <dsal> | Heh, yeah. The most recent time this came up was someone manually placing items at the end of a list and I was trying to think of better ways to manage this. |
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| 23:47:43 | <jackdk> | dsal: Seems kinda related to a `Pointed` class, except nobody uses that in Haskell because it's very hard to make it say anything useful when it interacts with other classes, and it's not worth asking everyone to define instances for it on the way to deriving `Applicative`. |
| 23:49:31 | <jackdk> | [Leary]: One benefit of that encoding over just using lists is you can cons and snoc without as much performance trouble |
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