Logs on 2023-08-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:34:56 | Guest60 | is now known as steven2 |
| 03:36:28 | <steven2> | Hello, is there an easy way to install ghc 9.8.1 alpha through ghcup? I don't see it on my install. I saw that there was a commit for it in the ghcup repo but not sure how to get it in mine https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/commit/dac7e225204c769a72ffadd87b52270c7d3db4be |
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| 03:43:54 | <glguy> | I saw a message that there are extra yaml files you can point ghcup at for different release channels |
| 03:44:53 | <glguy> | https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#pre-release-channels |
| 03:45:40 | <glguy> | I don't know if or which channel might have that version, but that's where I'd expect to find the answer if I was looking |
| 03:46:52 | <glguy> | https://github.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/blob/develop/ghcup-prereleases-0.0.7.yaml |
| 03:53:42 | <steven2> | Any idea how to give ghcup that yaml? Not too familiar with its internals, didn't see anything related on `ghcup --help` |
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| 04:03:30 | <mauke> | steven2: first paragraph in https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/guide/#pre-release-channels |
| 04:03:50 | <steven2> | Awesome, thanks so much! |
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| 06:29:49 | <probie> | Imagine for a moment that `Traversable` was not in base, but rather a separate library. You're writing a library, but only a tiny fraction of the exported API uses traversable. Do you add it as a dependency, or just rewrite your `Traversable t => ...` functions to `(forall f a b. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)) -> ...` |
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| 06:33:00 | <probie> | Should I just split the library in two, so that there's a "core" part with minimal dependencies, and a "batteries included" version? |
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| 06:34:12 | <dminuoso> | probie: There is no good answer. |
| 06:34:23 | <dminuoso> | But foo-core and foo-with-batteries is probably the most common approach. |
| 06:34:52 | <dminuoso> | Another might be to put instances into a separate orphan library and just live with the (ever so rare) issues regarding orphan instances |
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| 06:40:01 | <probie> | dminuoso: There are no good answers, but perhaps there are approaches I have not considered |
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| 06:40:44 | <dminuoso> | probie: Another might be to use cabal flags to control the inclusion of additional libraries and introduction of instances. |
| 06:40:53 | <dminuoso> | The annoying thing about that is the lack of visibility on say hackage |
| 06:41:07 | <dminuoso> | say when looking at a package its hard to say the real dependencies since they may be flag dependent |
| 06:41:28 | <dminuoso> | or even just haddock output itself |
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| 06:43:06 | <Axman6> | When did cabal stop responding to ^c >:( |
| 06:46:45 | <Hecate> | Axman6: ^C ^C doesn't work? |
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| 07:09:03 | <Axman6> | nope, nor doas ^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C - it just kept going until it had finished |
| 07:09:08 | <Axman6> | does* |
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| 07:18:55 | <probie> | Have you tried sending manually sending it via `kill -s 2` just in case your terminal emulator is doing something weird? |
| 07:19:44 | <Axman6> | I haven't, it was a small package so finished quickly enough for me not to have time to experiment |
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| 08:35:00 | <carbolymer> | can I build local packages from cabal.project imported from my cabal.project package? seems that cabal is unable to find them i.e. it tries to find packages in the current dir instead of the directory of the imported cabal file |
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| 08:45:04 | <danse-nr3> | carbolymer, not sure how your cabal.project is structured. This https://github.com/danse/exmargination/blob/main/cabal.project is a configuration that works for me |
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| 08:50:51 | <carbolymer> | danse-nr3: that's not exactly an import - are you able to use cabal.project files from those packages? |
| 08:53:20 | <danse-nr3> | some of those packages also have cabal.project files to depend on other local packages, if that is your question |
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| 08:54:06 | <danse-nr3> | but you are right, that is not an import, just a way to depend on local packages |
| 08:55:18 | <carbolymer> | danse-nr3: so you need to cabal sdist every time you'd like to publish locally, and wipe cache? |
| 08:55:55 | <carbolymer> | danse-nr3: but then sdist does not contain cabal.project |
| 08:56:20 | <carbolymer> | so cabal.project of a dependency gets ignored |
| 08:57:11 | <danse-nr3> | yes. Not sure about wiping cache ... had to delete some noindex files sometimes. Yes, as you wrote, not importing the cabal.project, just providing a local dependency, sorry if that was a wrong answer |
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| 09:16:15 | <carbolymer> | danse-nr3: no worries, I've learned a new thing about local repositories, so that's a plus |
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| 13:12:23 | <danse-nr3> | there was an history of lisp machine published on haskell weekly some time ago. There i think i have read that applicative languages like haskell had the issue of consuming too much memory. I knew about memory leaks but this seems to be something more fundamental. Is it just due to the thunks and non-strict evaluation, or is there anything else? |
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| 13:19:44 | <geekosaur> | I wonder if it was due to not having good optimization |
| 13:20:26 | <geekosaur> | you create a *lot* of garbage in the nursery without some fusion etc. |
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| 13:20:48 | <geekosaur> | take a look at ghci's gc summary sometime |
| 13:21:22 | <probie> | If it's about applicative languages, I'd double check the source to see if it even applies to Haskell. They might be assuming strict evaluation and therefore the cost comes from not having mutation |
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| 13:23:58 | <danse-nr3> | hm you are right ... looking at it again, it lists "applicative order" of evaluation as strict |
| 13:24:16 | <danse-nr3> | https://haflang.github.io/history.html#event-lisp-machine-challenges 1978 "evaluation strategies", cannot deep-link |
| 13:27:33 | <probie> | Non-strictness gives a sort of one-time mutation that allows some algorithms using mutation (for example, many dynamic programming problems) to be implemented |
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| 13:29:28 | <danse-nr3> | this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_programming_language lists ML as an applicative language so i thought haskell would qualify as well |
| 13:29:39 | <probie> | e.g., how many ways can $n be made up using $1, $5 and $10 bills, can be done in Haskell with something like |
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| 13:38:29 | <int-e> | > let coin n xs = let r = zipWith (+) xs (replicate n 0 ++ r) in r in foldr coin (1 : repeat 0) [1,5,10] |
| 13:38:31 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,4,4,4,4,4,6,6,6,6,6,9,9,9,9,9,12,12,12,12,12,16,16,16,1... |
| 13:39:14 | <int-e> | > let coin n xs = let r = zipWith (+) xs (replicate n 0 ++ r) in r in foldr coin (1 : repeat 0) [1,2,5,10,20,50,100,200] |
| 13:39:15 | <lambdabot> | [1,1,2,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,11,12,15,16,19,22,25,28,31,34,41,44,51,54,61,68,75,82,8... |
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| 13:39:29 | <probie> | `f n = let arr = array (1,n) [<some computation using terms arr ! j where i < j> | i <- [1..n]] in arr ! n` |
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| 13:40:02 | <probie> | (I hit enter too early and picked a problem that was beyond my ability to write straight into irc at 11:40pm) |
| 13:41:04 | <int-e> | It is a bit tricky... you're in danger of counting 1+5 and 5+1 as two different ways of making $6. |
| 13:43:16 | <probie> | I think you end up needing assumptions like "once you've picked $5 you can't pick $1 anymore" so each cell is itself going to be some sort of collection |
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| 13:46:18 | <int-e> | probie: or you can split the computation into stages, one per coin (which is what I did; I'd also do that in imperative code where the `coin` function can be implemented as a single pass over an array, updating in place) |
| 13:47:36 | <int-e> | Or, who knows, maybe you *want* 1+5 and 5+1 to be different. It's not a common choice though in these problems about making change. |
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| 13:55:00 | <yin> | why isn't there WordMap ? |
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| 14:00:10 | <danse-nr3> | yin, you mean? |
| 14:00:47 | <probie> | danse-nr3: (I assume) as opposed to `IntMap` |
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| 14:01:53 | <probie> | and I think it's just historical. `Int` is far more ubiquitous than `Word`. Word is not in the Prelude for Haskell2010 (although it's in GHC's Prelude these days), and I don't think it's even in the report for Haskell98 |
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| 14:04:33 | <yin> | it's awful that we use Int for everything |
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| 14:10:24 | <probie> | You can avoid using it in code that you write. In the particular case of `IntMap`, I think if you're only going to do one, it's a better choice than `WordMap`. You're a lot more likely to need negative numbers than "big" numbers |
| 14:10:53 | <probie> | If the keys are just opaque word-length bitstrings as opposed to numbers, then it doesn't matter if you use `Int` or `Word` |
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| 14:15:38 | <yin> | it matters because if negative numbers don't make sense in your program, Int opens a door for errors. sort of like making illegal states representable |
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| 14:19:48 | <int-e> | > (0 - 1 :: Int, 0 - 1 :: Word) |
| 14:19:49 | <lambdabot> | (-1,18446744073709551615) |
| 14:20:03 | <int-e> | (you're open to errors anyway) |
| 14:21:12 | <yin> | that's not an error, it's the expected result |
| 14:21:42 | <int-e> | well that can be said for both results |
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| 14:22:26 | <yin> | yes |
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| 14:24:17 | <int-e> | (I just genuinely don't believe that using Word for Ints that are non-negative would save me from many bugs, and I'd need many more conversions for when I inevitably subtract two of those things.) |
| 14:24:38 | <int-e> | That doesn't mean that WordMap shouldn't exist. |
| 14:24:52 | <yin> | or WordSet |
| 14:25:35 | <int-e> | (It would be largely the same as IntMap, but from{Distinct,}AscList and toAscList would be different.) |
| 14:25:58 | <int-e> | ("the same" in the sense that we can losslessly convert between Int and Word) |
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| 14:29:02 | <probie> | Most of the time I use `Int`, my results aren't going to be above 2^32, and yet I don't reach for `Int32` |
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| 14:34:12 | yin | wishes we could specify ints with arbitrary number of bits |
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| 14:37:51 | <probie> | In Ada, one can do something like `subtype DiceRoll is Integer range 1..6;`. In Haskell you can actually emulate this (especially these days, where you can go `newtype RangedPos (m :: Nat) (n :: Nat) = RangedPos Natural`), but despite "make illegal state unrepresentable" being popular, almost no-one does. |
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| 14:56:00 | <dminuoso> | int-e | [14:24:17] (I just genuinely don't believe that using Word for Ints that are non-negative would save me from many bugs, [...] |
| 14:56:36 | <dminuoso> | Especially in the Haskell world, there is a lot of people spending a lot of time in building techniques to thwart imaginary bugs. |
| 14:57:42 | <dminuoso> | Effect system come to mind in particular. |
| 14:58:12 | <dminuoso> | In some sense its the result of Haskell being a playground. Once you play long enough with a hammer, you start seeing nails. |
| 14:58:30 | <dminuoso> | So curious research turns into obsession. |
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| 15:01:11 | <Hecate> | §25 |
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| 15:04:49 | <int-e> | dminuoso: This kind of stuff is great for writing academic papers (where you can focus on one issue and go wild with developing a design pattern that solves that issue once and for all, without looking too closely at the cost). And Haskell does have an academic bias. |
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| 15:06:26 | <int-e> | I don't even mean this as a slight... it's the nature of academia to investigate such ideas... and on occasion we'll come up with something that's useful in practice. |
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| 15:17:22 | <EvanR> | Word introduces another potential bug, namely when you go back to an API that needs an Int |
| 15:17:33 | <EvanR> | it can technically be too big, then what |
| 15:18:02 | <int-e> | it'll wrap |
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| 15:18:37 | <EvanR> | probably not what thou wanted |
| 15:18:53 | <int-e> | well, maybe |
| 15:19:10 | <exarkun> | I don't think it's Word that introduces that bug |
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| 15:19:22 | <exarkun> | Either the programmer introduces it or they write a program that does what they wanted |
| 15:19:36 | <EvanR> | you stopped negatives but then introduces "too big for Int" ness |
| 15:19:42 | <exarkun> | The type is just what the type is |
| 15:20:01 | <exarkun> | If the type is the incorrect representation of the semantics, yea, there'll be trouble. |
| 15:20:07 | <int-e> | there's a case for types with trapping operations (that fail when they overflow) |
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| 15:20:28 | <int-e> | the Word/Int debate doesn't address overflows at all. |
| 15:20:49 | <dminuoso> | Equating overflow with negative is a bit strange here. |
| 15:20:49 | <monochrom> | This is "does the knife kill people or is it the knife holder" all over again. |
| 15:20:55 | <int-e> | since both types do arithmetic moduloe 2^64 (usually) |
| 15:21:07 | <dminuoso> | Admitting `Int` allows the caller to possibly supply non-sensical values. Word does not. |
| 15:21:22 | <int-e> | modulo-e?! Maybe it's time to change my nick. |
| 15:21:35 | <dminuoso> | The topic of whether arithmatic can overflow has less to do with Int/Word, but more with Num |
| 15:21:58 | <EvanR> | I'm pointing out, alot of times, half of Word is non-sensical by virtue of everything "else" using Int |
| 15:22:33 | <EvanR> | if you just ignore that you could have ignored negative Ints |
| 15:22:58 | <dminuoso> | How is half of word non-sensical, exactly? |
| 15:23:15 | <dminuoso> | Assume something like threadDelay |
| 15:23:27 | <int-e> | I worry about Word when I actually deal with numbers in the 2^63...2^64-1 range *and* want to avoid the overhead of using Integer. |
| 15:23:30 | <EvanR> | assume you get what I'm saying |
| 15:23:33 | <exarkun> | EvanR: Half of Word might be nonsensical _with respect to_ Int-using functions. |
| 15:23:49 | <exarkun> | EvanR: What does that make half of Word with respect to Word-using functions? |
| 15:23:54 | <monochrom> | That's EvanR's point. |
| 15:23:58 | <EvanR> | that's my point |
| 15:24:12 | <int-e> | It's an Int-eat-Word world. |
| 15:24:12 | <monochrom> | Prelude is full of Int-using functions. |
| 15:24:14 | <dminuoso> | That just means any Int-to-Word migration requires widespread adoption to make sense. |
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| 15:24:20 | <monochrom> | haha int-e |
| 15:24:21 | <dminuoso> | It doesnt invalidate Word in itself. |
| 15:25:22 | <dolio> | What is the point of this conversation? |
| 15:25:28 | <exarkun> | ByteString can only carry bytes from 0 to 255, whereas Char can go much higher. |
| 15:25:33 | <exarkun> | Therefor most of Char is nonsense. |
| 15:26:10 | <monochrom> | I think this is just another endian war. |
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| 15:27:13 | <EvanR> | B avoids the issue elegantly by not having a distinction between Int and Word |
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| 15:28:58 | <int-e> | > length $ iterate (\s -> s <> s) (Seq.singleton ()) !! 63 -- before you scream "we should use Word" consider what happens at iteration 64 :-) |
| 15:29:00 | <lambdabot> | -9223372036854775808 |
| 15:29:33 | <dolio> | Seq is just broken. |
| 15:29:51 | <int-e> | it has... limitations |
| 15:29:55 | <int-e> | it's also useful |
| 15:30:23 | <dolio> | Yeah, that case is not particularly important. |
| 15:31:05 | <int-e> | it's really more of a case of Seq being too good at what it does (efficient implementation of finite sequences) |
| 15:31:13 | <EvanR> | > length $ iterate (\s -> s <> s) (Seq.singleton ()) !! 64 |
| 15:31:15 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 15:32:14 | <EvanR> | <> is lazy? |
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| 15:33:12 | <monochrom> | Yeah I think Seq's <> is lazy in the data structure. And it keeps a size field that doesn't require traversing the whole data structure. |
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| 15:33:50 | <probie> | It's a 2-3 finger tree right? |
| 15:34:30 | <monochrom> | Hey that's a good lazy evaluation question to put on my exam! |
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| 15:37:23 | <EvanR> | "you can imagine Seq is defined data Seq a = Empty | a :<| !(Seq a) which means many operations on sequences are stricter than those on lists" xD |
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| 15:37:50 | <EvanR> | propaganda |
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| 15:41:04 | <int-e> | <> doesn't have to be lazy for this to work |
| 15:41:13 | <int-e> | there's a lot of subtrees that can be shared. |
| 15:42:02 | <int-e> | I mean, (<>) fully evaluated is O(log(n)) time; it can't allocate more than O(log(n)) space in that time. |
| 15:42:42 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 15:42:52 | <int-e> | So iterate (\s -> s <> s) (Seq.singleton ()) !! n will take up quadratic space in n. It can only represent 2^n elements with a lot of sharing. |
| 15:44:50 | <int-e> | (It could be fun to look at the actual graph, say, for n = 10... I imagine that it could be rather messy) |
| 15:45:37 | <int-e> | (soo many digits) |
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| 15:49:51 | <dolio> | Yeah, it'll be a lot more complicated in Seq because it's not just gluing them together with a node. |
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| 19:31:51 | <hippoid> | i'm trying to use tasty and the awk-like patterns to specify which tests i want run. the docs use '> ./test ...', but where do I get this executable test? also, is it possible to pass the patterns just using 'cabal test ...'? |
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| 19:43:44 | <exarkun> | hippoid: maybe you want something like `cabal run tests -- [tasty args]` |
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| 19:53:39 | <geekosaur> | cabal test --test-options="..." (I think) |
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| 20:00:36 | <exarkun> | I think that also kind of works, but it's kind of annoying to have to double-quote everything |
| 20:00:53 | <exarkun> | `cabal run tests` also has downsides, they're just different :) |
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| 20:19:30 | <hippoid> | i got it to work like `cabal run test:tests -- -p '$0=="folds.foldr."'`, as my test stanza in cabal is named tests |
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