Logs on 2023-08-10 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:20:36 | <tabaqui> | Hi, all! I have a question about kinds. Imagine, that I have "type family X a :: Type -> Type", and I want to create such instance of it: "type instance X Int = \a -> Int -> Maybe a". I know that Haskell currently has no type lambda types yet, but is it possible to use at least type composition like this: "type instance X Int = ((->) Int) . Maybe"? |
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| 00:36:37 | <[Leary]> | tabaqui: Only if you can accept a layer of newtype wrapping. Options include `Compose ((->) Int) Maybe` and `ReaderT Int Maybe`. |
| 00:38:34 | <tabaqui> | [Leary]: Yeah, I've been considering this. I'd prefer more transparent interface |
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| 00:52:34 | <rselim> | @src seq |
| 00:52:34 | <lambdabot> | Source not found. I feel much better now. |
| 00:52:41 | <rselim> | can seq be implemented in pure Haskell? |
| 00:53:32 | <geekosaur> | no |
| 00:54:10 | <[Leary]> | Unless you count GHC2021 as "Haskell". |
| 00:54:10 | <geekosaur> | in early versions of Haskell it was done via a typeclass; iirc functions didn't work right with that |
| 00:54:56 | <EvanR> | seq = #seq |
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| 00:58:19 | <Square> | Im trying to use "class Monad m => MonadReader r m | m -> r where ..." for my "newtype MyReadF e a = MyReadF { runReadF :: e -> a } type. So I have "type MyRead = Free MyReadF". There is "instance [safe] (Functor m, MonadReader e m) => MonadReader e (Free m)". But that looks as if MyReadF needs to implement MonadReader, and the requires MyReadF to be a Monad. But only MyRead is a Monad. I'm confuesed. |
| 00:59:03 | <Square> | s/and the requires/and it requires/ |
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| 01:03:52 | <Square> | I mean "Free MyReadF" is a monad, but MyReadF isn't. But the instance "MonadReader e (Free f)" would require the latter, it looks like. |
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| 01:12:49 | <[Leary]> | Square: Don't you want `Free (MyReadF e)`? That could be a monad. |
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| 01:13:07 | <rselim> | thanks, interesting |
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| 01:14:13 | <Square2> | (had to change computer, incase someone replied to my question) |
| 01:15:35 | <[Leary]> | Check the logs. |
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| 01:16:44 | <Square2> | I'm afraid I might have missed it in that case, had 1-2 minutes of disconnect |
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| 01:30:16 | <EvanR> | public logs linked in the topic |
| 01:34:21 | <Square2> | EvanR, thanks. [Leary], right exactly. Typo. |
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| 05:05:11 | <NewtonTrendy> | is haskell considered a general purpose language? |
| 05:05:33 | <monochrom> | Yes. |
| 05:06:10 | <NewtonTrendy> | also id like to know if theres a haskell package manager for libraries and if theres and interpreter i can go haskell filename |
| 05:06:42 | <NewtonTrendy> | but i will go look this up i guess |
| 05:06:44 | <NewtonTrendy> | thanks |
| 05:08:41 | <NewtonTrendy> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/l9p8gz/piplike_package_management_for_haskell/ first answer only has 48 upvotes |
| 05:08:52 | <NewtonTrendy> | answers both questions |
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| 05:10:42 | <probie> | NewtonTrendy: whilst that answer is relevant, be careful when googling with questions about Haskell tooling - a lot has changed (for the better) in the past 5 or so years |
| 05:11:09 | <NewtonTrendy> | thanks for the heads up |
| 05:11:46 | <NewtonTrendy> | if there is one thing that will make me more excited to learn haskell (coming from python exclusively) and make it simpler, what is it? |
| 05:12:22 | <NewtonTrendy> | how does the term tooling mean in haskell in general, its not a term ive seen used frequently before |
| 05:13:57 | <rselim> | is "liftA2 ($)" perfectly legitimate? i remember there being something *weird* about ($) |
| 05:14:37 | <probie> | The only weird thing about `($)` is that its type is more general than what is shown when you |
| 05:14:41 | <probie> | :t ($) |
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| 05:14:41 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> a -> b |
| 05:15:05 | <probie> | `liftA2` has already restricted the type to what is shown there, so you don't need to worry about it |
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| 05:17:09 | <probie> | `($)` is levity polymorphic in the second argument (i.e it can be something that isn't in `Type` like an unlifted type or an unboxed type) |
| 05:18:24 | <Square2> | NewtonTrendy, build-tools, IDE's, documentation helpers, etc. |
| 05:18:50 | <probie> | s/is levity polymorphic in the second argument/is levity polymorphic/ |
| 05:20:35 | <probie> | Sorry, I'm half asleep (a constant state of mine it seems). In `(a -> b) -> a -> b`, the `b` is allowed to have any representation (more concretely `forall (r :: GHC.Types.RuntimeRep) a (b :: TYPE r). (a -> b) -> a -> b`) |
| 05:27:28 | <rselim> | thanks probie |
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| 10:03:38 | <lortabac> | I need to add an import to every module in my project. Is there a tool that I can use to automate the process? |
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| 11:15:49 | <merijn> | lortabac: Not that I know off. I will usually have, like, a project-specific "prelude" that re-exports all such universal things and import that in every module, which simplifies that kinda thing, but that doesn't help you *now* :p |
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| 11:18:44 | <lortabac> | merijn: our custom prelude is called Prelude and we use base-noprelude to import it implicitly. I want to get rid of base-noprelude and import our prelude explicitly in every module |
| 11:20:13 | <xerox> | sed/awk? :) |
| 11:20:57 | <lortabac> | xerox: do you know how to write a Haskell parser in sed? :) |
| 11:21:42 | <Hecate> | lortabac: backpack with Cabal's mixins should do it |
| 11:22:02 | <lortabac> | Hecate: good idea! |
| 11:22:07 | <Hecate> | lortabac: https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/relude#mixins |
| 11:22:10 | <Hecate> | check this out |
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| 11:23:57 | <lortabac> | Hecate: you saved me from editing 508 files manually |
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| 11:30:13 | <Hecate> | lortabac: buy me a beer next you're in Paris |
| 11:30:14 | <Hecate> | :p |
| 11:31:22 | <lortabac> | Hecate: deal :) |
| 11:31:46 | <merijn> | Hecate: Do they even have beer in paris? ;) |
| 11:32:25 | <Hecate> | merijn: the finest belgian beer |
| 11:33:23 | <merijn> | Hecate: The finest Belgian beer goes north to NL ;) Last time I was skiing in France one of my colleagues got so frustrated by the inadequate beer tapping skills of the France stuff he ended up giving an impromptu "how to pour a beer" workshop :p |
| 11:34:07 | <Hecate> | merijn: well the french-speaking immigrants of Belgium in Paris have also brought their beer ;) |
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| 11:36:24 | <lortabac> | TBH my beer-drinking skills are extremely low, they can serve me fruit juice and I'd probably not even notice :) |
| 11:37:06 | <merijn> | lortabac: That's called kriek ;) |
| 11:37:23 | <merijn> | Or lambic :p |
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| 11:37:46 | <lortabac> | haha now I'm curious to taste it |
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| 11:38:47 | <merijn> | lortabac: It's essentially beer where fruit (usually some form of cherry, but apple, etc. works too) is mashed into the malt, so you get, like, co-fermentation of beer and some kind of cider. Great for hot summers |
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| 11:41:47 | <gensyst> | Creating a Map k v is O(nlogn) as you know. Just to confirm, creating a nested map Map k1 (Map k2 v) is just O(n1*log(n1) + n2*log(n2)), right? |
| 11:42:22 | <yin> | how does the implicit import of Prelude work exactly? if we locally verndor a library called "base" with a Prelude module what happens? |
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| 11:42:49 | <merijn> | yin: I would say "don't do that" :p |
| 11:43:03 | yin | is doing thatr |
| 11:43:11 | <c_wraith> | there's very little issue creating your own prelude. But try to avoid creating package name conflicts. |
| 11:43:16 | <merijn> | When I say a "project specific prelude" I just explicitly import that module and don't mean "have it implicitly imported everywhere" |
| 11:43:48 | <merijn> | c_wraith: I mean, the main thing is that you can get 99.99% of the benefit of a custom Prelude at 0 downsides if you just include one line in every module ;) |
| 11:44:05 | <merijn> | So I would strongly recommend *that* over trying to get your own stuff implicitly loaded as Prelude |
| 11:44:13 | <c_wraith> | you don't get exporting *less* than Prelude that way |
| 11:44:39 | <merijn> | c_wraith: Easily solved by 1 extra line ;) |
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| 11:44:53 | <c_wraith> | a very very long line.... |
| 11:45:03 | <merijn> | "import Prelude ()" should hide everything other than classes in Prelude |
| 11:45:37 | <merijn> | And hiding the Prelude classes should, imo, be a niche thing |
| 11:45:46 | <c_wraith> | instances, not classes. |
| 11:46:05 | <c_wraith> | And anyway, I don't like NoImplicitPrelude. It gets weird. |
| 11:46:07 | <merijn> | eh, yeah |
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| 11:47:27 | <merijn> | ok, so explicitly importing a custom Prelude gets you 95% of the benefit and adding "import Prelude ()" get's you another 4.99% benefit. And if you need more than that, then I hope the gods have mercy on you for your foolishness ;) |
| 11:47:53 | <c_wraith> | I mean, or you could get the exact same behavior with 0 lines per file |
| 11:48:04 | <c_wraith> | So I don't know what "bad thing" you mean |
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| 11:58:02 | <danse-nr3> | oops gensyst left before i could try an answer |
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| 14:10:10 | <gensyst> | Creating a Map k v is O(nlogn) as you know. Just to confirm, creating a nested map Map k1 (Map k2 v) is just O(n1*log(n1) + n2*log(n2)), right? |
| 14:11:21 | <gensyst> | n1 number of keys in outer map, and n2 the usual number of keys in one of the inner maps |
| 14:12:28 | <opqdonut> | more like O(n1*log(n1) + n1*n2*log(n2)) |
| 14:12:36 | <opqdonut> | since there are n1 inner maps |
| 14:13:04 | <opqdonut> | but yeah, the outer and inner maps are independent so you can just naively sum the big-O complexities |
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| 14:13:45 | <gensyst> | second question, would you say Float/Double keys would be quite a bit faster than ByteString (serialized Float/Double) keys? |
| 14:13:58 | <geekosaur> | a lot less reliable though |
| 14:13:59 | <gensyst> | i guess, so. but how much approx? orders of magnitude? |
| 14:14:22 | <geekosaur> | FP inaccuracy will be poised to bite hard |
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| 14:14:58 | <merijn> | geekosaur: What? Why would they be less reliable than their bytestring serialised equivalent? |
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| 14:15:32 | <opqdonut> | gensyst: best to measure for your use case |
| 14:15:39 | <opqdonut> | the difference won't be big, I think |
| 14:15:42 | <geekosaur> | you can truncate the low bits off the bytestrings; try that with a Double |
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| 14:17:50 | <opqdonut> | Double keys are totally fine if you don't do arithmetic with them |
| 14:17:53 | <merijn> | The question was "Double as key" vs "ByteString serialisation of a Double as key", no? |
| 14:17:57 | <opqdonut> | I mean if you just use them as opaque identifiers |
| 14:18:03 | <merijn> | In which case Double is obviously better |
| 14:18:46 | <merijn> | There's nothing inherently unreliable about Double as key for a Map |
| 14:19:05 | <opqdonut> | I guess even arithmetic is fine as long if you don't expect reliable lookup. Maybe you just want some objects sorted by their x position or something. |
| 14:19:10 | <merijn> | well, maybe trying to insert/look up NaN will turns everything to shit, but "Just Don't Do That, Then" |
| 14:19:35 | <gensyst> | merijn, "obviously better", how better? :) |
| 14:19:44 | <merijn> | opqdonut: I mean, if your arithmetic is deterministic and you are willing to invest a bit of effort even that can work |
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| 14:19:56 | <merijn> | gensyst: Double takes up less space and I would assume the comparisons to be faster |
| 14:20:46 | <gensyst> | merijn, the comparisons ought to be crazily faster right? as in just one CPU instruction or something, compared to byte-by-byte comparisons |
| 14:20:55 | <opqdonut> | merijn: yeah, quite a bit of effort since you can't rely on associativity |
| 14:21:15 | <opqdonut> | but for a niche use case it might be good |
| 14:21:17 | <merijn> | opqdonut: Associativity is irrelevant if your computation is deterministic (i.e. same operations in same order) |
| 14:21:23 | <merijn> | gensyst: yes |
| 14:21:31 | <gensyst> | nice thanks |
| 14:21:48 | <merijn> | opqdonut: You will have to fiddle with the FP configuration of the process, though. So that's some setup effort to deal with |
| 14:22:11 | <opqdonut> | merijn: yeah I understood you, I was just thinking that having something like k1+(k2-k1)=k1 would be pretty useful in the cases I can imagine |
| 14:22:22 | <merijn> | (since by default Intel machines use 80 bit FP that gets truncated on store |
| 14:22:24 | <merijn> | ) |
| 14:22:31 | <merijn> | So then your FP result depends on scheduling |
| 14:22:41 | <merijn> | but in FP strict mode it is always deterministic |
| 14:22:59 | <opqdonut> | right, I had actually forgotten about that |
| 14:23:15 | <opqdonut> | such a weird design |
| 14:23:51 | <merijn> | Knowing obscure minutiae like that is how you get the big bucks ;) |
| 14:23:58 | <merijn> | (not that I get the big bucks...) |
| 14:29:57 | <gensyst> | merijn, if you ask for a raise you'll get it. guaranteed. as in 2x salary overnight. mark my words. |
| 14:30:04 | <gensyst> | your mad skills are rare imo |
| 14:33:48 | <merijn> | gensyst: I start a new job next month, so I already did that ;) |
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| 14:40:37 | <int-e> | ...and then somebody uses SSE for floating point arithmetic and suddenly it's 64 bit floats :-/ |
| 14:43:21 | <gensyst> | merijn, congrats man |
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| 16:01:28 | <danse-nr3> | the new `mig` library looks very interesting, but the name is not precisely friendly :-/ |
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| 18:00:15 | AlexNoo_ | is now known as AlexNoo |
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| 23:54:57 | <jobhdez> | hello you all; hope all is well. is servant the way to go if i want to build restful apis, full stack web apps with a js frontend and haskell backend? |
All times are in UTC on 2023-08-10.