Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-08-11 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:57 <jackdk> The `servant-*` family of libraries are excellent and stable, and especially good for APIs. I dunno how good they are if you're doing more traditional webapp stuff
00:02:58 <jackdk> https://bradparker.com/posts/servant-types jobhdez I like this article which steps through all the typelevel stuff which makes it work
00:03:37 <hpc> a webapp actually is just an api, nowadays
00:03:44 <mauke> nothing restful about it, though
00:03:52 <hpc> so basically just use servant and your backend is done, with some static-hosted thingy for the frontend
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00:06:51 <jobhdez> oh ok, thanks. thanks for the article jackdk
00:07:28 <jobhdez> hows the haskell job market for juniors in the US? I want to get haskell job
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01:39:32 <EvanR> hpc, an API that calls out to ruby on rails?
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04:57:37 <danse-nr3> good morning #haskell
04:58:16 <Lycurgus> yello danse-nr3
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12:46:52 <danse-nr3> IsList is monomorphic, right? Wondering why ... makes me struggle to write a version of zipMatch that works for IsList instead of using Matchable
12:50:05 <int-e> danse-nr3: it allows things like instance Unbox e => IsList (Vector e)
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12:51:56 <danse-nr3> does that mean "if `e` is Unbox, `Vector e` is IsList"?
12:52:50 <int-e> yes
12:55:04 <int-e> Oh here's a purely monomorphic instance: instance IsList IntSet
12:55:58 <danse-nr3> yeah this makes more sense to me
12:57:59 <danse-nr3> thanks int-e
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13:24:31 <probie> danse-nr3: Are you trying to write something like `zipMatch :: (IsList l, IsList r, IsList res, Item res ~ (Item l, Item r)) => l -> r -> Maybe res`?
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13:32:39 <danse-nr3> oooh
13:33:00 <danse-nr3> great! Thanks probie!
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13:48:23 <danse-nr3> ugh ... that is not type-safe because NonEmpty is an instance of IsList and when combined with a different instance could cause a compile time error
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13:50:03 <danse-nr3> i would be satisfied with having the same instance of IsList on both arguments, so that a NonEmpty can be used only with another NonEmpty, but again monomorphism does not make it clear how to do that. Maybe `IsList l ~ IsList r`? I doubt it
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13:50:44 <danse-nr3> sorry, a runtime error that is
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13:53:59 <danse-nr3> it cannot be `IsList l ~ IsList r`, i would need equality just about the higher order type
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13:55:44 <probie> danse-nr3: `zipMatch :: (IsList (t a), IsList (t b), IsList (t (a, b)), Item (t (a, b)) ~ (Item (t a), Item (t b))) => t a -> t b -> Maybe (t (a,b))`
13:56:58 <danse-nr3> err ... amazing, thanks
13:57:43 <danse-nr3> had not really seen that possibility ... not sure how to learn better about these kind of problems
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14:05:19 <[Leary]> % :t \xs ys -> fromList (zip (GHC.Exts.toList xs) (GHC.Exts.toList ys))
14:05:19 <yahb2> \xs ys -> fromList (zip (GHC.Exts.toList xs) (GHC.Exts.toList ys)) ; :: (Item l1 ~ (Item l2, Item l3), IsList l1, IsList l2, ; IsList l3) => ; l2 -> l3 -> l1
14:05:36 <[Leary]> danse-nr3: I don't know why you expect a runtime error.
14:06:20 <danse-nr3> no, you are right actually. Since the lengths are checked, that should not happen
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14:07:38 <probie> [Leary]: Assuming I interpreted the question correctly, it needs to be a `Nothing` if the lists aren't the same length, so it's slightly more complicated
14:08:14 <danse-nr3> yeah but still, if one of them is a NonEmpty, the other will not be zipped when null
14:08:34 <danse-nr3> had not thought that through
14:09:17 <probie> For the first type I gave, you could write something like `zipMatch ([] :: [Int]) ([] :: [Int]) :: Maybe (NonEmpty (Int, Int))` which would be equal to `Just (error ...)`
14:09:19 <[Leary]> That's just a matter of switching out `zip` for the original `zipMatch` (or a self-rolled equivalent for []) and the outer application with an fmap.
14:11:52 <danse-nr3> probie's solution is intriguing. I tried it with slightly different combinations and got a "could not deduce" error (i will write some instances afterwards). I found the phrasing a bit confusing, because i thought i was adding a constraint that did not need to be deduced
14:12:33 <danse-nr3> examples: `(Item (t0 c) ~ Item (t0 (a, b)))` or `(Item (t0 c) ~ (Item (t0 a), Item (t0 b)))` could not be deduced
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14:16:54 <danse-nr3> i guess that "could not deduce" means that those types do not make sense in combination with the others
14:19:25 <danse-nr3> basically before you had `IsList c` but when wrapping with `t` it seems to also need the tuple to be explicit
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14:24:01 <danse-nr3> hum no i managed to get a "could not deduce" also with an explicit tuple ... i guess i should just practice more with these kind of constraints
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14:29:54 <geekosaur> those `t0`s make me think something is not unifying that you think should
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14:32:00 <danse-nr3> good point
14:32:55 <danse-nr3> i am always confused when that happens. If i write `t`, what is the point of interpreting it as anything different?
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14:34:15 <danse-nr3> but ... mmm ... i guess i just need to understand better what is going on. Probably each `t` is a series of `t`s at some point, and then the compiler looks for unification
14:34:17 <probie> If `OverloadedLists` is enabled and you write something like `zipMatch [1..5::Int] [6..10::Int]` you'll get a type error
14:34:47 <probie> (unsure if that's your problem though)
14:35:42 <danse-nr3> uh? With your constraints? My constraints just do not compile ^^:
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14:36:05 <danse-nr3> i do have OverloadedStrings on that file, if that matters
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14:37:07 <probie> With my `(IsList (t a), IsList (t b), IsList (t (a, b)), Item (t (a, b)) ~ (Item (t a), Item (t b)))` constraint
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14:38:39 <probie> OverloadedStrings is harmless here, but OverloadedLists will prevent a concrete type being picked for `t`, which prevents unfolding `Item` which will stop it from being able to satisfy `Item (t (a, b)) ~ (Item (t a), Item (t b))`
14:39:37 <probie> if you want some help debugging the error your constraints give, feel free to throw a link to a pastebin
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14:50:22 <danse-nr3> yes, OverloadedLists, sorry. Turns out my errors were actually due to not having updated the type signature after the constraints, which makes a ton of sense. When reading "could not deduce <constraint> from the context: <constraints>" i thought that the problem was somehow within the constraints themselves and became blind to the actual types. Now i see it can mean also "deduce <constraint> that i found in your <constraints>"
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14:56:50 <danse-nr3> in fact using an opaque `c` like in your first constraints works just fine. Great code, thanks again probie!
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16:00:22 <yin> why is this getting me a "conflicting definitions" error? https://paste.jrvieira.com/1691769597718
16:01:02 <int-e> you can't interleave function definitions
16:01:32 <yin> TIL ty
16:01:56 <int-e> (there's probably no *deep* reason for that)
16:02:07 <yin> i can't think of any
16:02:26 <geekosaur> afaik it just makes it harder for the simplifier to rewrite them into a single definition with a `case`
16:02:58 <geekosaur> although it might be ghc can handle it, but since the Report says "don't do that" they don't bother
16:03:13 <int-e> imagine you have a 100 line module, and you have one function called aux, but forgot about it, and now you add another...
16:03:49 <int-e> and then I'm not sure which case is worse: their types being the same so you use the earlier definition, or their types being different and you getting a total mess of type errors
16:04:06 <int-e> there's also TemplateHaskell to muddy the waters
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16:04:14 <int-e> so... there are definitely reasons.
16:04:33 <int-e> but none of them is fundamental in any way
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16:47:32 <Inst> quick question, can cabal be configured
16:47:42 <sclv> what do you mean
16:47:44 <Inst> to attempt to install required dependencies?
16:48:04 <Inst> like, say, i can get monomer working on windows relatively easily because i know how to screw around with msys
16:48:39 <Inst> but if say, i wanted the cabal to do that for me, would there be options to do that?
16:48:56 <sclv> doing that being "screwing around with msys"?
16:49:33 <sclv> that's outside the scope for cabal. it can check for system dependencies (i.e. non haskell packages that haskell packages link against) but it has no mechanism to install them.
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16:51:21 <Inst> so, would that be stack then?
16:51:56 <[exa]> if the "dependencies" are "operating system packages outside of *ackage", you probably want something more like docker
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16:52:42 <Inst> i guess i'm not really going to commit to that for now; i'd like a Haskell stack where learners can just screw around with a GUI package
16:53:06 <Inst> for windows users, 1-click/command gloss / gi-gtk / monomer is pretty important
16:53:14 <Inst> same with 1-click hmatrix, etc
16:53:52 <[exa]> somehow this is 1-click on most linux distros :D
16:54:14 <[exa]> (anyway sorry this was not helpful :D )
16:55:03 <[exa]> there were some visualstudio packages that did something similar, was the thing called nuget?
16:55:33 <[exa]> but I think that got carried by M$ folks all the way over to dotnet-only stuff
16:58:02 <geekosaur> stack doesn't install OS deps either
16:58:16 <geekosaur> there are too many ways to do it and too many different package names
16:58:28 <EvanR> there's Setup.hs right
16:58:32 <geekosaur> and it usually requires sudo access which you should not give to stack or cabal
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17:09:49 <Inst> hmmm, maybe a better way would be for cabal packages to include a bash script that's user readable
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17:17:40 <yushyin> and the bash script contains what exactly?
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17:20:58 <EvanR> if cabal can negotiate the gtk-verse to build gtk bindings, it can do anything
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17:25:33 <int-e> EvanR: I don't know, it needs quite a bit of help: https://github.com/gtk2hs/gtk2hs/blob/master/tools/src/Gtk2HsSetup.hs
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17:33:26 <sclv> Inst: my advice would be yeah, include bash/powershell/whatever scripts for platforms to install external deps
17:33:47 <Inst> but cabal can potentially support it
17:34:11 <Inst> i.e, provide a link to the powershell / bash etc script to do some minimum config work, don't make it plug and play for security purposes
17:34:32 <sclv> gtk2hs and etc all still require the system libs be already installed, eg https://github.com/gtk2hs/gtk2hs/tree/master
17:34:33 <Inst> wait, can cabal do this already? I.e, display messages on install attempts?
17:35:20 <sclv> no cabal has no custom error msgs on failures
17:35:37 <sclv> you just should put a link in the docs to a file with the commands the user needs to run
17:38:15 <geekosaur> but even that's fraught as they will depend on platform/distro
17:38:25 <geekosaur> and whether they use nix or not, etc.
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17:39:10 <int-e> https://github.com/gtk2hs/gtk2hs/blob/master/tools/src/Gtk2HsSetup.hs#L547-L559 is funny... because while I'm sure that this was once part of every gtk2hs package, now it's part of gtk2hs-buildtools itself.
17:39:38 <int-e> (well there's still the PATH aspect which remains relevant)
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17:54:56 <EvanR> gtk2hs-buildtools... groovy
17:55:26 <EvanR> ok good, it doesn't depend on gtk2hs-buildtools-buildtools
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18:44:17 <Inst> cool, finally got gi-gtk to install
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18:54:04 <EvanR> Inst, are you doing something with GTK?
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19:01:03 <Inst> well, trying to build a conway's game of life there
19:01:15 <Inst> and turn it into a haskell intro tutorial
19:01:38 <EvanR> so you want to learn haskell, first install GTK bindings
19:01:48 <Inst> i've had an obsession for the last 2 months for something like "Big Book of Small Python Projects", but for Haskell, and composed of tutorials teaching as much Haskell as needed per project
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19:02:11 <EvanR> you might do better using text mode graphics for that
19:02:16 <Inst> Windows.
19:02:17 <EvanR> or gloss
19:02:18 <Inst> Uhhh
19:02:20 <Inst> Gloss works
19:02:55 <EvanR> so it's also a haskell-on-windows tutorial
19:02:56 <Inst> gloss afaik, isn't gloss a toy, though?
19:03:24 <Inst> i sort of gave up on monomer after the dev / maintainer didn't want to set up a team for it
19:03:24 <EvanR> toy? game of life?
19:03:45 <Inst> i mean, if you do conway in gi-gtk or monomer, shoudn't the skills be more portable?
19:03:55 <Inst> I just haven't been arsed to set up a widget in monomer that can support console display
19:04:50 <EvanR> I got another one, so you want to write game of life in haskell. First let me introduce you to some category theory: https://kukuruku.co/hub/haskell/cellular-automata-using-comonads
19:05:02 <Inst> yeah i was thinking of that!
19:05:09 <Inst> i don't get comonads yet
19:05:39 <Inst> the basic concept is simple, monads with arrows reversed, i.e, duplicate instead of join, extract instead of pure, same requirement for Functor
19:05:48 <Inst> there's lots of discussion of comonads for GUI but I haven't been able to grok it yet
19:06:42 <EvanR> if you really want gratuitous theory for GUI you might want to look at profunctors
19:06:56 <probie> I'm too lazy to follow the link. Is that one of the ones that's using zippers?
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19:07:28 <EvanR> data Universe a = Universe [a] a [a]
19:07:45 <EvanR> looks like it
19:07:46 <Inst> profunctors, i.e, a datatype that incorporates a functor and a contravariant functor?
19:08:10 <Inst> probably less level of comprehension than comonads with profunctors
19:08:21 <EvanR> a datatype which is a functor in one argument and a contravariant functor in the other
19:08:45 <Inst> also, trashy comonad tutorials are now a thing
19:09:03 <EvanR> lol
19:09:30 <Inst> https://dev.to/mikesol/frontend-comonad-backend-monad-1hfm
19:09:46 <ncf> now that's a URL
19:11:41 <Inst> tbh IO monad unironically is the best introductory to monads because the implementation isn't exposed and doesn't force you into "monads are burritos" idiocy (neither functors nor monads are containers; a monad is just a functor with join and pure operating together as a monoid, a functor, properly endofunctor, is a structure-preserving lifting of a type into the same category of types)
19:12:10 <ncf> their duplicate doesn't typecheck... did GPT write this?
19:12:16 <Inst> i still think starting with proxy is the best intro monad
19:12:26 <Inst> ncf: have you seen eric normand's articles on Haskell?
19:12:32 <ncf> who
19:12:33 <Inst> he literally had foo?
19:12:35 <EvanR> before you leave this cave and go reading monad tutorials, take this one-item checklist "does the post explain abstraction X by focusing on 1 particular example instance and leaving it at that"
19:12:42 <Inst> Eric Normand is a Clojure bigwig
19:13:07 <Inst> big popularizer, I think his formulation of FP (actions, computations, and values) is the most accessible one for mainstream developers
19:13:15 <Inst> but his comments on Haskell are hilarious because they're so silly
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19:13:29 <shapr> I like this one https://www.jerf.org/iri/post/2958/
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19:15:02 <EvanR> so clojure has bigwig's now
19:15:15 <Inst> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/j1nll2/the_user_wizard_scenario_we_start_with_a_haskell/
19:15:31 <Inst> ummm, it had a BDFL in Rich Hinley
19:15:43 <Inst> I respect Clojure, I just think parens syntax sucks, and typed FP > untyped FP
19:15:56 <Inst> both have their merits, but typed FP is just better for day to day use, and typed FP can simulate untyped FP
19:16:18 <Inst> main drawback of typed FP is the conceptual complexity, which is a plus for the Haskell / Idris community
19:16:25 <probie> I mean, Rich Hickey has some interesting ideas. I think he also mainstreamed Haskell-bashing in the Clojure community
19:16:26 <Inst> or just the typed FP community
19:16:49 <Inst> this is the real story of FP langs
19:16:58 <Inst> there are 20 different FP langs that all bash each other / hate each other to some extent
19:17:02 <EvanR> nobody can bash haskell better than haskell users though, no contest
19:17:22 <Inst> because of the internecine conflict, no FP lang achieves critical mass, although F# is doing pretty well
19:17:51 <probie> I hate Haskell with a passion
19:18:01 <probie> it's just that I also hate everything else slightly more
19:18:06 <EvanR> ^
19:19:15 <Inst> ^^
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19:23:33 <EvanR> Inst, eric was a regular in programming meetups in new orleans before covid. I stood in the way of many attempts to bash haskell inappropriately. Much progress was made in appropriate haskell bashing
19:23:52 <EvanR> important to get the bashing right
19:23:56 <Inst> on Twitter:
19:24:34 <Inst> what's the story behind this?
19:24:34 <Inst> https://twitter.com/ericnormand/status/1402591912167628805
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19:25:46 <Inst> btw, the real project i'm focused on right now is building a webapp that can integrate with github
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19:26:12 <Inst> and allow Haskellers to post wishes and commitments for existing and potential libraries
19:26:31 <int-e> Tristan: "I am still to find a beginner friendly way to get into the mystical world of Haskell."
19:26:35 <int-e> hmmm
19:26:44 <Inst> Haskell Phrasebook?
19:26:45 <EvanR> does it translate the haskell code into whatever language that project is written in?
19:26:45 <int-e> (ignore that nick)
19:27:28 <Inst> ummm, thinking about learning persistent and esqueleto for it over servant
19:27:33 <Inst> have some experience with postgre simple
19:28:04 <Inst> int-e: I'm serious, the best way to get into the mystical world of Haskell is to have an equivalent to "Big Book of Small Python Projects" with full tutorials
19:28:09 <EvanR> mapM_ learn allTheThings
19:28:12 <Inst> it'll kill the mysticism quickly
19:28:41 <Inst> i'm wondering if you can rewrite it with forever :: IO a -> IO a instead
19:28:52 <int-e> Inst: There is no best way.
19:29:14 <Inst> i mean, there's actually a lot of "Haskell in 15 minutes" tutorials out there
19:29:24 <Inst> just need to collate them, and learning Haskell TBH is learning the library ecosystem
19:29:31 <Inst> we've made so much improvement in every foible of Haskell
19:29:51 <Inst> someone is working on parallelizing GHC to get 15-35% build time improvements (we already have features for that, but not ergonomic)
19:29:53 <int-e> And I suspect that there's no quick way to learn to appreciate HM types. It /might/ be easier with SML.
19:29:58 <Inst> the tooling is no longer trash
19:30:15 <Inst> there are LOT of great Haskell books out there
19:30:18 <Inst> only problem is ecosystem
19:30:29 <Inst> progress is being made, but slow
19:30:41 <EvanR> what's wrong with ecosystem specifically
19:30:56 <int-e> Anyway, I don't know what to make of that little thread.
19:31:07 <Inst> #1, lib doc sucks, every lib is equivalent to learning a language, #2, ecosystem is patchy in parts and tailored to the existing Haskell userbase, i.e, wizards
19:31:21 <probie> Also, going back half a dozen steps, I haven't really heard much about profunctors for GUIs. Is that just all the old arrow stuff, but now profunctors, because strong profunctors?
19:31:34 <probie> s/strong profunctors/strong profunctors are pretty much arrows/
19:31:49 <Inst> which is the problem for Haskell GUI, we don't have a standard solution for Haskell GUI
19:32:03 <Inst> FRP GUIs, comonadic GUIs, now profunctor GUIs?
19:32:06 <EvanR> I'm kidding mostly, based only on the applemus blog, reactive banana stuff
19:32:36 <Inst> bleh, fuck this shit, i'm isntalling Nix, one day Haskell on Windows won't suck, but I assume we'll get dependent types before then
19:32:44 <int-e> . o O ( and then there's gtk2hs )
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19:33:32 <Inst> couldn't get it to build, or rather, couldn't get gi-gtk to build
19:33:37 <Inst> i might end up nuking my cabal and GHCup again
19:33:38 <EvanR> I kind of can't tell how important windows support is for the health of the haskell tutorial industry
19:33:42 <Inst> just to nuke away the msys
19:34:06 <EvanR> what percent of would be tutorial followers are on windows and not linux
19:34:54 <geekosaur> probably large
19:35:05 <geekosaur> I mean, de facto the world is Windows
19:35:07 <Inst> US-wise, Windows is dying, like around 50-60% market share
19:35:17 <Inst> but globally Windows is pretty entrenched, including Windows XP systems for god's sake
19:35:22 <EvanR> yes human beings on windows greatly outnumbered
19:35:35 <EvanR> outnumbering. But that want to follow haskell tutorials
19:35:47 <Inst> EvanR: more like, trying to develop a new market?
19:36:19 <Inst> point is, Rust keeps on murdering Haskell
19:36:35 <EvanR> I don't see how those are in any sort of competition for anything
19:36:42 <geekosaur> ^
19:36:55 <Inst> in wizard market, you know we lost Hasura, right?
19:37:16 <Inst> important because Hasura is the first (and only, until Juspay or Mercury make it), Haskell unicorn
19:37:28 <EvanR> what are all these names
19:37:29 <Inst> they're rewriting their graphql engine in rust
19:37:45 <int-e> must be startups
19:37:55 <int-e> with "unicorn" being VC lingo
19:37:56 <Inst> Juspay is a 100m+ Indian payments provider
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19:38:08 <Inst> Mercury employs Rebecca Skinner, author of Effective Haskell
19:38:16 <Inst> unicorn means start-up that gets over 1 billion valuation
19:38:22 <geekosaur> VC I would believe
19:38:49 <geekosaur> they force network appliances developed in *BSD to switch to linux and thereby screw up their network stacks too
19:39:06 <geekosaur> meaning VCs are idiots
19:39:18 <geekosaur> who destroy products in the name of quick money
19:39:31 <Inst> does that mean that everyone living in the capitalist world is an idiot?
19:39:34 <Inst> that's basic capitalist logic
19:39:40 <Inst> time discounting
19:40:05 <geekosaur> there is going for the money and there is shooting yourself in the foot
19:40:06 <Inst> it's supposed to be the job of governments and NGOs to have longer time horizons, but we all know how well that works
19:40:08 Inst shrugs
19:40:30 <geekosaur> we're talking products that could have been best-in-class rendered middle-of-the-pack by stupid decisions
19:40:44 <int-e> The idiocy is to look at a startup, see that they're using Haskell or whatever, forget that it's mostly about a vision for a product, people, and luck, and decide that you have to use Haskell too in order to have success.
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19:41:32 <Inst> Haskell is just an enabler, and a problematic one insofar as the quantity of experience for Haskell in production seems relatively scarce
19:41:34 <int-e> (Same for applying that kind of "logic" to *not* using Haskell.)
19:41:35 <EvanR> promote haskell usage, hire the most brilliant functional programmers, then switch everything to java and win xD
19:41:49 <Inst> EvanR: Tikhon Jelvis? :)
19:42:46 <[exa]> I invested precious 5 minutes into skimming over the discourse thread on that topic, what's the problem there?
19:42:52 <Inst> (He was working at Target, he seems to be in the same firm as Edward Kmett now, a start-up, but Target was actually using Haskell for many of their systems. Then they switched CTOs, the CTO wanted mainstream languages on everything.)
19:43:06 <Inst> [exa]: which discourse thread?
19:43:07 <shapr> sounds like my previous Haskell job
19:43:34 <juri_> I'm pleading the 5th.
19:43:35 <geekosaur> footguns for everyone!
19:43:40 <[exa]> https://discourse.haskell.org/t/hasura-migrating-to-rust/6620/34 ... they found the niche, discarded half of their functionality (remember hasura with sparql?) and to squeeze more they just specialize to rust, which is good
19:44:17 <Inst> i mean it's good for them, it's just, rust gives you more performance, more safety, has a larger ecosystem, more desperate rustacaeans than desperate Haskellers
19:44:38 <Inst> erm, not more safety
19:44:45 <Inst> comparable safety
19:45:42 <[exa]> you can't measure safety without knowing the adversary
19:46:04 <[exa]> rust certainly gives more safety against rust programmers' errors. :D
19:46:13 <EvanR> safety = security vs yourself
19:46:27 <[exa]> also good.
19:46:36 <[exa]> anyway this is a happy story I'd say
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19:47:07 <Inst> the lesson i seem to be deriving is that Haskell is powerful and flexible enough for fast prototyping, and if the guys working on Rust FFI get their way, can eventually be used to wrap Rust
19:47:14 <Inst> Haskell should be faster for iteration than Rust
19:47:16 <Inst> which is why:
19:47:27 <[exa]> IMO better than hasura trying to beat the shit out of haskell gc with 10 years of superspecialized hopefullyhelping ducttape patches to ghc
19:48:01 <[exa]> (oh noes apologies for s-word, I thought we're in #offtopic)
19:48:02 <Inst> https://mdwdotla.medium.com/using-rust-at-a-startup-a-cautionary-tale-42ab823d9454
19:48:16 <Inst> https://www.propelauth.com/post/i-love-building-a-startup-in-rust-i-wouldnt-pick-it-again
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19:52:55 <EvanR> choosing the right language for your startup: an iterative process
19:53:49 <int-e> but if your goal is to write software, it's imperative to choose a languag.
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19:55:09 <probie> I probably wouldn't pick Haskell as a language for a startup unless I already developers that I'm happy to write Haskell with
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19:56:22 <probie> This has been on my mind a lot recently, because there's a non-zero chance that in the next few months I'll actually have to make that decision
19:56:59 <Inst> probie: is Haskell, the language and library ecosystem, suited to start-ups?
19:57:08 <probie> s/I already developers/I already has developers/
19:57:11 <Inst> like, is the biggest problem the social factor wherein you can't train Haskellers fast enough?
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19:57:18 <EvanR> Good luck. We're all counting on you.
19:57:31 <Inst> probie: so, what languages are you shopping for then?
19:57:55 <Inst> probie: if the start-up goes belly up (60-80% odds), please write a postmortem for us on a blog somewhere!
19:58:11 <Inst> if you opt for Haskell
19:58:21 <monochrom> I don't think any startup can afford to change language later. Therefore, it is not an iterative process, it is a "the other pasture is always greener" process. :)
19:58:40 <Inst> they can after they've been bought out :)
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19:59:04 <Inst> eric Normand is also sort of weird, backtracking to that subject
19:59:11 <Inst> because he was working on Haskell and JS on Scrive in 2012
19:59:24 <juri_> at the startup i'm working at, we've switched languages for the client teams at least three times.
19:59:32 <Rembane> Inst: Is he going to Rust too?
19:59:35 <juri_> the backend? haskell.
19:59:36 <Inst> a major figure in Haskell community is now in Scrive
19:59:41 <Rembane> juri_: Which languages did you try in the frontend?
19:59:45 <Inst> Rembnae: unlikely, because Clojurians hate static typing
20:00:03 <juri_> Rembane: the only one i know what we moved from is when we moved away from scala.
20:00:03 <edwardk> FWIW- I don't work with Tikhon. He's a friend, I've known him a long time, but we're off doing our own respective things.
20:00:48 <edwardk> Eric Normand dipped a toe in Haskell, but he was pretty much always a Clojure guy.
20:00:56 <Rembane> juri_: Cool.
20:01:30 <Inst> oh, I got confused
20:01:34 <Inst> Positron, stealth start-up
20:01:39 <Inst> he's doing CX Score
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20:02:34 <probie> Inst: Haskell is a language you can iterate very quickly in, and that's of value to a start-up, but it's a lot more work to onboard people. You can't exactly restrict yourself to a simple subset, because the ecosystem doesn't restrict itself to a simple subset
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20:02:38 <Inst> i'm just more confused that Normand worked at Scrive for like 2 years on JS and Haskell and could still get the namespacing wrong
20:04:25 <probie> When a startup fails, I doubt the choice of language was a significant factor
20:04:33 <EvanR> Inst is your startup using haskell?
20:04:39 <Inst> no startup :(
20:04:47 <Inst> i'm interested in the field
20:05:33 <EvanR> do you have a blog where this tutorial series is going to be posted
20:05:50 <Inst> nope, not yet, but tbh, we can just collate all the tutorials others are doing so far
20:05:55 <Inst> was going to post that on discourse
20:06:14 <Inst> my stuff is also going to suck :(
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20:10:11 <juri_> Inst: I've been sucking at haskell for 8 years now.
20:10:30 <EvanR> hear hear
20:10:47 <EvanR> haskell suckers represent
20:10:48 <juri_> chatgpt seems to think i'm some amazing haskeller, but i .. think i recognize edwardk, maybe?
20:11:05 <juri_> tl;dr: i suck, in obscurity.
20:13:51 <Inst> the great part of say, monomer, is that outside of enabling monad comprehensions (should we represent the tic tac toe board with nested lists or a bytestring?), you literally do not need monads for this
20:14:53 <Rembane> What's monomer in this context?
20:15:51 <Inst> some GUI lib, which incidentally works on Windows
20:15:54 <Inst> Elm architecture based
20:16:08 <probie> Rembane: https://github.com/fjvallarino/monomer#readme
20:16:43 <Rembane> Inst, probie: Thank you. Looks fun!
20:16:59 <Inst> does not work on 9.6.2 the last I checked
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20:19:25 <Inst> you almost certainly aren't on windows, Haskell on Windows is so bad I'm installing Nix
20:19:33 <Inst> but:
20:19:33 <Inst> https://github.com/fjvallarino/monomer/issues/258
20:21:24 <Rembane> Seems painful
20:22:00 <Inst> i got used to it, unfortunately
20:22:06 <EvanR> I installed haskell on windows, worked
20:22:14 <EvanR> which part is so bad?
20:22:27 <Inst> well, i have to use an older SDL if I want to get it to work with that library
20:22:37 <Inst> and a lot of GHCI stuff, I think the C FFI is broken?
20:22:47 <Inst> if I try to play around with HMatrix, segfault
20:22:53 <EvanR> SDL is a rapidly moving target right now
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20:23:51 <EvanR> it's major version number is a superposition of 2 and 3, reminiscent of the update from 1.3 to 2
20:24:19 <EvanR> does C FFI normally work from ghci?
20:24:37 <Inst> https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22999
20:24:40 <Inst> older C FFI works
20:24:58 <probie> I would like to be able to write a boring desktop application in Haskell, compile with some magical incantation and get a Windows exe I can send to the end user out the other end. I did that once in Golang and was amazed that it "just worked"
20:25:57 <Inst> i hear that there are GHC developers working on multi-backend stuff for Haskell, including cross-platform development
20:27:33 <Inst> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1139656320618864720/image.png?width=2878&height=1090
20:27:41 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tinyfiledialogs-0.2.1.0/docs/Graphics-UI-TinyFileDialogs.html
20:27:58 <Inst> here, the C FFI is painfree
20:31:18 <EvanR> VisualHaskell Studio
20:33:39 <Inst> whoa
20:34:11 <Inst> i think this is 9.4.6 talking?
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20:39:32 <Inst> hmmm, hmatrix seems to be working on 9.4.6
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20:46:02 <Inst> also, if you guys are interested in mercury:
20:46:03 <Inst> https://growjo.com/company/Mercury_-_Banking_for_Startups
20:46:19 <Inst> 1/10th the revenue of Stripe, which is pretty awesome
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20:47:16 <[exa]> Inst: that's very offtopic
20:48:42 <Inst> i mean Mercury is a Haskell shop
20:48:57 <Inst> https://serokell.io/blog/haskell-in-production-mercury
20:49:31 <Inst> oh, and more importantly, Matt Parsons is at Mercury
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20:55:25 <Inst> hmatrix still crashes on 9.4.6
20:55:49 <Inst> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1139663457923371038/image.png?width=2210&height=976
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21:00:42 <EvanR> the functional-logic language Mercury looks pretty cool, also off topic
21:03:01 <Inst> hey Mercury is a Haskell banner carrier
21:03:22 <Inst> and an applicative-tier donor to Haskell Foundation
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21:05:54 <Inst> okay, but HMatrix works on WSL2 Debian (Win10), thank god
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21:15:25 <EvanR> what are you using hmatrix for
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21:15:44 <anselmschueler> Are there some tools that allow me to generate a man page with my Cabal build? Can cabal install a man page?
21:16:07 <Inst> nothing, it's just a key library and i'm just griping about crappy windows support
21:17:48 <EvanR> ah, in the sense that python is really a conduit for people to use numpy xD
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21:46:24 <justsomeguy> I'm writing out the reduction steps for foldr/scanr and foldl/scanl for practice. What's a good definition of scanl? I don't see one that's written in terms of foldl.
21:47:35 <int-e> > scanl (+) 0 [1..] -- this is lazy, so it can't be a foldl. you /can/ write it with foldr
21:47:37 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2...
21:49:08 <justsomeguy> I found this definition of scanl, but it seems really weird: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/src/GHC.List.html#scanl
21:49:38 <justsomeguy> I guess I just expected scanl to be implemented in terms of foldl.
21:49:38 <int-e> > foldr (\x xs a -> a : xs (x + a)) (:[]) [1..] 0
21:49:40 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2...
21:51:55 <monochrom> scanl is not in terms of foldl
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21:53:02 <int-e> > let scanl f a0 xs = foldr (\x xs a -> a : xs (f a x)) (:[]) xs a0 in scanl (+) 0 [1..]
21:53:04 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,2...
21:53:11 <int-e> (always a fun exercise)
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21:53:51 <int-e> justsomeguy: you could just pretend that `scanlGo` is the actual definition of `scanl`.
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21:54:38 <int-e> The indirection is for internal GHC reasons, having to do with how list fusion works.
21:54:41 <int-e> @src scanl
21:54:41 <lambdabot> scanl f q ls = q : case ls of
21:54:42 <lambdabot> [] -> []
21:54:42 <lambdabot> x:xs -> scanl f (f q x) xs
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21:56:16 <justsomeguy> That does look easier to write on paper :D
21:56:27 <EvanR> justsomeguy, your thing about scanl being implemented with foldl is a great excuse to do an investigation into what foldl and foldr "really do"
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21:57:28 <EvanR> with the intended goal to see why that can't be done and makes no sense
21:58:03 <justsomeguy> That's a good point, EvanR. Thank you for bringing that up.
21:58:07 <EvanR> bonus points for figuring out a plausible story for why they're named the way they are
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21:58:47 <monochrom> That one would be historical reasons and back when people had only thought of lists.
21:59:40 <EvanR> @src scanr
21:59:40 <lambdabot> scanr _ q0 [] = [q0]
21:59:40 <lambdabot> scanr f q0 (x:xs) = f x q : qs
21:59:40 <lambdabot> where qs@(q:_) = scanr f q0 xs
21:59:54 <int-e> monochrom: it still makes sense for foldables
22:00:30 <monochrom> The same way, for example, in lattice theory, things are called "join" and "meet" because they were inspired by "union" and "intersection" as concrete examples. And then now we know that the intuition doesn't actually generalize.
22:00:43 <int-e> it's about "things in a sequential order", not necessarily organized as a list
22:00:58 <monochrom> And even why "rings" are called "rings". (They were only thinking of Z-mod-n rings.)
22:01:05 <int-e> :t fold
22:01:06 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
22:01:48 <EvanR> so fold is assuming some serialization of the structure
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22:02:18 <probie> I think for lists, foldr/foldl were a poor choice of names because it makes them look equal
22:02:21 <int-e> monochrom: and non-integers aren't numbers (Z = Zahlen = numbers)
22:03:06 <monochrom> In fact, all the way back to Ancient Greeks, 1 was not a number either.
22:03:15 <justsomeguy> Just thinking out loud here: I guess the reason I assumed that scanl must be implemented in terms of foldl is because I saw a definition of scanr implemented in terms of foldr.
22:03:22 <EvanR> for finite lists, they are ~~equal~~ symmetric. If you ignore the haskell implementation of list
22:03:45 <monochrom> Its relic is still in English (and I suspect almost all European languages.) "I have a number of wives" you immediately assume it is not 0 and it is not 1.
22:03:51 <EvanR> and performance concerns
22:05:24 <EvanR> when you get into the details foldl and foldr look unrelated and apply to wildly different tasks
22:05:29 <probie> EvanR: That's a rather weak equality. `foldr` is a natural way to collapse a cons list, `foldl` is an artificial abomination :p
22:05:52 <EvanR> I tried to strikeout equal and call it symmetric
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22:06:14 <monochrom> This is why I said it's historical reason way back then when people didn't know what we know today.
22:06:17 <EvanR> i.e. foldr f z = foldl f z . reverse
22:06:45 <monochrom> Not to diminish them. It takes time to discover what's going on deeper.
22:07:22 <EvanR> er, and swap f
22:07:31 <EvanR> flip f
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22:07:55 <probie> > let myFoldl' f z xs = foldr (\x k y -> k $! f y x) id xs z in myFoldl' (+) 0 [1..1000]
22:07:56 <lambdabot> 500500
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22:08:42 <monochrom> Today there are two famous directions of generalization. One is foldr -> catamorphism, which foldl doesn't enjoy, so yeah foldl is inferior in this direction.
22:09:37 <monochrom> But the Foldable direction puts them on equal footing again. Assume finite data structures. Then foldl, foldr, foldMap are expressible in each other.
22:10:15 <EvanR> justsomeguy, you'll probably find a lot of things definable using foldr. Because it is the universal function definer i.e. induction principle for lists. While foldl is this other thing with limited uses
22:10:40 <monochrom> However, it is important to note that no one was thinking Foldable back in the 1960s in Lisp days.
22:10:58 <Rembane> Were they thinking foldl and foldr in the 60s?
22:11:02 <probie> Also, 99/100 you don't want `foldl`, you'll want `foldl'` instead
22:14:17 <monochrom> "Foldable makes foldl great again" >:)
22:14:38 <EvanR> you're thinking Foldable comes with a finiteness implication?
22:14:49 <monochrom> Sometimes.
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22:15:10 <probie> The only function you need is `hylo f g = go where go = f . fmap go . g`
22:15:28 <monochrom> Foldable includes the length method. So maybe actually yes.
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22:16:19 <EvanR> the virtues of Int
22:16:29 <EvanR> generalizations be damned
22:17:18 <monochrom> Heh ultrafiniteness "because it needs to fit into 2^64 bytes memory"
22:17:56 <monochrom> (I don't mind either way in practice.)
22:17:56 <geekosaur> haskell only promises 2^30 iirc?
22:17:58 <EvanR> 2^64 should be enough for anyone
22:18:02 <int-e> We can always reinvent EMS
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22:19:00 <int-e> geekosaur: -2^29...2^29 - 1 for Int, IIRC. Not that it matters in practice.
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22:19:33 <probie> A 30 bit signed int so you've got two bits left over for GC or other tagging
22:19:50 <EvanR> haskell should have doubled down on that and allowed the number of unused bits in Int to be configurable
22:20:21 <EvanR> I'll have 8 unused bits please, for shenanigans
22:20:41 <hpc> in practice you only need 2^24 because of IEEE floating point :D
22:20:49 <monochrom> hahaha
22:21:00 <monochrom> "Is that Javascript?"
22:21:18 <int-e> For 32 bit systems. Yeah.
22:21:24 <int-e> ;-)
22:22:29 <monochrom> When C int was 16 bits in Turbo C.
22:22:49 <EvanR> or arduino
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22:23:33 <EvanR> it's an 8-bit micro, so they took the liberty of emulating 16-bit math for you
22:23:44 <EvanR> enjoy
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22:37:24 <justsomeguy> Manual reduction of folds and scans, not that anyone is interested. https://github.com/kingparra/hpfp/blob/master/10_-_folds/exercises/fold_reductions.txt ; I didn't really grok foldl until I did this.
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22:42:31 <EvanR> do foldl'
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22:42:38 <justsomeguy> Ok!
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22:44:12 <EvanR> and line 79 where you evaluate a foldl is doing case analysis of `l' when it should be analyzing a value
22:44:20 <EvanR> at that point
22:44:29 <justsomeguy> Thanks, good catch!
22:45:15 <int-e> . o O ( Let's talk about seq-s )
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22:46:29 <int-e> @src ($!)
22:46:29 <lambdabot> f $! x = x `seq` f x
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22:50:58 <EvanR> pronounced econo-bang
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23:09:34 <justsomeguy> @src seq
23:09:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. You untyped fool!
23:11:47 <geekosaur> seq is a compiler intrinsic
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23:12:32 <geekosaur> someone the other day claimed it could be implemented with GHC2021, but iirc the problem with such implementations is they try to apply lambdas whereas WHNF of a lambda is defined to be itself
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23:13:40 <justsomeguy> I see that in GHC.Prim seq is defined as seq = seq lol
23:14:06 <geekosaur> GHC.Prim is magic
23:14:27 <geekosaur> everything is defined as itself; the module exists only for documentation and infotable generation
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23:30:23 monochrom prefers automatic execution of frauds and scams.
23:33:04 <monochrom> Yeah the source code "seq = seq" and others (e.g., "lazy = lazy") are placeholders just to make haddock happy. GHC will ignore and replace them.
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23:34:03 <monochrom> The only way I can think of implementing seq in GHC2021 is the anti-climatic bang pattern. Which isn't an enlightening answer.
23:35:03 <monochrom> Most of the time "how to code this up" carries with it "how to explain it in more elementary terms".
23:36:55 <int-e> . o O ( a `seq` b = case a of _ -> b -- but at the core level where `case` always forces the scrutinee. That doesn't really exaplain anything. )
23:38:16 <int-e> For data type values you could do a `seq` b = case a of Con1{} -> b; _ -> b, where Con1 is one of the constructors...
23:38:46 <int-e> ...then there's newtypes to consider and finally abstractions for which I don't think you can accurately match the semantics.
23:39:43 <int-e> > let x a = a `seq` id in x undefined `seq` ()
23:39:45 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
23:42:54 <int-e> > const undefined `seq` ()
23:42:56 <lambdabot> ()
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All times are in UTC on 2023-08-11.