Logs on 2023-08-12 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:35:14 | <Inst> | freaking NixOS |
| 00:35:34 | <Inst> | couldn't get it to install wireless drivers, then it wouldn't install its bootloader |
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| 00:52:31 | <justsomeguy> | Honestly that's why I'm not using NixOS right now -- there are some things I just don't want to configure. (Mostly things related to power management, video card setup, or DE setup.) What I ended up doing was installing Silverblue and Nix on top. |
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| 02:38:21 | <Inst> | every day, a new horror |
| 02:38:32 | <Inst> | so I have nix installed and it's a great Linux distro |
| 02:38:40 | <Inst> | nixos |
| 02:38:56 | <Inst> | but I can't install GHCup, and what's more, I've been messing around with IHP, and I found out that IHP is a whole Haskell toolchain |
| 02:39:05 | <Inst> | so now we have roughly Nix vs GHCup vs IHP |
| 02:39:08 | <Inst> | this is an utter mess |
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| 02:42:39 | <nyc> | I need to learn ghcup & nix. |
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| 02:46:41 | <dmj`> | Inst: why use ghcup if you're on nixos |
| 02:47:01 | <dmj`> | Inst: you already have access to a slew of GHCs from nix, prebuilt |
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| 02:50:36 | <Inst> | dmj`: I'm used to GHCup toolchain management |
| 02:50:42 | <Inst> | it's intuitive and I know it |
| 02:51:06 | <Inst> | "nix-env -i pacman" |
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| 03:03:19 | <EvanR> | I'm curious why ghcup "doesn't work" |
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| 03:04:42 | <Inst> | do you use NixOS, EvanR? |
| 03:05:06 | <Inst> | afaic, maerwald is a hero, it's unreasonable to expect him to build a GHCup fork for NixOS |
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| 03:10:24 | <monochrom> | If "nix vs ghcup vs ihp" is a mess, then what is "ubuntu vs debian vs fedora vs centos vs actually paid redhat vs mint vs gentoo vs arch vs ... 20 more distros"? And what is "freebsd vs openbsd vs netbsd"? |
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| 03:13:33 | <monochrom> | People have freedom. So people actually use that freedom. This is not supposed to be surprising. |
| 03:13:59 | <monochrom> | There are countries that ban such freedom. They don't actually have less of a mess. |
| 03:14:52 | <Inst> | monochrom: linux never took over on desktop |
| 03:14:53 | <monochrom> | s/ban/try to ban/ # this is why |
| 03:15:51 | <Inst> | i don't think linux ever really wanted to take over on desktop, other than a few overly fervant FOSS advocates |
| 03:16:06 | <monochrom> | Windows look like unified but look closer and actually use it without Stockholm syndrome. Its software update story is a mess compared to any chosen linux distro. |
| 03:16:29 | <Inst> | it's questions of scale |
| 03:16:33 | <monochrom> | Because on Windows every app needs its own updater. |
| 03:16:34 | <Inst> | it's scale vs fragmentation |
| 03:16:52 | <Inst> | and every app using its own updater is a mess for the developers, but not for the end user |
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| 03:17:05 | <Inst> | IHP I've really been appreciative and supportive of |
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| 03:17:12 | <Inst> | because of its attempt to make Haskell easier and accessible |
| 03:17:16 | <monochrom> | I am an end user and it is a mess for me. |
| 03:17:47 | <Inst> | tbh i tend to use very few apps so the update story isn't that big of a mess for me |
| 03:18:06 | <Inst> | but now that I found out that IHP is essentially yet another build system, and one that locks you into their ecosystem, I'm less appreciative |
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| 03:19:47 | <monochrom> | The biggest mess being the whole stupid idea that I am not notified of updates when I have nothing else to do. Quite the opposite, I am notified of an update distractingly when I actually need to use the app and in a rush. |
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| 03:20:45 | <monochrom> | Compare to any linux distro where it is not only unified but most importantly it is trivial to pick your daily convenient time so it doesn't get into the way of real work. |
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| 03:25:54 | <monochrom> | The general overarching principle is that if you try to ban freedom then you're saying "one size fits all" which just means the same mess in a different disguise. |
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| 03:27:34 | <Inst> | EvanR: maerwald supposedly said he doesn't want to compete with Nix's native ecosystem of Haskell toolchain management and build tools |
| 03:27:58 | <Inst> | I'd love it if he went to NixOS, but as I understand it, he's busy, and there are bigger priorities for GHCup, if NixOS support were even considered at all |
| 03:28:46 | <EvanR> | so what doesn't work |
| 03:29:46 | <monochrom> | If you're on NixOS then you can simply use nix, no? "Use ghcup on NixOS" sounds to me like "Use rpm on Windows". Am I wrong? |
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| 03:30:52 | <int-e> | monochrom: more like using rpm on Debian, if rpm allowed user-local installations |
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| 03:31:44 | <Inst> | EvanR: well, I'll try to get it working, completely unused to NixOS |
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| 03:32:48 | <monochrom> | Then again I was just speaking of freedom 5 minutes ago, so meh. |
| 03:33:06 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vc7QBgQg |
| 03:33:28 | <Inst> | i guess you emigrated from your home city for ideological reasons? |
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| 03:39:38 | <int-e> | well this sounds fun: https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/6148 (same symptom, no bets on the cause being the same) |
| 03:40:37 | <int-e> | . o O ( You're still in dependency hell but this time it's fractal. ) |
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| 03:57:49 | <hololeap> | I've got people bugging me to get ghcup on gentoo, and I don't really understand why |
| 03:58:09 | <hololeap> | they want to compile ghcup from source, to download a binary ghc? |
| 03:58:39 | <Inst> | doesn't ghcup compile from source anyways? |
| 03:59:08 | <hololeap> | does it? I haven't actually used it except to just see what the interface looks like |
| 04:02:19 | <hololeap> | I understand why people would want ghcup on gentoo since we don't support more than one version of GHC installed at a time, but I don't understand why they would want to go that route instead of just downloading ghcup from haskell.org |
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| 04:09:13 | <EvanR> | I thought ghcup was a shell script |
| 04:09:47 | <EvanR> | not that I would disagree with compiling a shells cript |
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| 04:10:39 | <Inst> | hololeap; it'd be funny if the official ghcup distro on 90% of package managers were simply: "load the shell script from remote" |
| 04:11:43 | <hololeap> | EvanR: no it's a full blown haskell program. i'm looking at it and there's a bunch of dependencies |
| 04:12:26 | <hololeap> | @hackage ghcup |
| 04:12:26 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghcup |
| 04:12:56 | <EvanR> | oh. mad respect |
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| 05:05:29 | <dmj`> | https://xkcd.com/927/ |
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| 05:42:03 | <monochrom> | ghcup started as a shell script. After a few versions' growth, shell script could no longer handle the complexity. |
| 05:42:46 | <monochrom> | ghcup can both download binaries or download source and build. Upon your command. |
| 05:43:55 | <mauke> | yeah, sadly shell scripts are not turing complete |
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| 11:37:29 | <[exa]> | is there any research/recommendations on efficiently embedding haskell-ish code in other languages? In this particular case I'd love to express a Core-like language in something preferably even more stupid than s-expressions, think M4, C preprocessor, and lower, in a form that can still be somehow easily processed to even lower level code (STG-like) |
| 11:37:42 | <[exa]> | s/haskell-ish/fuctional/ |
| 11:39:08 | <Rembane> | [exa]: Is this the right direction? https://www.call-cc.org/ |
| 11:39:37 | <[exa]> | very similar direction indeed :] |
| 11:39:59 | <Rembane> | Sweet! :) |
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| 11:44:43 | <[exa]> | but yeah I was searching more like for a language tool that would be even below scheme |
| 11:45:16 | <[exa]> | some niche between having to really parse the s-expressions and absolute forth madness |
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| 12:12:42 | <probie> | Does anyone know who kindaro on the Haskell discourse is? |
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| 12:44:18 | <probie> | Or alternatively, do any of the admins of the discourse hangout here? |
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| 12:48:32 | <Hecate> | probie: you should make a report on Discourse if you want the admins to see it |
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| 12:52:41 | <tvandinther> | How can I see the output of Debug.trace when running `stack test` ? |
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| 13:11:43 | <Hecate> | tvandinther: I believe you have to tell stack not to eat the stdout |
| 13:11:57 | <Hecate> | there is a cabal test option for this but I am not sure about stack |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-08-12.