Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-08-15 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:13 <Axman6> quidnunc: I'm not familiar with the exercises, what tipics have you covered so far?
00:02:43 <int-e> "bitstream" sounds promising.
00:03:07 <Axman6> one way to complete that exercise might be to compute the products of every number with every number passed in, then sum those, and subtract each number multiplied by itself (a little wasteful but the code will be concise). Have you been introduced to applicatives or monads, particularly with regards to lists?
00:03:38 <Axman6> int-e: indeed it does, thanks
00:03:50 <int-e> (maybe there's a separate support package that provides arbitrary-width `FiniteBits` instances?)
00:04:05 <quidnunc> Axman6: Not much, just patterns, guards, case
00:04:48 <quidnunc> Axman6: Each file usually explains everything you need
00:05:14 <quidnunc> Axman6: No applicatives or monads
00:05:49 <Axman6> quidnunc: can you use sumProducts repeatedly?
00:05:50 <EvanR> I'm guessing list of Bool isn't going to cut it xD
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00:06:05 <Axman6> EvanR: it could for a proof of concept
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00:06:49 <probie> I think this one is meant to be a bit onerous to ensure you use `where` instead of writing one really long line. That said, remember that `a * b + a * c + a * d + a * e = a * (b + c + d + e)`
00:06:50 <quidnunc> Axman6: It's not defined outside of a comment so I don't think so
00:07:23 <EvanR> ah yes the Num laws
00:07:39 <quidnunc> probie: thanks
00:07:54 <Axman6> yeah it could be designed to make you feel the pain of not being able to use lists :)
00:09:09 <Axman6> > let sumProductasFromTheFuture xs = sum (listA2 (*) xs xs) - sum (map (join (*)) xs) in sumProductasFromTheFuture [1,2,3,4]
00:09:10 <lambdabot> error:
00:09:10 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope:
00:09:10 <lambdabot> listA2 :: (a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> [a1] -> [a1] -> t0 a1
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00:09:19 <Axman6> > let sumProductasFromTheFuture xs = sum (liftA2 (*) xs xs) - sum (map (join (*)) xs) in sumProductasFromTheFuture [1,2,3,4]
00:09:20 <lambdabot> 70
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00:09:59 <Axman6> > let sumProductasFromTheFuture xs = sum (liftA2 (*) xs xs) - sum (map (join (*)) xs) in sumProductasFromTheFuture [a,b,c] :: Expr]
00:10:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:129: error: parse error on input ‘]’
00:10:03 <Axman6> > let sumProductasFromTheFuture xs = sum (liftA2 (*) xs xs) - sum (map (join (*)) xs) in sumProductasFromTheFuture [a,b,c] :: Expr
00:10:05 <lambdabot> 0 + a * a + a * b + a * c + b * a + b * b + b * c + c * a + c * b + c * c - ...
00:10:27 <Axman6> ... yeah that's probably right >_>
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00:12:52 <Axman6> I kinda wish Expr had an explicit brackets function for explicitly wrapping an expression
00:16:36 <Axman6> quidnunc: based on the comments in badSum, I think you are probably supposed to try and pull out commen sub expressions like probie said, and get used to definitions referring to each other.
00:17:39 <Axman6> seems like you could have something pretty efficient by first computing the sum of all the numbers then having several expressions of the form xProd = x * (totalNum - x)
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00:18:19 <Axman6> (totalSum* is what I meant to call that imaginary variable)
00:19:46 <quidnunc> Axman6: probie was right, it's not too bad if you just remember to use distributive property http://ix.io/4DuB/haskell
00:21:17 <Axman6> oh right, my idea would double count the pairs. yeah looks pretty clean. Generally I wouldn't indent things that far, just indent the where bt 2/4 spaces, and then definitions by the same amount again
00:22:23 <Axman6> (Or for true pro level industrial haskell, stick the "where" at the end of the first line: foo x = y + z where\n y = ...\n z = ... - gotta conserve those lines of code!)
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00:24:22 <probie> I think the most common I see is 2+2 (where indented 2, following lines indented 2 more). It's interesting because I see that in both code which is otherwise using 2 space indentation and which is using 4 space indentation
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00:25:32 <Axman6> yeah, I believe my last job did that
00:28:22 <Axman6> int-e: packages that use unicode syntax make mildly angry, Bitstream α => (β -> Bool -> β) -> β -> α -> β shouldn't be any harder to read than Bitstream a => (b -> Bool -> b) -> b -> a -> b, but it definitely is
00:29:32 <geekosaur> I don't find it so, but I may use more Unicode than you do
00:30:09 <int-e> Axman6: it's mostly internal, with a few unicode aliases for functions that also have ASCII names
00:30:32 <Axman6> It's just unnecessary, it rarely, if ever, adds any clarity to the code.
00:30:44 <probie> Life hack - instead of α and β use p and р
00:31:02 <Axman6> :look_of_disapproval:
00:31:09 <int-e> I don't particularly like it, but it's not a reason for not using a package as long as I don't have to type Unicode myself.
00:31:19 <EvanR> it might also be a font thing because your alpha looks pretty much like an a here
00:31:49 <int-e> probie: aww, one of them was ASCII
00:31:53 <EvanR> geekosaur is now known as greekosaur
00:32:10 <geekosaur> heh
00:32:38 <Axman6> no, it wouldn't stop me using it, it just annoys me - use an editor that makes things look fancy on your own machine instead of making everyone else (one of the reasons I use Fira Code - I like the ligatures but wouldn't want to force the ones available in unicode on others))
00:33:07 <probie> Axman6: Personally, I'm a slight fan of Greek letters for type variables, and Latin letters for "value" variables, but not enough to use them in code other people have to look at
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00:34:27 <Axman6> I can see how that would be helpful, and would probably be all for it if it was the norm in the community (having a type level a and a value level a, which has type a, sure can be confusing to beginners)
00:34:44 int-e gives probie a lꙮꙮk
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00:35:57 <Axman6> int-e: whatever that was broke my terminal/glirc
00:36:30 <jackdk> Axman6: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
00:36:37 <int-e> tꙬ bad.
00:36:38 <geekosaur> terminal probably
00:36:39 <glguy> Axman6: https://ibb.co/10fbSCt
00:36:56 <glguy> Axman6: My terminal+glirc survived it
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00:37:23 <int-e> my terminal can't show it, actually
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00:37:34 <int-e> (well not with the font it's using anyway)
00:37:47 <probie> What I really want, is for the Prelude to export `∘` as `.`. That's the one "unicode" function I want, because `.` is already being used for other things
00:38:13 <dsal> `.` is used for too many things and some of them are kind of gross.
00:38:29 <Axman6> glguy: https://ibb.co/wszP43C note the missing * after "ftx" (when I wrote my comment, the star was pushed past the l in "lk")
00:38:35 <geekosaur> hexchat was fine
00:38:38 <Axman6> probably a macos terminal or tmux issue
00:39:16 <geekosaur> I think tmux needs an option to do unicode correctly?
00:39:27 <Axman6> possibly...
00:39:43 <int-e> Axman6: I mainly did it because it's a cyrillic letter (though archaic and obscure), like р
00:39:47 <glguy> int-e: could you do it one last time?
00:40:06 <geekosaur> tmux -u
00:40:16 <geekosaur> I don't know what that equates to in tmux.conf
00:40:17 <int-e> Ꙫ
00:40:30 <Axman6> https://askubuntu.com/questions/410048/utf-8-character-not-showing-properly-in-tmux seems to have answers
00:40:35 <glguy> OK, it works in iTerm2 and Terminal.app, so tmux is a good place to look next
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00:41:14 <Axman6> brb then
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00:42:11 <geekosaur> here's lꙮꙮking at you
00:42:30 <int-e> @where look
00:42:30 <lambdabot> I know nothing about look.
00:42:42 <int-e> @where+ look lꙮꙮk
00:42:42 <lambdabot> Done.
00:42:48 <Axman6> I have returned, from the future!
00:42:50 <Axman6> wow, things are even more broken now, amazing
00:42:55 <geekosaur> ow
00:42:59 <int-e> glguy: there, now you don't need me anymore
00:43:09 <glguy> int-e: Aww, that's not true!
00:43:09 <Axman6> https://ibb.co/CKPWdhk
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00:44:09 <int-e> Axman6: that's not *too* bad
00:44:23 <int-e> Axman6: just missing characters and a messed up length calculation
00:44:47 <geekosaur> makes me wonder about your font, but I forget how that works on OS X
00:45:06 <Axman6> Nah it's kinda bad XD https://ibb.co/2cjQ3Bm
00:45:11 <geekosaur> on Linux it'd be either direct font support or fallback fonts; I think it's supported directly in mine
00:45:30 <jackdk> Axman6: sounds like you'd better switch off macOS to get better font rendering `:trollface:`
00:45:31 <glguy> Whatever that's doing, it breaks my test program that uses ncurses 6.4
00:45:33 <int-e> Axman6: But it's good to know that you've retur ed, fr m the future.
00:45:52 <int-e> Axman6: (don't worry, those were spaces)
00:46:05 <Axman6> There were no typos (surprisingly) in that
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00:51:19 <Axman6> @where look
00:51:19 <lambdabot> lꙮꙮk
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00:53:29 <Axman6> yeah still borked
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00:55:11 <glguy> Axman6: https://ibb.co/z5d1kB2
00:56:58 <Axman6> https://ibb.co/Kbz9N5f
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00:58:03 <Axman6> (This is probably a better discussion for #glirc, though I'm also ok with the brokenness and to blame it on macOS)
00:58:10 <int-e> > let ι ∷ ꙮ → ꙮ; ι 𐦂 = 𐦂 in text [ι '🨈'] -- let's break some more terminals
00:58:11 <lambdabot> 🨈
00:58:28 <Axman6> >:(
00:58:31 <glguy> Axman6: I don't think it's glirc's fault, though I'm happy to chat about it there
00:58:46 <glguy> that stuff is working in glirc in iterm2, terminal.app, and inside tmux inside iterm2
00:59:31 <int-e> there's a good chance that it breaks somewhere because there's an RTL character in there.
00:59:43 <int-e> (twice)
01:00:20 <Axman6> my setup is Termina.app -> ssh -> freebsd -> tmux -> glirc, so many places things could go wrong (with some zsh's on both sizes of the connection)
01:00:48 <glguy> neat, I didn't know it ran on freebsd
01:01:09 <Axman6> yeah, has been working for years
01:01:34 <Axman6> I generally assume any haskell stuff will work on unix environments and I'm rarely wrong
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01:14:23 <EvanR> somewhat surprised hexchat displayed all that
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01:32:29 <dsal> I'm not in hexchat, but ꙮ kind of looks like a hexagon to me, so maybe I am.
01:40:21 <int-e> it's scarier when you zoom in
01:43:56 <probie> Be not afraid
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04:03:37 <Axman6> random C question: if you have void f(...);, void g(...);, is it legal to say f(...) { ... if(thing) return g(...); ...}? or would you need to use if(thing) { g(..); return; } to avoid needing the else for the !thing path
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04:05:36 <monochrom> return g(...) is not legal.
04:05:57 <Axman6> yeah, that was my question really
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04:22:40 <Axman6> monochrom: is `g(..), return;` legal?
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04:24:44 <glguy> If only there was a way to know :-S
04:25:29 <Axman6> Yeah i wasn't sure Icould write a valid C file faster than I could get an answer here, I've always been impressed by how much #haskell knows about C
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05:01:31 <Inst> you know you're a sadsack when: you're benchmarking how long it takes for GHCup to deploy a Haskell toolchain on Windows
05:01:39 <Inst> current estimate: 13 minutes on a 2017 Xeon mobile
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05:05:55 <monochrom> I think I already said that it was illegal.
05:07:18 <glguy> <source>:3:10: error: expected expression before 'return'
05:07:18 <glguy> 3 | g(), return;
05:07:46 <monochrom> Err nevermind.
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05:10:53 <monochrom> I have a feeling that "g(..), return;" with a comma in the middle was a typo.
05:11:33 <Inst> cool, only takes 9 minutes, seems to be mostly connection limited
05:11:44 <monochrom> But in case it was not, comma separates expressions, and return is not an expression.
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05:42:11 <glguy> Maybe: g(), ({ return; }); using gcc's statement expressions
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05:50:41 <Axman6> monochrom: no, I mean the comma operator
05:50:44 <Axman6> meant*
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07:48:10 <tomsmeding> Axman6: the comma operator is an operator, and takes two expressions; 'return' is a statement, not an expression
07:48:13 <tomsmeding> you're not in haskell :p
07:49:01 <tomsmeding> (though you are in #haskell)
07:52:15 <mauke> Axman6: return g(...) might be legal in C++ code if the return type is templated
07:52:37 <mauke> (also, 'return' is an expression in perl :-)
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08:31:01 <Inst> please, please kill me
08:31:37 <Inst> spent all day writing my tutorial, then all of a sudden, something goes wrong with the freaking library i'm using, or its dependency tree, etc etc etc
08:32:52 <Inst> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1140925986603540500/image.png?width=800&height=274
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08:40:24 <tomsmeding> Inst: would be a bit unfair to kill you for something that's probably not your fault, wouldn't it? :)
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08:40:50 <Inst> i nuked ghcup to get a fresh install and try to completely guide through the installatino process
08:41:00 <Inst> i'm not sure if i screwed up somewhere, or if ghcup is already setting path environment variables correctly
08:41:13 <Inst> Haskell on Windows, if you're doing ANYTHING off the beaten path, is complete freaking torture
08:41:29 <[exa]> s/Haskell/anything/
08:41:48 <Inst> windows run electron apps perfectly well
08:42:04 <[exa]> Inst: because they basically pack their own operating system :D
08:42:04 <Inst> can we just stop supporting windows or something?
08:42:17 <[exa]> <3
08:42:32 <[exa]> anyway you're not using WSL2?
08:42:42 <Inst> i'm writing this tutorial, and i'm guessing half of the content is based on walking users through how to install Haskell on Windows and get the library toolchain working
08:42:43 <[exa]> I didn't think that it's such a torture with WSL2
08:43:28 <Inst> maybe, but can i build the app outside?
08:43:53 <Inst> it's just a freaking simple tic tac toe app, i'm fairly close to deciding, scscrew it, go learn gi-gtk and do it in gi-gtk instead
08:44:01 <[exa]> ah you want to do GUI stuff, I see
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08:44:16 <Inst> the moment i ghcup nuked, it stopped working
08:44:42 <Inst> it doesn't even run out of the box because GHC windows toolchain doesn't support stack protector
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08:46:55 <Inst> it was working 2 weeks ago, now it won't run because something has gone wrong with its linkage to harfbuzz
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08:52:47 <tomsmeding> which has a beautiful name
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09:17:03 <Inst> no, issue with truetype, tbh, i'm guessing it's probably an issue with windows breaking it on their side
09:17:35 <Inst> i hit a system update recently, possibly might have broken truetype, but until stack protector support comes online on GHC windows toolchain (I'm told this will take a loooooong time)
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09:26:22 <Maxdamantus> freetype is the non-Windows implementation of truetype (and opentype, which is slightly more relevant to the error), so I imagine it wouldn't be Windows itself breaking that.
09:26:33 <Maxdamantus> (not that I have any experience using Haskell on Windows)
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09:28:48 <Maxdamantus> Seems like not only a Windows issue: https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/71680
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09:31:48 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, so presumably it's just using an old version of HarfBuzz and a new version of Freetype.
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12:22:01 <exarkun> Anyone mind looking over my first hackage package release (candidate) and pointing out anything glaringly dumb I did? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tahoe-chk-0.1.0.1/candidate
12:23:12 <jackdk> If you want to test how your haddocks look, you can run `cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage` and then `cabal upload -d -u <hackage user> /path/to/doc/tarball.tar.gz
12:23:47 <exarkun> ah, that sounds like a good idea, thanks
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12:42:39 <Inst> grrr
12:43:02 <Inst> sdl2 on Windows has 2 years to live unless GHC devs fix stack protector support
12:43:25 <Inst> well, i can't drink anymore because my liver is fubared, but I can always drown my sorrows with Arch
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13:01:48 <int-e> this is the kind of complaint that should come with a ticket (I looked and didn't find one)
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13:03:00 <int-e> hmm, maybe https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22999
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13:12:59 <Inst> Yeah, I contacted Tamar Christina with it and he put it up. I've been considering whether or not to post a probable timeline of when the last working SDL2 goes down, but I'm blaming it for why monomer isn't working, i.e, if I do it again, I need to get contemporary msys2 packages to get it to work.
13:13:14 <Inst> In either case, I'm just annoyed, but thanks to Kindaro I came up with a useful project idea.
13:13:46 <Inst> Shouldn't be that hard, it can replace my monomer project in the cookbook
13:14:15 <Inst> Short answer: Change.org doesn't get anywhere because people don't pledge money or time for demands. :)
13:15:07 <int-e> ?
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13:35:05 <[exa]> Inst: that's kindof universal property of changes, right?
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13:45:40 <Inst> https://discourse.haskell.org/t/maintaining-haskell-programs/7166/37
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13:46:54 <Inst> can do it for more than Haskell, and I already have a domain name in sight; it's really cheap
13:47:16 <Inst> I've had this interest in "fixing" FOSS because FOSS is outrageously slow, as well as new modes of economic organization.
13:47:25 <exarkun> wooo blockchain
13:49:09 <Inst> I'm interested in Haier's usage of blockchain to create and enforce internal contracts within their microenterprise network.
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14:47:17 <albet70> :t liftM2
14:47:18 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a1 -> a2 -> r) -> m a1 -> m a2 -> m r
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15:35:40 <ncf> i keep seeing equality constraints that are obviously yoneda'ble, as in `instance i ~ j => Indexable i (Indexed j)` or `instance (c ~ d) => Each (Map c a) (Map d b) a b`. what's the point of this?
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15:37:50 <ncf> lyxia: i feel like you know
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15:52:49 <safinaskar> how to compile this? https://godbolt.org/z/hqvoMroqf
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15:53:05 <safinaskar> i. e. how to pass lambda as argument to type constructor?
15:56:53 <int-e> I think you just don't.
15:56:54 <geekosaur> type level doesn't have lambdas
15:57:33 <safinaskar> lambda here has type "Int -> Int"
15:57:42 <safinaskar> i. e. this is usual lambda on data values
15:58:16 <safinaskar> is there a way to switch to term syntax? Maybe "Y '(\x -> x)"?
15:58:33 <geekosaur> haskell is not dependently typed, at least not yet
15:58:40 <geekosaur> you cannot use term syntax in types
15:59:05 <int-e> you can't demote terms to types either
15:59:14 <safinaskar> i heard i can use apostroph (') to switch to term syntax. is this true?
15:59:18 <EvanR> you can make an identity type family
15:59:24 <EvanR> but not pass it to Y
16:00:19 <geekosaur> it is not true. you can promote constructors with a tick
16:00:22 <safinaskar> geekosaur: int-e: i remember you here in 2015. so all this time you sit here and answer question? thanks a lot for all this job!!!
16:00:29 <geekosaur> you cannot generally switch to term syntax
16:00:36 <safinaskar> *questions
16:01:06 <dolio> You don't need dependent types to have lambda expressions in types. But putting them in there tends to make type inference undecidable.
16:01:21 <int-e> geekosaur: but that's a lie, isn't it... the whole data type gets embedded into the type level, pretty much totally separate from the one at the value type.
16:01:23 <geekosaur> there are a few type families for type level operations, e.g. you cna add type level numbers with the + type family
16:01:39 <int-e> just sharing names
16:02:12 <int-e> in particular, you can't use term-level definitions using that type at the type level; you have to use type families isntead
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16:03:20 <int-e> Oh well. At least that's my mental model of these things.
16:03:54 <dolio> The term and type level have kind of fundamentally different behaviors in Haskell, so it's not super obvious how just lifting up any term level definition to the type level would work.
16:06:00 <geekosaur> int-e: "promoted" is what ghc calls it, so you risk confusion if you don't use the same language, even if it's not quite true
16:06:12 <int-e> There's a benefit to this clear cut: type erasure will always work (with the understanding that class instance evidence can still be values)
16:06:48 <int-e> geekosaur: of course they do :-P
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16:08:10 <int-e> (this is essentially the same quibble as the one I have with reify/reflect)
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16:11:37 <int-e> And "they" are of course type theorists who've never seen a real value in their whole life. I may have some issues to work out...
16:15:40 <EvanR> so vulkans lack ethics and type theorists lack value?
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16:21:09 <lyxia> ncf: you mean this? https://chrisdone.com/posts/haskell-constraint-trick/
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16:22:37 <ncf> oh my yes
16:22:40 <ncf> thank
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16:30:01 <int-e> EvanR: hah it took me until now to realize which vulkans you mean.
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16:31:51 <EvanR> yeah that's not how it's spelled in star trek
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16:32:39 <Square2> Are there any publicly available nix binary caches for haskell tooling and packages available. The publish builds once a year at least
16:32:59 <Square2> That publish
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17:06:13 <ncf> cache.nixos.org
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17:15:33 <Square2> ncf, thanks
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19:51:24 <erisco> I haven't touched Haskell in a few years. We've got dependent types now, right?
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19:52:25 <dolio> No.
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19:52:59 <erisco> Drat. I did nothing and it still isn't here!
19:53:38 <dolio> Just use Idris.
19:54:08 <erisco> well now I don't know if it is Idris or Idris 2 or what's going on
19:54:13 <bratwurst> i couldn't get chez to build on my machine sadly
19:54:20 <dolio> Or agda2hs.
19:54:39 <bratwurst> it's idris2 but it uses chez scheme now
19:55:09 <dolio> Doesn't even idris2 have lots of backends already?
19:55:14 <bratwurst> building chez sucked up every bit of memory and swap on my machine and locked it up
19:55:22 <bratwurst> no idea how to diagnose the problem
19:55:45 <erisco> open case, look for any empty dimm slots, fill those slots
19:57:46 <bratwurst> oh wait, im on a chromebook now, i could use 'apt'
19:57:56 <bratwurst> and there it is yay!
19:58:42 <bratwurst> i lost my main laptop to hard drive failure
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20:11:15 <_d0t> ohai! Question about Servant and context handlers. Can context handlers perform effectful computations in a custom monad with effects propagating into api handlers? Say, a context handler modifies the state in StateT and an api handler then uses those changes.
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20:16:40 <_d0t> I suppose this isn't so, but I'm a bit hopeful someone can prove me wrong.
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20:22:01 <EvanR> erisco, I'm curious what you want to do with dependent types
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20:23:53 <erisco> I am interested to see what the Haskell flavour of them will be. I usually just mess around with silly stuff
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20:24:19 <EvanR> there's at least 1 paper on dependent haskell and how it looks and works
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20:24:32 <EvanR> from a few years back now
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20:28:35 <EvanR> now I can't find it
20:30:32 <geekosaur> you thinking of eisenberg's thesis?
20:30:45 <geekosaur> https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~sweirich/papers/eisenberg-thesis.pdf
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20:32:09 <EvanR> well, I look at that paper and it doesn't match the corrupted memory of whatever I was trying to think of
20:32:25 <EvanR> maybe I was looking at an early draft
20:32:47 <monochrom> There were other papers too.
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20:46:02 <Abreu> Heya.
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20:47:25 <g> hi
20:47:46 <mauke> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnCai9GYJ9k
20:48:34 <Abreu> Nice. *:D
20:48:37 <EvanR> what does lnCai9GYJ9k go to
20:48:50 <EvanR> other than ads
20:49:20 <mauke> Super Hey Ya! (remastered)
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20:51:42 <g> mauke: this is some weird stuff
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22:43:55 <mawiie> do any of you remember what you struggled with most learning Haskell or functional programming for the first time? i want to introduce fp to some friends and was curious about common pitfalls.
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22:47:26 <hpc> when i learned haskell, i knew java (from classes), perl (from the job), and python (for fun)
22:47:47 <hpc> and haskell was so different that i had to break down a lot of assumptions in my head before i could get anywhere
22:48:23 <hpc> i ended up taking a month in the gap between semesters to just power through it with the goal of connecting an irc bot to a network
22:49:17 <EvanR> when learning scheme I was like how are you supposed to do anything without resorting to mutable variables
22:49:28 <EvanR> on IRC they told me to just use mutable variables
22:50:30 <EvanR> also monad tutorials at the time were especially bad
22:50:44 <hpc> i think the meta-lesson from that whole experience (and then taking a course on electronic circuits shortly after) was that computation is everywhere
22:51:23 <hpc> and no matter what form of computation you're looking at, there's always a dozen other ways to express any idea that are wildly different
22:52:23 <mawiie> thank you both. monad tutorials are still not great imo lmao. i think clashing terminology threw me off a lot, aside from the fact i was basically relearning programming from scratch (i came from a C background)
22:52:25 <hpc> so i guess, while you're busy doing the whole "forget everything you ever knew about programming" thing, try not to let any new assumptions fill in the gap
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22:54:50 <monochrom> You don't need to teach or learn monads early on.
22:55:19 <mawiie> definitely agree
22:56:01 <monochrom> This semester I just survived not teaching monads until the end (and it is not going to be on the exam, at least not on the surface).
22:56:32 <mawiie> having a hard time convincing my friend that they don't yet have to worry about what is practically the final boss of early haskell
22:56:44 <EvanR> i noticed some people don't even get started in haskell because they see nothing familiar at all, and instead see a bunch of gratuitous math topics, which can be off putting if you didn't major in math
22:56:59 <monochrom> So I just taught parsing by saying that pure and >>= are specific to my parser. I did not need to say it's a Monad instance.
22:57:08 <mawiie> lol sneaky
22:57:19 <hpc> EvanR: heh, i had a particularly extreme version of that while introducing a coworker to it
22:57:52 <monochrom> And I did that again when I taught the "S -> Either Error (S, a)" model of mutable state and errors.
22:57:53 <hpc> i whiteboarded some code to demonstrate something
22:58:03 <hpc> and at the end he goes "okay, what does that look like in actual code"
22:58:09 <hpc> and i just said "but... that is the code"
22:58:12 <mawiie> it's very very tempting to ramble about categories and types even if i know it will only scare them
22:59:19 <EvanR> oh yeah, that your code takes the form of functions. There's little you can do about that
22:59:33 <EvanR> it doesn't help industrial languages "don't have functions"
22:59:59 <monochrom> Most people struggle with FP because they are used to state variables and loops, not used to recursion and just passing changed parameters.
23:00:35 <mawiie> EvanR: in the "function as in subroutine" vs. "function as in mapping" sense?
23:00:41 <monochrom> Another way to say it is: Most programmers, because of that self-selection bias, can't do algebra.
23:01:11 <monochrom> Those who can do algebra have already found more satisfying careers such as math and Jane Street.
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23:02:01 <EvanR> java ruby c# scala don't have functions subroutines or mappings, but methods. PHP and python have functions but you're told not to use them
23:02:14 <monochrom> BTW those who can write in natural languages have already found more satisfying careers in journalism, law, literature, etc. This is why programmers can't write docs, and some can't even read docs.
23:02:44 <mawiie> lmfao checks out. i discovered haskell right as i was getting burnt out with C, and starting to do more math
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23:03:09 <monochrom> Those who can come up with really good tests have already found more satisfying careers in science (tests = experiments). So we are left with programmers who can't test.
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23:04:02 <EvanR> elixir has functions but they are kind of crippled vs haskell functions
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23:04:18 <EvanR> so they have arcane ways of combibining them
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23:06:49 <monochrom> Even OO is ruined by programmers. They are unable to grasp the most original, pure, elegant form of OO (Smalltalk, Simula). They can only water it down to micromanaging states again.
23:07:24 <monochrom> They must water it down. They only know micromanagement.
23:08:24 <monochrom> OK I stop now.
23:09:36 <monochrom> I legit teach recursion by saying "don't unfold the recursion, use the induction hypothesis instead". The opposite what how most people teach recursion.
23:09:41 <hpc> grammatically, it's more subject-oriented programming
23:10:15 <hpc> x.frazzle(y) is "x frazzles y", and OOP considers that x more important than anything else
23:10:42 <hpc> actual object-oriented programming is like if you made COMEFROM for function parameters
23:10:42 <monochrom> I teach at a school where I can take for granted that students can do induction proofs for breakfast. So it works for me. I don't imagine that there is any hope for average programmers.
23:11:02 <ncf> haskell is copula-oriented programming
23:11:03 <hpc> i wonder what that would even look like
23:11:37 <probie> My mother was a programmer (primarily writing COBOL) for 40 years and still gets confused by recursion
23:11:48 <EvanR> it depends on what the definition of is is
23:12:15 <EvanR> bill clinton was into an early version of haskell
23:13:04 <geekosaur> whereas I was horrified when I discovered cobol didn't have recursion
23:13:31 <mawiie> thank you all for the words noted a few for pedagogy things :3
23:13:51 <hpc> geekosaur: if programmers can't understand recursion, how well do you think the intended MBA audience would do? :P
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23:15:15 <EvanR> they should have went with corecursion
23:15:29 <EvanR> assume you understand corecursion. Ok you're done
23:15:35 <monochrom> heh
23:16:05 <probie> cobol has some great features like `alter`, so you can mutate your goto statements
23:16:05 <hpc> but i only understand understanding corecursion!
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23:17:12 <mawiie> probie: that sounds like control flow hell...
23:17:13 <hpc> someone should make an object-oriented version of cobol, and name it "add 1 to cobol returning cobol"
23:17:32 <monochrom> hahahaha
23:17:53 <int-e> cObOl is the original OO languagel
23:18:06 <monochrom> I wonder if Gracehopper would be proud. >:)
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23:19:44 <geekosaur> iirc visualage cobol has OO features
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23:21:15 <monochrom> Visual Age. That forgotten time when IBM had Visual Age <lang>.
23:21:46 monochrom only knew because of OS/2
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23:22:17 <hpc> they made it visual so it was easier to C
23:22:25 <monochrom> hahahaha
23:22:27 <probie> mawiie: It is. I'm pretty sure most code styles ban it. One of the intended uses is for "initialise on first use", so that te first call jumps to the initialisation code, and then the initialisation code updates it, so that when called again, it just jumps straight into the body
23:23:19 <EvanR> rewriting address of thunks to improve performance, shameful who would do this
23:23:43 <hpc> that sounds like python's module imports
23:23:44 <monochrom> Ooohhh that sounds like exactly our "config = unsafePerformIO (readFile configfile)" :)
23:23:51 <hpc> when you import a module, it's actually just running top-level code
23:24:02 <hpc> plus a little bit of magic to make sure a second import doesn't actually do anything
23:24:41 <int-e> sanity, sacrificed on the alter of performance
23:24:48 <monochrom> hahahaha
23:24:49 <hpc> or #include/#ifdef stuff
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23:26:09 <EvanR> unsafePerformIO combined with readFile
23:26:21 <monochrom> oops heh
23:26:31 <EvanR> what, that wasn't on purpose? xD
23:26:56 <monochrom> I was only intending an unsafePerformIO example.
23:27:06 <hpc> for maximum performance, read the config file in template haskell
23:27:21 <dolio> readFile is fine.
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23:27:28 <dolio> It works just like Brouwer's creating subject.
23:27:36 <EvanR> agreed
23:28:33 <int-e> dolio: you say that now but eventually that unsafePerformIO will run inside an STM action that gets GC'd while `readFile` holds a lock and then you'll be mystified for ages.
23:28:41 <EvanR> anUncomputable = unsafePerformIO (readFile oraclePath)
23:28:48 <dolio> I didn't say unsafePerformIO is fine. :)
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23:29:21 <int-e> (does this extend to unsafeInterleavIO? I imagine it does...)
23:29:21 <hpc> this is why you use unsafeDupablePerformIO
23:29:23 <hpc> there, problem solved
23:29:31 <hpc> and no way does it introduce new problems!
23:29:40 <int-e> hpc: if by "solved" you mean "exacerbated"
23:30:02 <hpc> int-e: only if you don't catch the exception :P
23:30:10 <EvanR> as long as you make sure to catch the unsafePerformIO-inside-atomically exception and retry, you're good
23:30:11 <int-e> what exception?
23:30:14 <hpc> any amount of runtime problems can be solved by ignoring them
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23:30:46 <int-e> EvanR: One of us is making stuff up right now and for once it's not me.
23:31:07 <hpc> oh, i thought it would throw something goofy
23:31:13 hpc has been writing too much python lately
23:31:17 <EvanR> or was it atomically inside unsafePerformIO
23:31:33 <geekosaur> the latter
23:31:59 <monochrom> Well, a better (!) example would be "stdGen = unsafePerformIO (getCurrentTime >>= newIORef)"
23:32:21 <int-e> that's probably mostly fine
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23:32:54 <int-e> (no locks, no resources allocated)
23:33:25 <EvanR> os = unsafePerformIO detectOS
23:34:57 <monochrom> Actually, System.Info's os is a case of "for maximum performance, read the config file in template haskell"
23:35:21 <monochrom> To be sure, not literally, just that it's set at GHC's build time.
23:35:47 <EvanR> interesting
23:36:13 <monochrom> System.Info source code uses #include and #ifdef etc to define os to be a static string.
23:37:00 <monochrom> So if you download a GHC binary for Linux, you download one that has "linux" hardcoded in the binary.
23:37:02 <EvanR> good. So it's a pure value xD
23:37:19 <monochrom> Yeah it's the only reason why it affords to be just String.
23:37:22 <EvanR> C preprocessor is a purely functional language
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23:38:02 <int-e> ooph
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23:38:53 <int-e> (have you ever played with ## and double expansion tricks to generate new macro names...)
23:39:01 <monochrom> I have!
23:39:14 int-e isn't sure that "pure" really applies... it feels wrong.
23:39:28 <monochrom> Err no, I haven't generated new macro names, I have played with ##.
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23:41:51 <int-e> (Well, "new"... you can't define new macros inside macros, unless you run cpp several times. But you can still assemble already existing macro names to be called from arguments and the details of that are messy)
23:42:30 <monochrom> I think I might have tried that with ## but not very successful.
23:42:34 <int-e> (IIRC there was an IOCCC entry that did require running CPP more than once.)
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23:43:04 <monochrom> But eventually I learned and used __VA_ARGS__
23:43:21 <monochrom> I wrote #define BAN(rt, f, ...) rt f(__VA_ARGS__) { ban(#f); }
23:43:31 <hpc> the real power move is using m4 instead of CPP
23:44:03 <hpc> make them nervous every time they type parenthesis
23:44:24 <monochrom> So that e.g. "BAN(FILE *, fdopen, int, const char *)" expands to: FILE * fdopen(int, const char *) {ban("fdopen"); }
23:44:59 <monochrom> Bascially I was learning how to use LD_PRELOAD to ban some library functions in homework.
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23:58:18 <int-e> Hmm I think my brain is making more out of this than there was. What I managed to reconstruct is: #define Q(x) x; #define APPEND(x,y) Q(x)Q(y) for the traditional CPP but no way to actually invoke another macro. Sorry.

All times are in UTC on 2023-08-15.