Logs on 2023-08-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:01:22 | <int-e> | (while modern CPP will happily append with ## and use the resulting macro name without any weird tricks) |
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| 00:12:32 | <EvanR> | any idea waht's going on all of a sudden here https://paste.tomsmeding.com/SQMnEwCW |
| 00:12:58 | <EvanR> | did a cosmic ray hit my kernel |
| 00:13:12 | <geekosaur> | an update did, I think? |
| 00:13:19 | <EvanR> | alright |
| 00:13:30 | <EvanR> | turning it off and on again |
| 00:13:40 | <geekosaur> | https://discourse.haskell.org/t/facing-mmap-4096-bytes-at-nil-cannot-allocate-memory-youre-not-alone/6259 |
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| 00:16:28 | <int-e> | that "old" bug! |
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| 00:18:05 | <int-e> | oh and the thread confuses me with int-index. so common |
| 00:18:46 | <EvanR> | that's unfortunate, still happens. Though occasionally I can make it to writing 2*pi and getting an answer before it core dumps |
| 00:19:10 | <geekosaur> | what version of ghc/ghci? |
| 00:19:34 | <EvanR> | 9.2.5 apparently |
| 00:19:41 | <geekosaur> | use 9.4 or 9.6 |
| 00:19:55 | <geekosaur> | this really does sound like the kernel bug in that url |
| 00:20:01 | <int-e> | which quite accidentally fixes this; it's really a kernel bug |
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| 00:20:25 | <int-e> | but ghc changed how exactly it mmaps low addresses between 9.2 and 9.4. |
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| 00:20:52 | <int-e> | (I'll trust geekosaur on those versions) |
| 00:20:56 | <EvanR> | this is why I hate updating my system |
| 00:21:11 | <EvanR> | previous kernel worked |
| 00:21:17 | <geekosaur> | yep |
| 00:21:26 | <EvanR> | big numbers not always better |
| 00:21:35 | <geekosaur> | your turn for that kernel bug |
| 00:23:15 | <Axman6> | The many-headed hydra of mmap returns |
| 00:23:53 | <EvanR> | 9.6 now successfully computes 2*pi |
| 00:23:57 | <EvanR> | great |
| 00:25:24 | <Axman6> | Phew, about time, now to head to hackernews to announce the production rediness of Haskell! |
| 00:26:07 | <int-e> | Axman6: it was nice knowing you |
| 00:26:23 | <Axman6> | Success successfully unavoided |
| 00:26:57 | <EvanR> | if the office watercooler were running haskell + linux, and this auto-update happened, we'd be dead in the water... |
| 00:27:26 | <Axman6> | Or at least next to it |
| 00:27:35 | <int-e> | @quote production |
| 00:27:35 | <lambdabot> | scodil says: dcoutts: rad. i'm actually using gtk2hs quite a bit now. its one of those deals where I'm writing prototype software for people who aren't really paying for it, so it will end up being |
| 00:27:36 | <lambdabot> | the production software, so you'll probably be getting emails in 5 years asking "what is haskell and how do I install it?" |
| 00:29:13 | <Axman6> | There's still some Haskell I wrote like 8 years ago running in production for the Austraslian Government. It should probably be updated, but I'm not sure anyone knows how now |
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| 00:29:59 | <probie> | Was that at IP Australia? |
| 00:30:18 | <Axman6> | NICTA(/CSIRO Data61) |
| 00:30:51 | <probie> | That makes more sense |
| 00:32:42 | <Axman6> | it's providing data to nationalmap.gov.au, good luck finding it |
| 00:34:00 | <hpc> | Axman6: that's so close to a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_of_New_Zealand_from_maps joke :D |
| 00:35:07 | <Axman6> | We (claimed) to have some good conversations with the NZ team doing a similar thing to that project, if they actually existed |
| 00:36:16 | <Axman6> | "NZ Exists" => "We had interesting conversatons with them" |
| 00:37:31 | <hpc> | it's important that the conversations are interesting |
| 00:37:34 | <hpc> | otherwise the math doesn't work out |
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| 00:42:56 | <Axman6> | Or in the AU/NZ case, maths |
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| 01:23:55 | <Axman6> | % type b <- a = a -> b |
| 01:23:56 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:87:8: error: ; parse error on input ‘<-’ ; Perhaps this statement should be within a 'do' block? |
| 01:24:12 | <Axman6> | % type (<-) b a = a -> b |
| 01:24:13 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:89:7: error: ; parse error on input ‘<-’ ; Perhaps this statement should be within a 'do' block? |
| 01:24:15 | <Axman6> | :( |
| 01:24:29 | <geekosaur> | <- is syntax, not an operator |
| 01:26:34 | <Axman6> | It's a bit of a shame, would be nice to have that instead of Op; newtype (<-) b a = Op (a -> b) |
| 01:38:49 | <int-e> | :<- would work |
| 01:40:11 | <geekosaur> | % type b <-- a = a -> b |
| 01:40:11 | <yahb2> | <no output> |
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| 04:15:08 | <reklack> | any other learners here? |
| 04:15:54 | <glguy> | reklack: yeah, lots |
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| 04:17:36 | <glguy> | activity varies widely over the day, but if there's something you're curious about, ask a question and hang out for a while to give people a chance to reply |
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| 04:27:43 | <glguy> | learning complete |
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| 04:34:34 | <davros1> | Havent touched haskell in ages but did dabble with it. I have clicked into this room again because elsewhere someone is suggesting I learn "category theory" |
| 04:35:09 | <davros1> | I use rust these days (still close to c++ but gets some of the appeal of haskell mashed into it) |
| 04:35:34 | <glguy> | Why are they suggesting that? What do they think it means? |
| 04:37:28 | <glguy> | Haskell is pretty great, but maybe not because if category theory :) |
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| 04:46:21 | <Axman6> | There are parts of CT that I have learned over the years, but none of it really (to my knowledge at least) affects my haskell writing day to day |
| 04:47:25 | <davros1> | What they say is "category theory will inform us how to make the languages we need that we dont yet have" |
| 04:47:39 | <davros1> | Basically its a PL & AI researcher. |
| 04:48:17 | <Axman6> | You might enjoy Conal Elliot's talk(s) on compiling to categories, that's the most compelling use I've seen |
| 04:50:10 | <Axman6> | I haven't seen this particular instance, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVRYcrhRCes is probably relevant |
| 04:50:41 | <Axman6> | This is the version of the talk I was at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzLK_xE9Zy8&t=1s |
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| 04:54:30 | <probie> | or, if like me, you dislike watching videos - here's the relevant paper http://conal.net/papers/compiling-to-categories/compiling-to-categories.pdf |
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| 04:58:02 | <Axman6> | Conal has such a calming way of presenting it's worth the video IMO (The podcast he did for tyoe theory for all was one of the most zen things I've ever heard, birds chirping in the background) |
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| 05:13:18 | <monochrom> | Other reasons to learn category theory: https://math.mit.edu/~dspivak/teaching/sp18/7Sketches.pdf https://math.mit.edu/~dspivak/informatics/ https://applied-compositional-thinking.engineering/ https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/mssrc_uah_nasa_30-09-2018.pdf |
| 05:14:59 | <monochrom> | at which point you don't learn category theory for coding, you learn it for thinking at all. |
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| 05:15:55 | <dolio> | Yeah, that's more the point. |
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| 05:38:57 | <davros1> | Thanks for the above links |
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| 05:49:15 | <sm> | Axman6: +1 |
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| 07:58:38 | <Square> | Are there means to say alias "do" and "<-" or provide syntactic sugar all by yourself? |
| 07:58:57 | <lyxia> | Square: RebindableSyntax? |
| 07:59:11 | <Square> | ok, Ill check that out |
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| 08:11:42 | <tomsmeding> | Square: also check QualifiedDo |
| 08:11:56 | <tomsmeding> | lighter-weight option if that's enough for you |
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| 08:12:25 | <Square> | Ok, Ill check that out. Some googling seems to hint you need to roll your own ghc preprocessor |
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| 08:29:37 | <dminuoso> | Square: Depending on what you do, just implementing Monad in itself is also an option. Consider something like free monads as well. |
| 08:29:47 | <dminuoso> | Or freer monads. |
| 08:30:10 | <dminuoso> | In some sense the Monad abstraction in itself *is* the reprogrammable <- |
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| 09:07:26 | <lortabac> | is there a particular reason why ghcup still recommends GHC 9.2? |
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| 11:05:52 | <fendor> | lortabac, because maerwald considers it to be recommended version :P |
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| 11:06:01 | <fendor> | *the recommended version |
| 11:06:56 | <lortabac> | I mean, is there a reason or did he just forget to update the recommended version in ghcup? |
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| 11:12:58 | <fendor> | lortabac, well, you don't recommend the latest major version because these usually have some bug at the beginning |
| 11:13:11 | <fendor> | then tooling and ecosystem support is a thing |
| 11:13:24 | <fendor> | like, do most major framework work with that particular ghc version. |
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| 12:09:52 | <absence> | if the operating system says my haskell program uses several hundred MB "dirty" memory, but the GHC heap profiler only reports a few MB, does that mean most of the memory is allocated by C libraries called through FFI? |
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| 12:26:49 | <exarkun> | How do I have `cabal haddock` build docs with links to targets in dependencies? `cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage` just tells me that it didn't find documentation for dependencies so it won't generate links to them. I don't have to `cabal haddock <each of those packages>` manually do I? |
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| 13:52:57 | <hippoid> | I'm looking at the source code for the `any` function in base https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/src/Data.Foldable.html#any, and see unfamiliar "#." in the code. What are those #. ? |
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| 13:55:37 | <ncf> | you can click them https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/src/Data.Functor.Utils.html#%23. |
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| 13:59:35 | <hippoid> | ncf: thanks |
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| 15:19:40 | <tomsmeding> | absence: could it be that the program _used_ several hundred MB, but freed it in the haskell heap in the meantime (but the RTS didn't return the pages yet)? (just a guess) |
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| 21:49:56 | <dsal> | I keep feeling like I want to make a function like `Applicative t => Bool -> t ()` where, e.g., `True` is `pure ()` and `False` is… something else. Is there a sensible way to write something like this with just an Applicative constraint? |
| 21:51:02 | <dsal> | This kind of stuff exists in Monad, but not Applicative. Seems weird. |
| 21:51:48 | <dsal> | Oh, I guess that's what Alternative is. |
| 21:51:55 | <dsal> | I'm looking for like, ApplicativeZero or something. heh |
| 21:52:41 | <exarkun> | sounds close to `when` |
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| 21:54:11 | <mauke> | :t unless |
| 21:54:12 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => Bool -> f () -> f () |
| 21:54:23 | <probie> | :t guard |
| 21:54:24 | <lambdabot> | Alternative f => Bool -> f () |
| 21:54:40 | <dsal> | I guess `()` muddied the example there a bit. |
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| 21:55:09 | <dsal> | I want `A -> Maybe B`, but for stuff other than `Maybe`. |
| 21:55:15 | <dsal> | Alternative seems to be the right answer. |
| 21:55:30 | <monochrom> | Yeah Alternative. False -> empty |
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| 21:56:02 | <monochrom> | I don't think the community has needed a "pure and empty, nothing else" class yet. :) |
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| 21:56:53 | <dsal> | Yeah, I don't actually need `*>` here. More evidence that a class should have, at most, one method. |
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| 22:03:45 | <probie> | I'd weaken that to "one unique method". I'm happy for `Ord` to have both `compare` and `<=`, since it's still defining "one thing", but allows common cases to be optimised |
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| 22:24:02 | <EvanR> | monochrom, apparently rust has embraced the equivalent of a Default typeclass. Which we have but no one is excited with. I wonder what we're missing |
| 22:24:15 | <EvanR> | maybe I should look for a pure empty class |
| 22:25:17 | <davean> | EvanR: what do you mean? They're used fairly widely. The problem is you can't really generalize on them, you have to deal with them as a special case every time. |
| 22:25:42 | <geekosaur> | xmonad uses Default all over the place. it's already caused some bugs |
| 22:25:45 | <davean> | You may not even realize when they're used because they're always a special case, inherently. |
| 22:26:41 | <geekosaur> | (https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/293) |
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| 22:26:48 | <EvanR> | hmm. Well by my limited reading of Default trait in rust it's like for picking zero for numbers and filling in zero in all the fields of a struct |
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| 22:27:16 | <EvanR> | which I wouldn't imagine is helpful or warranted a lot of the time |
| 22:27:58 | <davean> | EvanR: what zero means isn't well defined across locations |
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| 22:28:18 | <glguy> | If people stuck to Default meaning "zero" and only implemented it for types where it was obvious what zero meant, that'd be fine |
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| 22:28:28 | <geekosaur> | "zero" isn't determined by type, but by context |
| 22:28:39 | <glguy> | but peolpe like to get clever and put like just general purpose default settings in the Default instances |
| 22:28:43 | <davean> | There isn't even just one zero |
| 22:29:00 | <davean> | Zero is in a context |
| 22:29:23 | <EvanR> | there is one "all zero bits" float, which is fine xD |
| 22:29:46 | <EvanR> | better than corrupted memory |
| 22:29:47 | <davean> | EvanR: you say that ... |
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| 22:30:30 | <davean> | EvanR: IEEE 754 added interchange formats but ... |
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| 22:34:31 | <monochrom> | EvanR: But do the Rust people have a trait that has both default and error? >:) |
| 22:35:14 | <EvanR> | like, a bottom value? |
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| 22:36:09 | <EvanR> | u32 adjoin ⊥ |
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| 22:37:15 | <monochrom> | I am more lax than 5 years ago about type classes. I am OK with Default, but I suspect that most use cases should have no trouble going all the way of Monoid. |
| 22:38:23 | <int-e> | monophily |
| 22:38:52 | <monochrom> | The other angle and cautionary tale is that someone in the PHP community actually noticed and raised hell about their time type having the default value of 0 which never makes sense. |
| 22:38:58 | <davean> | monochrom: monoid says which zero, which helps a lot. |
| 22:39:12 | <davean> | monochrom: whats wrong with time 0? |
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| 22:39:41 | <monochrom> | 0 of that time type means an arbitrarily chosen point of time such as 1970 Jan 1 etc etc |
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| 22:39:58 | <davean> | monochrom: yes, exactly. |
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| 22:41:35 | <monochrom> | Another way to see it is from a friend who taught a math class for paramedics and noticed the problem with this question: A patient's body temperature was 98F yesterday, 99F today, what's the percentage increase? |
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| 22:42:23 | <davean> | monochrom: I hate converting F to K |
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| 22:42:59 | <monochrom> | Oh the textbook model answer was "(99 - 98) / 98". That's the problem. |
| 22:43:00 | <davean> | And pelase don't mention Rankine |
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| 22:43:25 | <davean> | oh well, uh thats ... special. But having an origion makes sense. |
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| 22:45:57 | <davean> | monochrom: why would they even ask that question? |
| 22:46:05 | <davean> | I'm unclear what the relivency is |
| 22:46:42 | <monochrom> | 9th-rate textbook authors adhering to the religion of "must make a word problem". |
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| 22:47:22 | <monochrom> | The lesson is supposed to be just calculating percentage increase/decrease. |
| 22:47:44 | <monochrom> | The XY problem is then "the students are paramedics so let's dress it up in terms of body temperature" |
| 22:48:28 | <monochrom> | You know what, generally everything that goes wrong can be traced back to religions and XY problems. |
| 22:48:41 | <davean> | anyway its 2e-3 |
| 22:48:48 | <davean> | if you wanted to know |
| 22:50:41 | <monochrom> | If you think that fibonacci are factorial are poor examples for teaching recursion, you have no idea how bad real education out there is. >:) |
| 22:50:46 | <davean> | I assume the questions required the correct significant figures |
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| 22:53:33 | <hpc> | ironically, it was the chain rule for derivatives that made recursion fully intuitive for me, because of lazy textbookiness |
| 22:54:10 | <hpc> | i wanted to just get through computing all these stupid derivatives already, and all that repetition and motivation meant if i saw that the chain rule was recursion, i would get done faster |
| 22:54:47 | <monochrom> | Did you turn it into dynamic programming? :) |
| 22:54:57 | <davean> | Hum, I think I was comfortable with recursion over a decade before I got to calculous |
| 22:55:16 | <glguy> | calculus + fabulous |
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| 22:55:45 | <hpc> | davean: eh, there are degrees of comfortable |
| 22:56:09 | <hpc> | i could handle recursion for a while before, but in that sort of first year physics "electrons are both particles and waves" way |
| 22:56:29 | <hpc> | that was where i could really do new stuff with it |
| 22:58:43 | <hpc> | or maybe a better way to put it is, that was where i started to see it everywhere and not just on a computer |
| 23:01:25 | <davean> | Yah I was comfortable with recursion long before I ever saw a computer. |
| 23:01:41 | <davean> | computers came fairly late in life for me. |
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| 23:02:06 | <hpc> | ah |
| 23:02:28 | <davean> | I expect the first recursion I ever did was for angle splitting for wood working when I was about 5 |
| 23:02:57 | <EvanR> | wait Rankine would have made that question easier |
| 23:03:34 | <davean> | EvanR: yah, I converted the temp to ranking and did 1/(rankine(98). I just hated that I did. |
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| 23:04:10 | <EvanR> | but the correct answer is obviously to convert to kelvins just out of spite |
| 23:04:28 | <davean> | I'd have lost accuracy if I did that |
| 23:04:38 | <davean> | I was easier to get right via rankine |
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| 23:09:33 | <dolio> | You two are failing the easy math course. |
| 23:09:52 | <dolio> | Just like Richard Feynman. |
| 23:10:13 | <davean> | Thanks for making me feel like a losser |
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| 23:12:28 | <ncf> | "i could handle recursion for a while" |
| 23:13:27 | <int-e> | hmmm, then I learned about tail recursion and now I can handle recursion forever |
| 23:13:35 | <int-e> | :t forever |
| 23:13:36 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f a -> f b |
| 23:14:00 | <EvanR> | guarded unsafeCoerce |
| 23:14:05 | <int-e> | (which, for many f, isn't tail recursive) |
| 23:14:11 | <int-e> | :t coerce |
| 23:14:12 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:14:12 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: coerce |
| 23:14:12 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant ‘coerced’ (imported from Control.Lens) |
| 23:14:18 | <int-e> | :t Data.Coerce.coerce |
| 23:14:19 | <lambdabot> | Coercible a b => a -> b |
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