Logs on 2023-08-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:35:13 | <aditya> | Hi |
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| 05:37:44 | aditya | is now known as adix |
| 05:47:29 | <probie> | adix: in many IRC channels (including #haskell), it's unusual to respond to a "hello" message. If you have a question, just ask it |
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| 05:58:47 | <adix> | I wanted to try haskell by practical, and slowly , what are my options |
| 06:00:11 | <adix> | I have been reading/ learning haskell , but without problem solving i dont get confidence about it |
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| 06:15:59 | <Lycurgus> | adix, I presume you meant confidence in your ability to use it |
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| 06:16:52 | <Lycurgus> | confidence in it as such should be self evident from its use and pervasiveness in certain circles |
| 06:17:06 | <Lycurgus> | although that did peak a while back |
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| 06:47:04 | <Axman6> | adix: your question is hard to answer without knowing wat sorts of things interest you, building simple web services can be quite useful for getting started with practical haskell, like databases, dealing with textual data properly (learning the differences between String, Text and ByteString, etc.). The book real world Haskell is fairly old now, and in need of an update, but is available for free online, and the chapters might give you ideas of the sorts of t |
| 06:47:05 | <Axman6> | hings you want to play with: v |
| 06:47:08 | <Axman6> | https://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ |
| 06:47:33 | <Axman6> | There are also some newer books available, but I'm not too familiar with them |
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| 07:06:51 | <adix> | so my past is web application / Rest API / MVC / databases etc etc |
| 07:07:21 | <adix> | for latest/ updated content of haskell where should i look / which book |
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| 07:14:58 | <nikeedev> | Hello Haskells! |
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| 11:34:22 | <Yuriosity> | Has anybody used IHaskell/ipython-kernel? I have troubles with installing a sample kernel :( |
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| 12:05:44 | <gastus> | Has anybody tried translating popluar frameworks like react to Haskell to see how much better/worse Haskell performs with SSR ? due to fusion like optimizations I expect Haskell to perform quite well |
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| 12:59:16 | <albet70> | is there a general way to extract a or b in Mk a b? |
| 13:00:16 | <albet70> | I know it could be getA (Mk a ) = a, is there more in general like id or const? |
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| 13:01:20 | <exarkun> | Are there docs somewhere about how to go about bootstrapping a ghc from source? |
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| 13:38:04 | <glguy> | albet70: you'd need to build something like that with GHC.Generics |
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| 13:39:13 | <adeptangel> | hi, beginner question here. Why does Haskell use algebraic data types like those created by `data` like it does? What are the advantages over, say, just using structs? |
| 13:39:30 | <glguy> | exarkun: asking in #ghc might find the right eyeballs |
| 13:39:34 | <exarkun> | glguy: THanks |
| 13:40:25 | <glguy> | adeptangel: structs can't define multiple alternatives |
| 13:41:11 | <adeptangel> | glguy: that's true but then why might I want multiple alternatives? |
| 13:41:38 | <glguy> | Branching and multiple choice happens regularly in programming |
| 13:42:49 | <glguy> | In C you can use a union with a manually defined tag to deal with thus, but the language doesn't help you link those |
| 13:43:30 | <adeptangel> | I'm just asking because algebraic data types feel harder to use than structs at the moment so I'm trying to understand what their strengths are |
| 13:43:34 | <ncf> | @src Bool |
| 13:43:34 | <lambdabot> | data Bool = False | True deriving (Eq, Ord) |
| 13:43:42 | <glguy> | With well defined "sums" and "products" via data you get pattern matching and language support for checking variants |
| 13:43:44 | <ncf> | how would you define Bool as a struct? |
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| 13:44:41 | <adeptangel> | ncf: quite true, but most languages define bool as a primitive type, right? so it doesn't need to be defined in terms of anything |
| 13:44:48 | <glguy> | Maybe you could be more specific about what you're struggling with |
| 13:45:59 | <glguy> | adeptangel: right, and it's good if you aren't locked into only the primitive types that come with your language. |
| 13:46:26 | <glguy> | So you can make new ones that are more specific to the problem you're solving |
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| 13:47:57 | <addem> | @adeptangel One of the primary examples that comes to my mind is a compiler. People build their own compiler all the time, designed for their own interest. The basic task is to take a piece of writing and turn it into a structured expression. |
| 13:47:58 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 13:48:01 | <glguy> | Some languages have enumerations but then give up too quickly and don't allow you to associate different fields with each enumeration |
| 13:48:43 | <addem> | Well, algebraic data types are a great way to represent structured expressions. Because fundamentally, your expression is going to be one of "Primitive" or "Plus" or "Times" or "Equals" or ... |
| 13:48:55 | <addem> | And so on, depending on your desired language. |
| 13:50:04 | <addem> | But the point is just that you want to (1) determine which kind of expression a given instance is, and (2) use that kind of expression's carried data (so if it's an "Equals" then it should carry two things, which you want to decide if they're equal). |
| 13:50:19 | <adeptangel> | addem: good point, I have actually used Haskell for this purpose in a uni project |
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| 13:51:14 | <adeptangel> | I think I've identified what it is that I don't understand about algebraic data types: what actually *is* a value? |
| 13:51:16 | <addem> | Yeah, any good functional programming course generally makes that a kind of capstone project. Because the fit between compiler design and functional programming is nearly hand-in-glove. |
| 13:51:29 | <adeptangel> | addem: that makes sense |
| 13:52:00 | <ncf> | a value is what you decide it is |
| 13:52:10 | <adeptangel> | I'm typing an example |
| 13:52:36 | <adeptangel> | suppose you have a data type data Card = Diamond Int | Heart Int | Spade Int | Club Int |
| 13:52:58 | <adeptangel> | when I use a constructor like Diamond to create a value of type Card, what actually gets stored? |
| 13:53:30 | <adeptangel> | I'm guessing that at least the constructor and the value passed must be stored, otherwise you wouldn't be able to use pattern-matching to get them back later |
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| 13:53:56 | <ncf> | correct, you get a tag representing "Diamond" and then an Int |
| 13:55:01 | <adeptangel> | also coming from non-Haskell languages it feels strange that you can only retrive the values using pattern-matching |
| 13:55:09 | <adeptangel> | (unless there's another way I don't know about) |
| 13:55:18 | <addem> | Good question, I don't know the low-level details. If anyone else does I'd be happy to hear it. But obviously there must be at least three things, one way or another: We must store the data type (i.e. Card), and variant (i.e. Diamond), and carried data (the particular Int). The compiler must understand that, if this is stored in variable `x`, then `x` has all three of these associated with it. |
| 13:55:24 | <addem> | Not sure if that answers the question though. |
| 13:56:01 | <ncf> | the data type is actually not stored at runtime because ghc performs type erasure |
| 13:56:24 | <ncf> | it knows at compile time that a particular place in memory holds a Card, and that is enough |
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| 13:57:03 | <addem> | I think the intent behind accessing structured data through pattern matching is so that you don't have to (and nobody wants to) do low-level programming when it's a distraction from you're real needs. |
| 13:57:24 | <addem> | By restricting how you interface with the data, you are kept from having to think about memory addresses and such. |
| 13:58:02 | <addem> | *your |
| 13:58:15 | <lortabac> | adeptangel: in Go there is this convention of returning an error together with a result |
| 13:58:23 | <lortabac> | err, result := doSomething() |
| 13:58:25 | <exarkun> | And considering there are multiple versions of ghc and multiple code generator backends, there isn't even one single representation in memory at runtime. |
| 13:58:56 | <lortabac> | you check whether err is nil and you proceed accordingly |
| 13:59:22 | <lortabac> | now think about this: in (err, result) what is the value of result if there is an error? |
| 13:59:35 | <lortabac> | that variable has no meaning |
| 13:59:47 | <lortabac> | but Go doesn't let you express this concept |
| 14:00:17 | <lortabac> | in Haskell you would use 'Either Error Result' and get either an error or a valid result |
| 14:00:52 | <lortabac> | no risk of accidentally using an undefined variable |
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| 14:04:06 | <dolio> | In a case like card, you can make all the constructors records with a common field name, like `Diamond {value :: Int} | Heart {value :: Int} ...`. Then you can project out the value with `value result`, if that's what you mean. |
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| 14:04:25 | <dolio> | Of course, you could write the function yourself, too. |
| 14:05:54 | <adeptangel> | addem: the thing you said about avoiding low-level programming makes sense |
| 14:06:34 | <dolio> | Of course, you can also represent it like `data Card = C { suit :: Suit, value :: Int }` |
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| 14:07:43 | <adeptangel> | dolio: i'm not actually super familiar with Haskell's record syntax, could you write an example (for the first thing you said)? |
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| 14:07:55 | <adeptangel> | i.e. what do you mean by `value result` |
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| 14:08:30 | <dolio> | When you have constructors like that, a function `value :: Card -> Int` will be auto-generated. |
| 14:08:43 | <adeptangel> | and thanks everyone for your comments! I think the root of my problem is that I learned Haskell fairly quickly and I'm worried I might be using algebraic data types in the wrong way |
| 14:08:59 | <dolio> | If every constructor has a `value` field, that function will never fail. |
| 14:09:30 | <adeptangel> | dolio: ah that makes sense thanks |
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| 14:10:27 | <ncf> | Int + Int + Int + Int = 4 * Int |
| 14:11:08 | <ncf> | (Diamond Int | Club Int | Heart Int | Spade Int) = (Suit, Int) |
| 14:12:01 | <ncf> | (if you wonder why they're called "sum types" and "product types") |
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| 14:16:55 | <adeptangel> | ncf: the first one is a product type and the second one is a sum right? that's funny because I would have named them the other way around :S |
| 14:17:23 | <ncf> | yes |
| 14:17:44 | <adeptangel> | the second one reminds me of Cartesian product |
| 14:18:00 | <ncf> | also yes |
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| 14:22:28 | <adeptangel> | is it normal to use algebraic data types for most user-defined types in Haskell? Or should I be using structs more? |
| 14:22:31 | <adeptangel> | uh, records |
| 14:24:03 | <dolio> | Records in Haskell are just algebraic types with some extra features. |
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| 14:25:39 | <dolio> | But, you should use whatever representation is best suited to what you're doing. |
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| 15:44:32 | <EvanR> | they left. But a record is basically a struct right |
| 15:44:48 | <EvanR> | give or take naming restrictions on the fields |
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| 16:20:22 | <addem> | Yeah, far as I know, a record is basically a struct. |
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| 16:22:32 | <addem> | Can a record be exported the same way a struct can? Maybe that's some kind of significant difference corresponding to low-level implementations, ... possibly corresponding to differences in performance? I really dunno. |
| 16:22:45 | <geekosaur> | Storable instance |
| 16:23:23 | <geekosaur> | the struct itself is a collection of pointers, and the pointed-to values generally are represented differently than in C; the Storable class can be used to map between them |
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| 16:32:07 | <EvanR> | Storable can mediate between an actual C struct and an equivalent haskell record right? And serializing/deserializing is something else |
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| 16:37:00 | <geekosaur> | yes. generally the binary or cereal libraries are used for serialization/deserialization |
| 16:37:17 | <geekosaur> | althoyugh some packages roll their own with attoparsec or flatparse |
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| 17:11:40 | <monochrom> | record = struct = product but it is an unpopular opinion. |
| 17:12:24 | <monochrom> | People programmers (who else?) make a big fuss with things like "but record has field names!" |
| 17:12:39 | <monochrom> | s/People/Because/ |
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| 17:15:46 | geekosaur | *tiny violin* |
| 17:16:14 | <EvanR> | the empty record (and empty product ()) have no field names, so they're wrong |
| 17:16:44 | <geekosaur> | and anonymous records dba tuples |
| 17:16:59 | <monochrom> | More unpopular opinion: CPS = callback style = using >>= |
| 17:17:27 | <geekosaur> | am I supposed to disagree with that? |
| 17:17:47 | <dminuoso> | "X is basically Y" can be a confusing statement. While Haskell records definitely are not C structs, its probably more useful to compare them on how they relate. |
| 17:17:56 | <mauke> | joke's on you, C has no empty structs |
| 17:18:04 | <monochrom> | No, please agree with me always. :) |
| 17:18:24 | <dolio> | Field names are the big problem with records. |
| 17:18:39 | <monochrom> | But it's unpopular given that it's popular to say "'flatMap' is a bad name". |
| 17:18:55 | <dolio> | Always leading programmer to ask for computers to be solving exponential time problems because of them. |
| 17:19:48 | <dminuoso> | mauke: By the way, whether or not zero structs are permissable is not quite clear in the C standard. |
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| 17:19:58 | <EvanR> | exponential time problems are easy. Just use moore's law |
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| 17:21:21 | <mauke> | dminuoso: I thought you couldn't have them because every object needs a unique address and padding isn't allowed at the start of a struct |
| 17:23:00 | <monochrom> | dolio: Is it because of expecting DWIM type inference given field names? |
| 17:23:10 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 17:23:24 | <dolio> | And arbitrary rows of things with field names. |
| 17:23:38 | <monochrom> | Took me a while because at first I was thinking what happens after compilation and during run time. |
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| 17:32:46 | <monochrom> | Oh hey new unpopular opinion: Surely computers are meant for exponential-time problems? If it's polynomial-time I would have done it myself already. >:) |
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| 17:33:28 | <dolio> | Isn't that the standard nonsense opinion in computer science? |
| 17:33:31 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: primality checking is polynomial time |
| 17:33:32 | <monochrom> | OK just joking, there are a lot of polynomial-time boring chore I don't want to do either heh. |
| 17:33:43 | <dolio> | I.E. polynomial time = "efficient"? |
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| 17:34:43 | <monochrom> | But there are still several things I'm too lazy to write code for so I still do manually. |
| 17:35:06 | <dolio> | My O(n^(10^100)) algorithm that proves P=NP is so efficient. |
| 17:35:25 | <monochrom> | Wait you have one???!!!! |
| 17:35:32 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: I suspect those are things that predominantly have some large amount of constant-time work, and hardly scale with input size |
| 17:36:28 | <tomsmeding> | my intuition tells me that P != NP, and the reason is that NP-complete things are typically very hard, so the exponent is likely not going to be low, and if it's high, why 12345 and not 12346 |
| 17:36:42 | <tomsmeding> | add 10^ as you will |
| 17:37:27 | <monochrom> | tomsmeding: I am reflecting that my personal criterion for automation vs DIY is boredom. If I'm bored by something, I write code to automate it; else I don't (coding can be boring too). So boredom is correlated to time complexity but it is not a perfect match. |
| 17:38:13 | <tomsmeding> | like, I don't expect to be able to improve an O(n^3) algorithm much, in general -- a significant reduction, e.g. to n^2, is typically significantly harder than the n^3 version (or the n^3 version was dumb) |
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| 17:38:27 | <tomsmeding> | but if you give me an n^1e100 algorithm, I bet it can be improved to n^(1e100 - 1) |
| 17:38:41 | <tomsmeding> | reductio ad absurdum |
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| 17:38:56 | <dolio> | Are they very hard, though? There's lots of practical NP complete solving going on. |
| 17:39:05 | <tomsmeding> | for common cases, yes |
| 17:39:09 | <tomsmeding> | as in, the common cases are doable |
| 17:39:19 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 17:39:48 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: true |
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| 17:40:28 | <tomsmeding> | the issue with programmers is that they typically like programming more than doing most other things that can be automated in the first place, so usually automating is more fun than doing |
| 17:40:44 | <tomsmeding> | cue https://xkcd.com/1205/ |
| 17:41:07 | <dolio> | Personally this is my reason for not caring about P=NP. I think even if it gets solved, it will probably make no difference. |
| 17:41:21 | <tomsmeding> | probably |
| 17:41:29 | <monochrom> | There is a rocket equation somewhere there :) |
| 17:41:30 | <dolio> | Even if the solution is P=NP. |
| 17:42:07 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, P != NP wouldn't have devastating consequences at all because that's basically what we're all assuming as we go on |
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| 17:46:59 | <monochrom> | P vs NP can be seen as a proxy to interesting problems. The general arc is asking how much difference there is between determinism and nondeterminism, or finding a witness vs checking a witness. |
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| 17:48:09 | <monochrom> | It may be an impractical question (even the general arc). But it's an interesting math question. That's why it is a math institute that offers a prize, not an engineering institute, not IEEE, not even ACM. :) |
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| 17:49:45 | <EvanR> | yes log time is blazing, linear time is fast, and quadratic is merely efficient. Just nested loop over array in C++ and stop worrying |
| 17:50:07 | <EvanR> | since everything gains a log factor in haskell we care more about the complexity |
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| 17:51:33 | <dolio> | The problem isn't asking about how two sorts of problems relate. The problem is the threshold for accepting them as equivalent. |
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| 17:55:16 | <exarkun> | everything gains a log factor in haskell? |
| 17:55:27 | <monochrom> | At this point, even with that very lousy (or generous?) threshold, we haven't figured it out yet. Using a much better threshold is going to be even much harder. |
| 17:56:00 | <monochrom> | It's a proxy. It's a stepping stone. Of course there will be future work asking better questions. |
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| 17:56:18 | <EvanR> | yeah because you used a tree (log time operations (not really!)) instead of an array which is constant time (not really!) |
| 17:56:48 | <exarkun> | ah ok |
| 17:57:17 | <monochrom> | Perhaps "everything" is an exaggeration but compare "I'm in Perl/Python I use hash table" vs "I'm in Haskell I use BST". |
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| 17:57:42 | <EvanR> | (IntMap's operations have a maximum, making it constant time. Arrays exist within the tree-like memory hierarchy, making them log time) |
| 17:57:55 | <exarkun> | I didn't see that it was about application-level choice of data structures / algorithms, rather than something intrinsic about, say, ghc's runtime execution model. |
| 17:58:06 | <monochrom> | And with that, "gain a log factor" means improving a linear factor to a log factor. >:D (Why else would we say "gain" heh) |
| 17:58:16 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 18:01:35 | <monochrom> | OK I can see that we can be pessimistic that once P vs NP is settled, the fad is gone and no one actually works on the better follow-up questions. |
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| 18:03:04 | <monochrom> | Oh well, I have had much wine this week, and enjoyed the England vs Australia match yesterday, and happy that England won, so this is why I am not the normal cynical self. >:) |
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| 18:05:34 | <shapr> | monochrom: shocking! |
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| 18:09:16 | <dolio> | I mainly don't expect any amount of further work to yield a general purpose solution that would actually be 'efficient' in real terms. |
| 18:10:20 | <dolio> | Since my suspicion is that if P=NP, people haven't figured out how because it's such an expensive algorithm that no one would look for it. |
| 18:10:59 | <monochrom> | That's an interesting angle. |
| 18:12:30 | <geekosaur> | I've suspected the same, actually |
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| 18:22:17 | <dolio> | Also, it's of course tempting to think, 'if it were the case, then the algorithm would have some low degree complexity, not some arbitrary, very large degree." But then there are examples of mathematical problems that defy that sort of logic. |
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| 18:32:37 | <dolio> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=851U557j6HE |
| 18:32:59 | <tomsmeding> | ah good old Borwein |
| 18:33:04 | <monochrom> | Oh, that one, heh. |
| 18:33:14 | <[exa]> | ah good old real numbers, the source of infinite complexities |
| 18:33:46 | <monochrom> | Oh don't expect that countable ordinals are any simpler! |
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| 18:34:33 | <[exa]> | :] |
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| 19:16:28 | <stefan-_> | is it possible to mutate an xml data structure in-place, e.g. with HXT? |
| 19:16:56 | <monochrom> | No. |
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| 19:17:40 | [exa] | wildly imagines a XML tree made of IORefs |
| 19:18:41 | <int-e> | "XML data structure" |
| 19:18:45 | int-e | weeps a bit |
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| 19:20:37 | <monochrom> | xmas data structure anyone? :) |
| 19:20:43 | <int-e> | (I can think of a dozen interpretations, all horrible.) |
| 19:20:44 | <mauke> | char*, in a notation borrowed from kleene |
| 19:20:56 | <[exa]> | charrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
| 19:21:11 | <tomsmeding> | quiz question: GHC inserts Haskell string literals directly as C-strings into Core; it's actually _not_ a list of characters, it's an UTF-8 buffer. For example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/oL7xxdCn . C-strings are \NUL-terminated. Before trying, try to guess what GHC does when you write "\NUL" in your Haskell source |
| 19:21:14 | <monochrom> | Ugh please don't char my xmas tree or xml tree! |
| 19:22:04 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: please no |
| 19:22:07 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: I've seen that |
| 19:22:19 | <tomsmeding> | it's actually kind of clever |
| 19:22:24 | <tomsmeding> | but also super ugly :D |
| 19:22:42 | <mauke> | I know how vim handles NULs ... |
| 19:22:55 | <tomsmeding> | this is... better, I guess |
| 19:22:57 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@088-129-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 19:23:14 | <tomsmeding> | vim's handling annoys me every single time I run into it (not often) |
| 19:23:20 | <int-e> | should be 0xC0x80 |
| 19:23:29 | <tomsmeding> | extra 0 in the middle |
| 19:23:31 | <tomsmeding> | but yes |
| 19:23:50 | <int-e> | err, yes |
| 19:23:59 | <mauke> | ah, java-style modified utf-8 |
| 19:24:17 | <tomsmeding> | no, in java unicode literal desugaring happens before parsing |
| 19:24:32 | <mauke> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8#Modified_UTF-8 |
| 19:24:45 | <int-e> | IIRC java has a 65535 *byte* limit on string literals (UTF-8) |
| 19:24:55 | <tomsmeding> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/27h6cLbI |
| 19:25:20 | <[exa]> | wait how come that decodes back to NUL? |
| 19:25:33 | <mauke> | overlong encoding |
| 19:25:33 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: that java thing? It doesn't, that's a " |
| 19:26:01 | <tomsmeding> | on the \xc0\x80, yeah that's UTF8 for (11)00 0000 (10)00 0000, i.e. 00 0000 00 0000, i.e. 0x000 |
| 19:26:01 | <[exa]> | no, I mean the 11000000_10000000 in haskell string |
| 19:26:10 | <[exa]> | nope that's 0x80 |
| 19:26:19 | <mauke> | that's 11 zero bits of payload |
| 19:26:31 | <mauke> | you're only supposed to use 7 |
| 19:26:39 | <[exa]> | yap, and 2-byte coding space starts at 0x80 |
| 19:26:47 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: TIL |
| 19:27:00 | <int-e> | [exa]: But it uses \0xC2\0x00 for 0x80 |
| 19:27:04 | <mauke> | but if you use overlong encodings, you can spend more bytes to encode shorter characters |
| 19:27:08 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: hence "overlong" |
| 19:27:10 | <int-e> | All the bits are encoded. |
| 19:27:25 | <int-e> | uhm |
| 19:27:30 | <monochrom> | Hahaha WTF-8 is a great name. |
| 19:27:31 | <int-e> | \0xC2\0x80 |
| 19:27:54 | <int-e> | (the other kind of typing error) |
| 19:27:57 | <[exa]> | ok good /me relearns utf8 |
| 19:28:08 | <tomsmeding> | \xc2\x80 -> (11)00 0010 (10)00 0000 -> 0000 1000 0000 -> 0x080 |
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| 19:28:37 | <tomsmeding> | \xf0\x80\x80\x80 -> \NUL |
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| 19:34:06 | <[exa]> | as always I underestimated redundancy |
| 19:34:25 | <tomsmeding> | makes decoding nice and simple though |
| 19:34:37 | <int-e> | the power of redundancy is the power of redundancy is the power of redundancy |
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| 19:34:50 | <tomsmeding> | no that's just recursion |
| 19:34:57 | <mauke> | red-black undancy |
| 19:35:14 | <tomsmeding> | mauke: that was redundant |
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| 19:35:52 | <monochrom> | Hey don't mock redundancy, it's basically the only solution to reliability. |
| 19:36:28 | <mauke> | yes, we have not yet found a way to completely abolish reliability |
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| 19:38:08 | <monochrom> | I wonder if I can help by starting to teach datagram sockets and omit stream sockets. |
| 19:38:33 | <tomsmeding> | no, you just need to suggest using machine learning to design CPUs |
| 19:38:40 | <mauke> | I wish I understood datagram sockets |
| 19:38:59 | <mauke> | or rather, I wish the socket functions had good documentation |
| 19:39:02 | <monochrom> | Because my students have already done the rest: Never checking for errors. |
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| 19:40:40 | <[exa]> | monochrom: writing good networking code is way above the competency of 99.9% students I ever saw |
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| 19:41:27 | <[exa]> | people just need to fail miserably on "can't write to this socket right now" before they get the message |
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| 19:41:58 | <monochrom> | Um my students are way below that. |
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| 19:42:33 | <monochrom> | They're at the level of "if I call read(fd, buf, 100) then I really get 100 bytes, no need to check return value" |
| 19:43:14 | <[exa]> | mauke: anything specific? the most stumping thing with UDP and berkeley sockets is that it can sneakily remember the peer address from you, otherwise sendto&recvfrom should just work, no? |
| 19:43:39 | <[exa]> | monochrom: ah yeah the write() problems are already after many iterations :D |
| 19:44:10 | <[exa]> | also "safety close() in destructor is OK, no hangs" |
| 19:44:38 | <monochrom> | Hrm, what should I do instead in the destructor then? |
| 19:45:20 | <[exa]> | well in this case throw the fd to the safe garbage pile of stuff that should get closed |
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| 19:53:10 | <mauke> | [exa]: what happens if I call read(fermat, buf, sizeof buf), but the buffer is too small to contain the incoming datagram? |
| 19:56:15 | <[exa]> | mauke: this is usually described in recv() docs, I think recvfrom has a note on this |
| 19:56:49 | <exarkun> | I thought Haskell was a high-level programming language concerned with robust, widely-applicable abstractions. |
| 19:57:01 | <exarkun> | Why is anybody calling `recv` |
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| 19:57:34 | <mauke> | [exa]: that's another thing. I don't understand why send/recv exist when we have write/read |
| 19:58:24 | <[exa]> | mauke: ah ok actually it is `man 7 udp` |
| 19:58:27 | <mauke> | "If a message is too long to fit in the supplied buffer, excess bytes may be discarded depending on the type of socket the message is received from." <- what does that even mean |
| 19:58:32 | <mauke> | that's not a specification |
| 19:59:11 | <[exa]> | mauke: read() and write() are not concerned about addresses, recv/send are there to work with the address semantics |
| 19:59:26 | <[exa]> | mauke: yeah, the "depending on the type of socket" is the `man 7 udp` one |
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| 20:00:21 | <mauke> | [exa]: "when it is bigger, the packet is truncated and the MSG_TRUNC flag is set." <- still not a specification |
| 20:00:29 | <mauke> | also, MSG_TRUNC is not mention again in that man page |
| 20:00:37 | <mauke> | wtf is this |
| 20:01:03 | × | FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 20:01:21 | <[exa]> | mauke: a polite way to say "don't rely on anything" |
| 20:01:42 | <int-e> | exarkun: some people have to build those abstractions |
| 20:01:57 | <mauke> | no, seriously |
| 20:01:59 | <[exa]> | mauke: it really only specifies what you can rely on, the rest was kicked out of the documentation by angry user mob :] |
| 20:02:06 | <mauke> | what does it mean to "set the MSG_TRUNC flag"? |
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| 20:03:00 | <int-e> | recv() has a flags argument; MSG_TRUNC is one of the flags you can set |
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| 20:03:49 | <[exa]> | this one you actually receive, via struct cmsghdr (back in man recv) |
| 20:03:58 | <int-e> | (seems to be Linux-specific) |
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| 20:04:07 | <mauke> | int-e: that's an input flag, not an output flag |
| 20:04:31 | <int-e> | I'm not sure where in this rabbit hole you currently are exactly |
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| 20:04:49 | <[exa]> | mauke: let's go to offtopic I guess :] |
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| 20:04:53 | <int-e> | I'm in `man 2 recv` which fits some of the context but not all. |
| 20:05:31 | <[exa]> | the problem of recv is that it's super overloaded for all the weird protocols that have been over the internet in the last 40 years or so, so it looks like that |
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| 20:09:20 | <tomsmeding> | [exa]: #haskell is the offtopic channel, #haskell-offtopic is for ontopic things |
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| 20:24:22 | <monochrom> | exarkun: We are looking for ways to abolish reliability. :) |
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| 20:36:24 | <exarkun> | int-e: I'm surprised people are building them in 2023 :) |
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| 21:14:50 | <NewtonTrendy> | whats out there regarding haskell and llms? |
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| 21:27:57 | <dminuoso> | mauke: There is no such strict requirement about unique addresses as far as I know. |
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| 22:27:44 | <mauke> | dminuoso: "Two pointers compare equal if and only if [...] both are pointers to the same object" |
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| 22:47:51 | shapr | bounces cheerfully |
| 22:47:55 | <shapr> | good evening? |
| 22:48:12 | <glguy> | mauke: which language? |
| 22:48:37 | <mauke> | C17 (draft) |
| 22:49:11 | <glguy> | did they get rid of the special case of: ...or one is a pointer to one past the end of one array object and the other is a pointer to the start of a different array object that happens to immediately follow the first array object in the address space. |
| 22:49:25 | <dibblego> | hi shapr |
| 22:49:33 | <shapr> | howdy dibblego, what's up with you? |
| 22:49:53 | <mauke> | glguy: no, that's also in there |
| 22:49:54 | <shapr> | doing any construction lately? |
| 22:49:59 | <shapr> | *type* constructions? :-D |
| 22:50:17 | <mauke> | but less relevant because we're comparing two pointers to objects |
| 22:50:34 | <dibblego> | just about to start work, how are you? |
| 22:50:48 | <shapr> | Ah, I'm writing a blog post to support this Haskell android app, it's fun. |
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