Logs on 2023-08-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:18:13 | <Inst> | curious, any haskell windows users here using monomer? |
| 05:18:14 | <Inst> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1143357633294762074/image.png?width=798&height=334 |
| 05:18:19 | <Inst> | i'm trying to figure out why this is happening |
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| 06:10:29 | <Inst> | this is f-ing disgusting |
| 06:10:51 | <Inst> | i got my monomer app to work by downloading prebuilt dlls from the internet |
| 06:10:58 | <Inst> | i'm feeling suicidal now |
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| 06:40:53 | drdo3 | is now known as drdo |
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| 07:00:48 | <Inst> | well, at least I have a non-ick solution right now |
| 07:01:24 | <Inst> | microsoft visual C++ redistributable, much more credible, and dump them in my msys directory |
| 07:01:26 | <Inst> | https://github.com/ubawurinna/freetype-windows-binaries |
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| 07:20:56 | <Inst> | @maxdamantus: thanks, so apparently freetype is broken right now |
| 07:20:56 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
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| 14:00:19 | <Square2> | Just curious, did Philip Wadler invent Maybe. If not, who did? |
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| 14:01:00 | <ncf> | who invented natural numbers? |
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| 14:15:02 | <leah2> | surely sml had an optional type before |
| 14:15:13 | <leah2> | not sure which programming language had it first tho |
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| 14:22:51 | <lortabac> | AFAIK Hope was the first language with algebraic data types |
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| 14:24:05 | <lortabac> | but I don't know who invented Maybe, it might be Wadler indeed |
| 14:25:47 | <ncf> | i don't think that makes much sense |
| 14:28:19 | <lortabac> | it makes sense from a historical perspective. Even though the idea may be as ancient as humankind, its application to programming languages definitely must have a clear origin |
| 14:29:57 | <ncf> | so "applied", not "invented" |
| 14:30:48 | <ncf> | otherwise by the same reasoning Wadler invented monads... |
| 14:31:20 | <ncf> | (well, i think he did not even apply them. he popularised them based on earlier work by Moggi, or something) |
| 14:37:01 | <dolio> | Wadler came up with the idea of talking about them within the language to structure programs. Moggi was using them for semantics of languages, I believe. |
| 14:44:15 | <danse-nr3_> | what is interesting in the question is the interpretation of "invented Maybe". For instance lortabac seeing it as the use of algebraic data types |
| 14:46:11 | <lortabac> | I mean, having ADT's is 95% of the job :) |
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| 14:50:14 | <danse-nr3_> | another aspect that i find very interesting is that the question sheds some light on Maybe as being a very elegant solution despite its simplicity. Was one of my arguments for having an `head` that returns a `Maybe`, so that haskellers are exposed earlier to this type of monad |
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| 15:21:08 | <EvanR> | if you use safeHead make sure to include safeFromJust |
| 15:24:13 | <EvanR> | :t listToMaybe -- danse-nr3_ |
| 15:24:14 | <lambdabot> | [a] -> Maybe a |
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| 15:25:07 | <dolio> | The thing is that safe head isn't very useful. The list is just as good. |
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| 15:25:20 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 15:27:00 | <lortabac> | it's useful if you pass the result to another function instead of pattern-matching immediately |
| 15:27:58 | <danse-nr3_> | maybe it is something about accessibility, i landed on headMay from Safe and listToMaybe never occurred to me as an alternative, but it is so thanks for the pointer |
| 15:28:10 | <dolio> | If the other thing already takes a Maybe. |
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| 15:28:14 | <lortabac> | it might not be the most common case, but it does happen from time to time |
| 15:28:50 | <mauke> | logical xor is just /= |
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| 15:29:15 | <dolio> | I said it's not very useful, not that there are absolutely no situations where it might be what you want. |
| 15:30:13 | <danse-nr3_> | the value i see is providing newcomers with something that does not explode at runtime, but i did not want to bring back the conversation again |
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| 15:31:04 | <danse-nr3_> | is safeFromJust not what we have already with fromMaybe? |
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| 15:33:03 | <mauke> | safeFromJust = id |
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| 15:33:14 | <danse-nr3_> | (: |
| 15:36:56 | <danse-nr3_> | thinking about it twice, maybe i know why i landed on headMay rather than listToMaybe. The function name is telling, when one works with lists it does make sense to reach out for a set of functions that do what you need. That could be the head sometimes, the tail or the last other times |
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| 15:47:23 | <EvanR> | newWildlyProfitableMMORPG :: IO (IO ()) |
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| 16:19:08 | <int-e> | EvanR: where do I join? |
| 16:19:43 | <EvanR> | i'll tell you after I find the API call and execute it |
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| 18:16:18 | <danse-nr3> | introducing flips to get point-free. I am worried i might be slipping to the dark side |
| 18:16:57 | <geekosaur> | you're just flipping out |
| 18:18:05 | <ncf> | don't forget to write it infix: f `flip` y |
| 18:20:32 | <justsomeguy> | I find Data.Function ((&)) much more readable than (.) for some reason. |
| 18:20:53 | <danse-nr3> | ncf: trippy, but not for my case. I want to pass a point-free function to a zipWith that needs it backwards to be point-free itself |
| 18:21:37 | <danse-nr3> | justsomeguy, it should be more readable to most, being close to sequential execution in imperative programming, but for some reason i sometimes like `&` better and other times `.` |
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| 18:22:11 | <danse-nr3> | but actually i think the opposite of & is $ |
| 18:23:18 | <EvanR> | h . g . f is more readable than h $ g $ f $ x but you have to defer the "of x" to another line somewhere |
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| 18:24:49 | <danse-nr3> | yeah $ is quite noisy |
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| 18:26:31 | <EvanR> | *the power of the dot* |
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| 18:30:27 | phma_ | is now known as phma |
| 18:30:48 | <monochrom> | flip is not too bad. |
| 18:31:36 | <monochrom> | But if you go further and want combinators for all permutations of argument orders, then that's bad. >:) |
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| 18:32:36 | <dminuoso> | EvanR: Why not combine the two? h . g . f $ x |
| 18:33:10 | <monochrom> | Let's also have: x & h . g . f >:) |
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| 18:35:32 | <EvanR> | I usually do (h . g . f) x if it has to happen now and this is not quick and dirty code |
| 18:35:54 | <EvanR> | where I forgot to put ( |
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| 18:36:26 | <monochrom> | Yeah I often write "(h . g . f) x", and sometimes I feel like "h . g . f $ x" too. |
| 18:36:53 | <danse-nr3> | `h . g . f $ x` is just reasonable. Less noise |
| 18:37:21 | <monochrom> | I just avoid using $ when teaching. To the point I write "(<*>) = liftA2 (\f x -> f x)". |
| 18:37:48 | <danse-nr3> | because $ needs special handling, right? |
| 18:38:05 | <monochrom> | No, because I want students to respect parentheses. |
| 18:38:29 | <EvanR> | higher chance of chad developer throwing their hands up and declaring haskell has too many operators |
| 18:38:37 | <mauke> | we should make h . g . f) x legal syntax |
| 18:38:43 | <EvanR> | ^ |
| 18:39:29 | <monochrom> | My opinion is unfair to $ but we all know statistically and empirically that the way it turns out is that beginners cargo-cult $ as "it eliminates parentheses" with zero understanding. I want to discourage that. |
| 18:40:25 | <EvanR> | we should take inspiration from zig, whose bracket pattern looks like { var r = acquireResource(); defer releaseResource(); ... the body code ...; } |
| 18:40:44 | <monochrom> | Whereas for professionals and production code I'm pragmatic and I agree with "whatever that works". |
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| 18:41:41 | <monochrom> | I think I prefer s/defer/on exit/ which brings us back to BASIC >:) |
| 18:41:42 | <EvanR> | by the time you get to the end of writing that code you don't remember to release. Better to rearrange the order of the code to match the writers brain |
| 18:42:06 | <monochrom> | I think our bracket has that order too. |
| 18:42:13 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 18:42:25 | <EvanR> | blast |
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| 18:42:59 | <monochrom> | To the point I forgot that order and wrote "bracket open body close" and then for 5 minutes couldn't get it to work. >:( :D |
| 18:43:11 | <geekosaur> | lol |
| 18:43:13 | <shapr> | make a friendly alias? |
| 18:43:17 | <mauke> | { my $r = acquire_resource(); my $guard = End { release_resource() }; ... } # RAII, baby |
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| 18:44:10 | <mauke> | brketac a b c = bracket a c b |
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| 18:44:49 | <EvanR> | ket c . b . bra a |
| 18:44:58 | <monochrom> | I'm good with bracket's order, and EvanR has just explained a good reason for that order. I just forgot that Haskell is ideal. |
| 18:45:45 | <EvanR> | ok, bra's are functions in quantum mechanics so that's why they go first |
| 18:45:57 | <EvanR> | so bra should release the resource |
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| 20:49:09 | shapr | hops quietly |
| 20:49:39 | <Rembane> | Hi shapr! |
| 20:49:44 | <Rembane> | shapr: Are you making beer? |
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| 20:51:30 | <shapr> | ha, no |
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| 20:51:46 | <shapr> | I'm reading gabriella's nixos in production book and being distracted by differential dataflow |
| 20:51:54 | <shapr> | Rembane: doing anything fun? |
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| 20:56:57 | <Rembane> | shapr: Good stuff! I'm watching Twitch and chilling very actively. I tried to have Nix build and configure a DigitalOcean VPS for me yesterday but I don't seem to have enough neither RAM nor harddrive space to do it, so I'm considering just setting up the machine manually soon. |
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| 21:07:21 | <Guest|67> | How can i download haskell on my maCos Hig Sierra 10.13.6? |
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| 21:11:57 | <danza_> | Guest|67, try haskell.org/ghcup |
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| 21:18:10 | <Guest|67> | Thanku but I have already tried, it told me that if I have this modell or lower I have to upgrade or that I need sepperate binaries which I did not quite understand |
| 21:22:18 | × | td_ quits (~td@i53870937.versanet.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 21:24:22 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|67: if you have the exact error message that you got, people here might recognise it and be able to point you in the right direction |
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| 21:25:50 | <Guest|67> | This is what I got: |
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| 21:28:05 | <Guest|67> | ==> You are using macOS 10.13. |
| 21:28:05 | <Guest|67> | ==> We (and Apple) do not provide support for this old version. |
| 21:28:06 | <Guest|67> | This installation may not succeed. |
| 21:28:06 | <Guest|67> | After installation, you will encounter build failures with some formulae. |
| 21:28:07 | <Guest|67> | Please create pull requests instead of asking for help on Homebrew's GitHub, |
| 21:28:07 | <Guest|67> | Twitter or any other official channels. You are responsible for resolving any |
| 21:28:08 | <Guest|67> | issues you experience while you are running this old version. |
| 21:28:08 | <Guest|67> | ==> This script will install: |
| 21:28:12 | <Guest|67> | ==> The Xcode Command Line Tools will be installed. |
| 21:28:12 | <Guest|67> | Press RETURN/ENTER to continue or any other key to abort: |
| 21:28:34 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|67: did you try to continue? |
| 21:29:13 | <tomsmeding> | also, for what purpose do you want to install haskell? Would you, for example, be okay with not getting the latest version? |
| 21:29:28 | <Guest|67> | yes |
| 21:29:31 | × | Buggys quits (Buggys@Buggy.shelltalk.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 21:29:32 | <tomsmeding> | (I have to leave now; perhaps others can help) |
| 21:29:37 | <Guest|67> | this what was written: |
| 21:29:43 | <Guest|67> | ress RETURN/ENTER to continue or any other key to abort: |
| 21:29:44 | <Guest|67> | ==> /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/chown -R yemsrachabebe:admin /usr/local/Homebrew |
| 21:29:44 | <Guest|67> | ==> Searching online for the Command Line Tools |
| 21:29:45 | <Guest|67> | ==> /usr/bin/sudo /usr/bin/touch /tmp/.com.apple.dt.CommandLineTools.installondemand.in-progress |
| 21:29:45 | <Guest|67> | ==> Installing Command Line Tools (macOS High Sierra version 10.13) for Xcode-10.1 |
| 21:29:46 | <Guest|67> | ==> /usr/bin/sudo /usr/sbin/softwareupdate -i Command\ Line\ Tools\ (macOS\ High\ Sierra\ version\ 10.13)\ for\ Xcode-10.1 |
| 21:29:46 | <Guest|67> | Software Update Tool |
| 21:29:47 | <Guest|67> | Downloading Command Line Tools (macOS High Sierra version 10.13) for Xcode |
| 21:29:49 | <tomsmeding> | @where paste |
| 21:29:49 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
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| 21:29:52 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|67: ^ |
| 21:30:01 | <tomsmeding> | please don't flood the channel :) |
| 21:30:34 | <yushyin> | can't you just update macos first? |
| 21:33:35 | <Guest|67> | Is thAT POSSIBLE? I dont think so cause 10.13.6 is the modell of this computer |
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| 21:35:49 | <yushyin> | I don't know, that's why I'm asking. If my operating system version is EOL, I would update it. |
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| 22:05:48 | <monochrom> | I think I also heard that some macos updates/upgrades cost money. |
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| 22:15:34 | <geekosaur> | they also EOL hardware in some upgrades |
| 22:16:10 | <monochrom> | yeah :( |
| 22:17:26 | <monochrom> | Two decades ago I admired the Macbook and I said to myself "one day when I have money I should switch to Macbook". |
| 22:17:49 | <monochrom> | I had no money for the next decade, therefore disaster averted >:D |
| 22:18:41 | <monochrom> | By the time I had money, I had had also seen enough tech support questions on #haskell that "OK nevermind, I'll stick to Linux". |
| 22:19:04 | <monochrom> | (more accurately "Linux on cheap x86 laptops") |
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| 22:50:45 | <EvanR> | my macbook air just died, not 10 years old |
| 22:51:27 | <EvanR> | a lot of replacement keys were thrown at this guy to keep it afloat |
| 22:51:51 | <EvanR> | it also wasn't really getting OS updates |
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| 23:01:07 | <shapr> | Rembane: I'm using gandi vps because it has a NixOS image option, but gandi has gone downhill since being sold, so I'll have to find something else |
| 23:01:43 | <shapr> | EvanR: what's the replacement? maybe a frame.work ? |
| 23:04:42 | geekosaur | grins |
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| 23:22:45 | <EvanR> | currently the "replacement" is an underpowered 5 year old dell inspiron laptop that has been doing windows updates for a week |
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| 23:59:09 | <Inst> | i sort of got bored and decided to make a joke library, although I hope it's actually useful (asset manager for file deployment within, alongside, or from the network) |
| 23:59:24 | <Inst> | it's a joke because i'm glossing on all sorts of ridiculous types |
| 23:59:56 | <Inst> | datatypecontexts are dead, right? There's no other way to put out a constraint on a newtype, right? |
All times are in UTC on 2023-08-22.