Logs on 2023-08-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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04:37:46	<Inst>	been thinking about this
04:37:47	<Inst>	https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/leaving_haskell_behind_infinite_negative_utility/
04:38:09	<Inst>	I don't really have the position to propose or advocate for this, but how would Haskellers feel about declaring 2024 or 2025 to be the Year of the Haskell Ecosystem?
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04:42:10	<EvanR>	is that like National Haskell Day but just 365 of it
04:45:09	<EvanR>	the blogger basically switched to rust
04:45:23	<institor>	> linking "posts" and "ideas" from reddit
04:45:25	<institor>	ishygddt
04:45:25	<lambdabot>	error:
04:45:25	<lambdabot>	Variable not in scope:
04:45:25	<lambdabot>	linking
04:45:55	<Inst>	i mean ecosystem could use love
04:46:00	<institor>	ah, i guess it's just one level of indirection from the actual "leaving haskell behind" blog post
04:46:03	<institor>	which was indeed well written
04:46:04	<Inst>	that was posted onto HackerNews
04:46:43	<Inst>	everything in Haskell has improved dramatically over the past 5 years; the easiest retort to that poster is "you last used Haskell professionally in 2018 / 2019, tooling has advanced tremendously"
04:46:45	<institor>	yes i have some 10+ yr old projects that are difficult to keep limping along thanks to the constant breakage
04:46:56	<institor>	i ran into an issue with an older version of GHC on a pretty old stack LTS resolver
04:47:05	<institor>	that simply wasn't going to be fixed because that version of GHC is two major versions behind
04:47:06	<EvanR>	I learned to habitually click through the reddit links to the actual thing begin linked
04:47:19	<institor>	the tooling prior to the emergence of stack
04:47:21	<institor>	was disastrous
04:47:22	<EvanR>	which was not obvious for a long time to me because it's not prominent
04:47:28	<institor>	as for the academic obscurantism, i can't say
04:47:43	<institor>	EvanR: reddit is the bottom of the barrel of the infosphere
04:47:50	<institor>	i would simply refrain from using it entirely.
04:47:57	<EvanR>	the reddit link was posted to hacker news?
04:48:05	<institor>	the blog post that reddit linked to was
04:48:12	<institor>	it was front page for a day or so
04:48:12	<EvanR>	oh
04:48:34	<Inst>	the only thing that hasn't really improved that much is the ecosystem
04:48:46	<Inst>	tooling, learning materials have improved a lot
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04:48:55	<Inst>	I suppose hype, enthusiasm has died down a bit
04:49:04	<Inst>	but ecosystem is where there's still room for improvement, no?
04:49:12	<institor>	Inst: it would need serious industry investment to get onto the same level as other "mainstream" languages
04:49:26	<Inst>	or you could be a Maoist
04:49:27	<institor>	language ecosystems need real skin in the game to develop "enterpise-grade" tooling
04:49:35	<Inst>	you mean the tooling stuff?
04:49:38	<institor>	and cause a famine killing tens of millions? no thanks
04:49:48	<shapr>	I think we write a shell script that wraps cabal and release it as the final release of stack
04:49:48	<institor>	Inst: yes
04:49:52	<Inst>	yeah, tbh, thanks for letting me think of how a year of Haskell ecosystem can go wrong
04:49:56	<Inst>	i'm working on GUI cabal again
04:50:01	<institor>	> GUI
04:50:03	<institor>	> cabal
04:50:04	<lambdabot>	error: Data constructor not in scope: GUI
04:50:05	<lambdabot>	error: Variable not in scope: cabal
04:50:08	<institor>	ishygddt
04:50:18	<shapr>	what does ishygddt mean?
04:50:23	<Inst>	https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144686948091437106/image.png
04:50:23	<shapr>	Is that Yiddish?
04:50:25	<institor>	"i seriously hope you guys don't do this"
04:50:33	<shapr>	ah
04:50:34	<Inst>	https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/280033776820813825/1144707118579064912/image.png?width=229&height=468
04:50:36	<shapr>	so it is Yiddish, ok
04:50:40	<institor>	haha
04:50:45	<EvanR>	really, the idea that every language should make "be the next php, ruby on rails, server-side javascript, elixir, whatever" an objective seems questionable
04:50:56	<EvanR>	when people say that about idris it's ridiculous
04:51:09	<institor>	haskell and idris originated as research languages
04:51:18	<institor>	not tools for private industry to "ship it"
04:51:20	<shapr>	yup
04:51:29	<c_wraith>	that's not strictly true of Haskell
04:51:32	<Inst>	by Maoist, I just mean, declaring 2024-2025 the year of Haskell Ecosystem, asking people to contribute and try to make new libraries / help maintain and upgrade older libraries
04:51:38	<shapr>	c_wraith: oh, how so?
04:51:45	<shapr>	I thought Haskell was an open source version of Miranda
04:51:59	<Inst>	like, you can't really direct the entire Haskell community toward making Cabal better / Stack / GHCup better
04:52:05	<shapr>	why not?
04:52:15	<shapr>	We could declare ourselves the entire community and then go fix things?
04:52:15	<institor>	Inst: you need to pay a sizeable cohort of skilled practitioners to do that
04:52:17	<Inst>	I think those projects are already relatively well-staffed, and can't really grow without creating coordination difficulties
04:52:21	<institor>	which is what all the other major language ecosystems do
04:52:23	<shapr>	mmm, no
04:52:29	<institor>	and they need to dogfood whatever it is they build
04:52:29	<shapr>	I mean, those projects are not well staffed
04:52:33	<c_wraith>	the goals of the original Haskell committee were to make a language that could be used for language research and writing production software. Like, it was explicitly a goal.
04:52:36	<institor>	on real projects in production
04:52:36	<sclv>	cabal stack and ghcup all need more contributors
04:52:39	<shapr>	yup
04:52:55	<sclv>	i say this as someone who is a contributor to cabal, and who has worked on helping ghcup in the past
04:53:00	shapr	hugs sclv
04:53:05	<Inst>	well, what are the other options @institor?
04:53:06	<shapr>	sclv: oh hey, will you be at ICFP?
04:53:11	<institor>	Inst: i just presented one
04:53:18	<Inst>	where's the money?
04:53:20	<sclv>	the latter especially put out a call for more help, because its maintainer is overworked and needs to step back from doing as much active development
04:53:23	<institor>	Inst: good question
04:53:31	<sclv>	shapr: yep, looking forward to it!
04:53:37	<shapr>	yay! I hope to see you there
04:53:47	<Inst>	option 1: magical money acquisition, option 2: keep things as is, keep the same level of ecosystem growth, option 3: declare jihad?
04:53:48	<shapr>	I send $20 a month to the haskell language server project
04:54:04	<c_wraith>	The very first design goal for the original Haskell committee: "It should be suitable for teaching, research, and applications, including building large systems."
04:54:08	<Inst>	iirc ben gamari has maintainer status on ghcup, no?
04:54:10	<institor>	Inst: spoken like a redditor
04:54:15	<shapr>	ben gamari has far too many things to do
04:54:23	<EvanR>	Inst, option zero focus on a more appropriate language for the actual business objectives
04:54:32	<shapr>	Last I checked, bgamari is also the GHC release manager and a few other things
04:54:42	<Inst>	EvanR: option 4: give up, let Haskell slowly decay and accept senescence
04:54:46	<Inst>	declare victory and use Rust instead
04:54:46	<sclv>	we have more money behind haskell than ever before, and structure too, thanks to the haskell foundation
04:54:56	<shapr>	sclv: oh that's great! I didn't know that!
04:55:19	<Inst>	is just use Rust going to be a new Haskeller thing to say?
04:55:21	<sclv>	i mean arguably the in-kind we've gotten from msr and galois etc in the past has been semi-comparable, but its much better structured and more sustainable now
04:55:35	<EvanR>	yes use Rust for the enterprise server level stuff you're hinting at
04:55:38	<shapr>	inst: want to attend one of the Haskell Foundation calls and see what things we could work on?
04:55:43	<EvanR>	much better hype department
04:55:47	<shapr>	institor: yeah?
04:55:51	<Inst>	i'm really just a codemonkey, a redditor, and an idiot
04:56:02	<shapr>	I saw you say code, so that's a yes?
04:56:09	<Inst>	not really contributing, i guess the file asset manager lib i'm working on and the cabal GUI lib i'm working on
04:56:09	shapr	grins
04:56:16	<institor>	do you have an issue tracker
04:56:27	<Inst>	is my hail mary on being relevant and useful
04:56:56	<institor>	i am loathe to get on voice calls these days
04:57:07	<institor>	it reminds me of living the corpo lifestyle
04:57:13	<shapr>	institor: for cabal? https://github.com/haskell/cabal
04:57:17	<institor>	for stack
04:57:25	<shapr>	Oh, I dunno
04:57:26	<institor>	i like to pretend cabal does not exist
04:57:32	<shapr>	I like to pretend stack does not exist
04:57:36	<sclv>	https://github.com/commercialhaskell/stack
04:57:36	<institor>	hmmmm
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04:57:47	<Inst>	i like to pretend neither cabal nor stack exist ;)
04:57:55	<EvanR>	just makefiles?
04:57:57	<shapr>	I haven't written much Haskell the past few weeks, sadly.
04:58:00	<institor>	ah yes we'll just rewrite everything
04:58:08	<Inst>	i'm joking, just taking the third option on cabal vs stack war
04:58:08	<institor>	i propose starting with the microarchitecture
04:58:18	<Inst>	also implicitly, yes, makefiles & nix
04:58:28	<shapr>	I do love nix
04:58:35	shapr	looks for an easy issue
04:58:51	<Inst>	how big is the Haskell production community, anyways?
04:58:57	<shapr>	institor: did you find a nice stack issue?
04:58:57	<Inst>	any estimates?
04:59:07	<Inst>	IHP apparently managed to get 250 people working on IHP projects
04:59:17	<Inst>	I'm derisive of IHP, but IHP exists, grows the community
04:59:24	<institor>	shapr: nope
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04:59:33	<institor>	Inst: facebook ran haskell in production at some point
04:59:39	<institor>	i think part of their spam filtering engine
04:59:42	<Inst>	facebook should still be running Haskell in production
04:59:47	<institor>	why
04:59:47	<shapr>	facebook still does run haskell
04:59:52	<Inst>	it was rumored that they decommissioned one of their Haskell systems
04:59:55	<shapr>	they did
05:00:02	<shapr>	they decommissioned the spam filter
05:00:04	<shapr>	then they put it back
05:00:08	<Inst>	wait what?
05:00:11	<shapr>	yup
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05:00:20	<Inst>	it'll also be funny if Hasura can't rewrite it in Rust
05:00:23	<institor>	https://engineering.fb.com/2015/06/26/security/fighting-spam-with-haskell/
05:00:48	<shapr>	inst: where's your file asset manager?
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05:00:53	<institor>	look, part of the reason private industry doesn't run haskell
05:00:56	<Inst>	it's some basic prototype right now
05:00:59	<institor>	is that it's hard to hire people to write it
05:01:05	<institor>	and expensive to train them if they can't
05:01:16	<institor>	and expensive to maintain those systems for reasons outlined in that infinitenegativeutility post
05:01:19	<Inst>	the idea is that it just packages stuff via file-embed (I'm thinking about rewriting it), generate assets
05:01:24	<shapr>	institor: no?
05:01:29	<institor>	no??
05:01:34	<shapr>	agreed
05:01:43	<shapr>	It's pretty easy to hire Haskell devs
05:01:46	<institor>	i suppose if we could train people to write c++
05:01:48	<shapr>	and private industry does use Haskell
05:01:50	<Inst>	create sha256 hash, verify vs sha256 hash, download files from internet, etc
05:01:52	<institor>	we can train them to run anything
05:02:17	<shapr>	institor: Have you had a Haskell job?
05:02:22	<institor>	shapr: hah! i wish
05:02:24	<shapr>	or worked at a company that used Haskell professionally?
05:02:28	<shapr>	I've had two
05:02:36	<institor>	maybe it's time to dust off the resume
05:02:39	<shapr>	yeah, do it!
05:02:53	<Inst>	it's not really a useful lib, just some convenience for people who can't be arsed to get data-files working or use a packager
05:03:17	<shapr>	This job we made an Android app with Haskell
05:03:24	<institor>	so bold
05:03:33	<shapr>	yeah, it's in the play store if you want to try it
05:03:37	<Inst>	oh wait, you were the guys who paid Obsidian money for 1 hour per week support?
05:03:38	<institor>	i didn't even know you could target dalvik
05:03:40	<shapr>	yup
05:04:00	<institor>	wouldn't all the FFI be a pain
05:04:07	<shapr>	https://shapr.github.io/posts/2023-07-25-android-app-in-haskell.html
05:04:10	<Inst>	iirc you're still locked to 8.8, right?
05:04:12	<shapr>	see look! shapr !
05:04:16	<shapr>	nah, 8.10.7
05:05:16	<shapr>	institor: so, having worked with about seventy professional Haskellers at different times, I think you can hire Haskell devs
05:05:33	<shapr>	Having done some training at this job, I think you can train people even if they have zero prior experience
05:05:33	<institor>	sure
05:05:42	<institor>	but it's harder than working with masses of bootcamp devs
05:05:49	<institor>	and you draw from a smaller talent pool
05:05:50	<shapr>	mmmm, I'm not sure I agree
05:05:53	<institor>	heheh
05:05:57	<institor>	have you worked with bootcamp devs?
05:06:00	<shapr>	oh yes, many times
05:06:29	<shapr>	Some of them are extremely motivated and are quickly building understanding
05:06:33	<shapr>	Some of them aren't
05:06:40	<institor>	i am still scarred by my brief stint in web dev with the latter cohort
05:06:40	<shapr>	It depends on the bootcamp
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05:06:50	<institor>	i tried explaining what "XOR" is
05:06:52	<institor>	they just didn't get it
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05:06:57	<institor>	and had no inclination to understand
05:07:04	<shapr>	I enjoy training and teaching, so I'm happy to work with anyone who wants to learn
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05:07:10	<shapr>	I learn just as much from motivated people
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05:07:22	<institor>	yes, teaching others is a great way to solidify your own understanding
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05:08:27	<Inst>	institor: you want me to drag out the HackerNews comment wherein someone claims they can train a newbie Haskeller to production level in 2-3 weeks on average
05:08:34	<Inst>	and get them comfortable with the entire ecosystem within 6 months?
05:08:41	<shapr>	Heh, I do know several people who can do that
05:08:45	<institor>	look hackernews is a bubble of people who are halfway competent
05:08:49	<shapr>	gabriella, for example
05:08:51	<shapr>	I can't do that
05:08:56	<institor>	maybe becoming less than halfway competent in recent years
05:09:06	<Inst>	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23621930
05:09:09	<institor>	there are industry folk who don't even read hacker news at all
05:09:13	<institor>	and couldn't care less
05:09:22	<institor>	> Google
05:09:24	<lambdabot>	error: Data constructor not in scope: Google
05:09:29	<institor>	even in 2020 that was still cream of the crop
05:09:34	<Inst>	https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview
05:09:42	<shapr>	frustrating thing is that Hacker News is the intellectial center for people who didn't read the article but will tell you why they're right anyway.
05:09:47	<institor>	haha
05:09:57	<institor>	shapr: that is an ancient and venerable tradition dating back to /.
05:09:57	<shapr>	Like, that whole chunk of people who have never tried Haskell, but have very strong opinions on it
05:10:01	<institor>	RTFA, you insensitive clod!
05:10:42	<shapr>	I gave a talk today on a related subject
05:11:12	<shapr>	institor: have you tried to teach Haskell to anyone?
05:11:37	<institor>	not over any prolonged span of time no
05:11:47	<shapr>	You should, it's really fun
05:11:52	<shapr>	I mean, you might enjoy it.
05:11:59	<institor>	maybe once i recover from burnout
05:12:14	<institor>	those fucking on call shifts man
05:12:16	<shapr>	I like the sudden burst of rainbows I see in someone's eyes when they finally get the idea of equational reasoning
05:12:32	<institor>	i was disheartened to ctrl-f "referential transparency" in that infinitenegativeutility article
05:12:33	<institor>	and find no results
05:12:45	<institor>	but maybe that kind of academic jargon scares people away
05:13:17	<shapr>	I'm giving a five minute talk on hole driven development next week
05:13:33	<sclv>	its a fine article imho, by someone i recognize as a longtime productive haskeller. the things getty highlights as good i agree with. the things highlighted as painpoints i also agree could be better but also... i just don't mind.
05:13:42	<institor>	the typechecker can serve the same purpose as a test suite in strongly statically typed languages
05:13:51	<shapr>	I disagree
05:13:58	<institor>	sure, it's actually even stronger
05:14:00	<Inst>	and tbh, i'd be dishonest if i didn't admit HLS crashes on me at least twice an hour on a trivial project
05:14:01	<Inst>	:(
05:14:01	<institor>	types prove the absence of bugs
05:14:04	<institor>	tests prove their existence
05:14:10	<shapr>	Inst: which version are you using?
05:14:16	<Inst>	latest, but i'm on arch
05:14:20	<shapr>	is HLS being oom killed?
05:14:21	<Inst>	and using something from AUR
05:14:30	<sclv>	i learned to program with an emacs window and a console, and that's still how i do it. i used ides a bit in javaland and c# land and they were necessary, but in the end i'm happier when i don't need them, and with haskell i don't
05:14:33	<institor>	the haskell package subtree in arch is hell
05:14:40	<Inst>	i'd rather struggle through ctrl shift p
05:14:43	<institor>	something always fucking breaks after a system update
05:14:49	<institor>	i just gave up and do everything through stack
05:14:52	<shapr>	institor: I don't agree. The type system can eliminate some flavors of errors, but you still need tests.
05:14:58	<institor>	shapr: i use both
05:15:12	<institor>	what i mean by that is you are constantly interrogating the system with both approaches
05:15:16	<sclv>	right. you have to use a separate toolchain on arch -- stack, or ghcup+cabal both work. but avoid the system packages
05:15:20	<institor>	to get feedback on how it's actually operating
05:15:29	<institor>	and updating your mental model as you converse with the typechecker and/or test suite
05:15:33	<Inst>	and restarting VSC
05:15:35	<shapr>	I do like that approaoch
05:15:44	<shapr>	I've called that "conversations with correctness"
05:15:54	<institor>	that's an interesting turn of phrase
05:16:10	<sclv>	the other point in getty's article is the breaking change stuff, and uh... i've never found it that bad. certainly not lately. we have a lot of people running around and fixing stuff up. and when we don't, its never more than half a day or so of effort to do it myself.
05:16:18	<Inst>	sclv: Haskell IDE is really powerful for a beginner, though
05:16:30	<sclv>	sure, it could be. i just.. wouldn't know
05:16:55	<sclv>	i know when i left ides behind when i picked up haskell after a stint in javaland, at first it was really disconcerting, and then it was a relief
05:17:12	<institor>	i still use vim for fuck's sake
05:17:22	<Inst>	i wrote Haskell in wordpad for a bit, it was ironically more convenient because VSC was a resource hog, and so far, Helix / Vim are enigmas
05:17:26	<institor>	vscoders and intellij users don't even know what that is anymore
05:17:50	<Inst>	iirc, there's HLS support for Vim / NeoVim, and presumably Helix
05:17:53	<sclv>	a difference between now and the Bad Old Days is i also use github codesearch a ton in browsing code, which you didn't have back then
05:18:07	<institor>	yes i've run intero with neovim in the past
05:18:08	<sclv>	but between that and haddocks and an adequate use of grep, i don't even bother with tags files
05:18:09	<institor>	it's great
05:18:40	<institor>	forget it, i just grep my way through everything
05:18:41	<danza__>	tag files are robust, easy and handy
05:18:42	<institor>	linux is the IDE
05:18:48	<institor>	type faster
05:18:51	<danza__>	with emacs, at least
05:19:12	<sclv>	and when there's a missing library, i take it as an opportunity to try to write one, which is a good challenge. helps that i've had jobs that have afforded me that, i grant.
05:19:30	<institor>	and then you get to quarterly review...
05:19:40	<institor>	"what IMPACT have you had over the past four months??"
05:19:48	<institor>	lmfao
05:20:01	<institor>	it's all about the money dawg
05:20:13	<danza__>	interesting that you thought it was difficult to hire haskellers, but never had an haskell job institor
05:20:16	<sclv>	i get paid the same regardless
05:20:49	<institor>	well maybe i will look for one
05:21:02	<institor>	and not hate my life slinging "mainstream" languages
05:21:08	<sclv>	my job is to write good software. the business side and managers can worry about money and impact -- the best way they get something that can actually be sold and maintained is to let us engineers cook
05:21:16	<danza__>	oh, i see, you did not look for one yet
05:21:17	<institor>	sclv: well spoken
05:21:30	<Inst>	rtbh there are people who have the opposite impression, i.e, Haskellers are underemployed and are a good deal for the talent you get for the money
05:21:35	<institor>	danza__: well i just fell into the grooves of the industry
05:21:44	<institor>	i mean i could have networked my way into a haskell position
05:21:50	<Inst>	Parsons tries to disabuse readers of that notion, though
05:21:52	<institor>	i had a colleague who ended up working for fintech or something slinging haskell
05:21:59	<institor>	though i find his peers somewhat intimidating
05:22:03	<institor>	they _really_ know what they're doing
05:22:52	<institor>	i'm not unhappy with my prior experience though
05:23:40	<Inst>	so, @sclv: should I make a thread on Discourse to ask what people think about trying to do a year of Haskell ecosystem?
05:24:01	<danza__>	do you really think that is how it works?
05:24:14	<danza__>	you think an ecosystem can change with a community call?
05:24:18	<institor>	haha
05:24:20	<sclv>	idk if we're well situated for that effort yet.
05:24:24	<institor>	as i said above you need real investment from people with skin in the game
05:24:31	<institor>	who dogfood whatever it is they build on real production systems
05:24:32	<sclv>	maybe next year -- there's a lot of work that's been coming down the pipes.
05:24:53	<Inst>	yeah okay, i should focus on my projects
05:24:59	<sclv>	i think it might be good to reach out to david and other hf people and see where you can best plug in, or how you could help coordinate something
05:25:28	<Inst>	it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal
05:25:28	<sclv>	maybe like help to synthesize a big picture list of the main issues people want tackled -- which i know the hf has already put some work into, but you could help bring to fruition as a "hitlist"
05:25:35	<Inst>	what I'm really trying to do is to trade a mentorship for labor deal
05:25:37	<sclv>	hecate is overworked already lmao
05:25:52	<Inst>	they're working on GHCup
05:25:56	<Inst>	with bradrn
05:26:00	<Inst>	on getting a GUI wrapper on that
05:26:19	<sclv>	if we had a hitlist and a set of people leading the way on various initiatives, then a coordinated call for volunteers makes sense
05:26:24	<Inst>	feels weird thta I'm moving faster because bradrn is working with gi-gtk or something like that, I'm working with monomer, and gi-gtk-declarative iirc is dead?
05:26:39	<institor>	i'm going to make a breakfast wrap now
05:26:41	<institor>	at 1am
05:26:43	<sclv>	my experience organizing volunteers is you get people excited but they can't self-start, certainly not as a cohesive group, without a lot of surrounding structure
05:26:43	<institor>	bbiab
05:26:53	<Inst>	interesting
05:27:04	<sclv>	picking maybe one infra tool and trying to give it more structure in development and help its onboarding could be a place to start
05:27:07	<Inst>	but tbh the point of the post was more to ask for perspectives and see if HF wanted to get in on this and coordinate
05:27:24	<sclv>	like maybe trying to do a series of intro-talks/hackathon events for hls, or a code formatter, or etc
05:27:29	<Inst>	but you agree that ecosystem could use some love, and a coordinated volunteer effort through the community might improve things?
05:27:53	<sclv>	sure, but also i think a lot of people agree and that's a big goal of HF already
05:28:05	<sclv>	i'm trying to spitball to some concrete ways to get that going
05:28:26	<sclv>	and i think maybe doing a rotating "onboarding/introduction" series to pieces of the ecosystem could be it
05:29:14	<Inst>	could you specify what that means?
05:29:24	<danza__>	i mean we are discussing GUIs and HLS, while fundamental tools like cabal are not in a great state
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05:29:43	<sclv>	say one a month, with a few weekly blogposts 1) explaining the architecture of each 2) big outstanding future issues on the roadmap, and maybe 3) the state of the development process and then in the fourth week there's a remote hackathon where people can join and get assigned issues to start looking at and mentorship in working on them
05:29:48	<Inst>	oh
05:30:16	<Inst>	https://newaverageandpragmatic.blogspot.com/2023/08/haskell-kaiseki-cookbook.html
05:30:40	<Inst>	i think one disappointment with Gabriella Gonzalez's
05:31:30	<Inst>	oh wait, she DID do a tutorial
05:31:31	<Inst>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3qjTVcU9cg
05:32:42	<shapr>	sclv: onboarding would be great
05:33:45	<Inst>	ah, i guess what we were thinking was different; i was thinking was more tutorial-oriented
05:38:30	<Inst>	sclv?
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05:42:05	<danza__>	some here wrote that "people that follow hypes" (my interpretation of the term they used) are moving to rust, and that would not be bad for the haskell community
05:42:42	<danza__>	*someone
05:47:06	<Inst>	was the line "hipsters decamped to rust"?
05:48:44	<danza__>	that was it
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05:49:45	<danza__>	admittedly my interpretation of "hipsters" was not accurate, but i wanted to link with the mention about hype occurring before in this conversation
05:50:06	<Inst>	mine
05:51:38	<Axman6>	i feel you've done a good job summing up my comments on lobste.rs
05:51:46	<institor>	damn why do i make such good food
05:51:51	<shapr>	heh, which comments?
05:51:53	<shapr>	ok no I have to go look
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05:52:09	<Axman6>	let me know if you can't find it =)
05:52:13	<institor>	arugula, red cabbage, baby spinach, buttery scrambled eggs, mild cheddar, and a homemade mayo
05:52:16	<institor>	oh and hot sauce
05:52:18	<institor>	mmm
05:52:19	<shapr>	Axman6: I found 'em
05:52:32	<Axman6>	people winging Haskell is too hard so we shold all use Go or some nonsense
05:52:38	<shapr>	ha
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05:54:08	<Inst>	re: sclv: the bigger problem with what you're proposing, and I admit I haven't really thought about it, is what level of labor and talent is available
05:54:25	<Inst>	i.e, if you're just looking for a patch-up job, I don't think that would change that much
05:54:41	<Inst>	but on the other hand, that requires less labor
05:55:23	<Inst>	ideally, you'd also have work on expanding the ecosystem, i.e, providing new libraries, working on extending the capability of the Haskell ecosystem
05:55:30	<Inst>	but that'd require more labor and talent
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06:02:21	<danza__>	it's a short blanket as far as i understand it
06:02:59	<danza__>	there is just not enough capacity for haskell to meet the performance expected when comparing with other (larger) communities
06:03:41	<danza__>	"prioritising writing your first code is a fundamentally flawed idea for a business that expects to be developing for a long time" i think you nail it here Axman6
06:04:10	<danza__>	mainstream dev business does not expect to be developing for a long time
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06:46:17	<Inst>	danza: was your comment in reference to me, the short-blanket one?
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06:52:57	<danza__>	it was in reference to the lines before, yes
06:55:34	<Inst>	danza: that's sort of a disaster, isn't it? It smells like a death spiral
06:56:09	<Inst>	not enough developerpower to keep the ecosystem running, and not enough developerpower to develop new libraries, and developers start leaving for ecosystem weakness
06:56:23	<Inst>	it might be useful to start by trying to do a census of how much developer power can actually be harnessed
06:56:36	<[exa]>	none.
06:58:34	<[exa]>	the whole idea of "harnessing the developer power" sounds completely wrong to me, we have foss contributors who are typically happy (yet overworked for a good reason); not sure if corporate-style disastermongering and "trying to save the thing" will help them a lot
06:58:43	<hackager>	<sm> Nice link, thanks
06:59:46	<[exa]>	(whoops the "overworked for a good reason" above didn't translate from my native language very well, I meant "knowing to do it for a good thing" not "good they're overworked" :D )
07:00:22	<danza__>	Inst, not sure where your irony is heading to
07:02:34	<Inst>	iit doesn't have to be disastermongering, the idea is more that there might be incipient Haskellers, or Haskellers who've never tried working on FOSS projects before, who could lend a hand
07:02:53	<Inst>	but of course, mythical man month, might not help
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07:04:49	<Inst>	I also think that, well, tooling, that's been a known issue but it's been improved a lot. The book issue; folks like Rebecca Skinner and others stepped up to the problem, and there's a lot of Haskell books floating around these days
07:05:13	<Inst>	so i mean, if the issue were made urgent, or at least made a focus, it sounds like there's labor available
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07:07:39	<[exa]>	Inst: but what issues?
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07:08:26	<danza__>	we were talking about a post about a dev who decided to leave haskell ... it is linked above a couple of hours ago
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07:09:25	<[exa]>	danza__: oh this again... terrible disaster indeed. :]
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07:10:25	<Inst>	tbh, it was more comments on the reddit thread, rather, like, a bunch of people pointing out issues with the ecosystem
07:11:53	<Inst>	https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15zvi61/comment/jxjybrh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
07:12:40	<danza__>	even far fetched criticism is an opportunity to improve the community. It seems to me though that we risk pushing a community to meet someone's agenda. See the comment above about mainstream dev business not being interested in long-term development
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07:14:53	<Inst>	i'd disagree with Axman6's point, i.e, there are dialects of Haskell that can serve different needs
07:15:19	<Inst>	see sclv reporting Gabriella Gonzalez being able to do 2 weeks to production code, the HN claim, various fast on-boarding for Haskell, etc
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07:18:32	<danza__>	yeah, and in a well structured haskell codebase, newcomers can work on pure functions for a long time before having to tackle harder constraints. But i think he made a great point instead, this is still not enough for the industry. At which point we ought to ask whether we should follow the industry in its criteria
07:19:15	<[exa]>	(actually I recall seeing a much worse criticism piece on the young internets of 2000s, it was against the idea of sleeping on beds, humans weren't made for that etc. No solution offered. Was kinda illustrative for me.)
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07:21:19	<[exa]>	danza__: the problem with industry is that the ultimate goal of all industry is "invest as close as possible to 0 money to get all problems solved". Nothing will ever be good enough for the industry.
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07:22:13	<danza__>	a bit simplistic :]
07:22:30	<Inst>	danza__: there's actually two ways to do this, one is to dumb down the language, which is absolutely do not support, the other is to improve learning materials, which is what we've seen happen over the past 4-5 years
07:22:45	<[exa]>	danza__: unfortunately it's rather precise :D
07:23:42	<[exa]>	Inst: you might be soon hitting the problem that learning is an investment
07:24:03	<danza__>	Inst, two ways to do what?
07:24:32	<danza__>	to improve the community or to meet the industry's agenda?
07:26:33	<danza__>	which requires high-quality free software, evolving fast, adapting to proprietary technologies, and then gives back a laughable amount of the value it makes from it
07:26:59	<danza__>	or should i say "it takes" actually
07:28:44	<danza__>	and when i write high-quality, i refer to the industry's needs, which involve short-sighted development, as Axman wrote
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07:31:38	<Inst>	the industry's agenda in something that is quick to learn
07:32:21	<danza__>	as i wrote, short-sighted development. And as [exa] wrote, learning is an investment
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07:34:54	<danza__>	so yeah, we can deduce that the industry wants to invest little in its devs. What a surprise. Should we help with that?
07:36:32	<Inst>	I don't think that's true; rather, they have time discounting and expect a certain amount of return on investment.
07:37:10	<Inst>	they can have very high time discounting, of course, but what this boils down to is that you're right insofar as there's no point
07:37:48	<Inst>	in supporting industry in an implicitly exploitative labor model, but if what they want is to get better quality developers for less investment, i.e, efficiency of investment, I don't see the problem in working together on that
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07:39:16	<danza__>	yeah let us work together than. The industry pays us and we make haskell better for them. Ops ... is that not what you do by paying an experienced dev? There ought to be something i have missed
07:40:54	<danza__>	oh yes ... right. You need to pay an experienced dev, and also publish their work as free software. Strange that does not happens more considering the needs for cheap better-quality devs
07:43:26	<danza__>	anyway this topic made me too caustic. Sorry about that Inst
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07:47:16	<Inst>	no problem, i've been subject to more abuse, and i dn't think you were caustic
07:48:07	<danza__>	err but then i was abusive? O_O
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07:49:18	<Inst>	not at all :)
07:49:25	<danza__>	phew ...
07:49:35	<Inst>	sorry, inferred such, half dead mentally right now and i should stay off the internets right now
07:49:57	danza__	waves
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10:26:19	<albet70>	megaparsec or happy, which one is more easier to learn or use?
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11:09:35	<fendor>	never learned happy, so I will say megaparsec :)
11:12:10	<institor>	why megaparsec and not attoparsec
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11:15:01	<yushyin>	there is also flatparse
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11:18:34	<fendor>	megaparsec comes with a handy comparison
11:18:36	<fendor>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-9.4.1#comparison-with-other-solutions
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12:03:29	<hackager>	<sm> megaparsec is best documented and most used
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12:16:13	<Hecate>	< Inst> it's sort of a scam on my end, I got Hecate to agree to offer some support for GUI-packages on Cabal // I don't recall having offered such a thing?
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12:27:11	<stefan-__>	did some xml benchmarking lately: https://github.com/dozed/basic-xml-benchmark-hs
12:27:25	<stefan-__>	are those results consistent with what you would expect?
12:30:27	<stefan-__>	I was a bit surprised that hxt performs so bad
12:32:46	<hackager>	<sm> I suspect XML had faded by the time Haskell was popular so isn't super well supported
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12:32:59	<Inst>	Hecate ;_;
12:33:35	<hackager>	<sm> is parsing such a small piece of data useful for benchmarking ?
12:33:45	<Inst>	oh, you never did
12:33:46	<Inst>	;_;
12:33:56	<Inst>	i checked the log, but at least the project is finally coming along well
12:34:15	<Inst>	i have some very aggressive and ambitious ideas for UI, though, not sure if it might be simpler to go with Bradrn and Absta's idea which is more conventional
12:34:25	<Inst>	each cabal stanza is represented as a floating window
12:34:31	<Inst>	which can be dragged and dropped
12:35:01	<stefan-__>	hackager, the readme shows only an example of the real data (data/neurips2022.xml)
12:36:04	<Hecate>	stefan-__: hackager is the bot, you probably want to talk to sm
12:36:20	<Hecate>	Inst: yeah, as sclv said, I'm overworked :)
12:37:04	<Inst>	well, at least can i get comments on what features from CLI cabal to support?
12:37:45	<Inst>	ughhh, maybe I can beg sclv for support on using cabal's own parser to read the cabal file?
12:38:20	<Inst>	Anyways, thanks for all your hard work on cabal! :)
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12:39:52	<stefan-__>	ah lol ;)
12:40:34	<stefan-__>	where is hackager bridging to?
12:42:04	<Inst>	matrix
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12:43:08	<stefan-__>	k
12:46:10	<hackager>	<sm> I'm hoping geekosaur will rename it
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12:50:49	<yushyin>	oh no, a bot-based bridge, the worst of all :P
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13:03:43	<geekosaur>	I can rename it but it means dropping and reregistering on both sides and it was enough of a pain the first time 😕
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13:13:04	<hackager>	<sm> if/when you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible
13:13:39	<hackager>	<sm> if you get time.. I think it's worth reducing confusion any way possible
13:15:21	<ncf>	is that the matrix bridge
13:15:34	<ncf>	can we make it ignore edits
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13:50:34	<geekosaur>	yes, I think it can ignore edits
13:52:25	<geekosaur>	sm, if the name's so important to you, pick one that isn't taken. I don't care, I do care that I'm only renaming it once
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13:56:18	<hackager>	<sm> is bridgebot taken ?
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14:03:21	<juri_>	can we just.. not have a matrix bridge? ;)
14:06:12	<geekosaur>	I assume that's the first thing all of the 10000+ channels that want bridging try
14:06:17	<geekosaur>	names are not per channe;
14:06:37	<geekosaur>	juri_, could yoiu have complained back when this was raised?
14:06:47	<hackager>	<sm> I wouldn't assume that, obscurely named bots are the norm IME :)
14:06:58	<geekosaur>	even if I take down the matterbridge the plumbned room will return when EMS does
14:10:15	<geekosaur>	in any case "bridgebot" was taken within a week of libera opening
14:10:31	<geekosaur>	(/msg nickserv info bridgebot)
14:11:52	<juri_>	geekosaur: that would require more than idling. :)
14:12:10	<geekosaur>	this bikeshed will not be repainted
14:12:19	<geekosaur>	you aren't paying me enough
14:12:32	<juri_>	great. can we rename the bot purplebot, then?
14:12:38	<juri_>	i like my bikesheds purple.
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14:27:07	<sm>	bikesheds usually sit outside at the bottom of the garden. This is like installing a PA system in the salon that shouts its name before every speaker. I'll say no more :)
14:27:11	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test1
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14:27:29	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test2
14:27:32	<geekosaur>	ugh
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14:28:09	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test3
14:28:12	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test4
14:28:23	<geekosaur>	EditDisable doesn't seem to work
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14:29:08	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test5
14:29:13	<hackager>	<geekosaur> test6
14:29:29	<geekosaur>	😞 it accepts editdisable but ignores it
14:30:05	<Axman6>	wow, not just annoying, but also breaking my terminal
14:30:11	<Axman6>	just*
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14:30:51	<Axman6>	annoying* (I don't even know if I made typos or if my terminal is showing me the wrong thing >____<)
14:31:25	<geekosaur>	showing you the wrong thing but if so that's more likely to be the unicode I used in the message I actually sent here
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14:31:51	<EvanR>	deeply saddened emoji
14:32:48	<Axman6>	yeah, the emojis above are breaking things is very fun ways - at least I know the issue isn't the macOS terminal like glguy and I were hypothosising recently
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14:33:20	<geekosaur>	do you use tmux? run it with -u
14:33:51	<Axman6>	I do, and I believe I am (but will confirm shortly)
14:34:32	<geekosaur>	it may also depend on your font but last I checked pretty much all Mac fonts had full emoji support
14:34:54	<geekosaur>	granting that was 2017 but I doubt they dropped it
14:35:32	<Axman6>	yeah I can see the emoji above, but once they appear I get weird... smearing is the best I can describe it, somcharacters from one line will remine on that line when the screen scrolls
14:35:49	<Axman6>	(I'm using Blink on iPadOS at the moment)
14:36:03	<Axman6>	ok, brb, making sure I'm using tmux with -u
14:36:07	<geekosaur>	that's generally not accounting for width, most emojis are doublewidth
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14:38:02	Axman6	has returned and is bracing for emojii
14:38:57	<EvanR>	👍 Thumbs Up Emoji 🧑 People 🐻 Animals & Nature 🍔 Food & Drink ⚽ Activity 🚀 Travel & Places 💡 Objects 💕 Symbols 🎌 Flags
14:40:27	<Axman6>	Well I can already tell hat's borked everything =)
14:41:25	<albet70>	Axman6 , blink is expensive
14:41:41	<Axman6>	https://ibb.co/YySWn2g
14:42:02	<Axman6>	Also also quite nice and includes a lot of useful tools
14:42:33	<Axman6>	It's also* maybe it's too late for me to be typing anthying
14:43:12	<EvanR>	oof
14:43:46	<geekosaur>	yeh, it sounds like your terminal doesn't use wcwidth or equivalent to determine that emojis fit in 2 character cells instead of one
14:43:51	<EvanR>	looks like they tried to be clever clearing only letters that needed to be cleared, until something happened to throw off the aligment
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14:44:33	<geekosaur>	and yes that's common (I don't know why, it costs more to move over <4 characters than to just re-emit them)
14:44:47	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: https://rezmason.github.io/matrix/
14:45:11	<Axman6>	It might not be my terminal, since the same thing happens on blink and Terminal.app; it's possible one of the libraries glirc links to is missing some config for handling wide chars
14:45:30	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: do emoji work in tmux directly
14:46:03	<geekosaur>	whose curses library are you using, the one that came with os x or a modern ncurses from e.g. brew?
14:46:06	<Axman6>	good question... I'm not sure how to test that easily
14:46:17	<geekosaur>	I would use the latter, apple libs tend to be ancient
14:46:38	<Axman6>	geekosaur: glirc is running on freebsd (with tmux and mosh thrown into the mix)
14:46:50	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83\n"
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14:47:19	<tomsmeding>	should be a https://tomsmeding.com/unicode#%f0%9f%98%83
14:47:25	<geekosaur>	freebsd will have the same issue but you want ncurses from ports instead of curses from base
14:47:50	<geekosaur>	(and this si something of a well-known gotcha on fbsd)
14:48:06	<tomsmeding>	if bsd has ldd, then ldd $(glirc)
14:48:35	<albet70>	try irssi or erc on emacs?
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14:50:18	<Axman6>	yeah it looks like they work fine elsehwere like nano and that prinf (though the issues I get are when glirc scrolls itself, so not sure how to replicate that sort of interaction)
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14:51:04	<geekosaur>	right, this is almost certainly your (n)curses lib
14:51:14	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: when you do printf "\xf0\x9f\x98\x83hi\n" , does the h end up after the smile or overlapping the smile
14:51:32	<Axman6>	yeah - I should check ifyou can set options for the ncurses install
14:52:00	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: try ldd $(which glirc)
14:52:18	<tomsmeding>	shuold show which ncurses library it's using
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14:53:43	<Axman6>	withthe smile then hi, that works fine
14:53:58	<EvanR>	ncurses is named after standard procedure for when it doesn't work
14:54:21	<tomsmeding>	Axman6: yeah that sounds like geekosaur is right
14:54:36	<Axman6>	libncursesw.so.9 => /lib/libncursesw.so.9
14:54:53	<tomsmeding>	that w would normally be promising
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14:55:50	<Axman6>	indeed
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14:59:01	<geekosaur[c]>	Not really because ports libs don't install there iirc
14:59:41	<tomsmeding>	why is a non-wide-char-ready ncurses calaled ncursesw
14:59:46	<tomsmeding>	*called
15:00:46	<Axman6>	apparently it's been built with wide character support sincd 2013 on freebsd
15:01:17	<geekosaur[c]>	I'd install ncurses from ports, read the post install notes to make sure it will be used instead of base, and reinstall glirc including dependencies
15:02:10	<geekosaur[c]>	Modern ncurses always does wide characters, ncursesw no longer exists
15:02:36	tomsmeding	on arch has weechat linking to libncursesw.so.6
15:02:43	<tomsmeding>	and emoji work
15:02:52	<tomsmeding>	not bsd, though
15:03:09	<geekosaur[c]>	And the problem with older wide characters support is it wasn't necessarily Unicode
15:04:55	<geekosaur[c]>	tomsmeding: check that it's not a symlink
15:05:33	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur[c]: /usr/lib/libncursesw.so.6 -> libncursesw.so.6.4, and the latter is not a symlink
15:05:35	<geekosaur[c]>	.6 is when they drop non-wide support
15:05:36	<tomsmeding>	so yes, but no :p
15:06:20	<tomsmeding>	to be sure, I have a .so.5, a w.so.5 and a w.so.6
15:06:26	<geekosaur[c]>	What file size?
15:06:29	<tomsmeding>	it's the non-w that doesn't exist
15:06:35	<tomsmeding>	geekosaur[c]: 476K
15:06:48	<geekosaur[c]>	Odd
15:06:58	<tomsmeding>	arch weirdness potentially
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15:11:47	<geekosaur>	oh, so they went the other way instead (re non-w not existing)
15:12:02	<geekosaur>	arch gotta be different..
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15:26:54	<geekosaur>	wat
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15:31:34	<geekosaur>	missed one
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15:31:41	<geekosaur>	right, there we go
15:32:02	<geekosaur>	still called hackager on matrix, will have to see if I can switch nicks there or have to make a new account
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15:36:30	<geekosaur>	new account needed 😞
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15:50:47	<EvanR>	hackager and geekosaur unified
15:51:10	<institor>	what's so good about matrix
15:51:20	<institor>	it just seems overcomplicated
15:51:29	<institor>	you can fucking telnet into IRC
15:51:37	<institor>	and hand type the protocol
15:52:09	<EvanR>	i doubt you can telnet into this IRC
15:52:32	<EvanR>	IRC has gotten pretty complicated
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15:55:19	<hpc>	has irc changed at all since the mid-2000s?
15:56:46	<EvanR>	feature creep!
15:56:59	<EvanR>	security measures
15:57:00	<c_wraith>	in expectation, at least. People expect SASL auth and TLS now.
15:57:14	<c_wraith>	those existed in the mid-2000s, but you could ignore them
15:58:22	<hpc>	eh, s_client instead of telnet then :P
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16:05:04	<geekosaur>	these days ircv3 is rather more difficult
16:05:21	<geekosaur>	not sure if you can pretend libera is an old irc server any more
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16:17:56	<monochrom>	In priciple, you can telnet into matrix or http for that matter, too.
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16:19:05	<monochrom>	For https and TLS and if matrix is on top of TLS too, just add stunnel :)
16:19:53	<geekosaur>	pantalaimon 😛
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16:48:37	<albet70>	can haskell support union type?
16:51:14	<int-e>	% :i GHC.Exts.Any
16:51:14	<yahb2>	type GHC.Types.Any :: forall k. k ; type family GHC.Types.Any where ; -- Defined in ‘GHC.Types’
16:51:39	<EvanR>	the Exception system uses something like that, based on Dynamic
16:52:05	<EvanR>	not exactly pretty
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16:52:15	<int-e>	@quote unsafeCoerce
16:52:15	<lambdabot>	edwardk says: this breaks my previous record of 6 unsafeCoerce's in a line
16:53:18	<EvanR>	I'm mildly amused from recent days research into the status of unions in C for the purposes of doing hilarious reinterpret casts
16:53:32	<EvanR>	it's very bad don't do it, and everyone recommends it enthusiastically
16:53:50	<geekosaur>	ADTs can be tagged unions; the full generality of C unions it can't because it's type-unsafe by definition
16:54:03	<int-e>	EvanR: Where did you think the 'C' in 'core dump' comes from?
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16:58:08	<dolio>	You can make sound versions of C-alike unions. But of course they don't allow various things that people do with C unions.
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16:59:31	<int-e>	`Any` was a fairly serious answer, actually; it's pretty much the ultimate untagged union, unless you want to include unboxed types in which case... well the garbage collecter will get very weird ideas and eventually your program will crash...
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17:00:48	<monochrom>	For simplicity, interpret "union" to mean the Haskell kind of union. Then, trivially yes, Haskell supports union types like "data X = X1 Int \| X2 Bool \| X3 X".
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17:01:05	<int-e>	bo-ring
17:01:24	<EvanR>	oh nice, that seems pretty cool
17:01:29	<EvanR>	unions are great
17:01:32	<monochrom>	That is the most sensible interpretation because if you say "union" in #haskell what else are you supposed to expect?
17:02:14	<monochrom>	You go to ##c and say "function" you don't expect them to know you mean Haskell functions.
17:02:34	<EvanR>	trendy languages like elixir right now are trying very hard to come up with set theory based type systems, in which case union makes sense technically
17:02:54	<monochrom>	Yikes. That's an uphill battle.
17:03:08	<EvanR>	yes it's pretty complicated actually
17:03:30	<monochrom>	Tons of research languages tried and it's still rough. And to think research languages already have the best chance of doing it properly.
17:03:33	<dolio>	So, they're making type systems based on the most untyped mathematical system?
17:03:56	<monochrom>	And yeah, there's that, the fundamental impedence mismatch.
17:04:14	<int-e>	{{}} + {{},{{}}} = {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}
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17:04:52	<EvanR>	https://elixir-lang.org/blog/2023/06/22/type-system-updates-research-dev/
17:05:27	<dolio>	I suppose it makes sense if you're trying to graft a type system on top of an untyped system. Use the mathematical system that sort of does the same thing.
17:05:46	<EvanR>	"I just think in sets"
17:05:55	<monochrom>	Hey set theory is grafting a type system on top of an untyped system. amirite? :)
17:06:22	<monochrom>	Oh heh you're already saying that.
17:06:22	<int-e>	no?
17:06:48	<int-e>	(not if you do "proper" everything-is-a-set set theory)
17:07:08	<int-e>	(the types? they're an illusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions)
17:07:33	<monochrom>	They should not be afraid to say "we are not doing a type system, we are doing a set system".
17:07:50	<int-e>	set in stone
17:07:59	<albet70>	https://yinwang0.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/pure-fp-and-monads/
17:08:15	<EvanR>	the first few versions of set theory were strongly typed, russell actually invented type theory in the process
17:08:15	<monochrom>	"llusion that is held up through careful notation and less careful conventions" sounds like TeX and LaTeX :)
17:08:24	<EvanR>	so there
17:08:38	<int-e>	monochrom: aka typesetting without types
17:08:44	<monochrom>	hahaha
17:09:04	<geekosaur>	hey now, TeX makes no pretense of being typed
17:09:17	<geekosaur>	unless you count "stringly typed"
17:09:37	<monochrom>	Yeah to be fair it's LaTeX that gives an illusion of abstraction, reuse, and packages.
17:09:41	<int-e>	strings tie everything together on a shoestring budget
17:09:59	<int-e>	monochrom: And it actually does an amazing job.
17:10:28	<int-e>	sure, the abstractions are all leaky and you have artefacts like fragile commands
17:10:43	<int-e>	but it's much better than it has any right to be
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17:12:52	<int-e>	albet70: I got to the second paragraph and I feel a strong bias already
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17:14:17	<dolio>	Hahaha, yeah.
17:15:26	<monochrom>	Have the author not heard of imperative programming?
17:15:55	<monochrom>	One doesn't need OO if one just wants to streamline side effects.
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17:16:45	<monochrom>	Unpopular opinion: OO and millenial entitlement are correlated >:)
17:17:29	<int-e>	I do agree that monads are a class of design patterns. And that some (mostly low level) things shouldn't necessarily be implemented in Haskell... Other than that... none of this damns Haskell as a programming language.
17:17:38	<EvanR>	so you want to do imperative programming in haskell let me first introduce you to some category theory
17:17:45	<int-e>	monochrom: the timing seems a bit off, no?
17:17:58	<hpc>	monochrom: there's an inheritance tax joke in there somewhere
17:18:11	<monochrom>	Hey I am entitled to a little bit of bias of mine, too :)
17:18:28	<int-e>	monochrom: sure
17:18:52	<int-e>	club of opinionated bstrds
17:19:13	int-e	shows his member card
17:19:30	<monochrom>	But this is why I don't care about blogs and bloggers.
17:20:07	<monochrom>	Blogging merely amplifies the human nature that first you form an opinion then you rationalize it.
17:21:06	<monochrom>	"I like OOP more than I like FP, now let's invent some strawman arguments to make me sound reasonable"
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17:21:40	<albet70>	the author is very good at scheme
17:22:46	<EvanR>	what level of scheme are you on my dude
17:22:51	<monochrom>	That does not matter. I am known to have made even harsher criticisms on even bigger shots such as Alan Kay.
17:24:03	<monochrom>	One can even say that Alan Kay is very good at programming altogether, and I am still going to call him out on what I think he got wrong.
17:24:52	<monochrom>	Some of you have heard me saying "did you know that lunacy is measured in minikay?"
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17:25:23	<int-e>	hmm... 'kay
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17:25:37	<monochrom>	I was avenging Dijkstra :)
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17:30:25	<EvanR>	nanodijkstras, kibibytes, minikays, checks out
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17:31:40	<monochrom>	Oops, it should be millikays or nanokays.
17:31:56	<monochrom>	millidijkstras and millikays and milliolegs
17:32:08	<EvanR>	or mibi
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17:32:35	<EvanR>	millibi
17:32:42	<EvanR>	1/1024
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21:20:12	<wroathe>	I can't seem to remember how to do this... Say I want a "nullary" function with a phantom type argument where I can do something like foo @'"test" and then have that function get the symbolVal of that type argument as the return value... what would be the syntax for doing that?
21:20:51	<wroathe>	phantom Symbol argument, I should say
21:21:12	<wroathe>	foo @'"foo" = "foo"
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21:26:56	<EvanR>	Proxy ?
21:27:39	<wroathe>	Well, yeah, I'd have to use Proxy in the definition, but I'm just not remembering how the type of a function like this should look
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21:27:58	<mauke>	foo :: forall s. (KnownSymbol s) => String
21:28:13	<wroathe>	mauke: Thanks
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21:39:52	<wroathe>	lol, ScopedTypeVariables. That was the bit I was forgetting
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21:47:13	<wroathe>	Hmm, is there a way to do this without turning on AllowAmbiguousTypes? https://gist.github.com/JustinChristensen/f100f54b4f08354a66a38aeb8e14cc77
21:49:20	<ski>	i guess `forall s. KnownSymbol s => Const s String' or somesuch
21:50:26	<geekosaur>	isn't that pretty much the exact circumstance for which AllowAmbiguousTypes is intended?
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21:51:28	<wroathe>	Hmm, if it is I'll use it. It just seemed like a sledgehammer for what I think is a pretty common pattern
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21:51:47	<wroathe>	The context here is that I'm going to try to write a routine to generate postgresql CREATE TABLE statements from types that derive Generic
21:52:24	<geekosaur>	it really wants something like `forall a ->` which is still pending
21:53:45	<wroathe>	ski: Expected a type, but ‘s’ has kind ‘ghc-prim-0.8.0:GHC.Types.Symbol’ • In the first argument of ‘Const’, namely ‘s’
21:54:29	<ski>	er, sorry. should be `Const String s', not `Const s String'
21:54:55	<wroathe>	:k Const
21:54:56	<lambdabot>	* -> k -> *
21:55:01	<wroathe>	yup, thanks
21:55:37	<ski>	@kind Data.Tagged.Tagged
21:55:38	<lambdabot>	k -> * -> *
21:56:37	<wroathe>	Tagged might be more appropriate here?
21:56:41	<wroathe>	Given the use case?
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21:57:12	<ski>	well .. i think geekosaur's sentiment applies
21:57:31	<ski>	(.. but you did ask for a way without `AllowAmbiguousTypes')
21:58:12	<wroathe>	Much to read about. Thanks for the tips.
22:00:09	<monochrom>	If you use Proxy, you shouldn't run into ambiguous types. If you use TypeApplication without Proxy, do expect ambiguous types.
22:01:22	<monochrom>	The underlying principle being: "(MyConstraint t) => ... t does not appear here ..." iff ambiguous type.
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22:01:48	<wroathe>	Well the definition itself is complaining baout the type being ambiguous... how would type applications help that?
22:01:52	ski	mumbles something about FDs
22:01:53	<monochrom>	err maybe that's wrong, nevermind.
22:01:58	<wroathe>	I am using Proxy in the definition there if you look at the gist
22:03:01	<ski>	well, "If you use Proxy" : `foo :: forall s. KnownSymbol s => Proxy s -> String; foo = symbolVal'
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22:03:39	<wroathe>	Yeah... I see. Yeah, what I'm trying to avoid is having to pass a term level proxy value to the function
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22:03:59	<wroathe>	The syntax for my SQL generator I'm looking for is something like createCompaniesTable = sqlCreateTable @Company
22:04:10	<wroathe>	Where Company is a data type deriving Generic
22:04:33	<wroathe>	createCompaniesTable :: String there
22:04:34	<ski>	i guess `Reader (Proxy s) String' is anothr option
22:04:40	<ski>	(not suggesting that)
22:05:32	<geekosaur[c]>	The core problem is that ghc doesn't know and can't enforce that foo will always be called with a TypeApplication.
22:05:51	<geekosaur[c]>	So foo itself is ambiguous
22:05:53	<wroathe>	Right, yeah, that's what I was wondering about with monochrom's point
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22:06:37	<wroathe>	I think Tagged basically gets me what I want here thought
22:06:52	<wroathe>	It seems right and proper that this generated string of SQL also be "tagged" with the data type that generated it
22:06:56	<geekosaur[c]>	With forall a ->, you would make it explicit that the Symbol is required
22:07:06	<wroathe>	is forall a -> a proposal on the horizon?
22:07:10	<wroathe>	And do you have a link?
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22:07:52	<monochrom>	oooohhhhh dependent-style polymorphism :)
22:07:52	<geekosaur[c]>	It's a proposal, I am on my phone and don't have a link handy
22:08:10	<wroathe>	Ah, what's the name of it? I can google
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22:08:40	<monochrom>	"agda" (j/k)
22:08:41	<geekosaur[c]>	Last I heard there were some issues with mapping the surface syntax to Core
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22:10:55	<wroathe>	ski: I think I prefer Tagged here. Thanks for the hot tip
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22:11:34	<monochrom>	I am a bit pessimistic that "forall a ->" may be a slippery slope that defeats the intention. Because what happened next in existing dependently-typed languages is that people then added one more syntax for "turn it back into implicit at use sites".
22:12:09	<geekosaur[c]>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23740 is one
22:12:25	<wroathe>	ty ty
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22:15:05	<geekosaur[c]>	It's definitely on the dependent Haskell path
22:16:05	<geekosaur[c]>	And the intent is that the use site will have foo "a"
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22:16:31	<geekosaur[c]>	(not @"a")
22:17:43	<ski>	(reminds me to wonder whether `foo @a ..a.. = ..a..'s in the works)
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