Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-08-28 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:05 <c_wraith> Just write a default instance.
00:00:27 <c_wraith> and all the types you want can opt in without doing anything other than saying they're opting in.
00:00:33 <aaronv> you can use deriving via to derive the boilerplate instances
00:00:51 <c_wraith> .... there are no boilerplate instance. why is everyone making this complicated?
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00:01:48 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> By default instance, do you mean writing default implementations for the functions in the type class?
00:02:29 <c_wraith> yes. Use https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/default_signatures.html to put the constraint on the definition
00:02:31 <aaronv> probably means default signatures. but you can only have one default signature and may have multiple ways to derive a superclass
00:02:35 <EvanR> ok yeah, write the default implementation in the type class. Then every type you want to be an instance put instance MyOtherClass Bar
00:02:56 <c_wraith> aaronv: did you read the initial question? This is the correct solution to that.
00:02:56 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I see... but what if they are not "the same" after all?
00:03:00 <EvanR> lol
00:03:08 <int-e> Whenever I hear this question... I wonder... are you trying to do OO in Haskell?
00:03:08 <c_wraith> then you write a correct instance
00:03:09 <aaronv> until you have another subclass
00:03:34 <int-e> (It can be done and it's usually not a great approach to anything.)
00:03:39 <aaronv> this is the general default superclass problem which has existed forever and for which there are a bunch of proposed extensions none of which have ever gone anywhere
00:04:14 <c_wraith> I mean, it's not a problem because attempting to do it magically is the problem. Being explicit is the solution.
00:04:33 <EvanR> Jeanne-Kamikaze, so what is it, if not actually the same
00:04:37 <aaronv> the real problem is the inability to abstract over construction of type class instances
00:04:38 <int-e> Though the AMP mess was a counterexample to that OO idea.
00:05:07 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Trying to think of a minimal example.
00:05:16 <int-e> (After AMP, everything that was a single Monad instance suddenly had to be a Functor, an Applicative, and a Monad instance.)
00:05:45 <int-e> (All without any OO in sight.)
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00:06:02 <aaronv> what is OO
00:06:11 <int-e> object-oriented programming
00:06:13 <aaronv> what is that
00:06:15 <c_wraith> int-e: all the types that were monads without also being instances of Applicative were terrible. I'm glad they were forced to be sane.
00:06:19 <EvanR> lol
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00:06:25 <int-e> aaronv: I won't answer that
00:06:29 <aaronv> there is no answer
00:06:43 <EvanR> OO haskell is where you try to emulate classes, subclasses, and reimplementing the superclass functionality selectively
00:06:56 <EvanR> where classes are as in java
00:07:14 <aaronv> I thought OO haskell was the lens library
00:07:25 <EvanR> that's optics oriented programming
00:07:26 <aaronv> with all it's subtyping
00:07:30 <int-e> c_wraith: It wasn't exactly a complaint. But I did write code before Applicative was a thing.
00:07:32 <aaronv> *its
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00:08:19 <int-e> c_wraith: And adapting that was tedious.
00:08:20 <EvanR> the lens stuff is an example of "OO" subtyping actually working right, unlike most of the time java
00:09:00 <aaronv> well, except the quantified types aren't first class, which can be annoying
00:09:15 <EvanR> first class types?
00:09:47 <EvanR> idris I can hear you in the trunk of that car screaming to get out
00:10:56 <geekosaur> `forall a ->` is banging on the door
00:10:56 <aaronv> maybe I should say they aren't even second class
00:11:23 <aaronv> `forall a ->` would give up the subtyping
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00:18:24 <Inst> erm, question
00:18:40 <Axman6> No, statement
00:18:51 <Inst> more like a clause, or a sentence fragment?
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00:19:03 <Inst> shoudn't tail calls be optimized to mutating code?
00:19:09 <Inst> copy, mutate, return
00:19:18 <Inst> *tail recursive calls
00:20:33 <Inst> i assumed they were, someone corrected me that they weren't
00:21:08 <Inst> i suppose state chains aren't, though, because they're not linear (yet), #1, #2, linear haskell makes no claim of enabling mutation
00:21:22 <geekosaur> everything is a tail call by the time you reach STG, so things are much more complicated than that
00:22:42 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> > EvanR> OO haskell is where you try to emulate classes, subclasses, and reimplementing the superclass functionality selectively; Yeah, I think that is what I was trying to do in a nutshell.
00:22:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:22: error: parse error on input ‘where’
00:23:14 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I need to go back to the drawing board. Part of the problem is figuring out what I really want :/
00:23:34 <EvanR> Jeanne-Kamikaze, probably an unpleastant road to go down but you can read some papers on past attempts
00:24:25 <EvanR> instead of OO being a solution looking for a problem here, you should flesh out the problem
00:24:42 <Inst> the foolish person learns from their own mistakes, the wise person learns from others' mistakes. But the foolish person has more fun!
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00:27:13 <Inst> geekosaur: it came up because someone wanted mutation, I thought TCO was already mutation in the sense that it evaluated to a jump with constant registers
00:27:43 <Inst> they left happily with unsafeFreeze, unsafeThaw, a warning, and a grin on their face from the likely inevitable explosion
00:28:22 <EvanR> TCO isn't mutation at all
00:28:49 <EvanR> it's lack of mutation (of the call stack, in some other setting which has a call stack)
00:29:04 <Inst> ah :(
00:29:21 <EvanR> which is why it's so cool, "zero cost call"
00:30:09 <Inst> so what happens to the function arguments?
00:30:20 <Inst> do they get shifted around, replaced with new pointers?
00:30:21 <EvanR> passed to the function being called
00:30:40 <EvanR> so I lied there
00:31:03 <Inst> strictly, but the new function call creates new memory addresses / uses new registers? :(
00:31:04 <EvanR> when you have no arguments, it's just a jump
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00:31:56 <EvanR> haskell programs use registers too but I don't see the connection
00:32:04 <dolio> It's definitely true that some common uses of mutation can be replaced by tail recursion.
00:32:42 <dolio> That's because the only way to do tail recursion in many languages (without unnecessarily eating stack) is with loops and mutation.
00:33:04 <Inst> i actually like mutation and state, i just want it to be the compiler's problem, not mine, whenever possible
00:33:10 <monochrom> Jeanne-Kamikaze: In the standard library, "if T is a Num instance, then it is also a Monoid instance using addition" is realized by the newtype wrapper "Sum", i.e., instance Num a => instance Monoid (Sum a)
00:33:13 <Axman6> since there's no returning from a tail call, all a call to a haskell function is is putting the arguments in registers (many caveats here) and then jumping to that, and by definition anything that was in registers in the calling code can be overwritten, since it'll never be used.
00:34:10 <Axman6> so at some level here's always mutation going on, and a tail recursive function will repeatedly overwrite its arguments on each recursive call
00:34:12 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> monochrom, yeah, I think that's what I was trying to formulate.
00:34:46 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Like there are different kinds of monoids, but those that are Num behave with mappend = (+)
00:35:13 <Axman6> no, they _can_ behave like thaty, or they can use mappend = (*)
00:35:14 <Inst> i'm not sure this is correct, but there's only one Monoid typeclass, but different types instanced into the typeclass
00:35:15 <Axman6> or const
00:35:18 <monochrom> There are other cases where there is uniqueness but you still need a newtype wrapper to intervene.
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00:35:41 <Inst> kinds is a bit of a dangerous word because it's a term of art in Haskell
00:35:43 <Axman6> or any number of other implementations, which is why we split those common implementations out into the newtypes
00:35:53 <monochrom> Fundamentally this is how Haskell type classes work (and not work). You need a wrapper, lest it's undecidable and overlapping.
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00:36:49 <EvanR> typeclasses vs the world, for any given type there's zero or one instance of something
00:36:59 <EvanR> in typeclasses we trust
00:37:00 <Inst> you know what a newtype is, right?
00:37:20 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Yeah
00:39:47 <Inst> also, no, Num doesn't behave with mappend = (+) because real numbers have both addition and multiplication as monoids, hence the Sum newtype wrapper for (+) vs Product (*)
00:39:52 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Is understanding why the newtype is needed there / comment about undecidable/overlapping something one can read out?
00:40:22 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I just don't really understand how the type inference and stuff generally works.
00:40:36 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> *read about
00:40:47 <Axman6> The problem comes when I write mappend 2.0 3.0, do I want the answer to be 5.0 or 6.0?
00:41:19 <Axman6> there's no way the compiler can know which implementation is expected if you can define mappend = (+) and mappend = (*)
00:41:36 <EvanR> you can write an instance that implements Monoid for all Nums. And that overlaps all the usual Num instances
00:41:37 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Let's say that that Num only has (+) or (*), just one possible definition of monoid. Do you still need to wrap it in a newtype to avoid the overlapping/undecidable situation?
00:41:49 <Inst> you don't
00:41:59 <Axman6> yes
00:42:13 <Inst> instance Num a => Monoid a where; mappend = (+)
00:42:23 <EvanR> that overlaps and so is bad
00:42:23 <Inst> do you have ghci ready?
00:42:24 <Axman6> what if I want mappend 2.0 3.0 == 2.0? a.k.a, the First Monoid (sort of)
00:42:40 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Yeah. I get an error that the thing overlaps when the 'a' is not a Num.
00:42:54 <EvanR> it also overlaps when it is a Num and has a Monoid instance too
00:42:59 <Inst> hmm, that doesn't compile :(
00:43:06 <Axman6> there's an infinite number of monoid instances that we could want, picking one arbitrarily makes all the others more painful to use
00:43:46 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> What does "overlap" here really mean? What's the problem?
00:43:54 <EvanR> a type has two instances of a class
00:43:58 <monochrom> I can only think of the Haskell Report plus Typing Haskell in Haskell.
00:44:08 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> How? You can either be or not be a Num?
00:44:09 <Axman6> Jeanne-Kamikaze: what does mappend 2.0 3.0 return?
00:44:17 <EvanR> you were talking about implementing Monoid
00:45:00 <monochrom> "instance C [a]" and "instance C (f Int)" overlap. Because [Int] matches both.
00:45:24 <monochrom> Clearly, "instance C a" and "instance C Int" also overlap, even more badly.
00:46:05 <monochrom> Oh, "instance ExtraCondition => C a" is not going to help. Instance matching goes backwards and optimistically.
00:46:11 <Inst> why is it complaining about undecidableinstances and the constraint Num a being no smaller than Monoid a? :(
00:46:27 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> monochrom, yeah, that ExtraCondition => C a is what I had.
00:46:35 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> I thought ExtraCondition would keep me honest.
00:46:48 <monochrom> Here is how "instance Ord a => Ord [a]" works, for example.
00:46:51 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> But it don't.
00:47:25 <geekosaur> Inst, the compiler does not reason about meaning, it does not know and can not tell that there are fewer Num instances than Monoid instances
00:47:25 <Inst> just curious, do you know what a mathematical monoid is?
00:47:32 <Axman6> What if we also have: instance (Show a, Read a) => Monoid a where mappend a b = read (show a ++ show b), that also overlaps with basically all types which are instances of Num
00:47:42 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> It's a single object category baby
00:47:44 <geekosaur> It knows only that they have the same shape and one is not defined in terms of the other
00:47:46 <monochrom> [MyType] matches [a] therefore Ord [MyType] is committed. Cut. (No backtracking in the future).
00:48:08 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Yeah, I am roughly familiar with monoids, that's as far as I got into the category theory book.
00:48:14 <monochrom> Then "Ord MyType" is checked. If none found. error. There is no search for alternative solutions.
00:48:32 <monochrom> Apply the same logic to "instance Num a => C a".
00:48:56 <monochrom> Int matches "a", therefore C Mytype is committed. Cut.
00:48:58 <Inst> wait, am I wrong when I say the most accessible concept of monoid is from algebra, not category theory?
00:49:09 <monochrom> Then, if Num Mytype fails, error. THE END.
00:49:43 <monochrom> Conclusion: "instance Num a => C a" does not mean "if Num a, then C a".
00:50:19 <Inst> the way I understand the Haskeller fascination with abstract mathematics is that, in other languages, people want interfaces with contracts
00:50:27 <Inst> mathematics gives you free interfaces with contracts
00:50:44 <Inst> erm, gives you interfaces with free contracts
00:50:46 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> monochrom, that explains it, thank you. I was going backwards in that reasoning.
00:50:50 <monochrom> at least not with causal "if-then".
00:51:28 <monochrom> Haskell's type class system is a very simplified Prolog with implicit cuts almost everywhere.
00:53:06 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Or rather, I was going forwards.
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00:53:44 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> "No backtracking" sounds like the opposite of SFINAE in C++ too.
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00:58:51 <monochrom> The most important deviation from Prolog (which justifies other deviations) is that Prolog has closed-world assumption, Haskell is a separate compilation language so it has open-world assumption.
00:59:54 <monochrom> backtracking and failre=negation require closed world
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01:37:28 <Jeanne-Kamikaze> Alright, welp, thanks for the lesson, I'm calling it a day.
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03:48:54 <segfaultfizzbuzz> hmm, people didn't respond in #haskell-offtopic so i thought i would try asking here, but feel free to tell me this is too offtopic:
03:49:23 <segfaultfizzbuzz> let's say someone writes a planetary motion simulator using newton's laws, and uses a type system for this so for instance, the type system prevents the implementor from adding time to position without multiplying by a velocity, for instance, and all is well with the universe
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03:49:38 <segfaultfizzbuzz> and then einstein comes along and this shit wrong
03:49:49 <segfaultfizzbuzz> is the type system now wrong?
03:50:15 <segfaultfizzbuzz> put another way, when domain knowledge shifts, does the type system always survive, often survive, rarely survive...?
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04:11:53 <EvanR> segfaultfizzbuzz, haskell is known for it's relative ease of refactoring existing code. So if you used newtypes everywhere on numbers to track units and conversions, and later changed your mind on the units, you are refactoring
04:12:16 <EvanR> but I imagine that example is pretty far fetched
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05:59:16 <kenran> I'm trying out the optics library, and my project is using fourmolu to format things (on GHC 9.6). If anyone is doing something similar: can I get fourmolu to not heavily break lines in things like: s & registers % a .~ 0x3 & foo .~ "bar"
06:00:27 <Axman6> what even is going on there XD
06:00:45 <Axman6> oh, my terminal was playing up, looks more sensible now
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06:00:57 <kenran> Ideally I'd like to have the (&) calls on separate lines (maybe even aligned; at work an older fourmolu does that, but using lens), but as soon as I break before the 2nd one or both, I get every operand on a new line
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06:04:52 <Axman6> What's % do in optics?
06:05:42 <kenran> It's their (.)
06:06:16 <kenran> I've tried using (.) instead just to test the formatting, but no difference either
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06:07:14 <kenran> right now I check using the older version of fourmolu from the work project (0.9) and it definitely formats it differently :/
06:07:37 <Axman6> This is one of the (very uninformed) reasons I've stuck with stylish-haskell, it doesn't mess too much with the code itself, and I find I want to retain control of alignment in functions because it helps convey meaning or makes differences between similar looking lines far more obvious
06:09:07 <kenran> Yes exactly! fourmolu is so nice though if it works like you intended, as it's afaik the only formatter to look something like what I'd write without one :) but if it doesn't... oh boy
06:10:21 <Axman6> I feel like any one of these tools needs an insane number of configuration options so you can disable that one thing that annoys you. I really don't like the "opinionated" ones, because they are pretty much guaranteed to have the wrong opinion =)
06:11:01 <kenran> That's why I quickly moved away from ormolu :D
06:11:40 <kenran> I mean, I'd still use it at work, as Haskell seems to "provoke" lots of different, opinionated code styles, but for a personal project
06:12:22 <kenran> I wonder if I should bite the bullet and just not use one in this... stylish-haskell (iirc) does the annoying thing with the imports, i.e., aligning the module names, qualified or not, right?
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06:15:27 <Axman6> it has flags for that.
06:15:57 <Axman6> one of the reasons I like PostQualifiedImports or whatever it's called, makes for much nicer alignment
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06:16:19 <Axman6> and you can just sort th line directly if you want
06:16:37 <kenran> I wanted to try it out just now, but alas the version in nixpkgs doesn't build yet with GHC 9.6
06:16:54 <Axman6> Huh, what issues?
06:17:18 <kenran> constraint problems: ghc-lib-parser < 9.5
06:17:21 <kenran> I'll check github
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06:18:35 <kenran> ah, recent commits have fixed this. I'll try with `main` then
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06:32:47 <kenran> Axman6: ok, it works, and maybe I'll really give it a try, as it doesn't touch most of my code at all. I'll have to align my let/in myself, but I can live with that =)
06:32:59 <kenran> thanks for the suggestion, I'd have dismissed it otherwise!
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07:58:37 <kenran> I think I might have found out what the problem is:
07:59:34 <kenran> (&) is imported as a reexport from Optics, and it seems like (in newer versions) ormolu/fourmolu only get the correct fixity for operators that are not reexports. as soon as I import Data.Function ((&)) or specify the fixity manually, it formats correctly again!
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12:41:14 <Axman6> kenran: huh, interesting! Has a bug been filed? (/Have you filed one yet?)
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15:32:14 <kenran> Axman6: I'll do so tomorrow, but I want to test it some more. I could only find a single somewhat related issue, but that seems to have been a user error.
15:33:03 <kenran> I also don't know how the fourmolu tests work yet, so I'll read those and see if I can reproduce the issue there to have a starting point for a fix
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15:36:49 <kenran> hum, a colleague of mine upgraded our project to GHC 9.4, but now I see ==..== Simplifier statistics ==...== with "Total ticks: xyz" cluttering all the build output. any idea where that's coming from?
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15:39:06 <geekosaur> sounds like `-ddump-simpl-stats` got turned on somehow?
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15:40:56 <geekosaur> what point version?
15:41:19 <geekosaur> 9.4.7 just came out, maybe it has a messaging bug
15:41:25 <kenran> geekosaur: grepping for the option yields no results. 9.4.6
15:43:11 <kenran> ah, one dependency has changed branches, and that uses GHC. this might be it, let me check
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16:03:41 <kenran> nothing there either. this is very strange
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16:17:04 <haskellbridge> <A​rtem> Just curious how the Matrix bridge works, don't mind me
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16:17:19 <ulysses4ever> Oh, looks nice
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16:19:22 <geekosaur> I'm doing some builds with 9.4.6 and 9.4.7 and not seeing any such output with either
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16:31:00 <kenran> geekosaur: I've narrowed it down to a single package of ours, and that one uses the `concat` plugin. But the specific fork of the plugin doesn't seem to dump simplifier stats either, so I dunno
16:31:13 <kenran> but if it's just in that package, it's no big deal, as that's "stable"
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17:57:15 <apteryx> this resource is offline: http://learnyouahaskell.com/, referenced from https://www.haskell.org/get-started/
18:00:24 <EvanR> works for me
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18:02:47 <geekosaur> working here as well
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18:03:45 <[exa]> apteryx: there's an updated version thereof on github somewhere
18:04:02 <[exa]> apteryx: ah here https://learnyouahaskell.github.io/
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19:30:02 <ph88> why is there an instance of Traversable List in base but not Foldable List ?
19:31:04 <ncf> there is a Foldable List
19:31:06 <c_wraith> :t sum
19:31:07 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Num a) => t a -> a
19:31:12 <c_wraith> > sum [1,2,3]
19:31:13 <ncf> it might be printed as Foldable [] depending on the haddock version
19:31:13 <lambdabot> 6
19:31:33 <c_wraith> what lead you to think that instance doesn't exist?
19:31:33 <ncf> (https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23368)
19:32:08 <c_wraith> for what it's worth, Foldable is a requirement for Traversable. You literally cannot have an instance of Traversable without an instance of Foldable for the same type
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19:33:17 <ph88> c_wraith, when i search on this page https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.16.3.0/docs/Data-Foldable.html#t:Foldable for "Foldable List" nothing comes up
19:33:40 <ph88> ok i see Foldable []
19:34:29 <mauke> that's because there is no List in base
19:34:35 <c_wraith> apparently there is
19:35:06 <c_wraith> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/GHC-List.html#t:List
19:35:11 <ph88> there is Traversable List so that's why i was looking for Foldable List too
19:35:41 <c_wraith> that's a weird thing.
19:35:43 <mauke> huh, interesting
19:35:48 <ph88> by the way where is the documentation for [] ?
19:35:52 <ph88> https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=%5B%5D
19:36:27 <c_wraith> [] is a special case. the name isn't available to normal definitions, so I'm not surprised hoogle doesn't find it
19:36:40 <c_wraith> Err, the name [] is a special case. Not the type itself.
19:36:46 <ph88> [a] then i guess
19:36:58 <ph88> https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=%5Ba%5D ??
19:37:39 <geekosaur> that wouldn't be there either. the documentation is in the Haskell Report, not in function or type docs
19:39:03 <mauke> data () => Char
19:39:05 <mauke> uh ...
19:39:11 <mauke> https://hoogle.haskell.org/?scope=set%3Astackage&hoogle=Char
19:39:14 <c_wraith> I'm not quite sure what to make of GHC.List.List. I guess I have to count it as internal GHC weirdness
19:40:30 <mauke> now that's an operator: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/leancheck-1.0.0/docs/Test-LeanCheck-Utils-TypeBinding.html#v:-45--62--62--62--62--62--62--62--62--62--62--62-:-62-
19:40:33 <erisco> every language needs a blessed data structure :)
19:40:37 <mauke> (I was looking for (->))
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20:03:09 <ph88> how can i debug this code ? instance Aeson.ToJSON Scheduling where toEncoding = Aeson.genericToEncoding Aeson.defaultOptions When i use ddump-deriv i only see Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.FromJSON [App.Scheduling]; Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.parseJSON = Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.$dmparseJSON @(App.Scheduling)
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20:05:36 <mauke> debug in what way?
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20:07:50 <ph88> mauke, while decoding it can't find a field. but im pretty sure its in the right place in the json
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20:09:26 <mauke> I don't see how ToJSON is relevant for decoding
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20:12:12 <mauke> I don't know a way to debug this other than staring very hard at the code/json data
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20:13:09 <ph88> mauke, that was a copy paste mistake, should have been FromJSON which looks like the same Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.FromJSON [App.Scheduling]; Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.parseJSON = Data.Aeson.Types.FromJSON.$dmparseJSON @(App.Scheduling)
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20:16:00 <ph88> here type and json side to side https://bpa.st/FFVQ
20:16:19 <ph88> perhaps it has to do with the order .. but thats pretty lame because they should be found by key name i guess
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20:17:54 <Skill-ton> https://justpaste.it/Speedy_Gonzalez_Jerry_Blowjob Jerry gives Speedy Gonzalez a delicious blowjob and ends up with mouse cum on his face!
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20:23:11 <mauke> ph88: what are Vector and Planning?
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20:25:14 <ph88> mauke, here a small reproducable example https://bpa.st/X4FA
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20:29:20 <mauke> not quite self-contained: Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Generic’; Couldn't match type ‘[Char]’ with ‘bytestring-0.11.4.0:Data.ByteString.Lazy.Internal.ByteString’
20:29:39 <ph88> https://play.haskell.org/saved/y8bHMTyM
20:29:46 <ph88> mauke, ^
20:30:40 <mauke> ph88: bs = "{\"tag\":\"Bla\",\"a\":true,\"b\":false}" works
20:32:40 <ph88> ok i will try to change client side encoder
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20:37:03 <mauke> "contents" is only used if the constructor is not a record
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20:43:33 <int-e> That is fun if you have data FooBar = Foo | Bar { tag :: Bool }
20:43:58 <int-e> encode $ Bar True --> {"tag":true}, oops.
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20:48:29 <mauke> that's why tagFieldName exists
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20:49:55 <ncf> why unban?
20:51:15 <darkling> Bot, timer...
20:51:31 <monochrom> "All good bans come to an end." >:)
20:51:50 <geekosaur> yeh, I set a 30min unban, if they pop back in I'll make it permanent but they seem to use a different nick each time anyway
20:52:21 <geekosaur> (look for the "justpaste.it" url in the logs)
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21:28:18 <apteryx> EvanR: ah, it must have been my "HTTPS everywhere" add-on for Firefox
21:28:25 <apteryx> the site must be HTTP only
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21:39:04 <Inst> i checked re don stewart, seems to be working on Glean with Simon Marlow
21:39:33 <Inst> don't like making false claims, or at least leaving them uncorrected
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22:03:18 <justsomeguy> I'm writing tests with hspec, and one of them runs in an infinite loop. Is there a way to write the test so it times out after a minute or two instead of crashing my computer?
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22:06:23 <justsomeguy> Here's a dumb example of what I mean... a Vingere cipher that works with infinite loops. https://gist.github.com/kingparra/60ef78d2bb70a9d33ff8daf298f9de17
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22:07:10 <justsomeguy> (It's a broken implementation, I was halfway through an experiment with my homework when I ran into this.)
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22:08:34 <geekosaur> maybe System.Timeout and `shouldNotThrow`?
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