Logs on 2023-09-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:28:48 | <hololeap> | I have a function: showEBuild :: TC.UTCTime -> EBuild -> String |
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| 01:29:45 | <hololeap> | I'm trying to reimplement it with something that uses Text internally, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to change the return type here, since it's just getting written to a file immediatley afterward |
| 01:30:25 | <glguy> | not making the String and writing the Text straight to a file is probably better |
| 01:30:35 | <geekosaur> | ^ |
| 01:30:53 | <geekosaur> | unloess there's some chance that creating the String can stream with consumption/writing |
| 01:30:59 | <hololeap> | ok, I want to take your word for it, but why: |
| 01:31:01 | <hololeap> | ? |
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| 01:31:09 | <geekosaur> | because String is really slow |
| 01:31:15 | <geekosaur> | and wasteful |
| 01:33:04 | <hololeap> | so, if the Text is getting converted to [Char], and the [Char] is only being enumerated in order to write to a file, wouldn't laziness make this a pretty negligable cost? |
| 01:34:14 | <glguy> | unless the file is big it probably won't matter |
| 01:34:16 | <geekosaur> | conversion to [Char] is still relatively expensive because each character is expanded to word size only to be truncated again by the output routines (assuming the majority of its content is in the ASCII range) |
| 01:34:27 | <glguy> | but it's a bunch of extra allocations using String |
| 01:34:53 | <geekosaur> | and String is remarkably wasteful, it's like 48 bytes per character |
| 01:35:08 | <hololeap> | hm, ok. just checking |
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| 01:36:04 | <geekosaur> | especially with text 2.x and (default) utf-8 output, the Text can be output pretty much directly as is |
| 01:37:40 | <hololeap> | fair enough. these files are maybe 5000 bytes so it probably won't change much in this case, but it sounds like Text is much better |
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| 01:51:02 | <EvanR> | imagine how many conlang scripts you can support with 48 bytes per char though |
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| 01:53:17 | <int-e> | Isn't it 40 though; two tags, two pointers, one word for the actual character, as long as the characters aren't shared... |
| 01:53:38 | <EvanR> | which I heard they can be |
| 01:53:52 | <int-e> | sometimes they are shared |
| 01:54:00 | <int-e> | it's hard to predict :) |
| 01:54:56 | <int-e> | EvanR: I mentioned some of the dirty details last week, no need to go into that again :) |
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| 02:03:58 | <monochrom> | Char is 2 words when unshared. It is a boxed type, too. |
| 02:04:31 | <EvanR> | 2 words: Boxed. Type. |
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| 02:04:35 | <monochrom> | Haha |
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| 02:04:59 | <monochrom> | And don't forget that copying GC means double buffering so there is one extra 2x factor. |
| 02:13:16 | <monochrom> | LInked lists and binary trees are expensive in any language. 50-70% of space is for storing infrastructures such as pointers and local sizes. |
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| 02:19:17 | <wroathe> | Hey guys, so FlexibleInstances implies TypeSynonymInstances, but when I use them I get this: https://gist.github.com/JustinChristensen/5f2e64a1cc4bd689f21eee95555b9290 . Why does this happen? |
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| 02:26:15 | <probie> | wroathe: It's letting you use a type synonym in the instance head, but once it unfolds that synonym it's getting `instance KnownSymbol b => FooClass a` |
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| 02:27:01 | <wroathe> | Why doesn't the first one work? |
| 02:27:31 | <wroathe> | i.e. why is it demanding that I specify b should be an instance of KnownSymbol when I've already declared that type variable to have kind Symbol? |
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| 02:29:53 | <probie> | Firstly, not all `Symbol`s are instance of `KnownSymbol`, secondly I don't think that the `b` in the body of the definition is in any way related to the `b` in `FooType a b` |
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| 02:30:19 | <wroathe> | I thought that latter part was enabled by ScopedTypeVariables |
| 02:31:09 | <probie> | `TypeSynonymInstances` is not magic, it just means that it doesn't reject instances written using type synonyms. So you can do something like `type Point a = (a, a); instance Foo (Point a) where` and it will know you mean `instance Foo (a, a) where` instead of rejecting it |
| 02:32:09 | <probie> | So as far as GHC is concerned, you're trying to define `instance FooClass a where foo = symbolVal (Proxy :: Proxy b)` |
| 02:32:10 | <wroathe> | So essentially you're saying that TypeSynonymInstances doesn't work with ScopedTypeVariables |
| 02:32:28 | <wroathe> | In this case, anyway |
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| 02:34:42 | <wroathe> | I suppose with phantom type parameters on the type synonyms |
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| 02:36:38 | <probie> | It works if the parameters are still there once the type synonym is unfolded |
| 02:36:57 | <probie> | e.g. https://play.haskell.org/saved/Bd5dPSsP |
| 02:37:00 | <wroathe> | Ah, I see |
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| 05:45:29 | <Square> | When in GHCI, can one, when issuing ":load file.hs" get rid of the error: "These modules are needed for compilation but not listed in your .cabal file's other-modules:" |
| 05:46:06 | <Square> | ...They are specified in .cabal file. |
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| 06:00:45 | <jackdk> | Try `cabal repl` instead of invoking `ghci` directly? |
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| 06:50:27 | <Square> | Man, I love Free monads. They're powerful with GADTs. |
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| 07:06:50 | <Square> | Iirc, there is some file haskell like file type (with its own file suffix) that can contain code woven into documentation, but after compilation code parts get cleaned up and gets compiled |
| 07:10:57 | <mauke> | literate haskell? |
| 07:11:50 | <Square> | mauke, thats it. ".lhs" |
| 07:11:53 | <Square> | thanks |
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| 07:17:24 | <kenran> | our client is obsessed with "freeing unused memory" when they're deploying their apps, and of course our Haskell app uses as much as it can get its hands on :) a colleague mentioned he found an option (a newer one, I think he said from GHC 9 on) that controls the runtime to more aggressively reduce the used heap size, but I just cannot find it |
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| 07:17:37 | <kenran> | do you know what rts option could be meant? |
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| 07:23:25 | <lortabac> | kenran: maybe --disable-delayed-os-memory-return |
| 07:23:33 | <lortabac> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/runtime_control.html#rts-flag---disable-delayed-os-memory-return |
| 07:25:20 | <kenran> | lortabac: thank you! this might be it. I was looking under the gc options so did not see this |
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| 07:26:22 | <lortabac> | kenran: it doesn't reduce memory usage, but there may have been a misunderstanding with your colleague |
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| 07:28:12 | <kenran> | lortabac: yeah, there well might have been |
| 07:29:01 | <kenran> | I'm also not sure what the client really wants... they have the expectation that after some costly operations are "done", the memory usage they see (through a couple of layers, like docker) goes down quickly |
| 07:29:39 | <lortabac> | then I think this is the right option |
| 07:29:41 | <kenran> | yeah |
| 07:30:05 | <lortabac> | we use it at work to make monitoring more accurate |
| 07:30:37 | <kenran> | ahh, then it really is exactly what they/we want |
| 07:30:40 | <kenran> | thanks again :) |
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| 07:31:31 | <kenran> | I haven't experimented with any RTS options so far, except for -N and (due to their tiny machines) -M |
| 07:31:46 | <lortabac> | the doc says it makes the program slower, but we didn't see any significant difference in performance |
| 07:32:19 | <kenran> | so if I wish to have this option be the default, I have to "bake" it into my programs at compile time with -with-rtsopts instead of setting it on every executable, right? |
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| 07:32:31 | <lortabac> | yes |
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| 07:35:03 | <kenran> | how do I know I set it correctly? :D is the only way by inspecting cabal logs, or is there some sort of test I can perform? |
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| 07:39:06 | <lortabac> | kenran: I don't think there is a way to test it |
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| 07:49:28 | <kenran> | ah, it might be a candidate to put in $GHCRTS. if I read it correctly, I would assume they are merged with whatever I set on the command line, with the command line "winning" |
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| 08:15:14 | <danza__> | kvpy |
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| 08:17:24 | <danza__> | ops sorry, something fell on the keyboard :P |
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| 08:21:49 | <tomsmeding> | how do you get kvpy with something falling on the keyboard |
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| 08:22:05 | <tomsmeding> | kvpy<enter>, no less |
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| 09:58:33 | <danse-nr3__> | i recall reading about a class that was somewhat the opposite of a functor, but i don't think it was a contrafunctor ... which other options are there? |
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| 10:01:08 | <ncf> | not sure there are any others |
| 10:02:42 | <danse-nr3__> | right i cannot find anything else... |
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| 10:07:17 | <danse-nr3__> | oh yes, that was it, found the link. Cheers |
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| 16:15:00 | <albet70> | getValue :: m a -> a, this can be existed? |
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| 16:15:51 | <geekosaur> | not in general unless you're talking about Comonad |
| 16:15:53 | <erisco> | albet70, sounds like extract from Comonad |
| 16:17:08 | <geekosaur> | (and ignoring unsafePerformIO which is "unsafe" for good reason) |
| 16:17:41 | <albet70> | https://twitter.com/iceland_jack/status/1697561616198341066 |
| 16:17:47 | <int-e> | :t runIdentity |
| 16:17:48 | <lambdabot> | Identity a -> a |
| 16:18:46 | <ncf> | (that tweet is a joke, i'm fairly certain) |
| 16:18:51 | <int-e> | :t fst . runWriter |
| 16:18:52 | <lambdabot> | Writer b c -> c |
| 16:18:53 | <erisco> | that is intended comedy right? lol |
| 16:19:46 | <dolio> | What if m = Const ()? |
| 16:19:54 | <dolio> | getValue :: () -> a |
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| 16:20:16 | <int-e> | ncf: but was the parent tweet a joke as well? |
| 16:20:40 | <erisco> | Iceland Jack is definitely joking but I'm hoping Dillion Mulroy is too lol |
| 16:20:46 | <ncf> | who knows |
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| 16:21:04 | <EvanR> | albet70, wasn't even asking about monads! jokes on you! |
| 16:21:35 | <EvanR> | except for dolio who "gets it" |
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| 16:22:30 | ncf | . o O ( "be existed"... i guess existing is the most passive thing you can do ) |
| 16:23:19 | <int-e> | . o O ( Maybe alluding to BeOS ) |
| 16:23:27 | <EvanR> | merely exists - classical logic |
| 16:23:32 | <EvanR> | be existed - constructive logic |
| 16:23:54 | <dolio> | Const () happens to be a monad, but I did notice that it wasn't specified. |
| 16:24:15 | <ncf> | is it? |
| 16:24:17 | <ncf> | oh yeah |
| 16:24:23 | <int-e> | monads are useless |
| 16:24:36 | <dolio> | Someone was asking about it the other night. It's the monad that 'interprets every other monad'. |
| 16:25:04 | <erisco> | thought that was Cont |
| 16:25:25 | <dolio> | Well, that just goes to show you that people that say that don't know what they're talking about. :) |
| 16:25:27 | <int-e> | type HotelCalifornia a = Const () a |
| 16:25:28 | <ncf> | "interpret" in the sense of "monad homomorphism from"? |
| 16:25:42 | <dolio> | Yeah. |
| 16:25:46 | <ncf> | terminal monad, i guess |
| 16:25:55 | <int-e> | where values go to die |
| 16:26:18 | <ncf> | at least they have a pure death |
| 16:26:44 | <int-e> | death without side effects? |
| 16:26:52 | <int-e> | interesting concept :) |
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| 16:28:18 | <dolio> | 'Merely exists' is still constructive in homotopy type theory, incidentally. |
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| 16:31:29 | <EvanR> | i also heard Cont is "the mother of all monads" |
| 16:31:43 | <EvanR> | dunno if that's a different standard |
| 16:31:55 | <dolio> | Yeah, I think that's pretty misleading when you actually think about it. |
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| 16:34:05 | <dolio> | You can say the same thing about free monads and be similarly correct. |
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| 18:28:39 | <Guest2> | Can I short circuit a foldr where the accumulator is not a Bool but contains a Bool? |
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| 18:31:06 | <Guest2> | e.g. in "foldr f (complexValue, False) [1..10]" |
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| 18:31:38 | <davean> | I mean you can litterly insert an if statement based on the bool? |
| 18:32:00 | <davean> | I think I'm confused as to the question |
| 18:33:09 | <Guest2> | Maybe I made it more complicated than I needed. |
| 18:33:35 | <geekosaur> | "short circuiting"is not evaluating the `y` in `\x y ->` (that is, the second parameter to `f`) |
| 18:34:57 | <Guest2> | davean: It still traverses the whole list. |
| 18:37:16 | <glguy> | foldr doesn't have an accumulator |
| 18:37:38 | <glguy> | but if you want a short-circuit foldl you can make one with foldr and continuation passing style |
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| 18:39:07 | <Guest2> | In JavaScript I have a function with a mutable variable (i.e. the accumulator) and a for loop. If a certain condition is met I will break out of the loop and stop traversing. In Haskell if my f (in foldr f ...) starts with an if that checks the Bool it will still traverse the whole thing. |
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| 18:39:57 | <glguy> | > foldr (\x go acc -> if acc < 0 then acc else go (x+acc)) id [1,2,3,4] 0 |
| 18:39:58 | <lambdabot> | 10 |
| 18:40:03 | <glguy> | > foldr (\x go acc -> if acc < 0 then acc else go (x+acc)) id [1,2,-4,-5] 0 |
| 18:40:04 | <lambdabot> | -1 |
| 18:40:15 | <glguy> | that bails out as soon as the prefix-sum is negative |
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| 18:40:49 | <glguy> | or you can use foldM with Either if you want an early exit case |
| 18:41:43 | <EvanR> | it took me a long time to internalize that what Guest2 is trying to do is foldl |
| 18:42:34 | <monochrom> | Yeah the first response should be "show what actual code you have got" not try to guess the question. |
| 18:44:06 | <glguy> | int-e: I think we had to use this back in 2020 https://hackage.haskell.org/package/integer-gmp-1.1/docs/GHC-Integer-GMP-Internals.html#v:gcdExtInteger |
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| 18:46:28 | <Guest2> | monochrom: I reduced the problem to a containsDuplicate function https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vrrAb4h5 |
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| 18:46:40 | <EvanR> | > foldr (\x answer -> if x < 0 then 'a' else answer) 'b' ([1,2,3,-4] ++ [5..]) |
| 18:46:41 | <lambdabot> | 'a' |
| 18:47:11 | <EvanR> | this foldr which simply uses an if in there probably isn't going through the whole list because I made it infinite |
| 18:47:19 | <int-e> | glguy: Right, that's where it was then. But the loop was simpler regardless :) |
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| 18:49:36 | <haskellbridge> | <jean-paul.> That foldr... how does it not go through the whole list? |
| 18:50:13 | <EvanR> | personally I have to look at lambdabot's code for foldr! |
| 18:50:16 | <EvanR> | @src foldr |
| 18:50:16 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z [] = z |
| 18:50:16 | <lambdabot> | foldr f z (x:xs) = f x (foldr f z xs) |
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| 18:50:51 | <haskellbridge> | <jean-paul.> ah |
| 18:51:32 | <haskellbridge> | <jean-paul.> as soon as `answer` is not part of the return value of f, the result of the recursive call is not needed so not evaluated |
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| 18:52:15 | <EvanR> | the variable answer, yeah. The actual answer, is what is returned |
| 18:52:44 | <tuxillo> | hi |
| 18:52:44 | <monochrom> | > foldr (&&) undefined (False : repeat True) |
| 18:52:46 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 18:53:27 | <tuxillo> | I'm the packager of ghc for DragonFly BSD. where can I discuss bootstrapping issues? |
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| 18:54:01 | <[exa]> | tuxillo: partially here (higher traffic) and partially in #ghc (actual ghc devs are there) |
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| 18:54:17 | <geekosaur> | what kind of bootstrapping issues? |
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| 18:54:50 | <tuxillo> | ok, i'll join #ghc, thanks! |
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| 18:55:33 | <tuxillo> | geekosaur: apparently the include search paths are not being passed during bootstrap (for ncurses headers) and I'm ending up with " fatal error: term.h: No such file or directory" |
| 18:56:04 | <geekosaur> | that sounds like a #ghc question, yes |
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| 19:31:18 | <[Leary]> | Guest26: Consider using `scanl`, `zipWith` and `or` rather than `foldr`. |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-01.