Logs on 2023-09-02 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 09:00:21 | <Franciman> | hi, is there any connection between temporal logics and functional reactive programming? |
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| 12:14:52 | <Inst> | Out in China for medical care, ugh, all the commercial VPNs are blocked and I'll have to set up a Linode with obfsproxy again. |
| 12:15:03 | <Inst> | The Chinese Haskell Wechat seems to be dead, as well, 3 days without a message. :( |
| 12:15:22 | <Inst> | I asked, I know EMQ ditched Haskell Foundation, but they still have an on-going Haskell project, should be hstreamdb? |
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| 12:27:01 | <Inst> | Hoogle, Hackage, HF website, Haskell website all work, though. I'm surprised, Github is still working. |
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| 13:28:45 | <shelby> | Hi .. I have a question regarding extraction of unique letters from two words.. question is in more detail here ..https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1682ibc/compare_two_words_and_extract_uncommon_letters_out/ |
| 13:29:10 | <L29Ah> | [removed] |
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| 13:46:18 | <shelby> | Inputs words are "rectification" and "transactional" |
| 13:46:19 | <shelby> | Desired output is "eificansal" |
| 13:46:19 | <shelby> | I have written the following code |
| 13:46:19 | <shelby> | extractUnique xs ys = filter (\x -> not (x \elem` ys)) xs` |
| 13:46:19 | <shelby> | The current output is "ef" |
| 13:46:19 | <shelby> | what is happening here is that each letter of the first word is being compared to all other letters of the second word instead of the dropping the letter in both words at the first equal instance.. |
| 13:46:22 | <shelby> | How do i ensure that each letter is matched against matching character once and if found equal then dropped from both words.. |
| 13:46:25 | <shelby> | Also note the order of input of words is immaterial.. regardless of which word is entered first the desired output would be the same. |
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| 13:49:48 | <ncf> | can you describe in english what the function should do? |
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| 13:50:50 | <ncf> | it sounds like you want `zip` but... i have no idea where "eificansal" comes from |
| 13:50:55 | <probie> | Is this just the disjoint union, but with duplicates? |
| 13:53:04 | <ncf> | or a symmetric difference of multisets, maybe |
| 13:54:30 | <ncf> | > sort <$> ["rectification", "transactional"] |
| 13:54:31 | <lambdabot> | ["accefiiinortt","aaacilnnorstt"] |
| 13:54:39 | <probie> | Yes, I think you're right, we're working with multisets |
| 13:54:52 | <ncf> | aacefiilns |
| 13:55:18 | <ncf> | shelby: do you actually need to preserve the order, or would "aacefiilns" be an acceptable output? |
| 13:58:47 | <probie> | > > let f a b = foldr delete a b ++ foldr delete b a in f "rectification" "transactional" |
| 13:58:48 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘>’ |
| 13:58:51 | <probie> | > let f a b = foldr delete a b ++ foldr delete b a in f "rectification" "transactional" |
| 13:58:53 | <lambdabot> | "eficisanal" |
| 13:59:13 | <hammond> | https://mmhaskell.com/testing/test-driven-development <--anyone uses this? |
| 13:59:44 | <hammond> | coding in haskell kinda implies that you don't need TDD :P. |
| 14:00:20 | <ncf> | probie: hah, almost |
| 14:00:28 | <probie> | It has all the right letters :p |
| 14:01:49 | <ncf> | i don't see a way to define the order-preserving operation in a way that also doesn't depend on the order of arguments |
| 14:02:21 | <ncf> | i mean, extractUnique "a" "b" has to be either "ab" or "ba" |
| 14:03:52 | <ncf> | ...so i will assume the order is not important, and direct shelby to the nearest multiset library |
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| 14:07:24 | <Guest|15> | Hi! I have trouble installing ghcup on MacOS (13.5.1 ) |
| 14:08:10 | <probie> | Guest|15: Trouble installing ghcup, or trouble installing GHC with ghcup? |
| 14:08:34 | <Guest|15> | troblue installing ghcup |
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| 14:09:04 | <Guest|15> | with this command: curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh |
| 14:09:42 | <Guest|15> | it fails: "ghcup --metadata-fetching-mode=Strict --cache install ghc recommended" failed! |
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| 14:19:57 | <shelby> | @ncf.. no.. order is not important |
| 14:19:57 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 14:20:44 | <shelby> | I will try and explain how it is done manually |
| 14:21:22 | <shelby> | the first letter of rectification is r and i cross that and cross out the second letter of transactional which is again r |
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| 14:21:57 | <shelby> | so i remove r out of both words |
| 14:22:37 | <shelby> | next comes e in the first input word.. It does not exist in the second word.. |
| 14:22:41 | <shelby> | so i retain it |
| 14:22:57 | <shelby> | if i continue this process i get "eficisanal" |
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| 14:32:20 | <shelby> | ncf: Can you elaborate on multiset library ?? |
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| 14:33:45 | <ncf> | just use probie's thing |
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| 14:36:46 | <shelby> | ncf / probie :thanks . .will try this out |
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| 14:38:33 | <probie> | To save you 30 seconds of searching - the `delete` used in my `foldr delete a b ++ foldr delete b a` solution comes from `Data.List` |
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| 14:41:31 | <ncf> | `time hoogle delete`... real 0m0.015s |
| 14:41:39 | <shelby> | thanks probie.. i got that |
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| 16:03:33 | <Inst> | Not sure if this is interesting, but |
| 16:03:34 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/IPXw4nGs |
| 16:03:47 | <Inst> | I can't get this down to same runtime as C |
| 16:03:55 | <Inst> | I tried with direct Ints |
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| 16:11:52 | <int-e> | Inst: Well, can you even measure any speed difference compared to just `main = print 0`? |
| 16:12:16 | <Inst> | apparently, no! |
| 16:12:25 | <int-e> | So it's not interesting. |
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| 16:13:45 | <Inst> | so it's an issue with the benchmarking harness |
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| 16:13:54 | <[exa]> | Inst: try criterion |
| 16:14:10 | <[exa]> | they have nice machinery for measuring nanosecond-scale stuff |
| 16:14:11 | <Inst> | tasty will do in a pinch? |
| 16:14:43 | <[exa]> | ? |
| 16:14:58 | <Inst> | tasty-bench |
| 16:15:01 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tasty-bench |
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| 16:15:13 | <Inst> | although I've seen it behave badly when I generated the testing benchmarks via lists, probably something to do with laziness optimization |
| 16:15:33 | <[exa]> | ah ok that might work too |
| 16:15:55 | <[exa]> | you have to be pretty careful about what you actually measure |
| 16:16:12 | <[exa]> | half of the criterion tutorial is precisely about that; in short: care about deepseq |
| 16:19:35 | <int-e> | The naive thing would be to bump the number of iterations up to 10^8 instead of 100 (and using unsigned longs in C to avoid undefined behavior) |
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| 16:22:24 | <Inst> | well, it's on int, and shouldn't integer overflow here as well? |
| 16:23:29 | <int-e> | So you'll get an answer modulo 2^64. |
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| 16:25:45 | <int-e> | Integer wouldn't overflow but it would be painfully slow. (There are way better ways to compute Fibonacci numbers, of course.) |
| 16:26:25 | <Inst> | i know, matrix |
| 16:26:35 | <Inst> | this is more like, i want to know how reliable accumulating parameter is to get a for loop |
| 16:26:59 | tomsmeding | . o O ( fix $ \fibo -> 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibo (tail fibo) ) |
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| 16:27:19 | <Inst> | iirc matrix should be more performant |
| 16:27:25 | <int-e> | note that your code overflows already |
| 16:27:28 | <Inst> | i know |
| 16:27:52 | <tomsmeding> | the matrix approach does more redundant computation, but I'm just interjecting without following the conversation, please carry on, people are saying useful stuff I see :p |
| 16:29:01 | <int-e> | printing the 10^8-th fibonacci number takes way longer than computing it |
| 16:29:15 | <Inst> | unfortunately, not necessarily |
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| 16:29:45 | <Inst> | the C counterpart just got adjusted to 100 000 000, gets 32 seconds |
| 16:29:46 | <Inst> | erm, 32 ms |
| 16:30:13 | <[exa]> | how do you store the fib there? |
| 16:30:34 | <int-e> | I meant computing the full 20898764 (decimal) digit number |
| 16:30:38 | <Inst> | in fib, 3 variables are set, + counter |
| 16:30:45 | <Inst> | ah yes, |
| 16:30:55 | <Inst> | on c, on haskell, 3 variables as well |
| 16:31:03 | <Inst> | but i'm in business, at least |
| 16:31:06 | <Inst> | it got shifted to word64 |
| 16:31:50 | <[exa]> | ok so it's not the actual fib, just a fib `mod` 1<<64 |
| 16:32:06 | <int-e> | it's another silly microbenchmark |
| 16:32:20 | <int-e> | Meanwhilst I finally found the pun in "nofib". |
| 16:32:29 | <Inst> | it's not really worthit, tbh, i can't read the godbolt assembly output, and i'm probably better off just working on not being a fraud (i.e, getting the cabal GUI wrapper up) than on this silly little project |
| 16:32:42 | <Inst> | int-e: I don't get it |
| 16:33:02 | <Inst> | i guess, from what I've read, Haskell's performance can't be generated as a composition of base cases |
| 16:33:22 | <Inst> | so trying an approach of "start from minimal cases, then work up to more complicated cases" doesn't work |
| 16:33:23 | <int-e> | Inst: That wasn't directed at you, do you even know what nofib is? |
| 16:34:20 | <Inst> | nope :( |
| 16:34:47 | <Inst> | Haskell benchmark suite |
| 16:35:00 | <[exa]> | int-e: hold on right there, it's a pun? |
| 16:35:07 | <int-e> | (It's a benchmark suite, designed to have meaningful benchmarks rather than just testing evaluation of the Fibonacci sequence. So that's what "fib" stands for, officially. But it's also a word.) |
| 16:35:24 | <[exa]> | [eyeballing_the_site_very_hard.gif] |
| 16:35:42 | <[exa]> | ah ok |
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| 16:36:58 | <Inst> | is it still workable from your end? last update in 2019 |
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| 16:38:16 | <int-e> | It's one of the ghc repos... there are patches from 2022. |
| 16:40:22 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: I don't think that avoiding redundant computations is the end of the story here :-P |
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| 16:40:59 | <int-e> | (O(log(n)) operations with some redundancy will still beat O(n) operations without redundancy if n is big.) |
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| 16:47:57 | <Inst> | it's probably not worth investigating further, but why is ghc outputting messy assembly in the haskell code? |
| 16:47:58 | <Inst> | https://godbolt.org/z/3zGrqdM7j |
| 16:48:07 | <Inst> | with strictness annotations, this comes down to about twice that of the C |
| 16:48:47 | <Inst> | whoops, well, that version will loop |
| 16:48:48 | <Inst> | https://godbolt.org/z/hjorsed4G |
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| 16:50:56 | monochrom | takes it to the extreme and thinks that absolutely avoiding all redundant computations is as hard as the busy beaver problem. :) (This may be too extreme.) |
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| 16:51:36 | <stefan-_> | I am currently trying to modify xml with hexpat-lens (adding an attribute to a subset of all elements) |
| 16:51:47 | <stefan-_> | this is what I have: https://gist.github.com/dozed/4b596c09d743a4d5a52b5e391c910e71 |
| 16:52:02 | <stefan-_> | any idea for an alternative way to achieve this? |
| 16:52:17 | <int-e> | Inst: "messy"... for ghc's standards you should be happy with this code. It's a straight loop, it doesn't allocate; the only unfortunate thing is that it spills a register to the stack. |
| 16:52:17 | <stefan-_> | my guess would be that `allNodes` looses too much context |
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| 16:54:21 | <Inst> | yeah, tbh, i don't think pure performance is a GHC priority, nor should it be, except for specific applications where Haskell needs to do well, but isn't |
| 16:54:38 | <int-e> | the llvm backend could probably make a difference for this particular case |
| 16:55:00 | <Inst> | was just trying to break accumulating parameter, since a simple, 1 parameter loop gets you to match C more or less |
| 16:55:15 | <EvanR> | Speak for yourself. GHC, I'm really going to need more performance by the end of the week |
| 16:55:38 | <EvanR> | please get on that |
| 16:55:40 | <int-e> | EvanR: So get cracking then, improve the native code generator. |
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| 16:55:58 | <int-e> | The compile may be self-hosting but it's not self-modifying. |
| 16:56:08 | <EvanR> | I almost got my x86-64 codegenerator working. Twice |
| 16:56:54 | <EvanR> | the result was a greater appreciation of C |
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| 16:58:19 | <monochrom> | I think EvanR's joke is about anthropomorphizing GHC. :) |
| 16:58:40 | <monochrom> | Hey GHC, why aren't you answering my WhatsApp messages! |
| 16:58:53 | <EvanR> | my joke was about having an armchair opinion on what GHCs priorities are |
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| 16:59:13 | <monochrom> | OK I can get on board of that too. |
| 17:00:21 | <int-e> | . o O ( Haskell: The worst C dialect. ) |
| 17:00:34 | <mauke> | ghc -Oplease |
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| 17:02:34 | <int-e> | Inst: The reports of getting C-like performance out of Haskell have almost all been about memory-bound code where a few extra instructions in a loop don't hurt because the CPU is waiting on memory reads anyway. |
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| 17:14:01 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: _oh_ right, the exponentiation by squaring trick. I'd forgotten that one! |
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| 17:15:09 | <monochrom> | Also similarly for fibonacci. |
| 17:15:46 | <monochrom> | (exponentiating the companion matrix by squaring) |
| 17:16:08 | <int-e> | yes, that was the context |
| 17:16:15 | <monochrom> | Ah nice. |
| 17:16:42 | <monochrom> | But this summer I learned that we can call it "companion matrix". Didn't know of that name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_matrix#Linear_recursive_sequences |
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| 17:20:48 | <Inst> | well, thanks for putting up with me, I almost couldn't leave home on time because of prior procrastination, now I'm procrastinating with dumb microbenchmarks instead |
| 17:21:07 | <Inst> | going to focus on working with rarely used libraries now |
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| 17:30:07 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: huh, TIL |
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| 17:33:43 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 17:46:36 | <tomsmeding> | I always had trouble remembering what exactly the fibo matrix was -- not anymore, I think |
| 17:47:13 | <dolio> | Oh yeah? How do you remember it? |
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| 17:52:22 | <dolio> | Is it [0, 1; -1, -1]? |
| 17:52:57 | <dolio> | Nope. |
| 17:53:02 | <int-e> | dolio: [0,1,1,1] actually |
| 17:54:19 | <dolio> | Oh I see. I got confused because it has a bunch of negative signs, but so does the matrix. |
| 17:55:14 | <EvanR> | unfortunately one cannot be told what the fibo matrix is |
| 17:55:41 | <EvanR> | they have to see it for themselves |
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| 18:01:24 | <wroathe> | Hey guys, still tinkering with that types to sql code generator idea... question about the use of arrays with datakinds: https://gist.github.com/JustinChristensen/645f7f45d4b3dd1b32c935428d4c2a77 |
| 18:02:20 | <wroathe> | Seems kind of weird I have to define an overlapping instance to get this to work. Am I missing something that would let me define the [] case? |
| 18:02:37 | <int-e> | . o O ( did you know that you don't need the semicolon on the last line ) |
| 18:02:52 | <wroathe> | Yeah I did |
| 18:03:02 | <wroathe> | It's an old habit that I sometimes forget to skip |
| 18:03:05 | <wroathe> | And I copied this from ghci |
| 18:03:12 | int-e | is truly focussing on what's relevant. :-P |
| 18:03:24 | <wroathe> | updated :P |
| 18:03:57 | <int-e> | still triggering though, why 3 spaces instead of the usual 4. (sorry) |
| 18:04:07 | <wroathe> | Again, sloppy copying from ghci |
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| 18:04:52 | <wroathe> | Where do you see 3 spaces? |
| 18:05:16 | <int-e> | oh, it's actually a space in front of `instance` on the previous line |
| 18:05:37 | <int-e> | which might actually be a syntax error? not sure. |
| 18:05:49 | <wroathe> | int-e: stay focused :P |
| 18:05:56 | wroathe | splashes cold water on int-e |
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| 18:06:37 | <wroathe> | There, better? :P |
| 18:07:05 | <int-e> | wroathe: isn't it just a matter of using '[] instead of []? |
| 18:07:21 | <wroathe> | lmfao |
| 18:07:25 | <wroathe> | yes, yes it is |
| 18:07:26 | <int-e> | to disambiguate between value and type |
| 18:07:43 | <int-e> | but I'm glad we sorted out the indentation too |
| 18:07:47 | <wroathe> | Haskell should refuse to let me do [Foo] without the ' |
| 18:07:52 | <wroathe> | err, ghc I mean |
| 18:07:59 | <wroathe> | To account for stupid people like me |
| 18:08:00 | <int-e> | it used to |
| 18:11:13 | <wroathe> | int-e: Thanks |
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| 18:18:14 | <EvanR> | the more stuff that works, the less nonsense the compiler can call you out on |
| 18:18:15 | <int-e> | wroathe: Oh, maybe the ' was always optional except where required to disambiguate... but it used to be a warning with -Wall: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/20531 |
| 18:19:06 | <wroathe> | I demand that GHC protect me from myself |
| 18:19:10 | <wroathe> | I'm a mere mortal |
| 18:19:43 | <EvanR> | power armor requires power safety |
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| 18:52:20 | <cheater> | with great armor comes great need for oil cans |
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| 18:56:56 | <int-e> | life in plastic is fantastic (no rust!) |
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| 20:01:46 | × | tromp quits (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) |
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| 21:30:54 | thelounge7935 | is now known as thelounge793 |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-02.