Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-09-05 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:04:06 <Square> It seems to me cabal doesn't require you to specify files in Other-Modules/Exposed-Modules for it to actually compile and/or depend on that particular file. Can one enforce this check somehow?
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04:43:01 <Lears> TIL the inliner can diverge even on -O0. GHC does not like the Y combinator. <.<
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04:48:02 <monochrom> Square: cabal sdist will miss out unlisted files.
04:48:32 <Square> monochrom, oh ok. I'll try that
04:48:33 <monochrom> And cabal install runs cabal sdist first and then use that tarball only. So it misses out on unlisted files, too.
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06:26:41 <Axman6> Lears: can you even meaningfully type the y-combinator in Haskell?
06:27:55 <Lears> With newtype magic.
06:29:07 <Lears> % newtype Y a = Y{ ($$) :: Y a -> a }
06:29:07 <yahb2> <no output>
06:29:15 <Lears> % fix f = Y (\x -> f (x $$ x)) $$ Y (\x -> f (x $$ x))
06:29:15 <yahb2> <no output>
06:29:19 <Lears> % :t fix
06:29:19 <yahb2> fix :: (t -> t) -> t
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06:32:38 <Axman6> right, thatr's like a well known example of breaking things
06:35:28 <Lears> You can fix it pretty easily: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/23933
06:36:58 <Lears> (tldr with NOINLINE)
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07:51:27 <Axman6> Hmmmm, I didn't think that OverloadedRecordUpdate would be such a pain to use, do I really need to redefine getField and setField? Can't import some defaults?
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07:53:13 <tomsmeding> Axman6: > At this time, RebindableSyntax must be enabled when OverloadedRecordUpdate is and users are required to provide definitions for getField and setField. We anticipate this restriction to be lifted in a future release of GHC with builtin support for setField.
07:53:20 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_update.html#extension-OverloadedRecordUpdate
07:53:33 <tomsmeding> obscure design IMO
07:54:02 <Axman6> yeah I saw that, I was hoping I could import something and use Generic or... something. Was goping to not need lens for this project (as much as I love lens)
07:54:23 <tomsmeding> I'd bounce off from having to enable RebindableSyntax
07:54:31 <tomsmeding> that's a sledgehammer
07:54:56 <tomsmeding> bloody 'if' won't work anymore unless you define an ifThenElse function, or what was it
07:55:06 <Axman6> yeah, having to import Prelude and Data.String to get... numbers and string literals... is fun. Not worth it I think. Maybe I'll give optics a run
07:55:29 <tomsmeding> it feels so tangential to the extension itself though
07:55:35 <tomsmeding> why require the whole of RebindableSyntax
07:55:48 <tomsmeding> if it was just setField and getField you'd define those in a Util module and get on with your life
07:55:57 <Axman6> yeah agreed. I guess the extension should be considered experimental at the moment
07:56:12 <tomsmeding> imean, EXPERIMENTAL
07:56:17 <tomsmeding> :p
07:56:23 <Axman6> indeed...
07:56:30 <tomsmeding> boldface all-caps
07:56:37 <Axman6> (I did miss that and jump straight to the code, like any good dev should)
07:56:44 <tomsmeding> yeah
07:56:54 <tomsmeding> been experimental since 9.2
07:56:54 <Axman6> banner blindness, look it up
07:57:09 Axman6 -> home
07:57:37 <tomsmeding> that phenomenon is greater than just banners, and greater than just web or tech in the first place
07:58:01 <tomsmeding> our office building has a button that you need to press to open the exit door, and the button is on a pillar 2 metres back from the door or so
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07:58:33 <tomsmeding> the button was 10cm by 20cm or so and had an absolutely massive fat black downwards-pointing arrow pasted above it
07:58:47 <tomsmeding> as we say it, "it was too big"
07:59:01 <tomsmeding> people miss it constantly (who haven't been there before)
07:59:27 <tomsmeding> also if some interface, or letter, or something has text printed very big, that's not where you start looking for information, because surely it's not going to be that obvious
07:59:28 <tomsmeding> until it is
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08:00:38 <tomsmeding> (the button is now one of those big round red "launch the missiles" button; perhaps that will help)
08:00:46 <tomsmeding> s/button;/buttons;/
08:01:11 <tomsmeding> well s/big // because it's smaller than the bloody previous button
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08:14:09 <jackdk> Axman6: I like generic-lens and overloaded labels
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09:37:51 <albet70> is there a simple tutorial for alex & happy?
09:39:48 <Hecate> albet70: yes!
09:40:00 <Hecate> https://serokell.io/blog/lexing-with-alex
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09:40:04 <Hecate> this is part 1
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09:52:38 <thyriaen> Hiho, I have a string in my sourceode ( command run in the os ) which should not be altered, but is too long to fit in one line of my sourcede file hence i would like to split it into several lines -- what is the best practice in those cases ?
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10:04:35 <tomsmeding> thyriaen: multi-line strings exist https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch2.html#x7-200002.6
10:04:43 <Hecate> % :t mconcat @String
10:04:44 <yahb2> mconcat @String :: [String] -> String
10:04:59 <Hecate> thyriaen: 👆
10:05:12 <tomsmeding> but multi-line strings are typically hard on syntax highlighters, hence concat is typically used :p
10:05:16 <tomsmeding> % :t concat
10:05:16 <yahb2> concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a]
10:05:34 <tomsmeding> Hecate: would you use mconcat over concat?
10:06:07 <Hecate> % :t concat @String
10:06:07 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:9: error: ; • Expected kind ‘* -> *’, but ‘String’ has kind ‘*’ ; • In the type ‘String’ ; In the expression: concat @String
10:06:08 <tomsmeding> for really long strings there is
10:06:10 <tomsmeding> @hackage file-embed
10:06:10 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/file-embed
10:06:11 <Hecate> boou
10:06:21 <Hecate> tomsmeding: I usually use mconcat yeah
10:06:40 <tomsmeding> % :t concat @_ @Char
10:06:40 <yahb2> concat @_ @Char :: Foldable w => w [Char] -> [Char]
10:06:43 <tomsmeding> % :t concat @[] @Char
10:06:43 <yahb2> concat @[] @Char :: [[Char]] -> [Char]
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10:07:03 <tomsmeding> why does @_ @Char turn the t into a w
10:07:05 <albet70> monad do not compose, can we say monad can be wrapped by another monad?
10:07:13 <tomsmeding> that's called a monad transformer
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10:07:31 <tomsmeding> Hecate: are you also of the camp of using fmap instead of map? :p
10:08:07 <danse-nr3> i do, makes totally sense
10:08:51 <Hecate> tomsmeding: actually no, I usually do it ML-style, List.map, Vector.map, etc
10:09:00 <tomsmeding> I see
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10:10:27 <thyriaen> tomsmeding, i will use your multiline string, thanks <3
10:10:57 <danse-nr3> :t fold
10:10:58 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
10:11:25 <tomsmeding> % :t fold @[] @String
10:11:25 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:7: error: ; • Expecting one more argument to ‘[]’ ; Expected a type, but ‘[]’ has kind ‘* -> *’ ; • In the type ‘[]’ ; In the expression: fold @[] @String
10:11:35 <tomsmeding> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
10:11:35 <yahb2> <no output>
10:11:37 <tomsmeding> % :t fold
10:11:37 <yahb2> fold ; :: forall a b k. ; containers-0.6.5.1:Utils.Containers.Internal.TypeError.Whoops ; "Data.Map.fold is gone. Use foldr." => ; (a -> b -> b) -> b -> Map k a -> b
10:11:44 <tomsmeding> ?
10:11:45 <tomsmeding> ah
10:11:49 <danse-nr3> what are those @? Tried them on ghci but gave me syntax error
10:11:59 <tomsmeding> :set -XTypeApplications
10:12:04 <tomsmeding> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/type_applications.html#extension-TypeApplications
10:12:32 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String
10:12:32 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String :: [String] -> String
10:12:49 <danse-nr3> i see they are instances somehow
10:13:00 <tomsmeding> it's instantiating the type parameters of the function
10:13:01 <tomsmeding> % :t id
10:13:01 <yahb2> id :: forall a. a -> a
10:13:05 <tomsmeding> % :t id @Int
10:13:05 <yahb2> id @Int :: Int -> Int
10:13:12 <tomsmeding> it's instantiating that 'a'
10:13:21 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold
10:13:21 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold ; :: forall (t :: * -> *) m. (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
10:13:25 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[]
10:13:25 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] :: forall m. Monoid m => [m] -> m
10:13:28 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String
10:13:28 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @[] @String :: [String] -> String
10:14:18 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Foldable.fold @_ @String
10:14:19 <yahb2> Data.Foldable.fold @_ @String ; :: forall {w :: * -> *}. Foldable w => w String -> String
10:14:24 <tomsmeding> you can also leave out type parameters
10:14:44 <tomsmeding> % :t (==)
10:14:44 <yahb2> (==) :: forall a. Eq a => a -> a -> Bool
10:14:46 <tomsmeding> % :t (==) @Int
10:14:46 <yahb2> (==) @Int :: Int -> Int -> Bool
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13:51:41 <danse-nr3_> i am using hoogle with a local database for my project, which is really convenient when looking up stuff
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13:52:45 <danse-nr3_> i have got the impression that sometimes the server could affect the database, which is very strange. I would expect it to only read the database, but sometimes the server does not behave the same after a restart, as if the database had changed
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14:16:18 <adeptangel> Hi, beginner question here, can someone help me diagnose the mistake I made with this fold? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/s2zJpTDW
14:17:11 <probie> :t foldr
14:17:12 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
14:17:16 <probie> :t foldl
14:17:17 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (b -> a -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
14:18:46 <probie> :t let alphabetPosChar = (undefined :: Char -> String) in (\cs b -> cs ++ (alphabetPosChar b))
14:18:47 <lambdabot> [Char] -> Char -> [Char]
14:19:26 <probie> adeptangel: With `foldr` the current element is the first parameter, whilst with `foldl` it's the second
14:20:30 <probie> so you need to change the order of arguments in the function you're passing
14:20:57 <probie> :t let alphabetPosChar = (undefined :: Char -> String) in (\b cs -> cs ++ (alphabetPosChar b))
14:20:58 <lambdabot> Char -> [Char] -> [Char]
14:21:20 <adeptangel> probie: ohhh now I feel silly
14:21:21 <adeptangel> thanks
14:21:28 <adeptangel> fixed
14:22:22 <probie> or change from using `foldr` to `foldl` (except never actually use `foldl`, use `foldl'` from the module `Data.List`)
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14:33:01 <adeptangel> probie: what's wrong with the standard foldl?
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14:34:56 <geekosaur> thunks build up unless you're very careful
14:35:41 <danse-nr3_> https://wiki.haskell.org/Foldr_Foldl_Foldl%27 if you want to deepen adeptangel. foldr is fine
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14:38:57 <adeptangel> wow, that's weird, thanks
14:39:19 <adeptangel> (why isn't the more efficient one in Prelude?)
14:40:22 <danse-nr3_> as the wiki page says, foldl' is not always the best one to use, and foldr will be fine for most cases
14:41:39 <c_wraith> ... foldr is not fine for most cases, unless you like writing the CPS-transform to turn it into foldl' by hand...
14:43:10 <c_wraith> It's best to think of the fact that foldr and foldl' have similar names as an accident, and learn what each one *does*. Converting one to the other is awkward in one direction, and impossible in the other.
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14:47:48 <danse-nr3_> sorry i oversimplified
14:47:48 <probie> :t \f z xs-> foldr (\x k !acc -> k (f acc x)) id xs z
14:47:49 <lambdabot> Foldable t1 => (t2 -> t3 -> t2) -> t2 -> t1 t3 -> t2
14:49:55 <c_wraith> foldr is really bad when it's used with a function that combines both its arguments strictly. That results in it using stack space proportional to the length of the list.
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14:57:30 <probie> If you're folding over an infinite list, you always have to use `foldr`
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14:58:17 <EvanR> foldr and foldl' do entirely different things so a rule of thumb might be to not get into the habit of pitting them against each other
14:59:21 <EvanR> even though they are named similar and you can implement foldl with foldr, it's not like a bikeshed paintjob question
14:59:36 <EvanR> one is probably appropriate and one is not
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15:01:11 <EvanR> foldl' is your classic accumulating parameter loop, and foldr replaces the constructors in a lazy list with a function or the base value respectively
15:01:15 <dolio> > foldl' (\a i -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] ++ 0 : [1..])
15:01:21 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:04:06 <danse-nr3_> > foldl' (\a i -> a * i) 0 [1..]
15:04:12 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:04:30 <EvanR> tbf foldr fails on that too
15:04:44 <danse-nr3_> =D
15:04:56 <dolio> Well, it could avoid it depending on what (*) is.
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15:06:03 <danse-nr3_> > foldr (\i a -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] <> 0 : [1..])
15:06:04 <lambdabot> error:
15:06:05 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Num [Integer])
15:06:05 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘e_100111001’
15:06:55 <dolio> (<>) is too high precedence, probably.
15:07:13 <danse-nr3_> > foldr (\i a -> if i == 0 then 0 else a*i) 1 ([1..10] <> (0 : [1..]))
15:07:15 <lambdabot> 0
15:08:14 <EvanR> it's still gross, despite cancelling early on 0. Because of the chain i*i*i*i*i*i* up to that point
15:08:40 <probie> > let take' n xs = foldr (\x k m -> if m >= n then [] else x:(k (m + 1))) (const []) xs 0 in take' 5 [1..]
15:08:41 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5]
15:09:16 <EvanR> er, ...*i*i*i*i
15:09:40 <probie> <bad advice>Just always use `foldr`, but make sure to use it right</bad advice>
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15:11:08 <EvanR> Never give "Always/Never ..." advice because it's Always Wrong
15:12:26 <int-e> it says fold right because it's always right?
15:13:10 <probie> But also because it subsumes `foldl` and `foldl'`
15:14:03 <int-e> . o O ( only if you know that foldr takes 4 arguments )
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15:15:34 <int-e> And of course that story falls apart with Foldable
15:17:30 <EvanR> foldr the mother of all list functions
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15:19:21 <probie> The only function you need is `hylo f g = go where go = f . fmap go . g`. All this `foldr` and `foldl` stuff is insufficiently general
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15:20:45 <geekosaur> sounds like a lot of folderol
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15:24:08 <int-e> also that `fmap` is not on lists
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15:25:08 <int-e> (well maybe it is, but then you'll be working with unlabelled variadic trees)
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15:37:41 <probie> % hylo f g = go where go = f . fmap go . g
15:37:41 <yahb2> <no output>
15:37:56 <probie> % :set -XLambdaCase
15:37:56 <yahb2> <no output>
15:38:03 <probie> % import Data.Functor.Compose
15:38:03 <yahb2> <no output>
15:38:40 <probie> % let sum' xs = hylo (\case { Nothing -> id; Just (x,y) -> \acc -> y $! (x + acc) } . getCompose) (Compose . \case {[] -> Nothing; (x:xs) -> Just (x, xs)}) xs 0 in sum' [1..5]
15:38:40 <yahb2> 15
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16:35:48 <joel135> i haven't seen this hylomorphism stuff before
16:36:02 <joel135> but i've seen the löb function, pretty similar
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16:39:30 <probie> :t \f -> let res = fmap ($ res) f in res -- this one, right?
16:39:31 <lambdabot> Functor f => f (f b -> b) -> f b
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16:40:32 <joel135> yes, where f is a "sphreadsheet"
16:40:50 <joel135> the former f, not the functor
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17:20:03 <chromoblob> how best to walk a directed graph in parallel?
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17:26:01 <c_wraith> chromoblob: a breadth-first search, or actually parallel?
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17:29:59 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i'm thinking about walks where threads join for each node's incoming edges and thread splits for each node's outgoing edges, and (in my case) threads cannot communicate; "thread" means just code that in principle can be run in parallel with other threads, but isn't necessarily by a given implementation
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17:30:49 <chromoblob> and i'm interested about cycle-containing directed graphs
17:31:47 <chromoblob> the walk starts a thread in each node with no incoming edges
17:32:42 <joel135> does it mean that each graph node waits for a complete set of inputs (indexed by the ingoing edges) before spawning anything?
17:33:30 <chromoblob> joel135: well, that's impossible with cycles, of course
17:33:51 <joel135> i'll take that as a no
17:34:31 <chromoblob> no, forget that "the walk starts a thread in each node without incoming edges"
17:34:55 <chromoblob> the walk starts a thread in each given node in parallel
17:35:02 <chromoblob> there's just the start set
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17:39:35 <tomsmeding> chromoblob: how do you determine whether to spawn threads at a node or not
17:39:59 <tomsmeding> if you spawn threads for every single edge, your threads are going to be _much_ too granular, even with GHC RTS's lightweight green threads
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17:40:18 <tomsmeding> unless processing one graph node is super expensive and worth spawning a thread for
17:41:05 <chromoblob> ahh, so, a "performance problem"
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17:42:00 <chromoblob> why is parallel programming so undeveloped
17:43:11 <geekosaur> it's not for lack of trying
17:43:29 <c_wraith> this is a surprisingly hard problem. if you want efficiency, you need to not duplicate work across threads.
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17:44:52 <chromoblob> can my algorithm be expressed as one that forks and joins at *every* node, and then launched on an implementation that only spawns "actual threads" when it's worth to, and uses "stupid" scheduling of threads inside the "actual thread"?
17:45:37 <chromoblob> by "stupid" scheduling i mean execute sequentially
17:45:46 <chromoblob> (they cannot communicate)
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17:48:53 <chromoblob> c_wraith: how is duplication of work related to granularity?
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17:51:02 <c_wraith> duplicated work is a natural property of traversing a non-tree graph, unless you track visited nodes. tracking visited nodes in a parallel traversal implies some form of cross-thread communication
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17:52:39 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i mean. the threads that are parallel do not communicate, but communication does happen from a forked thread to the children and from the joined threads to the combined thread
17:53:44 <danza> sounds like you can make some assumptions about where threads can fork or join
17:55:00 <danza> and "forks and joins at every node" sounds like the work is in walking the links actually
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17:57:03 <chromoblob> the nodes are points of "the disjunction counterpart of unification", the operation is applied to all ends of incoming edges and all starts of outgoing edges, and these two results are unified
17:57:35 <chromoblob> unified in normal, conjunctive sense
17:58:52 <chromoblob> although identities are tricky there
17:58:59 <chromoblob> identities of unification
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18:01:28 <danza> is it possible that the graph state does not converge? Or is there an halting condition? What happens if a wave of computation comes back to the same nodes?
18:03:09 <chromoblob> danza: if there is a cycle, then a thread should join its own descendant. the multithreaded flavor of fixpoint
18:03:54 <c_wraith> how do you even track incoming work? are you storing all the back links for each node?
18:03:54 <chromoblob> ok, this is quite complex
18:04:48 <danza> i don't see how to model this as threads walking the graph, i can only think of a thread taking care of each node, which seams expensive, so probably a task for green threads at least at the beginning
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18:06:59 <c_wraith> I mean, this really sounds like a work queue sort of situation
18:07:15 <chromoblob> c_wraith: i don't get the question, there is a set of vertices and for every vertex, a set of incoming and outgoing edges... so you just look at the incoming edges, no?
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18:08:11 <c_wraith> it's kind of uncommon to explicitly store backlinks in some graph reprentations.
18:08:55 <c_wraith> if you're using an adjacency matrix, sure you've got them. but adjacency matrices are very inefficient for large sparse graphs.
18:10:04 <c_wraith> (admittedly, you could use a sparse matrix representation, if you have one in a library)
18:10:37 <c_wraith> if you're using an edge list representation, back edges are rarely included
18:10:53 <chromoblob> can't they be trivially included
18:11:13 <chromoblob> sure, most of my graphs will be sparse
18:11:25 <c_wraith> at the cost of doubling the size of tracking edges and making graph construction and manipulation more complicated, sure.
18:12:07 <danza> this makes me think that you mentioned "outgoing" edges, but if they are part of a node's computation, how are they outgoing?
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18:13:39 <chromoblob> okay, sorry, i think a normal fixpoint won't work here, thanks danza
18:14:14 <danza> no worries, you made us really curious :]
18:15:22 <tomsmeding> re "why is parallel programming so undeveloped" -- as geekosaur said, it turns out to be _hard_
18:15:47 <tomsmeding> easy solutions for easy cases sometimes work, but doing something more general and getting decent performance out is actually surprisingly difficult
18:15:51 <chromoblob> so, i already described the full problem i want to solve in short in the message which mentions "the disjunction part of unification", i also want it to handle cycles well
18:15:52 <geekosaur> people have been trying to solve it since at least the 1970s
18:15:54 <tomsmeding> all kinds of approaches have been tried
18:16:08 <chromoblob> "all" really
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18:16:33 <tomsmeding> the most annoying problems (for task-parallelism, like multicore CPU execution) tend to be communication and granularity
18:16:41 <chromoblob> i have an idea for a new processor architecture, if it works well then there will be one more approach
18:16:46 <tomsmeding> joins are communication, because they entail synchronisation
18:17:20 <chromoblob> but it's to come in some years
18:17:23 <tomsmeding> for data-parallelism, like SIMD on CPU and like GPU execution, there's more issues with control flow divergence and data locality
18:17:37 <tomsmeding> data locality is a problem on CPU as well, but not quite as severely as on a GPU
18:17:56 <tomsmeding> and these are just the high-over generalities
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18:18:19 <chromoblob> these also are architecture-specific.
18:18:41 <tomsmeding> they are, but performance is unfortunately architecture-specific :p
18:19:24 <tomsmeding> the best that we've got in abstracting over architecture for performance is "cache-oblivious algorithms", which are CPU algorithms that work with any kind of cache size layout
18:19:30 <chromoblob> i think there's guaranteed model-specific architecture-agnostic performance
18:19:32 <tomsmeding> but that's just one aspect of the architecture
18:20:37 <tomsmeding> how are you going to abstract over CPU and GPU? For a GPU, you need huge amounts of parallelism, where many of those parallel threads are allowed to be doing the exact same operations in lockstep on different, but preferably adjacent, data
18:21:01 <tomsmeding> algorithms that run well are going to run acceptably on CPU, but not necessarily very well
18:23:09 <tomsmeding> doing anything neat in this area is publication-worthy
18:23:35 <chromoblob> if i succeed, i sure will
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19:55:56 <chromoblob> okay, i misled myself, this isn't a graph walk, it's a graph map and a parallel unification job
19:57:14 <chromoblob> but
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20:00:03 <chromoblob> well, cycle-less graph can be handled by a graph walk, but with cycleful i don't even know yet how it should work
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