Logs on 2023-09-09 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:23:41	<hammond>	there is composition and there is also decomposition.
00:24:28	<hammond>	im reading refactoring and it's almost about breaking up large functions into smaller ones.
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01:14:21	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i asked google bard to make a lockfree DAG in haskell, and it piped back some code and then said "This data structure is lockfree because all of the operations are implemented using STM, which guarantees that they are thread-safe. "
01:14:37	<EvanR>	smart
01:14:53	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	jobs r safe right
01:15:14	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	if not maybe i should work on my ramen making skills or something
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02:22:32	<monochrom>	No job is safe.
02:23:32	<monochrom>	Make no mistake. Just because you know that an LLM gives a wrong answer don't mean that your employer will agree with you.
02:24:34	<monochrom>	There is a reason flatearthers and antivaxxers exist. There is a reason homeopathy is actually profittable.
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02:26:49	<monochrom>	Meanwhile science-based medical professionals are dropping out, indicating that they are not paid enough and so not even remotely close to being half profittable.
02:26:59	<monochrom>	Generally, if you are honest, your job is not safe.
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03:02:52	<EvanR>	unless you're tenured?
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03:03:17	<geekosaur>	they can revoke tenure
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03:20:39	<EvanR>	they can't fire all of us
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03:29:19	<monochrom>	The bar for revoking tenure is extremely high.
03:29:56	<probie>	they just need to lower the bar first
03:31:45	<monochrom>	Academia moves much more slowly than industry about this. One of the rare cases that an echo chamber actually has benefits: the profs themselves make the rules, so of course they make the rules to favour their tenure keeping!
03:32:34	<monochrom>	Sadly politicians and parliaments work the same way. >:)
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03:36:04	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	can somebody please please get the programmers are also human guy to mock haskellers
03:37:30	<monochrom>	Space, the final delimiter.
03:40:50	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	not a bad start
03:41:05	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	these are the voyages of the typesafe enterprise?
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07:22:20	<carbolymer>	any ideas how to shrink OpenUnion into a narrower list of types? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/77071242/how-to-shrink-an-union-type-in-haskell
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07:27:01	<probie>	carbolymer: does it have to have that exact type signature?
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07:29:18	<carbolymer>	probie: nah, just shrinked union
07:29:30	<carbolymer>	probie: I guess that constraint is a formality
07:29:46	<carbolymer>	maybe redundant
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07:36:10	<lisbeths>	None of the lambda calculus exercises on codewars are in pure lambda calculus
07:36:15	<lisbeths>	it is upsetting
07:36:54	<lisbeths>	these exercises should use the church encoding
07:37:41	<lisbeths>	they are just ordinary haskell exercised with extra lambdas
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07:51:54	<probie>	carbolymer: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KvbVvfWS should do the job (if at the point of use all types are known)
07:54:12	<carbolymer>	probie: looks good. Thanks a lot! I'll try it out later!
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08:21:18	<[Leary]>	lisbeths: That's upsetting indeed! I wrote up a bunch of LC exercises a few years back but never got around to putting them anywhere---if that changes any time soon, I'll send you a link. They're not very inventive though, mostly just building basic tools with which to build slightly less basic tools.
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09:33:31	<albet70>	there's too few articles about alex and happy, is there a good tutorial about them?
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09:48:46	<Rembane>	albet70: I've only seen a "this is how you get started"-article.
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10:38:39	<dminuoso>	institor: Never underestimate the importance of cache, indeed.
10:38:47	<dminuoso>	Oh. I was scrolled back a few days it seems!
10:39:14	<carbolymer>	keep em conversations going
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11:35:41	<[exa]>	albet70: tbh I didn't see much good ones, but I'd expect a lot of articles about flex&bison would port quite easily
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11:44:02	<carbolymer>	probie: works, thanks a lot!
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13:37:25	<carbolymer>	no
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14:09:31	<glguy>	albet70: I don't know any articles but I have examples. What kinds of things are you looking to learn if an article did exist?
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14:33:00	<blomberg>	hi
14:33:18	<blomberg>	i can't change my list as a database issue
14:33:18	<glguy>	Hi
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14:33:29	<blomberg>	i prefer using list as a db
14:33:48	<blomberg>	i don't have a literal db ofc, just a thought exercise
14:34:24	<blomberg>	i have a list of flowers and their characteristics , say in a database in a list ,,now how to change them.
14:34:40	<blomberg>	now i need mutation?
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14:35:27	<probie>	Return a new list with changed items
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14:37:02	<geekosaur>	monads sound scary but are actually quite simple
14:37:05	<geekosaur>	whoops
14:37:20	<geekosaur>	focus not following eyes…
14:38:27	<[exa]>	blomberg: why not have a `Map String SomeCharacteristic` or so? lists ain't very good for storing "named" information
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14:42:18	<blomberg>	[exa]:list can storing arbitrary info using nesting
14:43:06	<blomberg>	probie: l has changed then?
14:44:25	<blomberg>	probie:how can i just return a new list and not save it in a variable; l=f();now i returned the new list but l has changed
14:44:37	<[exa]>	blomberg: is it still going to type well with arbitrary nesting?
14:44:48	<mauke>	are you in the right channel?
14:45:18	<blomberg>	geekosaur: so we need monads for that. mauke type what
14:45:40	<blomberg>	changing a list is my problem
14:45:49	<mauke>	no, it isn't
14:46:01	<blomberg>	database always changes
14:46:07	<blomberg>	but list=db
14:46:12	<geekosaur>	blomberg, my comment was intended for elsewhere and not related to your question
14:46:21	<mauke>	is this python?
14:46:46	<[exa]>	blomberg: what does your app look like now?
14:46:53	<blomberg>	i am asking what's the haskell way
14:47:08	<mauke>	stop trying to change things
14:47:22	<blomberg>	to change variables list
14:47:40	<geekosaur>	passing the list around to where it's needed, instead of using mutable variables. (you can get mutable variables in IO or ST but you usually don't actually need them)
14:47:48	<blomberg>	but db changes with time; it's not my fault
14:47:56	<[exa]>	blomberg: you can just replace the item
14:48:03	<blomberg>	how
14:48:04	<mauke>	there is no time, either
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14:48:16	<[exa]>	blomberg: typically you would have a list with [("flower1", something), ("flower2", something_else)]
14:48:45	<geekosaur>	monads make that passing easier but are not necessary
14:48:48	<[exa]>	blomberg: then there are nice functions for removing e.g. the "flower2" entry from the list and adding another
14:48:51	<geekosaur>	(specifically State)
14:49:33	<[exa]>	blomberg: and you keep the changing list together with your code structure all the time, so that you don't need the mutability
14:50:20	<blomberg>	[exa]:"keep changing list together" - what is meant
14:51:05	<[exa]>	blomberg: that you don't make a "global variable" with the list but pass it around as it changes
14:51:40	<blomberg>	geekosaur: how can i pass the list around to where it's neeeded - it now has a variable name reference attached to it
14:52:02	<mauke>	? ??
14:52:28	<blomberg>	"pass it around" is too vague
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14:52:38	<mauke>	why?
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14:53:11	<blomberg>	because i can't read their minds mauke
14:53:45	<mauke>	what does it mean to attach "a varaible name reference"?
14:54:28	<blomberg>	mauke: a global variable is the name attached to it; so how can i avoid that using passing it around
14:54:45	<mauke>	why do you have a global variable?
14:54:48	<mauke>	use a local variable
14:55:21	<blomberg>	hmm
14:55:58	<mauke>	and pass it to functions as a parameter
14:56:10	<geekosaur[c]>	You do things in functions. Instead of mutable variables you have function parameters that change with each call, and a result that likewise changes. So your list is a parameter
14:56:12	<blomberg>	ok then where will i store the list, and access it? access is global
14:56:34	<mauke>	access is not global
14:56:44	<mauke>	access is wherever you access it, which is a specific point in your code
14:57:20	<blomberg>	so the flower list is in a function ?? now it's inside i can't scope is different
14:58:15	<blomberg>	it's a storage issue it's not transient that i can pass it to a function and then just get a return value, because of storage and access
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14:58:47	<mauke>	you're not making sense
14:58:52	<blomberg>	flower is a name that is accessible in global scope, that's the problem, if it's inside funcTION I CANT
14:58:59	<mauke>	exactly
14:59:04	<mauke>	that's not a problem, that's the solution
14:59:08	<mauke>	stop using a global variable
14:59:25	<mauke>	if a function needs access to it, pass it as a parameter
14:59:30	<blomberg>	yes i will then`I LOST FLOWER VARIABLE
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14:59:42	<mauke>	how are you losing parameters?
15:00:15	<blomberg>	? because parameters need to be fed via global variables
15:00:22	<mauke>	that makes no sense
15:00:24	<mauke>	> (\thing -> "the thing is " <> show thing) 42
15:00:25	<lambdabot>	"the thing is 42"
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15:02:48	<blomberg>	42 is not the "name"
15:03:07	<mauke>	true, but irrelevant
15:03:15	<blomberg>	bro what if i have a database of flowers then how it's a value
15:03:27	<mauke>	I don't know; that was your idea
15:03:39	<blomberg>	look i explained to you the problem 10 times, and you are beggining to troll me
15:03:44	<mauke>	> (\thing -> "the thing is " <> show thing) ["daisy", "daisy", "rose"]
15:03:46	<lambdabot>	"the thing is [\"daisy\",\"daisy\",\"rose\"]"
15:03:57	<mauke>	here's a list of flowers
15:03:58	<mauke>	or "database"
15:04:16	<blomberg>	yes that's a value that's a value and i can get a new value out
15:04:25	<blomberg>	i know that
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15:05:25	<blomberg>	but my database variable is flower ??? and that's a name, so name is static but the values are changing
15:05:31	<blomberg>	that's the problem
15:05:34	<mauke>	it can't be changing
15:05:37	<mauke>	this is haskell
15:05:59	<mauke>	"how do I do the thing that is impossible?" is not a sensible question
15:06:01	<blomberg>	looks like you have not thought and don't care about real life
15:06:33	<blomberg>	"how do i avoid the mutation in a db list" - is a sensible one
15:06:35	<mauke>	I know, real life is all about flower databases and lists that magically change values
15:07:00	<[exa]>	blomberg: haskell was explicitly designed to avoid changey things when programming, to reach better goals. There are ways to do that (e.g. State monad) but these still just simulate the changes in immutable environment
15:07:33	<mauke>	if you start with a global variable like 'flowers = [...]', there's nowhere to go
15:07:56	<geekosaur>	blomberg, you are fixated on a single model for databases. there are other models that you are steadfastly refusing to consider
15:08:10	<blomberg>	mauke: yes, so where should i "store" the "value"
15:08:32	<[exa]>	blomberg: to store the value, you create a list that contains the value
15:08:32	<[exa]>	done
15:08:36	<mauke>	blomberg: I already told you
15:08:43	<mauke>	and you said I was trolling
15:08:48	<mauke>	so ... :shrug:
15:09:19	<[exa]>	blomberg: btw what's your previous programming language? (it might be easier to bridge this from a common ground)
15:09:22	<blomberg>	you said store inside local variable inside a function, now it's gone! function terminated
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15:09:31	<blomberg>	[exa]:python
15:09:33	<[exa]>	blomberg: it's not gone if the function returns it
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15:09:59	<[exa]>	ah nice. you can do the same in python without ever using a global variable
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15:10:34	<blomberg>	[exa]: but .... i want to be able to type flower as a user and get the db, all i got is the value
15:10:44	<blomberg>	their is no reference
15:10:52	<blomberg>	via name
15:10:53	<mauke>	haskell doesn't have references
15:10:57	<geekosaur>	in xmonad, we pass the global state (XState) everywhere, using the State monad to simplify the code but it can be done without, just always pass the state as a parameter and return the new state as a result
15:10:59	<[exa]>	that's good, references are shady
15:11:25	<[exa]>	technically the "flower" name is the reference
15:11:33	<[exa]>	because it allows you to both reach your value, and change it
15:11:37	<mauke>	<blomberg> you said store inside local variable inside a function, now it's gone! function terminated <- so don't have the function terminate
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15:12:07	<[exa]>	good approach too ^
15:12:28	<mauke>	returning is optional
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15:16:08	<blomberg>	how is returning optional
15:16:41	<mauke>	just ... don't
15:16:48	<blomberg>	example
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15:17:16	<mauke>	> let foo n = foo (n + 1) in foo 0
15:17:23	<lambdabot>	mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
15:17:58	<mauke>	> let foo flowers = foo ("daisy" : flowers) in foo []
15:18:06	<lambdabot>	mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
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15:18:08	<mauke>	(pushing daisies)
15:18:20	<[exa]>	blomberg: here try this example: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/TE0UxL1b -- a complete listy database with user commands
15:18:35	<[exa]>	you can enter stuff like "set flower 10" and "get flower"
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15:19:51	<[exa]>	blomberg: btw haskell has no stack that would overflow; actually if you have a function that doesn't return, calling it causes the information about the caller to disappear because it's no longer needed
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15:20:05	<[exa]>	blomberg: so calling infinitely is perfectly OK and quite useful
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15:22:09	<blomberg>	are you talking about mauke code or some other
15:22:34	<[exa]>	blomberg: check the link I posted
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15:24:12	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: re STG stuff we talked some time ago, I wanted to make the stuff clear for myself so actually implemented a tiny thing here https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel
15:24:33	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	[exa]: awesome
15:24:46	<[exa]>	it is "spineful" but the only difference from spineless is that the "case" thunks and argument packs would be cared of by another stack
15:24:55	<[exa]>	and I don't want to manage that stuff in assembly
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15:25:36	<[exa]>	especially not when the x86 push instruction is SO NICELY abused for making thunkgs
15:26:02	<[exa]>	and also no gc yet which is what I wanted to try next :D
15:26:50	<blomberg>	[exa]:will the paste link expire when?
15:26:50	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	nice,...
15:27:09	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i probably can't understand the assembly but i will try to read it
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15:28:40	<blomberg>	[exa]:when you said calling infinitenly is perfectly ok, did you mean your code or just plain infinite recursion
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15:29:26	<[exa]>	blomberg: plain infinite recursion -- as long as your memory use stays checked, you can recurse as much as you want
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15:31:40	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i don't even know how to read this
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15:31:56	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	unfortunately
15:32:28	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i see like .thunkcode apply
15:32:34	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: ok in short, I use %rbp as "pointer to current thunk" and %rsi as "continuation argument". Because I don't have the spiney stack, there are 2 "kinds" of thunk, one kind is the normal one as in haskell (you jump to its code with %rbp pointing to it, it will evaluate, change itself in place, and jump to the continuation you gave it in %rsi), the other kind is a "case" thunk which expects a
15:32:40	<[exa]>	forced value so that it can continue the computation (this comes in %rsi instd. of the continuation)
15:34:31	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i am looking at for example .thunkcode apply
15:35:11	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: this is a good starter https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel/src/branch/master/print_123.s it makes 2 integer values for 100 (address goes to %r11) and 23 (address saved to %r12), then it makes a thunk that would add the 2 values (addr in %r11), another thunk that would print the result, and starts the evaluation with %rsi ("continuation" in this case) pointing to something that will exit
15:35:11	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i guess apply is a program counter or something? i don't really read asm
15:35:17	<[exa]>	the process
15:35:53	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i don't understand how "function arguments" work here
15:35:58	<[exa]>	the .thunkcode is a macro that wraps the code with a few annotation values that are used for guessing the thunk types (and would later be used for the GC)
15:36:27	<blomberg>	7
15:36:39	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	there are no function arguments in this, everything is passed through the registers, i think?
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15:36:44	<[exa]>	https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel/src/branch/master/print_123.s#L17 -- e.g. this says "make me a thunk that computes function plus, 2 arguments, argument addresses are now in r11 and r12, and save the resulting thunk address to r11"
15:36:49	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	that or you have to manually set memory addresses...?
15:37:08	<[exa]>	yeah all arguments and everything are in addresses
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15:37:39	<[exa]>	and when evaluating a thunk, you can "see" all off your arguments by examining the thunk
15:37:43	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	$plus is ... a string or a type defined somewhere or something?
15:37:54	<blomberg>	[exa]: send me more code to change the db and update it
15:38:05	<[exa]>	blomberg: left out for the reader as an exercise
15:38:19	<blomberg>	set rm get dump cmd [exa] ok
15:38:44	<blomberg>	but exercise is good , not my haskell
15:38:59	<blomberg>	i don't even know what is <> in mauke code
15:39:11	<[exa]>	blomberg: btw not sure about the timeout I put on my paste
15:39:14	<[exa]>	better save it
15:39:20	<[exa]>	<> is a monoid glue
15:39:27	<[exa]>	> "a" <> "b"
15:39:28	<lambdabot>	"ab"
15:39:44	<[exa]>	> ["a"] <> ["b"]
15:39:45	<lambdabot>	["a","b"]
15:39:49	<[exa]>	glues stuff together
15:40:08	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: $plus is the address of the plus thunk code
15:40:10	<blomberg>	> (\thing -> "the thing is " <> show thing) ["daisy", "diasy", "rose]
15:40:12	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:69: error:
15:40:12	<lambdabot>	lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
15:40:39	<[exa]>	blomberg: you are missing a " and a map
15:40:55	<probie>	:t \x -> "foo" <> x
15:40:56	<lambdabot>	[Char] -> [Char]
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15:41:01	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: anyway the arguments are taken from the thunk e.g. here: https://gitea.blesmrt.net/exa/uskel/src/branch/master/fibs.s#L12
15:41:02	<probie>	:t \x -> "foo" ++ x
15:41:03	<lambdabot>	[Char] -> [Char]
15:41:04	<mauke>	don't need map
15:42:09	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: %rbp points to the thunk in memory, first 2 words there are infoptr and "arity", and the 3rd and 4th are the 2 arguments it has, you take them out as 020(%rbp) and 030(%rbp)
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15:43:27	<[exa]>	anyway yeah it's a hack on a hack but I actually somehow like it
15:44:03	<blomberg>	> (\thing -> "the thing is " <> show thing) ["daisy", "daisy", "rose"]
15:44:05	<lambdabot>	"the thing is [\"daisy\",\"daisy\",\"rose\"]"
15:44:36	<blomberg>	> (\thing -> "the thing is " <> show thing) ["daisy", "daisy", "rose]
15:44:37	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:69: error:
15:44:37	<lambdabot>	lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
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15:45:07	<blomberg>	ok missing "rose"
15:45:12	<[exa]>	blomberg: btw you can open a PM to lambdabot and evaluate stuff privately before you are sure there are no errors
15:45:15	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	[exa]: my original goal was sort of the opposite of this,...
15:45:51	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	[exa]: i wanted to write the simplest haskelly abstract machine, this is a concrete machine,... which is good
15:45:55	<blomberg>	[exa]: ok i also learnt state monad and xmonad is hell
15:46:01	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: probably unrelated to the goal, just wanted to throw this to you in case it helps :D
15:46:10	<[exa]>	blomberg: state is pretty easy tbh
15:46:17	<[exa]>	blomberg: just needs some practice
15:46:21	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	[exa]: well yeah thanks i was just a bit worried that you thought this was what i was talking about
15:46:37	<[exa]>	haha no
15:46:56	<[exa]>	btw I actually fished out a pretty old paper with a much smoother explanation of the whole thing, lemme google
15:47:19	<blomberg>	[exa]: what's your cmd to set rm get dump
15:47:19	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	why in assembly are the register names fixed like this, why not redefine them based on the uh "function" or "most recent jump location?" or i don't even know
15:48:34	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/99370.99385
15:48:50	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: the registers are set by the CPU you use, no way to change them
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15:49:09	<[exa]>	you can rename them with macros or so, which would be a good practice I'd say, but too lazy
15:49:40	<[exa]>	blomberg: what does that mean
15:49:51	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	but the registers could be "locally renamed" so that their meaning within a uh, context or whatever you want to call it could be more meaningful,... same for these other things which you are manually explaining,...
15:50:08	<[exa]>	yeah good point
15:50:11	<[exa]>	as I said, I was too lazy
15:50:53	<[exa]>	(unfortunately some of these aren't often possible, in x86 registers tend to have magic meanings)
15:51:20	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	primop2_ret_int ...? return something...?
15:51:24	<mauke>	%ax is the axxumulator, %bx is the bxxumulator, etc
15:51:56	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i have deliberately avoided assembly,...
15:52:20	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: that's a macro that generates the "returning part" of a primitive operation definition that simply returns an integer
15:52:41	<[exa]>	(btw I find assembly much easier than base TeX)
15:53:27	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	yeah well this is why i consider myself a bad programmer, or maybe not a programmer
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15:54:13	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	ok,... but that macro isn't defined in the macros file
15:54:30	<[exa]>	yeah it's in primops.s afaik
15:54:34	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and,... i am trying to read the thunkto macro and can't make sense of it,...
15:54:43	<[exa]>	which line?
15:54:43	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i think i will end up wasting your time trying to decipher this
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15:54:48	<blomberg>	[exa]:? how to use your functions
15:55:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	.macro thunkto reg:req,args:vararg
15:55:14	<[exa]>	blomberg: run the program, and type "set xxx 10" as a first line into it, and "dump" on a second line
15:55:19	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i see pushq,... does asm have data structures or something?
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15:56:22	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: ah this. the .thunkto is a recursive macro. Basically by calling `.thunkto register, a, b, c, d` it does `pushq d; pushq c; pushq b; pushq a; mov %rsp, register`
15:56:44	<[exa]>	so basically pushes whatever you put there in memory conveniently and saves a pointer to that to a register of your choice
15:57:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	also it says armasm somewhere but i think you said this was x86...?
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15:57:24	<[exa]>	normally people use push/pop for managing the C-like stacks, I just don't have one so I can use push to make data easily
15:57:48	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	does asm have a queue data structure...?
15:57:53	<[exa]>	no
15:58:22	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	then pushq is...?
15:58:23	<[exa]>	it's directly for CPU, there's no data structures
15:58:30	<[exa]>	just memory and registers
15:58:47	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	... i assume it has something to do with a queue...?
15:59:09	<[exa]>	pushq %reg does: 1] decrease %rsp by 8 2] copy whatever is in %reg into memory at address %rsp
15:59:33	<geekosaur>	q means quad iirc
15:59:43	<[exa]>	qword or so, yes
15:59:48	<geekosaur>	asm needs sized operations
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15:59:52	<albet70>	glguy , scheme
16:00:22	<geekosaur>	pushb?, pushw, pushd, pushq
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16:00:39	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	... i mean, this is trying to make a stack, i guess...?
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16:00:42	<geekosaur>	byte word doubleword quadword
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16:00:59	<EvanR>	nibble
16:01:10	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: no stack, just using the stacky instruction to copy the data to memory without having to compute the addresses myself with more instructions
16:01:12	<EvanR>	not sure about name for half-nibble
16:01:19	<[exa]>	hibble
16:01:32	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i mean okay arguably the thunk/thunkto part of this is by far the most important and it is totally uncommented
16:01:38	<[exa]>	(actually bibit)
16:01:54	<EvanR>	bibbit
16:02:07	<geekosaur>	x86 and similar don't really do sub-byte. DEC processors used to do 3-bit subwords
16:02:10	<EvanR>	bitbit
16:02:47	<EvanR>	(Bit,Bit)
16:02:52	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	ifnb?
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16:05:44	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: that's the assembler macro syntax
16:06:27	<[exa]>	like here https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs-2.41/as/If.html
16:07:08	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: btw if you don't like macros it might make more sense if you just read the result, `make` and `objdump -S somebinary`
16:07:58	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i don't even know what it means to assemble or not assemble something
16:08:32	<geekosaur>	it just converts the textual format of cpu instructions into the binary format, expanding macros (when supported) as it goes
16:08:57	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i will make an attempt at reading this but it is very difficult, it would be like i explained something to you in french and you need to go learn french for the first time
16:09:43	<geekosaur>	you will find that it is in fact a very simple language
16:10:01	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	okay so the thunkto recursively thunks all of its arguments
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16:10:18	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and thunking is this pushq operation,... which i think is a stack essentially...?
16:10:57	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and then after thunking all of the arguments, it changes the program counter to point at the first thunk
16:11:07	<[exa]>	people tended to use memory for stacking things so much that this (decrease and move) instruction combination got its own instruction and was named "push" for obvious reasons :]
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16:11:45	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: yeah something like that. You can check the `enter` macro, that does the thing
16:11:51	<geekosaur>	once the concept was invented, at least (see Algol)
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16:12:17	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	why decrease %rsp by 8? everything is 64 bit here right? wouldn't it be decrease by 4...?
16:12:28	<[exa]>	64bit values have 8 bytes
16:12:32	<probie>	the "q" in the instruction just means quadword (64-bits) and "d" means doubleword (32-bits). A "word" is 16 bits because x86 was originally a 16-bit instruction set
16:12:36	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	ay my bad right
16:12:39	<geekosaur>	divide 64 bits by 8 bits per byte
16:12:49	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	sorry i think my head is still in the 32 bit era lol
16:12:55	<[exa]>	btw I found the octal notation too good not to use for the offsets
16:13:13	<[exa]>	000(%reg), 010(%reg), 020(%reg) <3
16:13:20	<probie>	so any time you see an x86 op ending with "q" think 64 bits, and "d" think 32 bits
16:14:27	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	offsets...?
16:15:12	<[exa]>	(%reg) means "memory at the register value", and some instructions also accept encoding like 123(%reg) which means "memory at the address of (register value + 123)"
16:15:13	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	okay yeah i am lost reading this
16:15:20	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	not having types hurts my head too
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16:15:35	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	like just the thunkto .. $plus ..
16:15:41	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: yeah, sadly this can't have types, computers don't have types
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16:15:46	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	does $plus expand into multiple arguments?
16:16:18	<[exa]>	no it expands to the address of the "plus" label
16:16:28	<[exa]>	basically it becomes a function pointer for plus (if you like C)
16:16:42	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and then $2 ...?
16:16:53	<[exa]>	also it's not expansion, $ is a label for values that don't mean anything
16:16:58	<mauke>	$ marks constants
16:17:01	<mauke>	$2 is the number 2
16:17:06	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	LOL
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16:17:19	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	it is both a memory address and a literal?
16:17:23	<[exa]>	if I would do `pushq 5` it would try to fish out a value from memory address 5
16:17:24	<mauke>	same thing
16:17:26	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	this is why i have avoided memory
16:17:28	<[exa]>	typically giving a segfault.
16:17:31	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	avoided assembly i mean
16:17:47	<[exa]>	it's a number, it can mean anything
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16:18:11	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	^ that is quote worthy
16:18:18	<[exa]>	polymorphism at best!
16:18:21	<mauke>	the 123(%ecx) notation made more sense when you had mostly arrays, which were of course global entities in the data segment, indexed by variables (registers)
16:18:29	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	lol this is maximally polymorphic code
16:18:30	<mauke>	some_numbers(%ecx)
16:18:57	<geekosaur>	you've heard of "stringly typed"? asm is "numberly typed"
16:19:04	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	yeah
16:19:08	<mauke>	that's basically like array indexing
16:19:28	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	don't like make a mistake or anything >:)
16:19:39	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: yeah anyway the notation is also used for structure access typically, in C++ if you do something like struct->xxx, it typically takes 111(%reg) where 111 is offsetof(struct_type,xxx) and %reg is where it currently stores the pointer
16:19:45	<geekosaur>	this is why higher level languages were invented
16:20:19	<mauke>	nowadays you usually have (dynamic) objects (so their address is in a register) accessed at a statically known offset (= member)
16:20:53	<mauke>	so it's all index(ptr), which looks backwards
16:21:06	<mauke>	C has your back, of course. in C you can also write i[array] :-)
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16:21:18	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	lol
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16:22:00	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	so i mean this asm program is a stack of instructions.... i guess? lol
16:22:03	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: arrai[idx] == (array+idx) == (idx+array) == idx[array] and for this reason I'm unhappy that such an algebraic marvel still wasn't implemented in haskell
16:22:21	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: the instructions are static, I'm just misusing the stack for storing the thunk data
16:22:56	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: to see what the CPU sees, just clone the repository, type `make`, and then `objdump -S print_123`
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16:23:21	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	this had better not steal my bitcoins
16:23:48	<geekosaur>	I would hate to try to write anything involving NFTs directly in asm
16:23:53	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	haha
16:24:00	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	4 errors
16:24:28	<[exa]>	yeah the program probably wouldn't be like 8kB
16:24:30	<[exa]>	:D
16:24:49	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: do you have a gnu assembler as the system `as` ? with that it should work
16:25:01	<[exa]>	also I didn't really try it on any other computer yet
16:25:03	<[exa]>	ymmv wildly
16:25:08	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	https://paste.rs/otYlM.php
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16:25:38	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/WoWtvjTR I got it here
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16:25:55	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: what's your `as --version` ?
16:26:03	<mauke>	what platform is this?
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16:26:05	<geekosaur>	doesn't have jmp? is that an x86?
16:26:16	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i am on a mac because i am cooler than all of you
16:26:22	<geekosaur>	then it won't work
16:26:32	<geekosaur>	arm is a different instruction set
16:26:34	<[exa]>	oh boy, I should hae used C!
16:26:40	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	haha
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16:27:14	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S1fISh-pag
16:28:34	<[exa]>	ah yeah on arm it's called B like "branch"
16:29:17	<mauke>	you know when you're on a path, and suddenly it splits into ... one path? that's called a branch
16:29:30	<[exa]>	ez branch
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16:30:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	b fixed that,...
16:30:23	<geekosaur>	you will have a lot more "fun" trying to translate that for arm
16:30:42	<geekosaur>	the right language to write that in was probably cmm
16:32:46	<[exa]>	hm I might actually have written this in lli
16:32:54	<[exa]>	gooooood
16:33:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i am not with a real computer right now, but maybe in a few days i will be with one (x86) and then i will let you steal the bitcoins from that computer
16:33:16	<[exa]>	:D
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16:34:34	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	but yeah sorry i am too much of a noob (or really, too experienced) to touch the asm config of this machine
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16:38:38	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: how do you "touch asm config" of a machine? (other than replacing the CPU)
16:38:47	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	haha assembler config
16:38:53	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	switching as to some other thing
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16:39:14	<EvanR>	arrai[idx] == (array+idx) == (idx+array) == idx[array] is obviously true, and I learned the underlying justification at some point, and I still don't get it xD
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16:39:44	<mauke>	justification: + is commutative, even when doing pointer arithmetic
16:39:52	<mauke>	the rest is just the definition of []
16:39:55	<[exa]>	ah you might probably just run it in the x86-ish docker if you have it installed
16:39:56	<EvanR>	yes that's the obviously true part
16:40:12	<geekosaur>	or install binutils via brew/macports
16:40:12	<EvanR>	+ commutative and definition of array notation
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16:40:33	<geekosaur>	if all you need is binutils as macros
16:41:10	<mauke>	sizeof(0)["abcdefgijk"]
16:41:17	<EvanR>	the underlying justification involves the size of elements
16:41:26	<EvanR>	some C thing
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16:42:52	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	bbiab
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17:23:17	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	this will sound offtopic from our very concrete discussion
17:24:05	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	but at a high level it would be nice to "write mathematics" rather than computer programs
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17:24:22	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	and i am curious to understand what the actual difference is
17:24:43	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	i think people regard these two things as "obviously" different
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17:26:29	<EvanR>	in math you're pretty sure the sqrt function doesn't have side effects
17:27:04	<EvanR>	which is nice
17:27:53	<monochrom>	We already know how to define side effects in math. That won't be a difference.
17:28:25	<monochrom>	In principle there is no difference. And that's what I do and how I write both programs and proofs.
17:28:57	<monochrom>	But as usual, specialization will cause all kinds of differences in skills and talents.
17:29:03	<EvanR>	world state transfer tracking or some such?
17:29:24	<monochrom>	No.
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17:30:56	<monochrom>	It depends on specifically which effect, but for each of them we know how to do it in math, and we also know how to combine most of them.
17:31:13	<monochrom>	(It is called "computer science".)
17:32:19	<EvanR>	I'm wondering if segfaultfizzbuzz meant something by mathematics that would draw an actual distinction so your tautologies would not fire xD
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17:35:05	<monochrom>	Even if you look only into math as in only what people in math departments do, you take a look at how the differential equation people work, and you take a look at how the group theory people work, that already is a big difference. And both are within math. "both". "math".
17:35:27	<monochrom>	So why is it surprising that proofs and programs feel different?
17:35:41	<wroathe>	Math does have side effects. It has the side effect of making me feel inferior.
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17:36:46	<monochrom>	Specialization happens. Skill sets diverge.
17:37:20	<monochrom>	Don't forget that mathematicians like Ada Lovelace and Alan Turing wrote the first programs.
17:37:59	<monochrom>	Don't even forget that philosophers like Newton branched off math and physics.
17:38:38	<monochrom>	One may as well ask "why are philosophy and math different? why are philosophy and physics different? why are math and physics different?"
17:38:54	<monochrom>	Well they used to be one and the same. Then specialization happened.
17:39:39	<EvanR>	everyone agrees when/that a bogus proof/program is bogus, unlike philosophy xD
17:39:54	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	side effects is one good answer,... another (good?) answer here might be that programs (albeit maybe not pure fp) are typically about sequences of instructions
17:40:34	<geekosaur>	proofs are composed of sequences of instructions/equations to apply
17:40:38	<EvanR>	unless you get into dynamically typed programming then people don't agree anymore and it's more like philosophy
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17:42:24	<EvanR>	yeah look at euclids proofs, it's a series of steps to go from the hypotheses to the conclusion
17:42:53	<EvanR>	a recipe to prove the thing
17:43:05	<monochrom>	It is, however, very pruduent to make a distinction between philosophers and armchari philosophers. Totally different.
17:47:15	<EvanR>	I suggest a way to clarify segfaultfizzbuzz's distinction: the interfaces. The interfaces of stuff you have in the software world, including all the side effects and other nonsense, are very complex. The interface to the stuff in modern math is (appears to be, is presented as?) much more streamlined. Or maybe this is just really good type inference
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17:48:13	<EvanR>	in which case yeah math is nicer
17:48:23	<monochrom>	That is a consequence of specialization.
17:49:40	<monochrom>	Before programming existed, people would say the same about physics.
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17:52:05	<jjhoo>	should one talk only about physics, or make a distinction between theoretical physics and experimental physics.
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17:53:59	<monochrom>	One more specialization and divergence right there.
17:54:51	<monochrom>	Even the fluid dynamics people and the particle physics people work in very different ways.
17:55:38	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	...i am thinking programs are basically PRNG systems whereas math is not
17:55:49	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	math is everything which is not PRNG
17:56:14	<EvanR>	segfaultfizzbuzz, I'm thinking the answer to your original question is what is the program / proof supposed to do / supposed to be about. In which case one language or the other might be nicer
17:56:23	<monochrom>	You have not heard of the math area called "dynamic systems"? Not even under the popsci name "chaos"?
17:56:49	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	monochrom: yep used to code that up, but you would use mathematics to encapsulate predictions such as statistical predictions
17:57:00	<dolio>	The difference between writing programs and writing math that is consumed by a computer is that the latter is harder.
17:57:01	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	you won't actually use mathematics to follow the individual trajectories
17:57:18	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	there is a practical useful line of thinking to be had here however
17:57:35	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	which is, are side effects entangled with the program or can they often/always be separated...?
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17:57:54	<EvanR>	many algorithms are easier to write down in the language of side effects
17:58:17	<EvanR>	so disentangling them is counterproductive
17:58:37	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	comes down to noninvertible steps in the algo maybe?
17:58:46	<TMA>	I think EvanR's remark about the interfaces is good. math is concerned with "simple interfaces" whereas programming is concerned with "poorly understood complex interfaces"
17:59:12	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	hmm
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17:59:37	<EvanR>	that also might just be a maturity thing
17:59:43	<EvanR>	I don't know
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18:00:54	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	[exa]: i asked bard to translate your x86 asm into arm and it doesn't seem to be working lol
18:01:07	<TMA>	a procedure that reads a character from the standard input has the whole of the universe as an argument
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18:02:21	<EvanR>	unfortunately you can't separate the computer from the universe, because quantum mechanics
18:02:26	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	TMA: sort of but not really, you can only get information from nearby
18:02:28	<EvanR>	so they both take each other as arguments!
18:03:02	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	but information does travel pretty rapidly on a planetary scale, so the practical diameter and number of things which can have an effect is pretty substantial
18:03:37	<EvanR>	you're talking about the past lightcone of the running computer which is very big
18:03:53	<EvanR>	astronomy uses it all the time
18:04:08	<TMA>	because that character is influenced not only by some external software state (say system locale which tells that this particular set of bits coming from somewhere shall be interpreted as that or other character), but for example on some radioactive decay when those bits come from a gaiger counter
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18:04:43	<TMA>	or a radiotelescope
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18:06:21	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	actually, it is not a lightcone. it is a 5d volume, because you don't quite know how far in the past the information comes from,... and the farther in the past the greater the potential radius
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18:06:34	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	volume*time^2, super weird units
18:07:40	<EvanR>	anyway no the point of the computer is to look into an abstract world, and do everything it can to suppress the real world when it gets in the way. See the schmitt triggers on the input pins to your arduino, hardcore suppression
18:08:40	<EvanR>	error correction on your SSD data
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18:18:30	<blomberg>	hey guys just like in python print(x) prints the global variable, will haskell be able to access externals?
18:18:45	<blomberg>	y=x; where x is a global
18:19:50	<geekosaur>	you do not generally use globals in Haskell
18:20:00	<geekosaur>	you need to rethink how you program
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18:21:42	<blomberg>	i mean will it allow me to like in python, x=5;def f():y=x;print(x) ; can i do this in haskell
18:21:57	<blomberg>	i mean will it allow me to like in python, x=5;def f():y=x;print(y) ; can i do this in haskell
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18:22:42	<blomberg>	can i assigns globals to locals inside a function,... very basic question
18:22:53	<institor>	blomberg: i recommend getting a handle on pure functional programming first
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18:23:25	<monochrom>	I do not see why, for that toy example, you must insist x to be global.
18:23:28	<institor>	> let x = 5; y = x in print y
18:23:31	<lambdabot>	<IO ()>
18:23:40	<institor>	well shit
18:23:56	<probie>	% let x = 5; y = x in print y
18:23:56	<yahb2>	Oops, something went wrong
18:24:49	<blomberg>	monochrom: will it show error or not
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18:25:25	<monochrom>	% let x = 5; y = x in print y
18:25:25	<yahb2>	5
18:25:28	<institor>	blomberg: when working in haskell you should get the idea of "mutability" out of your head
18:25:30	<institor>	(for now)
18:25:33	<monochrom>	(You just have to try again :) )
18:26:25	<monochrom>	IMO that question is stupid and I won't answer.
18:26:40	<blomberg>	institor: did you know my earlier conversation
18:26:41	<institor>	% readFile "/etc/passwd"
18:26:41	<yahb2>	*** Exception: /etc/passwd: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)
18:27:05	<institor>	% writeFile "/tmp/hello" "world"
18:27:05	<yahb2>	<no output>
18:27:12	<blomberg>	monochrom:i think that's fundamental to understanding the functional approach
18:27:12	<institor>	% readFile "/tmp/hello"
18:27:12	<yahb2>	"world"
18:27:14	<institor>	lol
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18:27:30	<institor>	% readFile "/bin/sh"
18:27:30	<yahb2>	*** Exception: /bin/sh: hGetContents: invalid argument (invalid byte sequence)
18:27:39	<institor>	% writeFile "/bin/sh" ""
18:27:39	<yahb2>	*** Exception: /bin/sh: withFile: permission denied (Read-only file system)
18:27:44	<institor>	ah ok
18:28:12	<institor>	blomberg: i recommend reading the book "Learn You a Haskell"
18:28:20	<monochrom>	Even if you're an English-speaking person learning Japanese, "translating" English into Japan word-by-word is stupid. And they are not all that different.
18:28:36	<institor>	speaking of fundamentals...
18:29:02	<blomberg>	institor: define a function that borrows x from outside , should it be atleast allowed as a FP approach or not, it has nothing to do with me reading that thick book
18:29:18	<institor>	blomberg: have it your way, you're going to be lost
18:30:10	<blomberg>	> x=5; f = y where y=x
18:30:12	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’
18:30:13	<institor>	i have blomberg appliances
18:30:26	<monochrom>	In Chinese, at least 50 years ago, we didn't greet each other with "good day" or "good" anything. We said "have you had your meal?". (Even that is not the exact wording. The exact wording was "have you eaten?".)
18:30:30	<institor>	the defroster in my freezer is broken
18:30:39	<institor>	but parts & labour are damn expensive
18:30:48	<blomberg>	what's the correction to my line
18:30:59	<blomberg>	> x=5; f = y where y=x;
18:31:00	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’
18:31:16	<monochrom>	So a Chinese-speaking person asking "how do you translate 'have you eaten?' into English, word for word" and saying "just answer me, it's a basic question", that's... well you get my point.
18:31:20	<blomberg>	% x=5; f = y where y=x;
18:31:21	<yahb2>	<no output>
18:31:32	<blomberg>	% x=5; f = y where y=x;print y;
18:31:32	<yahb2>	<interactive>:23:29: error: parse error on input ‘;’
18:31:35	<institor>	blomberg: https://www.haskell.org/tutorial/patterns.html
18:31:38	<blomberg>	what's the error
18:31:40	<institor>	> 4.5 Lexical Scoping and Nested Forms
18:31:41	<lambdabot>	error: Data constructor not in scope: Lexicalerror: Data constructor not in ...
18:31:46	<institor>	blomberg: try reading the manual
18:31:51	<institor>	or something at least
18:32:12	<blomberg>	oh god i already know haskell
18:32:16	<institor>	obviously not
18:32:19	<monochrom>	The correct thing to do is to first understand what is the role played by "have you eaten?", recognize that the answer is greeting, then you ask how do English-speaking people actually greet each other.
18:32:23	<institor>	god
18:32:31	<institor>	chatGPT is going to take over programmers' jobs, my ass
18:32:46	<institor>	at this rate it'll be a miracle if they even know how to use chatGPT
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18:34:21	<institor>	% callCommand "mount"
18:34:21	<yahb2>	<interactive>:25:1: error: ; Variable not in scope: callCommand :: String -> t
18:35:20	<institor>	% readFile "/etc/mtab"
18:35:20	<yahb2>	*** Exception: /etc/mtab: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)
18:35:36	<EvanR>	blomberg, you can literally let x = someGlobalVariable, e.g. let f = chr in f 32
18:35:46	<EvanR>	> let f = chr in f 42
18:35:48	<lambdabot>	'*'
18:36:14	<EvanR>	chr is a variable, and global
18:36:38	<blomberg>	% x=5; f = y where y=x;print y; where is the error in my line
18:36:38	<yahb2>	<interactive>:29:29: error: parse error on input ‘;’
18:36:48	<institor>	lmfao
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18:37:15	<EvanR>	> let x = 5 in print x
18:37:17	<lambdabot>	<IO ()>
18:37:31	<institor>	:23:28 institor \| > let x = 5; y = x in print y
18:37:34	<EvanR>	> let y = print; x = 5 in y x
18:37:34	<blomberg>	no i want a function
18:37:36	<lambdabot>	<IO ()>
18:37:59	<yushyin>	blomberg: works fine with functions too, in haskell functions can close over free variables
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18:38:55	<EvanR>	let <equations> in <expr>
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18:39:41	<blomberg>	yushyin: so they can close over any variable, even without let , so the function is accepting other inputs apart from the main body , so it's not fully closed? but i admit it still has no side effects as the external value is constant
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18:40:25	<blomberg>	EvanR: without let
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18:40:39	<blomberg>	why are you so excited about let
18:40:42	<blomberg>	it's fucked up
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18:41:24	<institor>	@hoogle put
18:41:25	<lambdabot>	Data.ByteString.Builder.Internal put :: (forall r . (a -> BuildStep r) -> BuildStep r) -> Put a
18:41:25	<lambdabot>	Control.Monad.Trans.RWS.CPS put :: Monad m => s -> RWST r w s m ()
18:41:25	<lambdabot>	Control.Monad.Trans.RWS.Lazy put :: (Monoid w, Monad m) => s -> RWST r w s m ()
18:42:42	<probie>	blomberg: What are you actually trying to do?
18:43:18	<institor>	% runStateT (put 42 >> get >>= (\x -> liftIO $ print x)) 0
18:43:18	<yahb2>	<interactive>:31:1: error: ; Variable not in scope: runStateT :: m0 b0 -> t1 -> t ; ; <interactive>:31:12: error: ; Variable not in scope: put :: t0 -> m0 a1 ; ; <interactive>:31:22: erro...
18:43:21	<blomberg>	probie: can functions be closed in haskell, and not access outer scopes
18:43:23	<institor>	rip
18:43:51	<institor>	> runStateT (put 42 >> get >>= (\x -> liftIO $ print x)) 0
18:43:52	<lambdabot>	error:
18:43:52	<lambdabot>	• Ambiguous type variable ‘m0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M708524405107...
18:43:52	<lambdabot>	prevents the constraint ‘(Show
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18:44:10	<blomberg>	institor:please pm the bot lamdabot
18:44:23	<institor>	blomberg \| % x=5; f = y where y=x;print y; where is the error in my line
18:44:53	<blomberg>	/pm lambdabot and stop pasting here institor don't do that shit of monads i never asked monads i hate them
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18:45:02	<institor>	:32:12 blomberg \| oh god i already know haskell
18:45:02	<blomberg>	you even know it
18:45:25	<blomberg>	yes, but i hate monads and internal code of haskell
18:45:32	<institor>	hopeless
18:45:43	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> That was StateT, not monads
18:46:14	<probie>	blomberg: Not really. The closest you can get is likely sticking the function in a separate module
18:47:07	<blomberg>	okay that is what i wanted to know
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18:47:30	<blomberg>	so even without let ; they can access outer scopes
18:47:55	<yushyin>	sure, they will close over free variables
18:47:59	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> What do you think is so special about let?
18:48:28	<institor>	where is this bridged to
18:48:30	<institor>	matrix?
18:48:33	<geekosaur>	yes
18:48:34	<monochrom>	yeah matrix
18:48:40	<blomberg>	it's just a inner scope like functions and nothing else;but i don't know how haskell implement it
18:48:41	<institor>	hipsters
18:48:46	<geekosaur>	#haskell-irc:matrix.org
18:49:17	<blomberg>	yushyin:why you say "free" variables what are bound variables here ?
18:49:33	<blomberg>	it's that lambda calculus thing
18:49:40	<institor>	> (\x -> x) 42
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18:49:41	<lambdabot>	42
18:50:11	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> The local variables
18:50:24	<institor>	> (\x -> x) y
18:50:25	<lambdabot>	y
18:50:48	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> "bound" basically means defined
18:50:55	<blomberg>	haskellbridge: my nick is my <_auke> ??
18:51:19	<probie>	blomberg: what you can't do in Haskell is have a top-level statement like `print x`. You can do something like `main = print x`
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18:51:44	<probie>	blomberg: their nick is mauke - there are multiple users on that bridge
18:52:18	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> No, your nick is blomberg
18:54:06	<blomberg>	how can i do that what you did haskellbridge you are geekosaur ?
18:54:22	<blomberg>	which software you used
18:54:36	<geekosaur>	I'm not sure what you are asking?
18:55:04	<monochrom>	Space, the final delimiter.
18:55:23	<institor>	CAPTAIN'S LOG STARDATE 42069.69.69
18:55:38	<monochrom>	No, you mean:
18:55:53	<monochrom>	CAPTAIN S LOG STARDATE 42069 69 69
18:55:59	<geekosaur>	haskellbridge is a matterbridge (https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge), configured to bridge between multiple IRC channels <-> Matrix rooms
18:56:04	<monochrom>	Space, the final delimiter. Remeber?
18:56:09	<geekosaur>	this is just one of the bridges
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18:56:17	<institor>	i use the field separator character
18:56:34	<institor>	oh i guess it's actually "record separator"
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18:57:12	<yushyin>	blomberg: what is free depends on the context, in an expression like (\x -> x y) the y is free
18:57:49	<institor>	no, as cage the elephant said
18:58:01	<institor>	"there ain't nothing in this world for free"
18:58:38	<blomberg>	if inside function i x=2 but outside x=5 then what
18:58:50	<blomberg>	x is not function parameter
18:59:07	<monochrom>	I think you know enough Haskell to try it out yourself.
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18:59:38	<blomberg>	> x=5;f a b = x where x=1;
18:59:39	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’
18:59:45	<blomberg>	% x=5;f a b = x where x=1;
18:59:45	<yahb2>	<no output>
18:59:58	<blomberg>	the bot don't tell
19:00:08	<monochrom>	lambdabot is not perfect. You can run your own ghci.
19:00:14	<geekosaur>	you only defined it, you didn't run it
19:00:31	<blomberg>	> x=5;f a b = x where x=1; f 2 3;
19:00:33	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:2: error: parse error on input ‘=’
19:00:45	<blomberg>	what did i do wrong
19:00:55	<geekosaur>	> is lambdabot which only does expressions, % is yahb which is ghci
19:00:57	<lambdabot>	<hint>:1:41: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:00:57	<monochrom>	The choice of using lambdabot.
19:01:15	<blomberg>	% x=5;f a b = x where x=1; f 2 3;
19:01:15	<yahb2>	<interactive>:35:31: error: parse error on input ‘;’
19:02:10	<geekosaur>	okay, the problem there is that where uses layout so you need braces around the where part
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19:02:32	<geekosaur>	otherwise it does the wrong thing with the semicolon (expecting another local where binding)
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19:02:55	<geekosaur>	% x=5; f a b = x where {x = 1}; f 2 3;
19:02:55	<yahb2>	<interactive>:37:31: error: ; Parse error: module header, import declaration ; or top-level declaration expected.
19:03:00	<geekosaur>	% x=5; f a b = x where {x = 1}; f 2 3
19:03:00	<yahb2>	<interactive>:39:31: error: ; Parse error: module header, import declaration ; or top-level declaration expected.
19:03:26	<geekosaur>	mm, I think ghci does not handle that syntax, it's a bit hacky in pretending to be a top level
19:03:49	<[exa]>	the ; might belong into the braces
19:03:55	<geekosaur>	I can reproduce in a local ghci
19:04:18	<[exa]>	uh wait that's toplevels
19:04:39	<monochrom>	yahb2 is ghci, so if yahb2 says syntax error, so will ghci.
19:04:57	<monochrom>	lambdabot though is of course a little bit different.
19:05:10	<institor>	% :load System.Process
19:05:10	<yahb2>	<no location info>: error: ; module ‘System.Process’ cannot be found locally ; Failed, no modules loaded.
19:05:10	<blomberg>	geekosaur:i want to know whether it in local scopes if i reassign x will it work even thogh globally there is x
19:05:16	<institor>	% :load Control.Monad.State.Lazy
19:05:16	<yahb2>	<no location info>: error: ; module ‘Control.Monad.State.Lazy’ cannot be found locally ; Failed, no modules loaded.
19:05:34	<blomberg>	institor:you know i hates monads don't
19:05:34	<geekosaur>	why wouldn't it?
19:05:37	<monochrom>	You can't use :load on packaged modules.
19:06:04	<yushyin>	blomberg: monochrom suggested to try it out and see (locally)
19:06:14	<monochrom>	It's "import" or ":module +" for packages modules, ":load" for source-code-sitting-right-here modules.
19:06:14	<geekosaur>	> let x = 5; f a b = x where { x = 1 }; in f 2 3
19:06:16	<lambdabot>	1
19:06:25	<institor>	% :module +System.Process
19:06:25	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:06:28	<geekosaur>	> let x = 5; f a b = x where { x = 1 }; in f 2 3 + x
19:06:29	<lambdabot>	6
19:06:34	<institor>	% callCommand "mount"
19:06:35	<yahb2>	tmpfs on / type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=10240k,mode=755,uid=1000,gid=1001,inode64) ; /dev/sda1 on /bin type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /usr/bin type ext4 (r...
19:06:53	<blomberg>	geekosaur: y=x ; x is globally defined so it does y = 5; but what if i do x=x ; nnow it will be x=5 ; as it "substitutes" x that's the problem
19:06:59	<institor>	% callCommand "mount \| sed -n '3,$p'"
19:06:59	<yahb2>	/dev/sda1 on /usr/bin type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /usr/lib type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /usr/include type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relati...
19:07:19	<geekosaur>	blomberg, `x=x` will be recursively defined
19:07:26	<geekosaur>	> let x = x in x
19:07:28	<lambdabot>	*Exception: <<loop>>
19:07:52	<institor>	% let x = 42 in let x = 69 in print x
19:07:52	<yahb2>	69
19:08:07	×	arahael quits (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
19:08:09	<institor>	% callCommand "ls /etc"
19:08:09	<yahb2>	ls: cannot access '/etc': No such file or directory ; *** Exception: callCommand: ls /etc (exit 2): failed
19:08:23	<institor>	% callCommand "mount \| sed -n '6,$p'"
19:08:23	<yahb2>	/dev/sda1 on /lib type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /lib64 type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /home/tom/.ghcup/bin type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,rela...
19:08:38	<institor>	% callCommand "ls /home/tom"
19:08:39	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:08:39	→	arahael joins (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
19:08:41	<yushyin>	can we stop this yahb2 spam? oO
19:08:47	<blomberg>	no no but it does a textual replacement in expressions, so y=x+1 ... and so on
19:09:06	<institor>	% let x = 42 in let x = x + 2 in print x
19:09:06	<blomberg>	since x is not a function at the RHS but an expression
19:09:08	<yahb2>	<timeout>
19:09:12	<institor>	heh
19:10:58	<institor>	% callCommand "mount \| sed -n '9,$p'"
19:10:58	<yahb2>	<interactive>:5:1: error: ; Variable not in scope: callCommand :: String -> t
19:11:05	<institor>	% :module +System.Process
19:11:05	<yahb2>	<no output>
19:11:07	<institor>	% callCommand "mount \| sed -n '9,$p'"
19:11:07	<yahb2>	/dev/sda1 on /home/tom/.ghcup/ghc type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /home/tom/.ghcup/cache type ext4 (ro,nosuid,nodev,relatime,discard) ; /dev/sda1 on /workdir type ext4 (...
19:11:14	<monochrom>	institor: You should do those in PM.
19:12:53	<geekosaur>	institor: /query yahb2
19:13:10	→	tromp joins (~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl)
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19:13:33	<[exa]>	segfaultfizzbuzz: LLMs are good for languages, not for programs :D
19:14:10	<monochrom>	That doesn't matter in the long run, based on experience with spreadsheets.
19:14:56	<[exa]>	rofl
19:15:06	<monochrom>	Spreadsheets are good for lots of numbers and arithmetic on them. Look how people actually use it for everything else ranging from databases to programming.
19:15:06	<mauke>	are they good for languages?
19:15:19	→	hays joins (rootvegeta@fsf/member/hays)
19:16:17	<monochrom>	Before you know it, people will ignore you when you say "LLMs are good for languages, not for truth and fact-checking".
19:16:42	<geekosaur>	they aloready do
19:16:50	<blomberg>	chatGPT is offtopic i have a serious question about recursion
19:17:01	<mauke>	better ask to ask, first
19:17:10	<mauke>	</sarcasm>
19:17:52	<blomberg>	x=5; f a b = x where x=x+1 ; versus
19:18:01	<blomberg>	x=5; f a b = y where y=x+1
19:18:29	<blomberg>	x=5; f a b = x where x=1
19:18:55	<mauke>	it's the first one
19:18:59	<blomberg>	now in these 3 situations in all of them it should behave like an expression,
19:19:00	<[exa]>	blomberg: in the first case the definition x=5 is neglected; it is equivalent to `z=5; f a b = x where x=x+1`
19:19:20	<mauke>	none of those are expressions, so I'm not sure what "it" is
19:19:24	<[exa]>	blomberg: local definitions shadow everything including their own contents
19:19:56	<monochrom>	Where is the recursion?
19:20:03	<blomberg>	wow that's dope monochrom x=x+1
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19:21:05	<blomberg>	[exa]: so x=x+1 ; the LHS is equiv to a function not a variable
19:21:22	<blomberg>	but in other cases it was a variable,?
19:21:25	<[exa]>	blomberg: these are the same, both are values
19:21:28	→	nate2 joins (~nate@c-98-45-169-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
19:21:56	<mauke>	"a function not a variable" is a category error
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19:22:40	<institor>	(\f -> f 42) (+ 2)
19:22:45	<institor>	% (\f -> f 42) (+ 2)
19:22:45	<yahb2>	44
19:22:48	<blomberg>	but y=x+1 here x is a substituted value, in x=x+1 => x=5+1 ; you just do "text" replacement
19:23:23	<blomberg>	[exa]:if the RHS of x=x+1 is a value then it will do substitution x=5+1
19:23:40	<mauke>	I don't know of any Haskell implementation that does text replacement
19:23:45	<integral>	if you're doing text replacement, they you need to know that sometimes you have to rename variables
19:23:47	<mauke>	functions are values
19:23:49	<yushyin>	whatever this 'text' replacment is, it is not the semantic of the haskell language
19:23:52	<blomberg>	the x is "calling it's previous definition as a function"
19:24:05	<blomberg>	that function call is occuring ; so x is a function!!
19:24:11	<probie>	No, because the `x` that is referred to on the LHS in `x=x+1` is the one you're currently defining (i.e the one on the RHS), not one in an outer scope. Bindings in Haskell are recursive, there is no separate `letrec`
19:24:14	<[exa]>	blomberg: unevaluated values are values too
19:24:51	<erisco>	blomberg, sounds like you're working with some Haskell code?
19:24:53	<blomberg>	integral: you are right
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19:25:21	<probie>	> let ones = 1:ones in take 10 ones
19:25:23	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
19:25:26	→	danza__ joins (~francesco@151.44.164.112)
19:25:29	<blomberg>	but it's scope is outer; integral look at previous conversation, so it wasn't predefined in the local scope
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19:26:13	<blomberg>	probie: ones is a function not a variable
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19:27:16	<probie>	blomberg: It's not a function. It's a (lifted) value
19:27:27	<blomberg>	the actual reason i got it; it's because of reassignment as integral said, it looks like that so it's made a functional call
19:27:31	<monochrom>	Can we disagree on a more important question instead?
19:28:11	<integral>	I don't think what I said was very relevant
19:28:30	<blomberg>	integral what's your take on it
19:28:45	<blomberg>	it looked like a reassignment hence the issue
19:29:09	<mauke>	thank god you already know haskell so we don't have to argue over basics
19:29:20	<blomberg>	but x=10 ; too looks like reassignment and that is surprisingly not prohibited
19:29:21	×	danza__ quits (~francesco@151.44.164.112) (Remote host closed the connection)
19:29:31	<probie>	blomberg: is x a function in `x = 1 + 2`?
19:29:35	<yushyin>	it's not reassignment, lol
19:29:45	→	danza__ joins (~francesco@151.44.164.112)
19:29:57	<blomberg>	mauke:? is that sarcasam or you just saying that i know
19:29:57	<erisco>	blomberg, what code were you working on that lead you to join #haskell? I'd like to take a look at it
19:30:08	<mauke>	blomberg: heavy sarcasm
19:30:42	<monochrom>	"fundamentals of FP"
19:31:00	<integral>	variable binding isn't much like assignment at all, imho
19:31:01	<institor>	:28:12 institor \| blomberg: i recommend reading the book "Learn You a Haskell"
19:31:03	<institor>	:28:35 institor \| speaking of fundamentals...
19:31:05	<monochrom>	There is a reason I brought up "armchair philosophers" a while ago.
19:31:09	×	arahael quits (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
19:32:06	<institor>	wow that was an hour ago
19:32:08	<institor>	time to go
19:34:19	<blomberg>	yushyin: x is not a function in `x = 1 + 2`
19:34:54	<blomberg>	but if something does recursion like in `x = x + 1` instead all i get is heavy sarcasm from monochrom
19:35:09	×	segfaultfizzbuzz quits (~segfaultf@12.172.217.142) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
19:35:10	<blomberg>	monochrom: is a bad man
19:36:22	<blomberg>	yushyin: integral [exa] if something does recursion isn't it a function
19:36:26	<yushyin>	the `x` in `x = x + 1` is `x = x + 1` but it doesn't have the type of a function
19:36:43	<[exa]>	blomberg: no
19:37:05	<[exa]>	blomberg: you never saw recursive values in python?
19:37:27	<blomberg>	[exa]:i have ?? only function do those in python
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19:37:54	<mauke>	> let { ones = 1 : ones } in ones -- as seen before. this is a list, not a function
19:37:55	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
19:37:56	<[exa]>	blomberg: ok and why is that?
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19:38:14	<blomberg>	then what is the type in x=x+1
19:38:26	<mauke>	Int
19:38:30	<blomberg>	what determines a function type in haskell
19:38:48	<geekosaur>	having parameters
19:38:54	<blomberg>	right
19:39:29	<geekosaur>	in the case of `x=x+11`, the type is resolved as Integer because of the `+1` and type defaulting
19:39:37	<blomberg>	that's what i was thinking but it's just in haskell, x=x+1 undergoes recursion so outside haskell it's a function... using logic , it's a language thing
19:39:57	<mauke>	I don't know any language where 'x=x+1' is a function
19:41:02	<blomberg>	mauke: your list example was good
19:41:20	<[exa]>	blomberg: what I wanted to say, in python the values are super restricted so you need recursion. In haskell the values can recurse themselves without being actual functions. The intermediate step (something that behaves like a function but is already parameterless value) is called a thunk
19:41:20	<blomberg>	ones was a list of 1,1, so yeah
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19:41:38	<[exa]>	blomberg: suggest googling the 'thunk' concept, I think wiki has a good article on that
19:41:45	<blomberg>	[exa]: great point
19:41:47	<mauke>	don't need thunks for recursive data
19:42:04	<blomberg>	it's like BNF grammar recursion
19:42:22	<mauke>	const struct node x = { 42, &x }; // is a perfectly cromulent C definition
19:42:41	<EvanR>	hey look, OOP
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19:42:54	<institor>	don't insult C like that
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19:43:45	<monochrom>	don't insult OOP like that >:)
19:44:17	<mauke>	don't.
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19:44:26	<geekosaur>	let's insult both at once? I give you Xt
19:45:06	<[exa]>	blomberg: other view, to have something "unevaluated" in python you need a parameterless function to keep it from evaluating until you call it. In haskell, parameterless function are indistinguishable from values, and because of laziness you don't hit the problem with having to keep it explicitly unevaluated.
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19:45:56	<[exa]>	blomberg: apart of that, functions are values too, and to keep the dictionary useful people call "values that can accept parameters" functions
19:46:11	<[exa]>	blomberg: please try to use this ^ haskell naming in #haskell channel :]
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20:02:52	<blomberg>	x \|x<2=1;\|otherwise = 2; this is another case in which it's returning without arguments and "looks" superficially like a function
20:03:15	<mauke>	that ; is technically wrong
20:03:24	<mauke>	but yes
20:04:06	<[exa]>	blomberg: yeah, a thunk which evaluates forever
20:04:52	<blomberg>	this one doesn't
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20:05:16	<[exa]>	blomberg: how come?
20:05:29	<mauke>	because neither 1 nor 2 loops
20:05:35	<mauke>	er
20:05:38	×	arahael quits (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
20:05:39	<mauke>	no, I'm wrong
20:05:40	<blomberg>	it does
20:05:49	<mauke>	sorry, I misread the guard
20:05:56	<blomberg>	mauke:i realized before you... this show i know haskell
20:06:06	<yushyin>	wow
20:06:07	<monochrom>	I once wrote some code like that and it took me 5 minutes to realize why it hanged.
20:06:08	geekosaur	eyeroll
20:06:17	<[exa]>	haskell = learned
20:06:18	<[exa]>	next!
20:06:20	<mauke>	You rolled a 3.
20:06:36	<EvanR>	raises hand why does it loop what is this shenanigan
20:06:56	<mauke>	EvanR: let x = if x < 2 then 1 else 2
20:07:19	<EvanR>	oh
20:07:50	<monochrom>	OK I'm in good company. :)
20:07:53	<EvanR>	x=1 and x=2 both solve it!
20:08:34	<EvanR>	haskell is broken
20:08:39	<mauke>	UP TACK
20:08:57	<EvanR>	that too
20:09:42	<monochrom>	Actually Ralf Hinze noticed and pointed out the connection between non-termination and having more than one solutions.
20:09:57	×	jackneill__ quits (~Jackneill@20014C4E1E101A00392465011B960A73.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
20:10:30	<geekosaur>	"the following sentence is true. the preceding sentence is false."
20:12:09	→	arahael joins (~arahael@119-18-1-27.771201.syd.nbn.aussiebb.net)
20:13:07	<blomberg>	x=5; f a b = (g x) ; x=1 ; --after calling (g x) function can i assign x via some haskell syntax and hopefully get an error
20:13:50	<blomberg>	the above code is a semantic wish to first call g x as a parameter and then assign x
20:14:28	<mauke>	"can i assign" <- no
20:14:33	<mauke>	this is haskell
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20:15:12	<EvanR>	in before blomberg does exactly that in GHCI proving you all wrong!
20:15:17	<mauke>	heh
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20:15:21	<geekosaur>	that looks like something which ghci would accept because it shadows the old `x`, but a compiled program would reject as a redefinition
20:15:29	<mauke>	EvanR: can't be, they hate monads
20:15:30	<mauke>	and let
20:15:38	<geekosaur>	% :set -Werror=name-shadowing
20:15:38	<yahb2>	<no output>
20:16:05	<EvanR>	one weird trick to reassign variables, haskell will hate this
20:16:05	<geekosaur>	% g x = x + 1
20:16:05	<yahb2>	<no output>
20:16:13	→	cafkafk_ joins (~cafkafk@fsf/member/cafkafk)
20:16:16	<geekosaur>	% x=5; f a b = (g x) ; x=1
20:16:16	<yahb2>	<interactive>:41:22: error: ; Multiple declarations of ‘x’ ; Declared at: <interactive>:41:1 ; <interactive>:41:22
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20:17:09	<int-e>	% x \| x <- x = x where x = 42
20:17:09	<yahb2>	<interactive>:43:5: error: [-Wname-shadowing, -Werror=name-shadowing] ; This binding for ‘x’ shadows the existing binding ; bound at <interactive>:43:22 ; ; <interactive>:43:22: error: [...
20:17:29	<mauke>	; ;
20:18:16	<geekosaur>	right, not on the same line though (re my getting an actual error)
20:18:24	<geekosaur>	ghci is a bit weird
20:18:39	<geekosaur>	:set -wname-binding
20:18:44	<geekosaur>	% :set -wname-binding
20:18:44	<yahb2>	Some flags have not been recognized: -wname-binding
20:18:52	<geekosaur>	% :set -Wno-name-binding
20:18:52	<yahb2>	<no location info>: warning: [-Wunrecognised-warning-flags] ; unrecognised warning flag: -Wno-name-binding
20:19:03	<geekosaur>	% :set -wname-shadowinging
20:19:04	<yahb2>	Some flags have not been recognized: -wname-shadowinging
20:19:11	<geekosaur>	damn I'm doing good today
20:19:14	<geekosaur>	% :set -wname-shadowing
20:19:14	<yahb2>	Some flags have not been recognized: -wname-shadowing
20:19:18	<blomberg>	x=5; f a b = (g x) ; x=1; -- geekosaur is x=1 outside the function scope.. then x=1 should give an error
20:19:22	<geekosaur>	% :set -Wno-name-shadowing
20:19:23	<yahb2>	<no output>
20:19:28	<monochrom>	Is it -W instead of -w ?
20:19:34	<monochrom>	heh ok
20:20:01	<geekosaur>	I was thinking like gcc where -W makes it a warning and -w makes it not a warning, but ghc uses -Wno- instead
20:20:14	<geekosaur>	just trying to save a couple characters
20:21:22	<blomberg>	if inside a function i call (g x) can i then reassign x as it was the first assignment in the local scope
20:21:54	<geekosaur>	but once you are outside the function you are back in the global scope, where x is already defined so you get an error
20:22:09	<geekosaur>	[09 20:16:16] <yahb2> <interactive>:41:22: error: ; Multiple declarations of ‘x’ ; Declared at: <interactive>:41:1 ; <interactive>:41:22
20:22:15	<mauke>	"can i then reassign" <- no, this is haskell
20:22:46	<blomberg>	mauke:inside the function after feeding x as a parameter to g which is some other function
20:22:50	<geekosaur>	if you do it on multiple lines, though, it "works" because the new "x" shadows the old one. but "f" still uses the value that was in scope at the time
20:22:58	<EvanR>	> let x = 4 in let x = 5 in x
20:22:59	<lambdabot>	5
20:23:04	<blomberg>	it is language dependent behaviour
20:23:15	<mauke>	blomberg: we don't have assignment
20:23:18	<mauke>	except in class
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20:30:42	<blomberg>	mauke: then what do you have if not assignment
20:31:02	<mauke>	binding
20:31:53	<geekosaur>	which is read-only, unlike assignment: once bound, forever it has that value
20:32:30	<Rembane>	This makes it possible to use equational reasoning which is quite useful.
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20:35:23	<EvanR>	x = 4 is an equation
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20:35:48	<EvanR>	unlike in C
20:36:06	<mauke>	still directional, though. can't say 4 = x
20:36:21	<EvanR>	> let 4 = 5 in 4
20:36:22	<lambdabot>	4
20:36:30	<EvanR>	you're right
20:36:35	<EvanR>	I think
20:36:43	<mauke>	> let 4 = x in x
20:36:44	<lambdabot>	x
20:36:52	<EvanR>	makes sense
20:37:14	<EvanR>	> let 4 = 4 in 4
20:37:15	<lambdabot>	4
20:37:20	<EvanR>	:thumbsup:
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20:39:09	<blomberg>	so inside a function if i make another functional call (g x) but use x as a parameter and then bind x=1; will it work
20:39:34	<EvanR>	depends on what you mean by "and then"
20:39:36	<integral>	"and then"?
20:39:51	<blomberg>	use where or some trick
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20:40:02	<EvanR>	it's also trivially testable by you
20:40:16	<blomberg>	but i don't have ghci
20:40:24	<mauke>	there's online REPLs
20:40:43	<monochrom>	There is https://play.haskell.org/
20:40:48	<mauke>	https://tio.run/#haskell
20:40:48	<blomberg>	ahh
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20:42:25	<EvanR>	or private message lambdabot
20:42:32	<blomberg>	so functional syntax doesn't allow binding after a nested functional call like inside f there is g
20:42:57	<blomberg>	and after (g x) x=1
20:43:02	<EvanR>	> sqrt(let x = sqrt 2 in x)
20:43:03	<lambdabot>	1.189207115002721
20:43:26	<blomberg>	via some trick using where
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20:45:00	<blomberg>	EvanR:inside function f ; not (f ( ...)) not inside arguments
20:45:07	<blomberg>	> sqrt(2)
20:45:09	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:45:25	<blomberg>	why is this prefix notation working
20:45:31	<mauke>	> (sqrt)2
20:45:32	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:45:44	<blomberg>	ok
20:45:46	<mauke>	the parentheses are redundant but harmless
20:46:20	<int-e>	> sqrt 2 -- you have this, with extra (redundant) parentheses
20:46:21	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:46:23	<mauke>	the syntax for function application is putting two terms next to each other
20:46:32	<int-e>	> ((sqrt) (2))
20:46:34	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:46:35	int-e	shrugs
20:47:38	<monochrom>	> sqrt$2
20:47:39	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:47:49	<monochrom>	"spreadsheet syntax"
20:48:10	<integral>	> sqrt `id` 2
20:48:11	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:48:13	<int-e>	> sqrt (1 + 1) -- I'd actually never omit this space except for silly things (obfuscation and golfing)
20:48:18	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:49:01	<monochrom>	You can save some space and be like sqrt`id`2, too
20:49:14	<int-e>	To avoid the overlap with the f(x,y,z) function application syntax in various other languages that Haskell doesn't have.
20:49:17	<mauke>	> sqrt1+1
20:49:18	<monochrom>	One more example:
20:49:18	<lambdabot>	1.4142135623730951
20:49:25	<monochrom>	> length"abc"
20:49:26	<lambdabot>	3
20:49:37	<EvanR>	ok that missing space really derailed everything thanks blomberg
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20:50:10	<mauke>	can't be derailed if you never were on track.jpg
20:50:32	<int-e>	is this why cars are so popular
20:50:33	<monochrom>	What is there to derail?
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20:51:46	<blomberg>	what is there to thank, unless it's a joke
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20:55:02	<blomberg>	EvanR: did you mean derail the conversation ?
20:55:31	<blomberg>	i am always on track
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20:59:38	<blomberg>	x=5;f a b = z+x where z=(g x) x=1 ; -- can i do that
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21:00:38	<blomberg>	x=5;f a b = z+x where x=1 z=(g x) ; -- order reversed
21:01:09	<EvanR>	try it and see
21:01:19	<mauke>	.code.tio.hs:4:6: error: Variable not in scope: g
21:01:22	<blomberg>	i mean is it functional the first one
21:01:26	<blomberg>	conceptually
21:01:33	<mauke>	blomberg: https://tio.run/##y0gszk7Nyfn/v8LWlCtNIVEhScFWoUq7gktBoTwjtSgVSFfZaqQrVGgCWRW2hlxcuYmZeUA1RaklpUV5Chqa//8DAA
21:01:39	<blomberg>	since i called x as a parameter but didn't assign it
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21:02:01	<EvanR>	your code doesn't even compile
21:02:12	<EvanR>	fix it and try again
21:04:14	<blomberg>	g a = a; x=5;f a b = z+x where z=(g x) x=1 -- [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( .code.tio.hs, .code.tio.o )
21:04:14	×	artem quits (~artem@73.145.240.162) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:04:16	<blomberg>	Linking .bin.tio ...
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21:04:51	<blomberg>	main = return () --what's that
21:04:57	<blomberg>	is it repl specific
21:05:11	<mauke>	that's the main program
21:05:17	<geekosaur>	it's because tio is not actually a repl, it rquires a program
21:05:19	<mauke>	tio isn't a repl
21:05:27	<blomberg>	so let me guess, it loops to main start of the file
21:05:33	<mauke>	wat
21:05:35	<geekosaur>	so if you're just testing to see if something compiles you must supply a dummy program that does nothing
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21:07:56	<blomberg>	https://tio.run/##DYqxDoAgDAX3fsUbIU5qHPsxmBQwIgNqbPh57HR3yeVwn1LKGAkBjEDKG0Xz3apPSsCXpYmxs0tQb6Y8k4tYsHq6wlFtbfK8rcL5MX4
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21:08:44	<mauke>	you can't just put a random expression in a file like that
21:08:52	<mauke>	a haskell file is a module. a module is a sequence of declarations
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21:09:15	<blomberg>	Parse error: module header, import declaration ; -- i didn't import anything
21:09:34	<mauke>	exactly
21:09:42	<mauke>	if you did, it wouldn't be an error
21:10:02	<blomberg>	??
21:10:26	<mauke>	the full message reads: "module header, import declaration or top-level declaration expected."
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21:10:46	<blomberg>	what's the fix
21:10:46	<mauke>	meaning, you can only put those three things at the top level of a module
21:10:53	<mauke>	depends on what you were trying to do
21:11:03	<geekosaur>	I thought you claimed to know Haskell
21:11:05	<blomberg>	it's called not helping
21:11:17	<blomberg>	ofc i know everything except fixing it
21:11:30	<mauke>	oh, then you won't need my help
21:11:35	<mauke>	and here I almost sent you https://tio.run/##DYo7CoAwEAX7PcUrDVYqlnuYFfLDGCQKLrl83GpmYJI8py9ljAgBQ0h5p2B@WPVZCfiSb97YeYpQZ6a8EF2Sqz13y/XFFLBic2P8
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21:15:16	<blomberg>	thx for your
21:15:18	<blomberg>	main = print (f 2 3)
21:15:46	<blomberg>	isn't that repl code or in real haskell file too it works
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21:16:50	<EvanR>	a cool guy move is to import your module into ghci then type: main
21:16:54	<EvanR>	to run your program from ghci
21:17:08	<EvanR>	redefining and shadowing main stops you from doing that
21:17:49	<EvanR>	don't be uncool
21:18:19	<blomberg>	hey i can return z+x but why not the list [z x]
21:18:33	<blomberg>	https://tio.run/##y0gszk7Nyfn/P10hUcFWIZGrwtbUgCsNyEkCcqOrFCpiuRQUyjNSi1KBdJWtRrpCha6RgSaQU2FraMzFlZuYmQdUWVCUmVeioJGmYKRgrPn/PwA
21:18:55	<EvanR>	[z,x]
21:19:01	<EvanR>	[1,2,3,4]
21:19:15	<EvanR>	z x is function application
21:19:38	<blomberg>	ahh sorry i learnt haskell perfectly with your answer
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21:25:00	<blomberg>	the crazy part in haskell is i can do z=(g x) first then x=13 and it works as if order doesn't matter
21:25:04	<blomberg>	that's like nuts
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21:25:49	<blomberg>	it's like it's running simultaneously
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21:27:59	<blomberg>	where does it simultaneously
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21:28:40	<geekosaur>	order does not in fact matter; bindings are solved as a group
21:28:42	<blomberg>	i was expect x to be fetched from the outer scope
21:28:50	<geekosaur>	that never happens
21:29:00	<blomberg>	is it a functional thing that bindings are nuts
21:29:06	<blomberg>	and now it's fucked
21:29:30	<blomberg>	geekosaur: it happens if no bindings for x exist
21:29:47	<geekosaur>	a binding exists, it just textually follows
21:29:58	<geekosaur>	bindings are solved as a group, not in some kind of order
21:29:59	<EvanR>	defining stuff out of order is a feature in many languages
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21:30:49	<blomberg>	could it be in order and be pure FP
21:31:25	<geekosaur>	you could write them in order, sure. the question is, what order would you use with mutually recursive functions/values?
21:31:48	<blomberg>	geekosaur: if a binding exists then that's a reassignment
21:31:57	<geekosaur>	at least one of them has to be used before being defined, if you process them in textual order
21:32:04	<geekosaur>	there is no reassignment
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21:33:52	<blomberg>	how could order of mutually recursive functions be different
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21:34:56	<geekosaur>	that's for you to answer (literally, it's what I asked you: "the question is, …")
21:35:28	<blomberg>	my code is not mutually recursive
21:35:34	<blomberg>	no idea what code you had in mind
21:36:10	<geekosaur>	I was explaining why haskell has no order in definitions
21:36:29	<geekosaur>	you could not write mutually recursive definitions if it did
21:36:52	<blomberg>	yes, i couldn't grasp and imagine it myself what you are saying
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21:37:36	<EvanR>	> let onezero = 1:zeroone; zeroone = 0:onezero in onezero
21:37:37	<lambdabot>	[1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0...
21:37:58	<EvanR>	> let onezero = 1:zeroone; zeroone = 0:onezero in zeroone
21:37:59	<lambdabot>	[0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1...
21:38:40	<geekosaur>	note thatthe above works because of (1) laziness (2) both `onezero` and `zeroone` produce a partial result before recursing
21:38:40	<EvanR>	> let onezero = 1:zeroone; zeroone = 0:onezero in zipWith (+) onezero zeroone
21:38:42	<lambdabot>	[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
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21:39:14	<int-e>	> iterate (1-) 0
21:39:16	<lambdabot>	[0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1...
21:39:31	<geekosaur>	this is the secret to productive self- or mutual recursion in Haskell
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21:39:56	<EvanR>	godammit geekosaur you told him the secret
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21:40:57	<EvanR>	and (3) you don't have to write the definitions in order, because here you can't
21:42:33	<blomberg>	but it's true only inside where outside it, how can i use x even before defined!!
21:43:08	<geekosaur>	you're still stuck on stuff having to be defined in order. did we not just tell you why that doesn't work?
21:43:15	<blomberg>	where z=(g x) x=13
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21:43:33	<blomberg>	imagine z=(g x); x=13
21:44:00	<EvanR>	javascript has the same thing, kind of
21:44:22	<EvanR>	you can define stuff later, after it's used
21:44:36	<geekosaur>	as long as it's defined in the same group of bindings
21:45:19	<geekosaur>	well, that's not true, in a haskell source file you can put something at the bottom and the thing using it at the top, the compiler sorts it out
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21:45:37	<geekosaur>	why should you the programmer have to care? let the compiler figure it out
21:45:43	<EvanR>	also many tutorials and explainers do the same thing. Talk about something before it's defined or explained
21:46:02	<EvanR>	sometimes saying "which will be covered in more detail below" or some such
21:46:16	<blomberg>	this is fucked it's making a fucking call before i even defined x
21:46:42	<EvanR>	your notion of time is defined by the orientation of your monitor?
21:46:48	<EvanR>	interesting
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21:47:34	<EvanR>	gaming rig time machine
21:49:26	<geekosaur>	there are very, very few things in haskell which require you to stick to some specific order
21:49:53	<geekosaur>	aside from things like template haskell where it's run while the source file is being read so only the stuff above the splice is known yet
21:50:17	<geekosaur>	but for most things the compiler reads the whole file and then figures out how it all fits together
21:50:35	<geekosaur>	the programmer should not have to do that busywork, that's what we have computers for 🙂
21:51:04	<EvanR>	blomberg, python and ruby are odd ones out here, because they equate definitions with running actual code to store references in things
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21:51:18	<EvanR>	most languages ...
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21:55:17	<geekosaur>	it's a distinction between "scripting languages" which evaluate as they go and "compiled languages" (not the best term, but the most common one here) which treat an entire source file as a group and can therefore build up pieces that are out of order
21:56:44	<institor>	javascript is compiled
21:56:49	<geekosaur>	("compiled languages" there is a bad term because there's also "interpreted" vs. "compiled", but there are interpreted languages which still work on a source-file-unit basis and compiled languages which nevertheless evaluate in source file order)
21:57:06	<EvanR>	also javascript definitions can be out of order
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21:57:17	<EvanR>	so not a contradiction!
21:57:30	<geekosaur>	it's all quite complicated how things like this interact
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21:57:40	<geekosaur>	and even then there are various exceptions 🙂
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21:59:18	<yushyin>	well, that was an interesting episode of #haskell
21:59:31	<geekosaur>	in particular, while haskell is generally compiled, there are two different ways to interpret it: with something like hugs or runghc, or ghci / ghc -e
21:59:32	<yushyin>	in a way
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22:01:40	<institor>	yushyin: yes special midnight horror edition
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22:07:20	<superryn>	exit
22:07:23	<superryn>	oops
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22:47:45	<EvanR>	Oh cool, for those who object to sqrt(2) in haskell, I just noticed you can do sqrt (2) in C
22:48:18	<geekosaur>	gnu style
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23:37:07	<segfaultfizzbuzz>	can i make a haskell which has no exceptions
23:39:18	<EvanR>	undefined is in the standard so I think not officially
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23:44:29	<geekosaur>	you can make a haskell which can't catch exceptions, though, as that's not in the standard
23:44:50	<geekosaur>	and indeed there have been two different exception handling systems in ghc
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23:46:08	<geekosaur>	the old one is completely gone at this point but you can find it documented in the standard libs for old ghc versions (say 6.6)
23:46:18	<geekosaur>	and of course they pinged out
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23:47:56	<goober>	I'm having trouble using aeson for a stack project: https://pastebin.com/raw/k0m6i0rc
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23:48:55	<goober>	i meant to say package.yaml there
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23:58:14	<geekosaur>	looks like aeson is using an old version of th-abstraction, because https://hackage.haskell.org/package/th-abstraction-0.6.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH-Datatype.html#t:DatatypeVariant shows TypeData as a constructor

All times are in UTC on 2023-09-09.