Logs on 2023-09-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:42:50	<Inst>	is it imperative that I handle all possible exceptions generated by a readFile action?
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00:48:29	<Inst>	probably it's just better to propagate IO errors via the IO exception type
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01:35:29	<monochrom>	It is imperative programming to handle exceptions. >:)
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01:43:19	<MelanieMalik>	dragons
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01:45:10	<monochrom>	https://www.vex.net/~trebla/photo/unorganized/dragon.jpg :)
01:45:52	<int-e>	:t interact
01:45:53	<lambdabot>	(String -> String) -> IO ()
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01:54:01	<Axman6>	Anyone have a good reference for how to implement showsPrec for a fairly standard numerical expression ADT?
01:55:40	<Axman6>	data type is: data E = Num Int \| Var VarName \| Index \| Add E E \| Mul E E \| Sub E E \| Neg E, so very simple, with Index just mapping to the string "index"
01:58:49	<Axman6>	I guess I could steal a lot of that from simple-reflect
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02:05:29	<int-e>	Axman6: FWIW, the intended meaning of the precedence can be found in the Haskell report. https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/derived.html#sect10.4
02:07:08	<Axman6>	great, thanks
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02:12:00	<[Leary]>	`deriving Show` + -ddump-deriv?
02:13:34	<Axman6>	That might help if I used infix constructors I guess
02:17:06	<Axman6>	not sure how to handle negation - showsIndexExprCPP p (Neg e) = showString "-" . showsIndexExprCPP (p+1) e, which seems to work, but I have no idea if it's actually correct
02:17:24	<Axman6>	also p never decreases
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02:19:31	<Axman6>	definitely going to need to make a parser for this type at some point too -_-
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02:25:28	Axman6	could just make negate x = 0 - x ...
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02:43:40	<Inst>	Axman6: no harsh feelings with anything you might have said, if I say stupid things or behave stupidly, I should expect to get a negative response
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02:46:04	<Inst>	monochrom: well, the original plan was to cast every exception constructor that could be anticipated to my own type
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03:29:47	<jackdk>	Axman6: Best I know of is https://www.haskellforall.com/2020/11/pretty-print-syntax-trees-with-this-one.html ; if you find other good answers, do let me know
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03:56:22	<haskellbridge>	<tewuzij> Can I use brackets and commas than spaces?
03:58:40	<monochrom>	No.
04:03:44	<EvanR>	:t "(), "
04:03:45	<lambdabot>	[Char]
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04:04:08	<EvanR>	Yes
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04:08:57	<EvanR>	touché
04:13:23	<Axman6>	> map(show)([1..10]) -- you can however use spaces and brackets
04:13:24	<lambdabot>	["1","2","3","4","5","6","7","8","9","10"]
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04:52:47	<Inst>	okay, you know how bad Haskell via Pacman is?
04:52:54	<Inst>	it turns out that if you install agda, it corrupts GHCup
04:53:07	<Inst>	or rather, it corrupts Cabal, which for whatever reason all of a sudden wants to use the 9.0.2 that comes with agda
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05:07:56	<haskellbridge>	<maerwald> That sounds like a PATH issue
05:07:57	<Axman6>	Yeah don't use system package managers for Haskell, it's not worth it. I would guess the same's true for Idris
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05:28:56	<Inst>	Axman6 no, I mean, I know that pacman goes TERRIBLY with Haskell
05:29:18	<Inst>	but Agda is a separate language, it just happens to use Haskell as a compiler
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07:43:18	<Inst>	btw tomssmeding, any suggestions for what to do next?
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07:43:30	<Inst>	My lib is hot garbage, every time I look at it, I get disgusted because I feel like the architecture is terrible
07:43:35	<tomsmeding>	using ghc from pacman is quite possible, you "just" have to pass -dynamic to ghc always iirc
07:43:46	<Inst>	I just cabal installed and called it a day
07:43:49	<tomsmeding>	but you have to choose between arch's ghc and pacman's ghc, otherwise you'll get confused
07:44:06	<tomsmeding>	afaiu the system can handle two simultaneously installed ghc's just fine, given the correct PATH setup
07:44:14	<Inst>	should I try to publish my hot garbage lib to hackage? The name literally says "alpha" though
07:44:41	<tomsmeding>	put it on github, add an entry to the haskell weekly news, and wait for feedback
07:45:16	<Inst>	hmmm, okay, and I can use cabal to link to the github package for my other project that I need
07:45:42	<tomsmeding>	yeah
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07:45:50	<tomsmeding>	cabal.project
07:46:00	<schweers>	Hi, I have a (hopefully) quick question: I have a new stack project and I want to use HDBC and HDBC-postgresql. Adding HDBC to `package.yaml` works fine and I can `import HDBC` in my sources. Yet I have no idea how to add HDBC-postgresql. According to the user guide I need `extra-deps`, but this doesn’t work. Stack complains that the field `S.extra-deps` is unknown. For what it’s worth, I installed everything
07:46:00	<schweers>	using `ghcup`.
07:47:37	<tomsmeding>	schweers: post your full package.yaml and stack.yaml?
07:47:39	<tomsmeding>	@where paste
07:47:39	<lambdabot>	Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
07:48:22	<schweers>	sure: package.yaml: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vduFAqeu
07:48:49	<schweers>	stack.yaml: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/EUygkp5U
07:49:33	<tomsmeding>	schweers: try putting the 'extra-deps: - ...' block in stack.yaml instead
07:49:36	<tomsmeding>	I believe it goes there
07:49:37	<schweers>	Unless I made a mistake, stack.yaml should still be the the original.
07:49:51	<schweers>	tomsmeding: I’ll try, give me a sec
07:50:02	<tomsmeding>	schweers: I think you made a mistake _because_ it's still the original ;)
07:50:46	<schweers>	I feel really stupid right now. I’m sure that I tried that as well, but only got complaints from stack. Now it works. Thank you so much!
07:50:59	<tomsmeding>	glad it worked :)
07:51:49	<schweers>	So am I!
07:52:10	<Inst>	i'm wondering though, is a self-hosting installer for Haskell a good or bad idea?
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07:52:22	<schweers>	On a related note: is HDBC-postgres the/a recommended library to use to connect to a Postgres Database?
07:52:29	<Inst>	erm, installer framework, rather
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11:33:23	<dminuoso>	Hi. Im a bit at a loss. Im fiddling around with nano-cryptr, which does foreign import ccall safe "crypt_r" crypt_r :: CString-> CString -> Ptr CDOpaque -> IO CString
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11:33:55	<dminuoso>	However, Im on macOS and I cant quite figure out what macho objects this is resolved from ultimately
11:34:13	<dminuoso>	i.e. how can I figure out which library this is resolved from?
11:36:10	<jackdk>	schweers: I like hasql. If you need a big, heavy, type-safe hammer, opaleye is awesome but has more of a learning curve. Unsure of others (rel8, selda, etc). Never got my head around beam. If you want something really simple, postgresql-simple is that.
11:38:02	<dminuoso>	postgresql-simple has a rather questional "self-made" query parameter interpolation logic, sadly, however.
11:38:17	<dminuoso>	Which is a real bummer considering libpq has first class support for this.
11:38:50	<haskellbridge>	<mauke> safeErce :: (a ~ b) => b -> a
11:38:53	<dminuoso>	hasql gets this one right, and it uses binary de/serialization too (postgresql-simple only uses text encoding). for various workloads that makes a tremendous performance difference
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11:45:32	<schweers>	jackdk: Thanks, I’ll have a look at those, especially opaleye.
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11:49:30	<jackdk>	yeah I like hasql's use of the binary protocol, as well as its ability to annotate query strings with types denoting their parameters. That's why I'd say opaleye pays off if you really need the safety and the ability to stitch queries together
11:50:29	<danse-nr3>	cannot hasql do that? Seems quite a common use case
11:51:18	<danse-nr3>	but from what you say it seems that hasql is less type-safe, that is more interesting
11:51:29	<dminuoso>	danse-nr3: No, hasql is not about query building.
11:51:55	<dminuoso>	It just gives you some tools to stich sort of parameter decoder/encoder together with queries.
11:52:07	<danse-nr3>	i see, thanks dminuoso
11:52:28	<dminuoso>	well and a lot of small combinators, like TH syntax validation of your queries if you want it.
11:52:36	<jackdk>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hasql-1.6.3.2/docs/Hasql-Statement.html#t:Statement this constructor just wraps a ByteString with additional information and codecs, but you can't bolt statements together. I do like its use of contravariant functors
11:53:16	<dminuoso>	my biggest convern with postgresql-simple is really the "home-made" query interpolation, really.
11:54:15	<dminuoso>	I have more trust in libpq getting this right, than some convoluted haskell code that likely was written once, and never looked at by anyone else.
11:54:23	<dminuoso>	but thats just grumpy me.
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11:55:49	<danse-nr3>	i recall studying relational algebra, but i am not aware of any haskell lib that is based on it
11:56:32	<danse-nr3>	it would probably be more effort on top of building the compatibility layer
11:57:36	<danse-nr3>	but could aid a neat design
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12:11:06	<dminuoso>	There is a bunch of relational algebra libraries
12:11:09	<dminuoso>	https://github.com/agentm/project-m36 is one of them
12:11:47	<dminuoso>	Nowadays, I think I really just want a django-esque relational mapper but for Haskell. Without any type tricks.
12:11:50	<dminuoso>	Just pure, dumb, dynamic things.
12:14:26	<danse-nr3>	nice, i will check project-m36 out, thanks. Dynamic things? Having a type for a table is already a lot of type safety, to help with marshalling and querying
12:15:04	<danse-nr3>	i guess that does not need the less known type-level features
12:16:13	<danse-nr3>	anyways, for practicality, if i would write an app nowadays i would base it upon postgrest. Saves even more boilerplate
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12:19:15	<danse-nr3>	oh m36 is not a shim, it is a database
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13:13:52	<dminuoso>	danse-nr3: There are things where bolting on type system just adds so much inconvenience with a complicated and verbose, and slow, API, all at the cost of perceived stability.
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13:15:18	<dminuoso>	The reality is, when you build SQL queries, you very likely will try them out rapidly anyway, to see whether your SQL is expressed correctly.
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13:17:19	<danse-nr3>	maybe having a type for a table and using it for querying is more complex than i imagine
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13:20:37	<dminuoso>	Honestly, 'query :: Typeable a => Connection -> String -> IO [a]' is all I really want.
13:21:17	<dminuoso>	There could be some additional glue, where the database code is made aware of some kind of table <> type mapping, such that diagnotics work nicely
13:22:07	<dminuoso>	The sort of django model.py equivalent.
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13:42:18	<fendor>	dminuoso, I suppose you do want an API that enforces the usage of prepared statements
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14:54:04	<samlamamma>	Hi :-). Dumb question: Is the 'diamond problem' from multiple inheritance possible in Haskell's type classes? I'd think no, since we can't provide or override implementations in the type classes themselves.
14:54:59	<danse-nr3>	i agree
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14:55:40	<EvanR>	there's no inheritance so you can't have multiple inheritance
14:56:19	<samlamamma>	What about class (Foo f, Bar f) => Baz f where ... ?
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14:56:46	<samlamamma>	EvanR: What would you call that :-)?
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14:57:03	<EvanR>	additional constraint on a class
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14:57:14	<danse-nr3>	as you said samlamamma, implementations are not provided in the classes, so there is no inheritance
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14:57:45	<danse-nr3>	so many people quitting ... some network disruption going on ...
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14:57:52	<EvanR>	I detect a great split in the net
14:57:54	<samlamamma>	So it's not just me!
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14:58:08	<Square>	You can have implementation in classes iirc
14:58:12	<EvanR>	Like a 1000 connections were just suddenly reset by peer
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14:58:21	<samlamamma>	Alright, I accept what you're saying. That makes sense, inheritance is the borrowing of concrete implementation.
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14:59:04	<danse-nr3>	yeah there can be default implementations
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14:59:45	<EvanR>	in class (Foo f, Bar f) => Baz f where, you have to have those 3 classes for each f, it can't borrow
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14:59:51	<danse-nr3>	hey people that are joining again: what happened to your internet?
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15:00:29	<EvanR>	have to have instances*
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15:00:47	<samlamamma>	Yup, you guys are entirely correct!
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15:02:23	<EvanR>	samlamamma, a deep dive into type classes which is at least good for deleting any preconceived notions of how type classes work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIZxTQP1ifo
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15:03:55	<samlamamma>	Oooh you know what? I'm on vacation, I should print out some research papers
15:04:17	<geekosaur>	yeh, irccloud just reset for some reason
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15:36:02	<ddellacosta>	EvanR: I love that talk
15:36:51	<EvanR>	oops, the link description is Edward Kmett - Type Classes vs. the World (Boston Haskell)
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15:37:54	<ddellacosta>	it really helped me understand how distinctly modules solve certain problems and what tradeoffs that gives you
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15:46:30	<yin>	what's the canonical way of showing a record with indentation?
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15:46:49	<yin>	is there a showPretty somewhere?
15:47:03	<EvanR>	I like pretty-simple package
15:47:42	<yin>	EvanR: ty
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15:52:08	<EvanR>	I changed my mind. To make the output reasonable you need to pass outputOptionsCompact = True
15:52:16	<EvanR>	cool but not simple at all!
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15:55:15	<EvanR>	ddellacosta, and from that video I just learned ghci command :bro (:browse) xD
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16:13:06	<EvanR>	samlamamma, great screenshot from the talk which sums up what I was remembering about it in relation to the question about diamond dependencies, https://i.imgur.com/A0Xvs9a.png
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16:22:09	<ddellacosta>	EvanR: haha a useful shortcut indeed
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17:38:39	<Square>	I watched a video on mu-haskell the other day. Among other things they had disabled Existential Types, GADTs and recursion. Just curious why GADTs would be considered dubious?
17:39:57	<erisco>	Disabled recursion? Not sure what it is about but sounds like they're maybe trying to guarantee totality?
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17:48:05	<[exa]>	Square: any video or written note on the reasons there?
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17:48:54	<Square>	[exa], https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xe0ujcThxg
17:49:11	<EvanR>	disabled recursion in datatypes or code
17:49:38	<[exa]>	Square: time?
17:50:11	<EvanR>	I know higher order algebraic datatypes in HoTT can get pretty wild fast
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17:50:45	<[exa]>	oh what, the slides there literally say "but we didn't want to lose C++ and Excel interoperability"
17:52:14	<Square>	EvanR, Code is my understanding. "You rarely need recursion" he said. shrug =D
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17:52:20	<EvanR>	lol
17:52:22	<EvanR>	ok
17:53:22	<EvanR>	in a DSL you can rely on primitive combinators which do specific things like map and reduce, which were verified using recursion correctly (if at all)
17:53:34	<[exa]>	looks a bit like they wanted cobol
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18:02:20	<tomsmeding>	turn haskell into cobol?
18:02:22	tomsmeding	confused
18:02:35	<tomsmeding>	it's easier to turn python into cobol
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18:15:32	<haskellbridge>	<sm> Square: that looked good.. worth watching ?
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18:17:16	<Square>	sm: I watched a bit by accident. It's not so much about Haskell/FP but how they use it on Standard Chartered bank. More interesting than it sounds tbh. =D
18:17:31	<haskellbridge>	<sm> 👍️
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18:19:02	<EvanR>	but it's easier to turn comonad into cobalnad, the inevitable name of such a library implementing the cobol comonad
18:22:27	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: lowest sum of edit distances seems to be achieved for 'comon' -- 2 to comonad and 2 to cobol
18:22:44	<tomsmeding>	(assuming you allow mutations as edits)
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18:24:33	<EvanR>	c'monbal
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18:25:17	<tomsmeding>	adding 'bal' makes it funnier
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18:28:27	<EvanR>	shoot that's a misspell
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19:01:51	<monochrom>	You can recover existential types with GADT. So if someone seriously wants to ban existential types, they need to also ban GADT.
19:02:38	<monochrom>	Furthermore, you can recover all of the above plus most recursive types with RankNTypes. So the someone should have also banned that.
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19:03:42	<monochrom>	OK actually I haven't done recovering GADT from RankNTypes. But RankNTypes can definitely let you recover existentials and most recursive types.
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19:05:11	<monochrom>	Oh, recursion in code? You can use recursive data types to recover recursion in code.
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19:11:24	<dolio>	Isn't the point in Standard Chartered to write libraries used by people who are domain experts, but not Haskell experts?
19:12:02	<dolio>	So, you don't want to have to teach them about the rules for existential type or gadts and such.
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19:42:25	<exarkun>	When the ghc rts is multithreaded, when are the threads created?
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19:54:10	<monochrom>	My http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/ghc-conc-ffi.xhtml may not answer that question as stated, but may come close, or even answer the real question.
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19:56:12	<EvanR>	need the rts thread creation myth
19:56:26	<monochrom>	There is also https://github.com/takenobu-hs/haskell-ghc-illustrated which you should bookmark for future reference.
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19:59:23	<exarkun>	monochrom: nice, thanks
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20:13:46	<mokrates>	hi, I am currently reading "real world haskell" to get an intro, but I am already curious:
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20:17:15	<mokrates>	this data declaration: data Foo a b = a `Foo` b
20:17:17	→	natto joins (~natto@129.154.243.159)
20:17:40	<mokrates>	sorry: data Foo a b = a `Foo` b deriving Show
20:17:53	<mokrates>	a = 5 `Foo` 6
20:17:55	<mokrates>	a
20:18:00	<mokrates>	5 `Foo` 6
20:18:04	<mokrates>	ok, then
20:18:09	<mokrates>	b = Foo 5 6
20:18:11	<mokrates>	b
20:18:19	<mokrates>	-> 5 `Foo` 6
20:18:24	<mauke>	oh, it does that?
20:18:35	<mauke>	@let data Foo a b = a `Foo` b deriving Show
20:18:37	<lambdabot>	Defined.
20:18:40	<mokrates>	how does Show know the "fixity"? do Constructors even have a fixity?
20:18:40	<mauke>	> Foo 5 6
20:18:42	<lambdabot>	5 `Foo` 6
20:19:03	<mauke>	there's a default fixity for operators if you don't explicitly define one
20:19:17	<mokrates>	I didn't define any more than that
20:19:24	<mokrates>	as you see with the bot
20:19:42	<mokrates>	:i doesn't say anything either
20:20:04	<mokrates>	and does a constructor Foo count as a operator?
20:20:36	<shapr>	good afternoon?
20:20:47	<mokrates>	evening ;)
20:21:00	<shapr>	good evening mokrates
20:21:12	<mauke>	"Any operator lacking a fixity declaration is assumed to be infixl 9"
20:21:26	<mauke>	Foo doesn't, but `Foo` does
20:21:53	<mauke>	https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-820004.4.2
20:22:28	<mokrates>	thank you very much
20:22:41	<glguy>	there are two kinds of operators, symbols that aren't surrounded by ()s and identifiers that are surrounded by ``s
20:23:27	<mauke>	the standard library defines custom fixities for `div`, `mod`, `elem`, and others
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20:25:24	<mokrates>	interesting... but how would I see those? Where would a show display `div`, `mod` or `elem`?
20:25:52	<[exa]>	mokrates: re "how does show know fixity", there's showsPrec which should handle that
20:25:53	<mokrates>	ok, I am currently at a slow computer, I just check that page
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20:27:18	<[exa]>	actually I'm not really sure about what happens if you set the fixity after the Show instance is derived
20:27:25	<mauke>	you wouldn't see `div` or other functions from show
20:28:05	<mokrates>	aaah, I get it. the fixity declaration for `div` &al is just defining the precedence
20:28:07	<mauke>	but ':i elem' in ghc will tell you infix 4 `elem`
20:28:23	<mauke>	ghci doesn't show default fixities, though
20:28:39	<mokrates>	whereas my `Foo`-definition tagged some "this-is-infix" information on to the constructor
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20:29:11	<mauke>	well, 'deriving Show' is compiler magic
20:29:32	<mokrates>	Yeah, I was disappointed when I read that
20:29:39	<mauke>	the compiler has to generate an implementation of 'show' based on the type you wrote, and the compiler knows whether you used infix syntax for your data constructors
20:29:54	<mauke>	so it mimics that
20:30:12	<c_wraith>	well. it's magic, but it's not mysterious.
20:30:19	<mokrates>	I really am like on page 70 and didn't know any haskell like 2 weeks ago
20:30:25	<c_wraith>	It follows simple rules and generates code that you could write yourself
20:30:33	<mokrates>	(apart from, idk, that it can pattern match and stuff)
20:31:16	<mauke>	https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/deriving.html we do have more advanced magic, though
20:31:20	<mokrates>	The disappointing thing is that you can't define classes which can be derived (w/o using some compiler-dependent magic modules)
20:31:36	<mokrates>	(or is this old info?)
20:32:10	<mauke>	oh, and Template Haskell
20:32:22	<mokrates>	yeah, c'mon, slowly
20:32:34	<mauke>	which can generate instances as well (/me waves at lens)
20:32:37	<mokrates>	I mean: EVERY book starts with "ok, here's hello world!"
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20:32:49	<c_wraith>	It's sort of half true. You can use compiler extensions to get access to tools that let you get closer and closer to GHC's built-in behavior for deriving.
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20:33:06	<c_wraith>	But in the base language, the deriveable classes aren't something you can hook into
20:33:12	<mokrates>	real world haskell is like: "ok, we don't have any side effects. no really! we don't! hello world, and printing on the screen? chapter SEVEN"
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20:33:33	<mokrates>	(real world haskell -- the book)
20:33:47	<mauke>	main = putStr "Hello, world!\n" -- done
20:33:49	<c_wraith>	to be pedantic, IO isn't side effects. It's not something that happens incidentally on the side. It's a type specifically for describing effects.
20:34:04	<c_wraith>	I'm not sure how valuable that pedantry is
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20:34:11	<c_wraith>	But it's sort of defensible
20:34:11	<mokrates>	yeah yeah... I already know. But still. You guys are serious ;)
20:34:39	<mokrates>	I like pedantry
20:35:00	<mokrates>	And I already got a liiiittle bit of a, say, feeling for it
20:35:41	<mokrates>	like for continuations (which I still don't really get my head around)
20:36:03	<mokrates>	(did some lisp stuff, b/c you know: fun)
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20:36:51	<mokrates>	Did you know that common lisp doesn't have recursive types? I was as surprised as you are!
20:37:43	<mauke>	I didn't know CL had types in the first place
20:38:09	<mokrates>	It does. But it's weirdly tacked on
20:38:26	<mokrates>	(as everything is weirdly tacked together)
20:39:00	<mokrates>	... *tacked together weirdly (is better english, I think)
20:39:08	<mauke>	> sum [0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2] :: Rational -- I know CL can't do this one
20:39:09	<lambdabot>	1 % 1
20:39:22	<glguy>	afaik CL has "types" as much as Python has them
20:39:55	<mokrates>	per standard, yes, but sbcl actually does type inference
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20:41:28	<mokrates>	and compiles to really concise code. And you can declare them, and then, depending on what you declare, and what your compiler offers, can have them checked or just optimized for (if you just optimize and disobey, you get interesting segfaults)
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20:42:09	<mauke>	all I remember is "type declarations" that are actually promises to the compiler: "I swear this variable will only contain fixed-width integers, so please generate optimized code that produces garbage if this assumption is violated"
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20:42:56	<mokrates>	but with classes and generic methods it has to use types to choose the correct method, similar to haskell has to find the right 'null' in the []-type or the e.g. Maybe-type
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20:43:32	<mauke>	no, that's all runtime dispatch
20:43:40	<glguy>	It only makes sense to call those types when you don't have types otherwise, though. That's runtime value dispatch, not type dispatch
20:43:42	<mokrates>	mauke: sbcl will actually throw compiler errors at you if the inferred types don't match up
20:44:01	<glguy>	if sbcl some some extensions, that's not Common Lisp having it
20:44:21	<mauke>	some
20:44:22	<mokrates>	CL permits it.
20:44:31	<mauke>	yeah, by making it undefined behavior
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20:44:52	<mokrates>	yeah, a bit like pragmas in C but still in the standard
20:45:02	<mokrates>	which is CL weirdness
20:45:54	<mokrates>	mauke: is it all runtime dispatch in haskell? wouldn't that be slow if the type is known at compile time?
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20:46:51	<mokrates>	ok, "in haskell" is probably the wrong question: in GHC would be more appropriate. (In Hugs it's probably all runtime..., I would think)
20:47:22	<glguy>	Hugs isn't a compiler, so it can't talk about compile time
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20:47:29	<mauke>	ghc does resolve/inline class dictionaries at compile time when it can
20:47:39	<mokrates>	glguy: fair enough
20:48:20	<monochrom>	Using runghc to convert compile-time errors to run-time errors. >:D
20:48:25	<monochrom>	s/Using/Use/
20:48:26	<int-e>	but then it does an indirect jump for every unevaluated thunk
20:48:30	<mokrates>	as does sbcl with methods
20:48:32	<mauke>	there are places where that's not possible, like class-generic operations with separate compilation, or runtime-generated types
20:48:49	<mokrates>	monochrom: lol
20:48:50	<monochrom>	But the serious answer is this:
20:49:09	<mauke>	-fdefer-type-errors
20:49:17	<int-e>	(I'm not sure how much utility the notion of "dispatch" has in implementations of Haskell.)
20:49:25	<mokrates>	mauke: of course
20:49:32	<monochrom>	Static type means that "if True then False else 34" is rejected, even if "obviously" the 34 is irrelevant. Dynamic typing means that it is accepted.
20:50:17	<monochrom>	So for example, even runghc rejects that code, despite my joke.
20:50:28	<c_wraith>	monochrom: I'm pretty sure you can make that one valid with sufficiently complex dependent types
20:50:35	<monochrom>	In fact, even -fdefer-type-errors rejects that, IIRC.
20:50:40	<mokrates>	It means that I can have a function which takes an Ord and uses < on it. But the implementation could be whatever...
20:50:43	<mauke>	monochrom: only if you don't define a Num Bool instance
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20:51:24	<mokrates>	monochrom: yeah, it probably would reject that, b/c that looks like it can't be compiled
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20:53:10	<monochrom>	@quote monochrom poor.*dependent
20:53:10	<lambdabot>	monochrom says: dynamic type is poor man's dependent type, they are so poor they can't buy a theorem prover.
20:54:10	<mokrates>	damn! you slammed my limo interpreter. I was so proud of it!
20:54:43	<mokrates>	(my lisp dialect... who learns lisp without building one, amiright?)
20:54:54	<mokrates>	ok. back to mr. curry.
20:54:57	<monochrom>	I did.
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20:55:12	<mauke>	if nil evaluates to itself and (eq nil 'nil), then why is (if 'nil nil 34) 34?
20:55:27	<mauke>	oh, because I'm dumb
20:55:41	<mauke>	please erase all memories of what I just said
20:55:43	<monochrom>	(if 'nil 34 nil) is better. :)
20:55:59	<erisco>	known as lemma M4
20:56:09	<monochrom>	Actually, let's erase "if" and learn "unless" instead. >:D
20:56:21	<mokrates>	what?
20:56:36	<monochrom>	(unless 'nil nil 34) is more intuitive. >:)
20:56:36	<mokrates>	so you're asking why (if 'nil 34 nil) -> 34?
20:56:59	<mauke>	I actually wrote (IF 'NIL ...) in the repl
20:57:09	<mauke>	I always uppercase my symbols out of respect
20:57:30	<mokrates>	uppercase is the way from a more civilized time
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20:57:44	<mauke>	WHEN PEOPLE WERE SHOUTING AT EACH OTHER ALL THE TIME
20:57:52	<mokrates>	λimo > (if 'nil 34 nil)
20:57:58	<monochrom>	I always lowercase because of the exciting "w00t finally a computer that supports lowercase, I should actually use it!"
20:57:59	<mokrates>	-> 34
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20:58:07	<monochrom>	s/exciting/excitement/
20:58:16	<mokrates>	oh... what?
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20:58:45	<mauke>	did you redefine nil, javascript style?
20:58:45	<mokrates>	ah, yes, of course
20:58:56	<mokrates>	a sec
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20:59:24	<geekosaur>	or ruby style, I used that productively once
20:59:59	<mokrates>	in limo "nil" is just a variable conaining ()
21:00:00	<mokrates>	and
21:00:15	<mokrates>	λimo > (if '() 'true 'false) -> FALSE
21:00:36	<monochrom>	Is it re-assignable?
21:00:51	<mokrates>	so 'nil evaluates (in limo) to the symbol nil which is not () but a symbol. so -> true
21:00:57	<monochrom>	Someone was obsessed with re-assigning a few days ago.
21:01:07	<mokrates>	CL should may do it differently
21:01:35	<mokrates>	CL-USER> (if 'nil 'true 'false) -> FALSE
21:01:46	<mauke>	'\|a\|\|b\| ; string concatenation (under quote) in common lisp
21:02:06	<mokrates>	that works. nil is directly translated by the reader in this case
21:02:49	<mauke>	more like, () evalutes to the symbol NIL, which is falsy
21:03:27	<mokrates>	also, this is weird:
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21:03:50	<mokrates>	(symbolp nil) -> T
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21:04:01	<mokrates>	(symbolp 'nil) -> T
21:04:12	<mokrates>	(symbolp ()) -> T
21:04:49	<mauke>	yeah, that matches what I said
21:05:04	<mokrates>	why is it a symbol?
21:05:14	<mokrates>	λimo > (SYMBOLP 'nil) -> :T
21:05:35	<mokrates>	λimo > (SYMBOLP nil) -> ()
21:05:49	<mauke>	because CL is weird
21:05:50	<mokrates>	(which is reasonable!)
21:06:03	<mokrates>	yeah, cl is weird
21:06:34	<mauke>	since it is a self-evaluating symbol, maybe it should've been called :NIL
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21:07:05	<mokrates>	mauke: '\|a\|\|b\| is not a string ;)
21:07:26	<mauke>	then why does it quack (concatenate) like one?
21:07:52	<mokrates>	I use :t for my true-value, b/c why define some special symbol for it?
21:08:03	<mokrates>	mauke: it's a symbol
21:08:34	<mauke>	:\|not nil\|
21:08:56	<mokrates>	absolutely standard ;)
21:08:59	<mauke>	actually, to maximize evil, you should probably call it :\|nil\|
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21:09:32	<mokrates>	but I didn't know that was possible with the \|\|-concatenation
21:09:41	<mokrates>	CL-USER> '\|foo\|bar -> \|fooBAR\|
21:10:10	<mauke>	oh, it's very shell-like
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21:10:48	<mokrates>	but you have to admit: to be able to redefine your reader mid-program is mind melting yet powerful
21:12:14	<mokrates>	λimo > (import "simplejson.limo")
21:12:21	<mokrates>	λimo > (setq fromjson #j{"foo": [1, 2, 3]} )
21:12:27	<mokrates>	-> #<dict: (("foo" 1 2 3))>
21:13:33	<mauke>	oh, like quasiquoting
21:13:54	<mokrates>	I got knots in my head.
21:14:36	<mauke>	here's a better canonical true value: (\|FUNCTION\| (lambda (\|t\| \|f\|) \|t\|))
21:14:38	<mokrates>	Seriously. I implemented ',', ',@' and '`' in the reader just as syntactic sugar
21:14:42	<mauke>	now compatible with lambda calculus!
21:15:05	<mokrates>	like `(,x) just translates to a list (quasiquote (comma x)). that's it
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21:15:12	<mokrates>	and then i defined a macro quasiquote
21:17:59	<mokrates>	https://github.com/mokrates/limo/blob/master/limo-code/std.limo#L221C1-L221C1
21:18:56	<mokrates>	it's just a soup of cons and list and car and recursive calls
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21:20:25	<mauke>	soupcons of lists
21:20:36	<mokrates>	mauke: about that lambda calculus... haskell has lazy eval... why does it have 'if'?
21:20:42	<mokrates>	why isn't if just
21:20:53	<mokrates>	if True x y = x
21:20:57	<mokrates>	if False x y = y
21:20:58	<mokrates>	?
21:21:03	<sshine>	:t if'
21:21:04	<lambdabot>	error:
21:21:04	<lambdabot>	• Variable not in scope: if'
21:21:04	<lambdabot>	• Perhaps you meant ‘f'’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect)
21:21:04	<geekosaur>	:t bool
21:21:05	<lambdabot>	a -> a -> Bool -> a
21:21:06	<mauke>	tradition?
21:21:44	<geekosaur>	but `if` is actually syntax sugar for `case () of () \| condition -> true \| otherwise -> false`
21:21:54	<mauke>	I mean, that is how the 'if' syntax behaves. and with RebindableSyntax you can make it explicit
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21:24:36	<mokrates>	hm... I would have thought it nicer to just have it as a function. Like in Clean
21:25:10	<mokrates>	but ok. doesn't really change anything, I think
21:26:18	<geekosaur>	iirc we've had trouble tracking down the folks involved with the original Haskell Report who made these kinds of decisions
21:26:41	<sshine>	mokrates, you get some indentation rules that are nice with dedicated syntax
21:27:00	<mokrates>	hm, ok
21:27:12	<sshine>	mokrates, but judging from the backlog, I suppose you might say that macros can give that, too ;-)
21:27:22	<dolio>	The natural answer is that the if-then-else syntax is way better than a function for many common if-then-else uses.
21:27:53	<mokrates>	but in the end it's just cosmetics, right?
21:28:02	<dolio>	Cosmetics matter.
21:28:05	<mokrates>	or is there a semantic difference, too?
21:28:15	<mokrates>	dolio: they absolutely do
21:29:24	<mokrates>	But I learn faster if there's not tons of syntax all doing their own shit ;)
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21:32:42	<EvanR>	there is no semantic difference
21:33:09	<EvanR>	so all you've got to worry about is the cosmetics!
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21:33:45	<EvanR>	mokrates, you could write all your code in core, which is very uniform and has no bells and whistles
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21:38:33	<mokrates>	yeah, of course not. expressiveness and cosmetics are relevant. to bother the lisp example again: I like when the core is slim and the whistles are all in macros which have certain constraints themselves and an implementation you can look at
21:39:25	<mokrates>	thanks everybody :)
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-14.