Logs on 2023-09-16 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:52:11 | <Inst> | Just to confirm, re people familiar with TH: |
| 00:52:58 | <Inst> | Reify cannot get the right hand side of a definition, right? |
| 00:53:00 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.20.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH.html#t:Info |
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| 00:57:47 | <geekosaur> | you mean for VarI and TyVarI? correct |
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| 00:58:10 | <geekosaur> | someone would have to implement those |
| 00:58:30 | <[Leary]> | Inst: It can if there's a Dec. But yeah, not for `VarI`; see the note. |
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| 00:59:50 | <Inst> | What do you mean by Dec? |
| 01:00:12 | <geekosaur> | a declaration, in TH speak |
| 01:01:00 | <Inst> | Yeah, I'm familiar with the concept, I had an earlier version of the library dump out Dec data types, but it seems to be such that if you have a defined term, TH is not capable of traversing the tree |
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| 01:03:51 | <geekosaur> | probably need to do something with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskell-src-meta |
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| 01:04:45 | <geekosaur> | (parsing the source yourself with haskell-src-exts and converting it to TH trees with haskell-src-meta, that is) |
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| 01:21:06 | <Inst> | it's not convenient, so I probably have to dump the idea of parsing out where clauses for now |
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| 07:44:03 | <Franciman> | hi, does ghc implement fully lazy evaluation? |
| 07:44:53 | <Franciman> | sorry, fully lazy sharing evaluation |
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| 07:50:56 | <[Leary]> | Franciman: "GHC doesn’t implement complete full laziness. Although GHC’s full-laziness optimisation does enable some transformations which would be performed by a fully lazy implementation (such as extracting repeated computations from loops), these transformations are not applied consistently, so don’t rely on them." --- GHC User's Guide, note on `-ffull-laziness`. |
| 07:51:23 | <[Leary]> | If GHC judges it will be less expensive to recompute a value, it will opt not to share. |
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| 07:52:30 | <Franciman> | ty herr [Leary] |
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| 10:21:10 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> Does this room bridge to any other platform than IRC? |
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| 10:42:45 | <tomsmeding> | tewuzij: don't think so, I think it was set up precisely for this irc-matrix link |
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| 10:42:49 | <tomsmeding> | it was plumbed before iirc |
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| 11:49:36 | <Inst> | hmmm, a question, is there any way to get true global mutables in Haskell? |
| 11:49:56 | <Inst> | we're discussing the prospect of just stuffing everything in IO as an option for fast prototyping in Haskell |
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| 11:51:26 | phileasfogg | is now known as rand0mApplicativ |
| 11:51:32 | <mauke> | global IORef, unsafePerformIO, {-# NOINLINE #-} |
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| 12:27:26 | <[exa]> | Inst: btw some instance of (RWST r w s IO) is a pretty good choice for the "global environment" of most projects. If you totally need global variables that do not do much with the State there, just save an IORef in the `r` part |
| 12:28:35 | <Inst> | also, btw, remember when I was discussing Haskell without type signatures? |
| 12:28:38 | <Inst> | https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/7sr8k7/fast_prototyping_how_to_experiences/dt7hi94/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button |
| 12:28:54 | <Inst> | "let ghc tell you all your types instead of typing them yourself" |
| 12:31:49 | <[exa]> | Inst: that's good for prototyping; I love that. (Typed holes help.) Later in the project, the explicit type signatures protect you from type errors propagating between functions (the error messages in these easily get quite confusing.) |
| 12:33:01 | <Inst> | on IDE the type sigs are all shadowed, and while you're typing out your definitions, the type sigs will change into really balmy / insane forms |
| 12:33:07 | <Inst> | then come to sanity when you get it right |
| 12:33:13 | <Inst> | erm, HLS |
| 12:33:15 | <Inst> | not IDE |
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| 12:35:08 | <[exa]> | yeah |
| 12:35:17 | <[exa]> | tbh HLS stresses me out. :D |
| 12:36:57 | <mauke> | RWST is redundant. just put IORefs in your ReaderT x IO |
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| 12:47:16 | <Inst> | is everyone just recklessly copying Edward Kmett? Since he admitted he was using ReaderT IORef with implicit params? |
| 12:47:48 | <c_wraith> | there are a lot worse options to copy |
| 12:49:22 | <mauke> | why implicit params? |
| 12:49:32 | <c_wraith> | But it's also worth noting that IORefs aren't just mutable cells - they're cross-thread communication. |
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| 12:50:30 | <c_wraith> | When you've got a concurrent system, that's often a good thing to have access to. |
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| 13:13:36 | <Inst> | c_wraith: I recall an old Snoyman blog post about how IOrefs broke under concurrency |
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| 13:13:53 | <Inst> | as well as a BenGamari gitlab post about issues with IORef under concurrency |
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| 13:21:02 | <c_wraith> | institor: their limits are well-documented. but they remain excellent for write-few, read-many workloads that don't need multi-update transactions |
| 13:21:10 | <c_wraith> | err. Inst |
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| 13:27:09 | <renpose> | instead than `main :: IO ()` I'd like to declare an application by something like `(Proxy spec, App spec)` for a type-family `App` (similar to servant etc.) and (ab)use the build system a bit: 1. generate some files from the proxy value, and 2. declare main-is on the fly as `main = f proxy app` with the appropriate `f :: Proxy spec -> App spec -> |
| 13:27:09 | <renpose> | IO ()`. looked around Setup.hs and started looking at the source of Distribution-Simple.defaultMain but honestly a bit lost here or does this require a ghc plugin? |
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| 13:30:10 | <c_wraith> | you can certainly do it with Setup.hs, but I'd probably use a code generator to pre-generate the code instead. |
| 13:31:19 | <c_wraith> | a third alternative would be some sort of TH stub that creates main for you. |
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| 13:40:01 | <renpose> | I'd hope to use the type family approach, actually looked at th but it seems like i cando without. reify would also require to chase all type synonyms and probably other things i'd rather not have to. |
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| 13:41:47 | <renpose> | any pointers regarding 2 with Setup.hs? |
| 13:43:08 | <c_wraith> | renpose: did you want an example of reify magic? https://gist.github.com/chowells79/1d3560bdd7edd84de8c82c87e96cfaea |
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| 13:51:28 | <renpose> | Ah, so yeah i do have a class for realising `f` which i havent tried `reifyInstances` i tried with `reify` on the proxy. thanks i'll have a look! |
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| 13:54:37 | <renpose> | but still the Setup.hs route would seem less brittle to me and more clean imo. though th would be the easiest/most familiar |
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| 14:11:40 | <institor> | what |
| 14:11:45 | <institor> | oh |
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| 14:12:52 | <c_wraith> | sorry about that |
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| 14:20:17 | <tomsmeding> | is it somewhere on the GHC roadmap to do better pattern match coverage checking in the presence of GADTs? https://play.haskell.org/saved/o2cbIrMS |
| 14:20:45 | <tomsmeding> | it works fine if the Val and Idx arguments are swapped, because then it's somehow clearer that you're handling all cases of Idx |
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| 14:32:48 | <[Leary]> | tomsmeding: You have to pattern match to expose the coercion that narrows further pattern matching. This works nicely with `Idx` first, but with `Val` first you still need to match on `VTop` to know that no further arguments can follow. This should be expressed with EmptyCase: `prj (VPush x env) = \case{ ... }; prj VTop = \case{}`. |
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| 14:33:55 | <[Leary]> | It should also be mentioned by -Winaccessible-code, probably. This may merit an issue on the gitlab tracker. I kinda doubt the actual exhaustivity checker will change, though. |
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| 15:03:21 | <[Leary]> | tomsmeding: I had a further thought, which is that strictness is relevant here, and GHC is, well, strict about that. You can write `prj v !i = case (v, i) of ...` and GHC will accept just two cases, but if you drop that bang pattern, it will go back to complaining. So part of the issue should be that GHC can't know the strictness of the (second) argument for cases you haven't written. |
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| 15:10:05 | <tomsmeding> | [Leary]: ah, that was it! |
| 15:10:13 | <tomsmeding> | it was the strictness |
| 15:10:15 | <tomsmeding> | thanks! |
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| 15:11:21 | <tomsmeding> | adding 'valprj VTop i = case i of {}' as the third line works beautifully |
| 15:11:27 | <tomsmeding> | er, without the 'val' |
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| 15:13:16 | <tomsmeding> | definitely neater than writing a go function with the arguments flipped |
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| 16:24:01 | <monochrom> | Why do I have the pessimistic feeling that if you omit the impossible pattern you get "warning: inexhaustive", but if you include it you get "warning: inaccessible". >:) |
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| 16:28:39 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/GHC-Exts.html#v:considerAccessible |
| 16:30:11 | <monochrom> | Nice. |
| 16:30:30 | monochrom | starts abusing it by s/otherwise/considerAccessible/ >:) |
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| 16:36:39 | <haskellbridge> | <hyiltiz> Y |
| 16:38:13 | <haskellbridge> | <hyiltiz> (testing IRC connection) |
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| 16:43:22 | <glguy> | Hi |
| 16:43:35 | <geekosaur> | œ |
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| 18:31:59 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: that's precisely what I got, hence my confusion |
| 18:32:27 | <tomsmeding> | and actually, both diagnostics are correct! |
| 18:32:55 | <tomsmeding> | a VTop + IZ/IS pattern match is _indeed_ inaccessible, because forcing the Idx gives you an absurd situation |
| 18:33:45 | <tomsmeding> | hm, though it's questionable whether the "inexhaustive" warning is actually accurate |
| 18:33:51 | <tomsmeding> | at the very least it could have more nuance |
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| 18:53:12 | <minnu> | can you help me in solving this code in haskell |
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| 18:55:54 | <juri_> | not now. |
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| 19:36:53 | <tomsmeding> | indeed, because they already left |
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| 19:38:54 | <geekosaur> | waited perhaps a minute for someone to do their homework for them? |
| 19:39:49 | <tomsmeding> | you know what, there's a charitable take as well: perhaps they already figured it out themselves |
| 19:40:01 | <tomsmeding> | though I admit that this is exceedingly unlikely |
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| 20:00:58 | <monochrom> | I'm pessimistic and cynical, so my take is that they asked on multiple platforms and they got what they wanted elsewhere. |
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| 20:01:18 | <monochrom> | They deeply understand async's race function. >:D |
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| 20:13:20 | <hpc> | that reminds me, next year is the 9000th day of september |
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| 20:16:09 | <tomsmeding> | > 2024 - 9000 / 365 |
| 20:16:10 | <lambdabot> | 1999.3424657534247 |
| 20:16:51 | <hpc> | hmm nope, i was off by a bit |
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| 20:17:49 | <hpc> | ... or i didn't read the date on this SO thing correctly |
| 20:18:05 | tomsmeding | . o O ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September#Legacy ) |
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| 20:20:51 | <hpc> | the 90s will always be less than 10 years ago in my brain |
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| 20:33:46 | <mauke> | 19123 |
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| 22:36:43 | <dsal> | hpc: That's such a weird thing. |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-16.