Logs on 2023-09-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:06:31 | <Inst> | okay, i think i'll try to debug this here, now |
| 00:07:17 | <institor> | jacking in... |
| 00:07:59 | <Inst> | basement is blocking haddock from building documentation, i'm getting really annoyed at vincent hanquez, tbh |
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| 00:08:27 | <Inst> | i've heard from others of his antics: i.e, blocking haskell-foundation namespace on github, the long time it took for the crypton fork |
| 00:09:48 | <Inst> | on cabal 10 |
| 00:09:53 | <Inst> | 3.10, rather |
| 00:10:33 | <Inst> | hmmm, okay, this works on cabal 3.6 |
| 00:11:38 | <Inst> | and 3.8.1 |
| 00:11:45 | <Inst> | maybe i should take this to haskell tooling channels? |
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| 00:13:25 | <Inst> | wow, the documentatino i wrote sucks :( |
| 00:13:29 | <Inst> | need to learn how to use haddock better |
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| 04:18:42 | <Inst> | also, ummm, can I ask something about Template Haskell? |
| 04:18:49 | <Inst> | I have a rough design that's based around traverse |
| 04:19:19 | <Inst> | that is to say, I have a sum-of product type, and I need to implement a way to convert the fields of the product type into a new data type |
| 04:19:41 | <Inst> | btw thanks c_wraith for clarifications |
| 04:20:26 | <Inst> | I can do this adequately well using a printer that converts the product type into a file for copy pasting, but with template haskell, this is not viable? |
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| 04:25:27 | <c_wraith> | Inst: you can do quite a lot from TH, but I really have no idea what you're asking for. Like - what data do you have, what are you doing with it, why are you doing it at compile time, etc |
| 04:27:57 | <Inst> | c_wraith: I'm trying to work on extending file-embed into an asset file management library, possibly with reimplementation |
| 04:28:38 | <c_wraith> | so... you want to parse some sort of manifest and embed everything it lists as an appropriate structure? |
| 04:28:49 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/BsZRGiY0 |
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| 04:29:18 | <Inst> | yeah, I'd rather build a list literal |
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| 04:29:40 | <Inst> | then it can be fed to the IOActions part of the library which'll traverse a function into it returning a list of results, which the end user presumably can employ |
| 04:30:17 | <c_wraith> | I'm not sure this is really the route to take. It'll destroy compile performance. |
| 04:30:19 | <Inst> | i somehow get the feeling that it might be better |
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| 04:30:34 | <c_wraith> | compilation time is super-linear in the module size |
| 04:30:48 | <Inst> | there's an alternative module that produces literals without TH |
| 04:31:01 | <c_wraith> | if you embed megabytes of data into a module, that's going to be a real performance hit |
| 04:31:42 | <Inst> | since we know that reify is limited, is this an unsurpassable Haskell limitation? |
| 04:32:28 | <Inst> | the overall design is build manifest, process manifest in program, but the manifest design is intended to be open |
| 04:32:40 | <Inst> | one idea i've had is to add a zip / tar format and use that instead |
| 04:37:06 | <Inst> | thank you for the useful input :) |
| 04:37:38 | <EvanR> | concat a binary blob on the end of the EXE and then FFI load/parse it at runtime! |
| 04:38:13 | <EvanR> | (might not need FFI) |
| 04:38:48 | <EvanR> | concat the Show output blob on the end of the EXE and read it at runtime! |
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| 04:56:24 | <Inst> | the problem is that I have a polymorphically typed item, hmmm, what to do with it, ugh |
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| 04:57:01 | <Inst> | maybe just reify it then extract the name from the literal and hope it works? TH being weakly typed is a pain |
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| 05:01:23 | <EvanR> | TH is strongly typed |
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| 05:04:17 | <EvanR> | but the pain part is probably real |
| 05:06:09 | <Inst> | okay, and reify gives me a stage error, gah |
| 05:06:43 | <Inst> | it's like, I can identify useful libs missing in ecosystem, but it's always a good reason it hasn't been done |
| 05:06:59 | <c_wraith> | stage errors are easy enough to work around.. you just need more files. |
| 05:07:38 | <Inst> | i'm trying to pattern match against a data structure |
| 05:07:55 | <Inst> | and then change the data structure to a new data structure with a TH literal added |
| 05:08:25 | <c_wraith> | you can't *change* a data type with template haskell. |
| 05:09:02 | <Inst> | I mean, say, you have (3,4), you can transform it into (3,3,4,4) as a literal in TH |
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| 05:10:35 | <Inst> | here, I'm trying to do ``` DataConstructor assetID filePathOfEmbed ``` and convert it to ``` DataConstructor2 assetId byteStringLiteralOfFile``` |
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| 05:16:29 | <Inst> | i think the code goes to hell because it's polymorphic, ugh |
| 05:16:57 | <Inst> | Could not deduce (Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax.Lift assetId) |
| 05:17:00 | <Inst> | should i add this as a constraint? |
| 05:17:15 | <Inst> | but what does it mean to the end user? Can you derive an instance of Lift and have it be ergonomic? |
| 05:18:03 | <glguy> | They can often be hand made and there is template haskell solutions |
| 05:18:37 | <glguy> | But most types won't have an instance without intervention |
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| 05:20:11 | <Inst> | so staging overload is the best option? |
| 05:21:25 | <glguy> | I don't know what that is |
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| 05:35:38 | <Inst> | well, i can't get staging to work either, like, the error is: |
| 05:35:50 | <Inst> | extractName a = 'a |
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| 05:36:14 | <Inst> | "Stage error: the non-top-level quoted name 'a must be used at the same level it's bound" |
| 05:36:38 | <Inst> | that's pretty much screwed, isn't it? |
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| 05:43:51 | <EvanR> | check your staging --scott manley |
| 05:44:11 | <EvanR> | TH is rocket science |
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| 06:07:25 | <Inst> | pun appreciated :) |
| 06:11:07 | <phma> | I just edited the README and ran "stack run" and got this: |
| 06:11:37 | <phma> | WringTwistree-0.1.0.0: unregistering (local file changes: README.md) |
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| 06:12:21 | <phma> | followed by some rebuilding lines. Why, since README.md is not a source file? |
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| 06:32:05 | <glguy> | phma: maybe it wasn't in the correct section of the cabal file |
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| 06:37:43 | <Inst> | okay, this is a really stupid override, but [p|myterm|] seems to work |
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| 06:52:44 | <phma> | glguy: it's in extra-source-files in both package.yaml and WringTwistree.cabal |
| 06:53:32 | <glguy> | Then it needs to move to extra-doc-files: |
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| 06:59:00 | <phma> | that fixed it |
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| 07:43:56 | <Inst> | okay, rigged it up to work with a Lift constraint, but let's look at the absolute basic case |
| 07:44:06 | <Inst> | [p|myterm|] doesn't work |
| 07:44:09 | <Inst> | because it's name shadowing |
| 07:44:33 | <Inst> | myMkName :: a -> Q Name |
| 07:44:39 | <Inst> | myMkName a = pure 'a |
| 07:44:57 | <Inst> | obviously this causes a staging error |
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| 08:02:12 | <[exa]> | Inst: why don't you go the usual way and just link the binary blob to your executable? |
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| 08:03:11 | <[exa]> | like, dragging the binary data through the whole compilation pipeline is a valiant effort but from the software engineering pov it should be more of an exceptional necessity than a good practice |
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| 08:06:13 | <Inst> | does cabal have an option for this? |
| 08:07:51 | <[exa]> | Inst: no idea but I can't see why it wouldn't work. Manually you run: `ld -r -b binary -o yourblob.o yourblob`, and `nm yourblob.o` gives you symbols _binary_yourbob_start, _binary_yourblob_end and _binary_yourblob_size which you can FFI pretty much normally |
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| 08:08:30 | <arahael> | Inst: I've gotten rather intrigued - My haskell is far too simplistic to help, (and besides, exa's looking like they're doing a good job as it is), but mind giving me a bit of that backstory as I missed the start of the convo. |
| 08:08:33 | <Inst> | i mean what i'm doing right now is to attempt to build a user-friendly library for file management in Haskell |
| 08:08:34 | <[exa]> | and it is pretty fast and moreless configurable by packaging maintainers, as opposed to whatever supersmart system hidden deep in TH |
| 08:09:06 | <[exa]> | Inst: user-friendliness is a myth. Make it computer friendly, users shall follow |
| 08:09:21 | <Inst> | it was originally supposed to support web downloads as an alternative to keeping the file with your assets |
| 08:09:50 | <[exa]> | would it start a web download from TH? |
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| 08:11:32 | <Inst> | nope, the TH is supposed to be in quarantine, and only an option |
| 08:11:45 | <Inst> | the other interface is based off ummm, directly generating literals to a file |
| 08:11:52 | <Inst> | for hot copy paste action |
| 08:11:53 | Inst | facepalms |
| 08:13:06 | <Inst> | i stuffed the web side of this once i discovered that i had to deal with 2394829342 different exceptions, and going with http-conduit meant that I had to learn a ton of other http exceptions |
| 08:13:14 | <Inst> | any work in IO etc implies having to learn an exception system ;_; |
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| 08:15:38 | <[exa]> | Inst: that's also available somewhere in binutils tbh, you can literally ask binutils to translate your binary blob into a C header |
| 08:15:47 | <[exa]> | for haskell you just change the header/footer of that |
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| 08:20:40 | <Inst> | yeah, i'll have to consider that in the future, but rather, more like a TH way to automate the packaging |
| 08:20:41 | <Inst> | ugh |
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| 08:20:59 | <Inst> | actually, this is a bad idea |
| 08:21:11 | <Inst> | TH runs first, then the compiler, and I'd need TH to link the stuff together |
| 08:22:00 | <Inst> | anyways, this entire project has left a horrible taste in my mouth, i'll go beggar anyone who offers to provide a solution for the mkNmae a = pure 'a problem, but I guess I'd rather figure out how to flatparse a cabal file now |
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| 08:28:39 | <Inst> | at least, end of the day, I realized that IO is a pain in the ass if you're being honest about it no matter what |
| 08:28:42 | <Inst> | Haskell is just liable to hide it |
| 08:28:48 | <Inst> | *less liable |
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| 09:21:18 | <probie> | Most IO actions can fail for a huge number of reasons. No language can change that, at best they can make it more tolerable. |
| 09:21:53 | <int-e> | . o O ( rocks fall, everyone dies ) |
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| 09:22:30 | <int-e> | . o O ( E_ROCKFAL in C. ) |
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| 09:22:58 | <int-e> | err, no underscore :-/ |
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| 11:40:27 | <ph88> | does someone know a function that combines `all` and `catMaybes` [Maybe a] -> [a] only when all of them are Just ? |
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| 11:41:41 | <Rembane> | ph88: `all isJust`? |
| 11:42:49 | <ph88> | Rembane, doesn't that return a Bool ? |
| 11:43:13 | <ph88> | i got the type signature wrong by the way [Maybe a] -> Maybe [a] |
| 11:43:28 | <tomsmeding> | :t sequence |
| 11:43:29 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
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| 11:44:09 | <tomsmeding> | :t sequence @[] @Maybe |
| 11:44:10 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 11:44:11 | <lambdabot> | Pattern syntax in expression context: sequence@[] |
| 11:44:11 | <lambdabot> | Did you mean to enable TypeApplications? |
| 11:44:16 | <tomsmeding> | % :t sequence @[] @Maybe |
| 11:44:16 | <yahb2> | sequence @[] @Maybe :: Monad Maybe => [Maybe a] -> Maybe [a] |
| 11:44:26 | <tomsmeding> | dat 'Monad Maybe' constraint lol? |
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| 11:45:01 | <hpc> | you never know :P |
| 11:45:01 | <tomsmeding> | wonder why that doesn't get eliminated |
| 11:45:06 | <Rembane> | ph88: It does, I got confused by the types. Sorry. |
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| 11:45:56 | <tomsmeding> | sequence, also known as 'traverse id' |
| 11:46:02 | <tomsmeding> | ph88: it was traverse all along |
| 11:46:06 | <ph88> | thanks guys :)) |
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| 11:49:57 | <Rembane> | Sidenote, Hoogle is very useful in this case: https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=%5BMaybe%20a%5D%20-%3E%20Maybe%20%5Ba%5D |
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| 12:19:37 | <XuMEPA> | Hello. I have a question. How to correct install haskell on debian 12 bookworm? |
| 12:20:34 | <XuMEPA> | No instaruction for debian 12 on this (https://downloads.haskell.org/debian/) page |
| 12:20:48 | <Rembane> | XuMEPA: ghcup is one of the better methods: https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/ |
| 12:21:04 | <XuMEPA> | Thx I will try |
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| 12:21:44 | <Rembane> | XuMEPA: Good luck! |
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| 12:24:46 | <juri_> | apt install ghc cabal-install? |
| 12:24:56 | <juri_> | it's what i use. works for me. |
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| 12:31:15 | <[exa]> | XuMEPA: if you don't care much about version, the method of juri_ works best |
| 12:31:33 | <[exa]> | XuMEPA: if you need new ones (you likely don't), go for ghcup |
| 12:32:12 | <[exa]> | XuMEPA: and a viable alternative is to simply download the binary builds and link them into your ~/.local/bin, works for me reliably since ever |
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| 12:40:59 | <XuMEPA> | I already install ghcup and for now it works fine for me. Thx guys for help. I even don't try from start to install from apt-get because i always want to use repos from developers/communitys. And there is no repo for bookworm. |
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| 12:58:40 | <tomsmeding> | XuMEPA: the haskell community has mostly decided to maintain ghcup instead of a particular apt repository |
| 12:59:36 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, there is no topic on which _everyone_ agrees, and this is one of them, but ghcup is definitely quite popular these days |
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| 14:02:55 | <Inst> | can I ask about the story regarding strict tuples? |
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| 14:04:16 | <Inst> | as in, why don't we have them? |
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| 14:16:32 | <fendor> | I was playing around with Codensity and the free monad. I've read a couple of times, that it should be faster, asymptotically speaking, to use Codensity (Free f) over Free f, but in some trivial examples, this was not observable. |
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| 14:16:57 | <fendor> | In what situations should it be faster to use Codensity (Free f) over Free f? |
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| 14:23:09 | <ncf> | in the same kind of situation where dlists are faster than lists |
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| 14:31:50 | <[Leary]> | fendor: See the docs and implementation of: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-5.2/docs/Control-Monad-Free-Church.html (which is a refinement of the Codensity approach). |
| 14:33:07 | <fendor> | hm, ok thanks! |
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| 14:47:24 | heath3 | is now known as heath |
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| 14:49:18 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: I mean, you can always define them yourself, right? |
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| 15:03:16 | <sm> | Inst I'd bet they're on hackage somewhere |
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| 15:05:55 | <Inst> | defining them yourself: unergonomic, hackage version, unsure as to whether it's maintained or the level of quality |
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| 15:06:33 | <Inst> | also tuples are pretty fundamental, the syntax matters |
| 15:06:34 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/strict-0.5/docs/Data-Strict-Tuple.html |
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| 15:12:32 | <[exa]> | Inst: y tho |
| 15:12:58 | <Inst> | control laziness? |
| 15:14:00 | <[exa]> | no, use tuples for anything that bears semantics |
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| 15:19:10 | <fendor> | [Leary], interestingly, the church encoding is even a tad slower than codensity in some handwavy benchmark |
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| 15:22:55 | <fendor> | perhaps I am not measuring the construction time and the evaluation overhead introduced by the indirection is the main difference |
| 15:23:19 | <fendor> | benchmarking is hard :( |
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| 15:27:53 | <[Leary]> | The refinement is of the type itself, not the performance of its operations. Both Codensity and C.M.F.Church.F are asymptotic improvements over naive Free, but that says nothing about the constants involved. It's a complete tossup what's faster at small n, and even for large n it's still a tossup what's faster between the linear options. |
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| 15:29:15 | <[Leary]> | And it depends how you use the values you construct too. |
| 15:29:26 | <fendor> | Oh, I thought both should be faster when you do a lot of >>= operations because a naive Free implementation of >>= needs to traverse the whole structure |
| 15:30:23 | <[Leary]> | They should, that's what I mean by large n. |
| 15:30:55 | <fendor> | laziness might work in Free's >>= favour, right? |
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| 15:32:30 | <fendor> | I can imagine it might also depend a lot on how big the term is on the left hand side of >>= |
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| 16:22:20 | <justsomeguy> | I'm trying to set up a project that uses amazonka, but I'm cofused about how to add the library to my stack.yaml file. Where do I put extra-deps? |
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| 16:26:16 | <justsomeguy> | (Also, I'm just a little shocked at how much of a leap it is from writing Haskell for homework to using it for real -- looking at this example program there are so many new things! Four language extensions, lens, conduit, monad transformers...) |
| 16:26:57 | <danza> | maybe you want to edit package.yml (or yaml) rather than stack.yaml? |
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| 16:29:23 | <danza> | about extensions, lens, conduit and transformers: maybe the example you are copying from is a bit too advanced. Experienced haskellers can get an advantage by all those tools, but as a starter one could get lost by the complex types and behavior that come with them |
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| 16:31:47 | <justsomeguy> | Right, I agree, but there aren't any simple examples in that repo. |
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| 16:32:49 | <justsomeguy> | At some point I hope to make a few and send a PR. I have a bunch of aws-cli bash scripts / boto3 script / terraform that I can translate to Haskell once I figure out how to install the library. |
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| 16:33:41 | <justsomeguy> | Taking a coffee break, back in a few... |
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| 19:51:04 | <ph88> | anyone know a best approach to implement the second function? https://bpa.st/ETVA i was thinking about foldl, but i think that iterates too many times needlessly. Perhaps an auxilary function with recursion would be better |
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| 19:53:34 | <monochrom> | :type mapM |
| 19:53:41 | <monochrom> | @type mapM |
| 19:53:42 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b) |
| 19:53:59 | <monochrom> | Let m = Either e :) |
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| 20:00:53 | <[Leary]> | "the answer is always traverse" |
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| 20:11:08 | <ph88> | thank you :) |
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| 20:57:16 | <jackdk> | @tell justsomeguy what are you trying to do with amazonka? perhaps there's a simpler way. |
| 20:57:17 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 22:03:56 | <ph88> | is it possible to make this function ? Foldable f => Foldable1 g => f a -> Maybe (g a) |
| 22:04:30 | <mauke> | => =>? that's illegal |
| 22:05:09 | <ph88> | he? i thought that was just another notation for (Foldable f, Foldable1 g) => f a -> Maybe (g a) |
| 22:07:15 | <geekosaur> | it at least used to be, dunno if they changed it |
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| 22:07:27 | <geekosaur> | (it wasn';t supposed to work, it was a side effect of something else) |
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| 22:10:11 | <geekosaur> | so you should not rely on it as it is not guaranteed to always work |
| 22:11:47 | <ph88> | like this function https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/Data-List-NonEmpty.html#v:nonEmpty could it be implemented for Foldable/Foldable1 ? |
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| 22:18:50 | <ncf> | no |
| 22:18:58 | <ncf> | Foldable is a mapping-out property, not mapping-into |
| 22:19:00 | <probie> | ph88: Is it possible to make that function? Not a chance. What is possible is `(Foldable f, Applicative g, Semigroup (g a)) => f a -> Maybe (g a)` or `Foldable f => f a -> (forall g . Foldable1 g => Maybe (g a))` |
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| 22:20:26 | <ncf> | the latter is the same type as the question |
| 22:20:37 | <ncf> | so also not possible |
| 22:21:21 | <probie> | yeah, I think I meant something like `Foldable f => f a -> (forall g . Foldable1 g => Maybe (g a) -> r) -> r` |
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| 22:22:19 | <probie> | haven't had my morning coffee yet |
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| 22:22:56 | <ph88> | Could the function be made with some unsafe functions underneath ? |
| 22:23:25 | <ncf> | it's an interface issue, not a safety issue |
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| 22:23:50 | <ncf> | you can't make up a function [a] -> t a knowing nothing about t other than it's Foldable |
| 22:24:00 | <ph88> | what about some coerce thing that tells GHC ... don't type check this .. it's okay ? |
| 22:24:33 | <c_wraith> | ph88: but it needs to know what type t is in order to build a t. You can't coerce into that |
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| 22:25:16 | <monochrom> | At this point perhaps you should specify what you want it to do rather than hiding behind a type and unsafe functions that accomplishes God-knows-what. |
| 22:25:18 | <ph88> | it should be like f ~ g |
| 22:26:06 | <c_wraith> | so.. id? |
| 22:26:06 | <probie> | If `f ~ g`, then it's easy to implement and your function is `Just` |
| 22:26:35 | <ph88> | monochrom, mainly to deepen my understanding at this point of what is allowable. But the use case would be to have this function polymorphic https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.18.0.0/docs/Data-List-NonEmpty.html#v:nonEmpty |
| 22:27:06 | <ph88> | c_wraith, ups obviously that was not right :P |
| 22:27:40 | <monochrom> | "generalize" is meaningless until you can give at least 3 examples. |
| 22:27:49 | <probie> | You can do `Foldable f => f a -> Maybe (NonEmpty a)` |
| 22:28:05 | <glguy> | demo :: Foldable f => f a -> (forall g . Foldable g => Maybe (g a) -> r) -> r |
| 22:28:05 | <glguy> | demo fa k = k (Just fa) |
| 22:28:07 | <monochrom> | And perhaps in the process you also realize what Foldable cannot do on its own. |
| 22:28:22 | <glguy> | Ah, foldable1 |
| 22:28:30 | <glguy> | back to the editor *nod* |
| 22:30:34 | <probie> | glguy: `demo fa k = k (nonEmpty (toList fa))` (since `k` has to work for any `Foldable1`, which includes `NonEmpty`) |
| 22:30:48 | <glguy> | aw, you didn't let me paste it |
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| 22:31:15 | <probie> | sorry |
| 22:32:12 | <ncf> | so, demo :: (exists f. Foldable f *> f a) -> Maybe (exists g. Foldable1 g *> g a) ? |
| 22:32:26 | <ncf> | doesn't seem terribly useful :p |
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| 22:33:18 | <ph88> | i didn't ran this code, but what about this way? https://bpa.st/VT4Q |
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| 22:34:10 | <glguy> | I can't imagine ever needing that |
| 22:34:32 | <glguy> | I should read the scrollback to see what we're doing here |
| 22:35:19 | <c_wraith> | that does seem pretty useless. the point of a class isn't to share names, it's to share code. |
| 22:36:29 | <glguy> | c_wraith: teach that to Default <_< |
| 22:36:48 | <c_wraith> | Yeah, I don't use Default for a reason. :P |
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| 22:45:16 | <ph88> | seems Foldable1 is only recently in base as well .. interesting |
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| 23:40:50 | <jackdk> | I've always been partial to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-default |
| 23:41:18 | <jackdk> | which I use exactly as often as `data-default`, because it is exactly as principled. |
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| 23:44:28 | <EvanR> | ertes! damn |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-17.