Logs on 2023-09-19 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:02:26	<EvanR>	as long as the type signature is somewhere near the top of the page of docs for function f
00:02:48	<EvanR>	big docs for function or method in other languages are sometimes hard to see or aren't there at all
00:02:56	<EvanR>	type signature that is
00:06:21	<jackdk>	The trouble is when the type signature is something like `Lens (Producer a' m x) (Producer a m x) (FreeT (Producer a' m) m x) (FreeT (Producer a m) m x)`, a fair amount of mental bootstrapping is required to get into the library's space at all
00:07:41	geekosaur	got that… he thinks
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00:18:22	<geekosaur>	meep?
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00:21:24	<geekosaur>	irccloud just disconnected and reconnected my puppet for unknown reasons. you won't have noticed if you have joins/parts silenced
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00:45:40	<institor>	geekosaur: yes libera has apparently been "shedding" connections recently
00:45:50	<institor>	i also received "Server closed connection" recently
00:46:02	<institor>	not sure why
00:46:09	<Axman6>	Should've written the server in Haskell
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05:19:18	<Inst>	is Cabal a strong Haskell codebase?
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05:19:34	<Inst>	I'm having usual ambivalence about going through the codebase, for instance, I noticed a bunch of import Prelude () declares
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05:20:36	<davean>	Inst: what about that?
05:20:59	<Inst>	that seems to be actually -XNoImplicitPrelude in non-language form, but importing instances?
05:21:33	<davean>	Well you can't not import instances.
05:21:45	<davean>	And yes, because language extensions are definitionally non-portable
05:23:06	<Inst>	well, the library enables type operators
05:23:43	<int-e>	...what is the goal here...
05:24:29	<Inst>	what is goal referring to?
05:24:40	<int-e>	a purpose
05:24:48	<Inst>	my goal?
05:25:19	<int-e>	yes
05:26:33	<Inst>	just to understand Cabal
05:26:53	<Inst>	I need to look into the parser, but Cabal is beautiful in its own way, a 200k LOC (possibly 100K SLOC) codebase
05:28:05	<int-e>	so how does wondering aobut `import Prelude ()` vs NoImplicitPrelude help you with that?
05:29:30	<Inst>	I'm just trying to assess the quality of the codebase, import Prelude () is a weird idiom
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05:30:12	<int-e>	Well, not really. It's pure Haskell rather than a weird GHC specific extension.
05:30:29	<int-e>	And it avoids clashing identifiers just fine.
05:30:38	<Inst>	the way I understand it, import declarations are not stateful
05:30:54	<Inst>	that is to say, they don't override previous import declarations
05:30:58	<int-e>	(Cabal is old enough that it was originally written to work with other Haskell implementations.)
05:31:07	<Inst>	yeah, UHC is mentioned
05:31:26	<Inst>	but I guess the point is that implicit prelude must be something defined by Haskell report
05:31:36	<Inst>	and import Prelude () overrides the implicit Prelude declaration
05:31:43	<int-e>	There is no previous import of Prelude... Prelude is only implicitely imported if it's not imported explicitly.
05:32:01	<davean>	Inst: Thats specificly covered in the report
05:32:11	<davean>	have you not read the report?
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05:32:46	<Inst>	Honestly, no, I've skimmed it, I used to try to go through Haskell report when I was just starting out
05:33:17	<Inst>	but at that stage, I was unable to parse it profitably, so
05:34:27	<davean>	https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch5.html#x11-1110005.6
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05:35:10	<Inst>	yeah, you're on cabal team
05:35:14	<Inst>	what you do is to import a custom prelude
05:35:53	<int-e>	to what end?
05:36:57	<Inst>	myself or cabal team?
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05:37:39	<int-e>	well you seem to be trying to talk on behalf on the cabal team there
05:37:47	<int-e>	so yourself
05:38:40	<Inst>	"What you do is to import a custom prelude" (They're already importing a custom prelude)
05:38:54	<Inst>	I got confused for a bit because I see use of fmap operator, and there's no explicit import.
05:39:06	<Inst>	Not an imperative, a descriptive statement.
05:39:33	<davean>	You still have to deal with Prelude being implicite. You don't know whats in an arbitrary prelude. This is how you safely work with various haskell implimentations
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05:40:06	<int-e>	Ah, you must be talking about Distribution.Compat.Prelude stuff.
05:41:26	<int-e>	So this is a custom prelude, for coping with the evolution of and different versions of base
05:41:49	<Inst>	I'm not sure if my bringing up this conversation topic is unwelcome?
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05:42:11	<Inst>	Like I said, I find Cabal fascinating, GHC is definitely going to be beyond my ken for quite some time
05:42:30	<Inst>	also, GHC has some interesting totally redundant do keywords
05:42:47	<int-e>	Regardless, there's nothing wrong with or smelly about `import Prelude ()`.
05:43:17	<Inst>	Well, it's my fault, I misunderstood the idiom.
05:44:11	<int-e>	I've used "superfluous" `do` myself for uniformity when writing monadic code.
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05:44:41	<Inst>	I also got recommended to try pandoc code base
05:44:53	<Inst>	as an example of a canonical "this is professional, high-quality Haskell that in theory can be accessible"
05:45:13	<Inst>	cabal project has tautologically adroit usage of cabal,project and *.cabal
05:45:45	<Inst>	https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/blob/master/ghc/Main.hs#146 <---note the do usage here
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05:47:10	<monochrom>	This is interesting. We keep hearing the advice "read some real code and learn from it". I see now what's wrong with that.
05:47:31	<monochrom>	Receivers of that advice interpret it as "in a vacuum".
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05:49:26	<monochrom>	But real code is never in a vacuum. Firstly it serves a purpose (or even multiple purposes) and that affects a lot of choices made. Secondly it depends on what kind of people are intended to be collaborators. Thirdly it also depends on a lot of incidental or even accidental constraints like "this has to work for 5 incompatible compilers". etc etc etc.
05:51:48	<Inst>	That's sort of the "beauty" of it, no? That is to say, you can read and understand the context of the code from the code structure itself.
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05:53:24	<davean>	Inst: Are you sure you're right?
05:53:52	<davean>	Also I figured out your GHC do exmaple, its pretty obvious why it is that way
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05:55:06	<Inst>	i'm assuming it's to make clear that it's quoting a monadic action
05:55:14	<davean>	Nope
05:55:30	<davean>	Inst: your GHC thing first off A) there absolutely is a reason that do is there B) your claim above is somewhat disproven by this example of yours
05:55:49	<davean>	look at the commit that introduces it.
05:56:10	<davean>	that do is vestigial it was required when that code was writen
05:56:22	<davean>	the code has changed, but they didn't restructure other code that had no reason to be touched
05:57:05	<davean>	it use to "exitWith ExitSuccess" after the case.
05:58:03	<davean>	Its vestigial, not redundent
05:59:51	<int-e>	I'm so confused, aren't we talking about this `do`? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/1c1980863810c6b1bbed2ebbcce882a0f9144ade#519f43ef6302b87fec67179ff5343fb9706e9748_113_98
06:00:53	<int-e>	Which really isn't required. (I'd also prefer it to be at the end of the previous line, but whatever)
06:01:33	<davean>	Thats the removal, not the introdxuction, look in the deleted lines
06:01:56	<int-e>	AH
06:01:57	<int-e>	thanks
06:02:37	<Inst>	So, I'll ask the obvious question: why hasn't it been removed?
06:02:48	<int-e>	(not sure why I didn't do that on my own. sigh.)
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06:03:22	<int-e>	because it was there and doesn't hurt
06:03:23	<davean>	Inst: Its formally the same - why make merges hard?
06:04:13	<Inst>	I hope I haven't been too irritating in getting you to educate me.
06:04:14	<int-e>	Could it have been removed with that commit? Sure. But it wasn't.
06:04:34	<int-e>	. o O ( That hope is entirely unfounded. )
06:05:14	<davean>	I mean who would anyone making the change that commit did look for that do to remove it anyway?
06:05:17	<Inst>	Explicitly, I've been irritating with this question?
06:05:22	<davean>	one of the properties of haskell is we don't have to
06:05:33	<int-e>	davean's point explains why it hasn't been removed in the meantime (assuming anyone even noticed it)
06:10:08	<Inst>	I... don't get it, tbh, have I caused offense?
06:10:14	<davean>	Anyway, I think this is a good example of why reading the code alone doesn't work.
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06:10:50	<Inst>	via sclv, I'm told Cabal team is overworked, so I wouldn't have been surprised if QC got cut, and rae I think reported that GHC's code base was on shaky foundations as to why he couldn't move ahead with Dependent Haskell
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06:12:29	<davean>	Inst: I don't think anymore minds your questions
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06:14:20	<Inst>	So, I mean, on one hand, the experience and skill of the collaborators is immense, on the other hand, it's a real world project; i.e, it's closer to a repair shop or lab in operation than "FizzBuzz Enterprise Edition", which is some overpolished toy intended as a joke.
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06:18:25	<davean>	I would not call "FizzBuzz Enterprise Edition" polished
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06:23:54	<Inst>	What would you use as an example instead, then?
06:24:42	<Inst>	And, if it's not too irritating, is there any project / library you might recommend as a platonic ideal of a Haskell project?
06:25:17	<davean>	"FizzBuzz Enterprise Edition" is litterly miss application of patterns people see
06:27:49	<institor>	fizzbuzz enterprise edition is like using a centrifuge to prepare a solution of sugar and tap water
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06:28:28	<monochrom>	Wait, so this Fizzbuzz Enterprise Edition is not made up?
06:28:41	<institor>	https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
06:29:04	<institor>	i've poked around this repo multiple times and i still can't tell where the actual logic is
06:29:55	<jackdk>	My favourite over-engineered fizzbuzz is https://themonadreader.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/fizzbuzz.pdf , which also manages to be quite instructive
06:29:56	<davean>	Its a litteral joke
06:31:15	<davean>	"So badly done its funny"
06:31:23	<monochrom>	Heh
06:32:12	<Inst>	I don't know Java, I had heard of the package but assumed it was overengineered and overpolished, in reality, it's only overly contrived.
06:32:41	<institor>	why not read the XMonad source or something
06:33:01	<institor>	it's written in haskell, it's not a very large codebase, and it's built to be user-extensible so you can actually work with the codebase and do something with it
06:33:09	<Inst>	Would you recommend the XMonad project, then? I had heard they don't have the labor available to move it to Wayland, unfortunately.
06:33:10	<institor>	instead of passively consuming the source
06:33:36	<Inst>	Ehhh, in my case, I'm still trying to build a parser for my project for cabal files.
06:34:16	<Inst>	Exact parser, rather. That means that I need to understand how the cabal parser works, since it was reported that it's, ummm, unpredictable with the rarely-used braces option.
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06:34:46	<Inst>	So reading over Cabal, as monochro m mentioned, I get an idea of the context in which the parser exists.
06:35:02	<institor>	i don't know if cabal is really exemplary software
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06:35:26	<Inst>	Or, if it's reasonable for me to aspire to contribute to it within the span of a year.
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06:36:48	<institor>	have you gone through the issue tracker
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06:37:48	<Inst>	Or the pull release queue?
06:37:55	<Inst>	ugh
06:38:02	<Inst>	pull request
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06:38:16	<institor>	sometimes they label good starter issues
06:38:19	<institor>	just pick one and go with it
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06:38:40	<Inst>	Thanks for the suggestion.
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06:53:08	<Inst>	but, honestly, despite any issues with Cabal codebase, I still find it beautiful
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07:02:38	<sm>	that's the spirit!
07:03:05	<sm>	#hackage is where the Cabal devs hang out, by the way
07:04:16	<Inst>	I'm mirrored via Matrix.
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08:11:39	<Inst>	this is honestly so fascinating
08:12:37	<Inst>	here, someone's using long type variables idiom, whereas in other parts of the codebase, it's traditional haskell single letter type variables
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08:56:43	<institor>	https://degoes.net/articles/insufficiently-polymorphic
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09:06:58	<[exa]>	"descriptive variable names are a code smell" ok whoa I will need to confront pythonfolk with this
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09:09:10	<dminuoso>	[exa]: Yeah, its why I use lsp-mode to automatically rename identifiers to random 3 letter combinations.
09:09:20	<dminuoso>	Ever since it stopped smelling in my office.
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09:10:08	<int-e>	(well, former office, they fired me because nobody could make sense of my code)
09:10:19	<Inst>	also, https://contributors.scala-lang.org/t/is-john-de-goes-a-respected-member-of-the-scala-community/3659
09:10:20	<probie>	Why do you need random 3 letter combinations? You've got all the alphabets in unicode to work with
09:10:53	<int-e>	the irony is that we don't even pick random single letter identifiers
09:11:15	<int-e>	f for function, x or a for a value... n m i j k for integers
09:11:38	<int-e>	(a bit like Fortran... god is real unless declared integer)
09:12:10	<int-e>	(I barely know enough Fortran to understand that joke)
09:12:32	<probie>	but also k for continuations - we've got to keep it ambiguous
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09:16:41	<int-e>	Well, the point that when you have a generic function then it is often helpful to write it with general types rather than the concrete types you need is valid.
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09:24:13	<Inst>	actually, sorry
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09:24:44	<Inst>	i got confused about john de goes; it turns out consensus on him is ambivalent and JDG is just in a feud with Travis Brown
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09:39:36	<mastarija>	Can anyone help me with encoding my recursive Haskell type into Dhall?
09:39:43	<mastarija>	I have this code over here: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/vCPvIcQg
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09:40:15	<mastarija>	Basically, I have `Charge` that's recursive. I've succesfully used `Fix` to encode it to `Dhall`.
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09:40:40	<mastarija>	Problem is, how do I encode and decode things that aren't recursive but they have `Charge` inside of them.
09:40:57	<mastarija>	I have this type `Q c` that takes the `Charge` representation.
09:41:09	<mastarija>	And I have problem expressing it in Dhall.
09:42:25	<mastarija>	I can successfully extract `Charge` from a `Dhall` file that only returns `Charge`, but I don't know how to decode `Q` from a `Dhall` file that's supposed to return `Q` that has `Charge` within.
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10:38:03	<tomsmeding>	mastarija: not too familiar with Dhall, but in Haskell land, could you not just go 'data ChargeF r = ... ; newtype Charge = Charge (Fix ChargeF) ; data Q = ... Charge ...'?
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10:38:29	<tomsmeding>	or data Q c = ... ; and then 'Q Charge' is perfectly valid
10:39:18	<mastarija>	Yeah. That's another problem. Right now I'm more concerned about how to express `Q` in Dhall, I think I'm getting closer to the solution. I actually got it working, now I just need to create a few utilities to make construction easier.
10:40:05	<mastarija>	Basically, instead of a list of `Charge`s, I need to provide a list of functions `Charge Type -> (Fix : ChargeF Charge -> Charge) -> Charge`.
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11:59:24	<dminuoso>	Switching from data to newtype for something, would PVP mandate a major version bump?
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12:02:06	<lortabac>	dminuoso: it looks like a breaking change to me. Someone might be relying on newtype-specific tools for that type (Coerce etc.)
12:02:46	<lortabac>	ah sorry it's in the opposite direction (data -> newtype)
12:03:51	<dminuoso>	Yeah. Ill add the additional information, that while the constructor is exported, its content is only ever produced by my library without any bottoms (assuming lack of bugs). At best it seems it could have only some performance implications
12:03:52	<lortabac>	I'd still consider it a breaking change, even though the probability of breakage is extremely low
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12:24:44	<Inst>	i hope you don't mind, but we do have function dependency tree visualizers up, right?
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12:41:42	<Taneb>	dminuoso: does the type in question have a Generic instance
12:41:49	<dminuoso>	Taneb: No
12:42:00	<dminuoso>	And no Data instance either
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12:42:07	<Taneb>	And is the constructor exported?
12:42:09	<dminuoso>	And actually, I was wrong. Previously the constructor was not even exported.
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12:51:58	<Taneb>	Then I'm pretty sure that's not breaking
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13:19:11	<L29Ah>	how do i ask cabal what packages do i need to install to satisfy the dependency list of a .cabal package?
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13:21:44	<dminuoso>	L29Ah: Mmm. I always type `cabal build`, ^C when it starts building, and then inspect cabal-plan.
13:21:55	<dminuoso>	There's probably a few more elegant ways, but its a way at least.
13:23:49	<L29Ah>	dminuoso: it won't start building as i have offline mode enabled
13:24:03	<L29Ah>	it will complain about a single missing package and then quit, and i want them all!
13:24:52	<haskellbridge>	<sm> cabal build --dry-run
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13:29:25	<L29Ah>	no effect
13:30:14	<dminuoso>	L29Ah: Will it generate a build plan?
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13:31:37	<L29Ah>	dminuoso: it just fails at the first unknown package it encounters
13:31:50	<dminuoso>	L29Ah: Yes thats fine.
13:32:04	<L29Ah>	it doesn't list them all
13:32:15	<dminuoso>	Have you tried `cabal-plan` like I suggested above?
13:32:33	<dminuoso>	The only point of causing `cabal build`, is because it spits out its generated build plan inside dist-newstyle
13:32:36	<dminuoso>	Even if the build fails.
13:32:46	<dminuoso>	You either look at it manually, or use `cabal-plan` to inspect it.
13:32:48	<tomsmeding>	(or inspect dist-newstyle/cache/plan.json manually)
13:33:16	<tomsmeding>	doesn't cabal emit that build plan also if you do `cabal freeze`? Of course that also writes a freeze file
13:33:23	<L29Ah>	ah sorry i missed that it's a command
13:33:23	<dminuoso>	Yes it does.
13:33:31	<dminuoso>	L29Ah: No worry.
13:33:59	<tomsmeding>	cabal freeze might be a bit neater than 'cabal build; ^C' if you already have a freeze file :p
13:34:12	<tomsmeding>	oh, and also, the freeze file will of course also contain all the dependencies!
13:34:39	<tomsmeding>	without needing an external tool (cabal-plan) or to inspect a big json document manually
13:34:51	<tomsmeding>	L29Ah: ^
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13:35:01	<dminuoso>	cabal-plan is really yummy though.
13:35:23	<dminuoso>	Its probably my favourite haskell tool.
13:35:53	<tomsmeding>	if L29Ah is running cabal with --offline they're probably in a situation where less external tools is also better
13:40:34	<dminuoso>	That's a fair point
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13:57:18	<exarkun>	I used cabal-plan for the first time a few days ago - it didn't generate a build plan for me, it only consumed the build plan cabal wrote. Was I using it wrong?
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13:57:43	<tomsmeding>	no
13:57:53	<tomsmeding>	that's the intended behaviour
13:58:54	<exarkun>	okay, great, thanks
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15:59:07	<kuribas>	Would it be safe to run accelerate for a production project?
15:59:26	<kuribas>	Like time series calculations?
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17:03:25	<tomsmeding>	@tell kuribas safe in what way?
17:03:25	<lambdabot>	Consider it noted.
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17:38:34	<tomsmeding>	@tell kuribas The cpu backend (accelerate-llvm-native) is solid, the gpu backend (accelerate-llvm-ptx) works decently but for larger programs it tends to crash somewhere relating the nvidia gpu driver (if I remember correctly), and we haven't been able to figure out what happens
17:38:34	<lambdabot>	Consider it noted.
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18:13:02	<yin>	what's the canonical way of doing `[a -> a] -> a -> a` ?
18:13:20	tomsmeding	always does foldr (.) id
18:13:30	<yin>	tomsmeding: elegant
18:13:41	<erisco>	head
18:13:44	<tomsmeding>	I mean you can always getEndo . foldMap Endo if you are so inclined :p
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18:15:54	<EvanR>	> head [] x
18:15:56	<lambdabot>	*Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
18:16:18	<EvanR>	I want my money back
18:17:56	<tomsmeding>	yin: if you're using hlint, beware of hlint being condescending about 'foldr (.) id (map ... l)'
18:18:58	<tomsmeding>	no, 'foldr ((.) . f) id l' is not clearer than 'foldr (.) id (map f l)', and yes I did need to think >10sec before being reasonably sure that ((.) . f) is the right expression
18:19:15	<erisco>	EvanR, my apologies. foldr const id
18:19:37	<tomsmeding>	can remove the foldr
18:20:13	hugo	imagines a good functional lanuage which doesn't look like someone rolled their head through the specal keys
18:20:35	<tomsmeding>	haskell can be like that if you care about readability
18:20:39	<tomsmeding>	hlint evidently does not :p
18:20:49	<EvanR>	the readable haskell movement
18:20:55	<EvanR>	I'm card carrying
18:21:04	<yin>	tomsmeding: i have a huuuge .hlint.yaml ;)
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18:21:17	<tomsmeding>	to wit also that '(\x -> f x + 3) <$> something' is not more readable than 'do { x <- something ; return (f x + 3) }'
18:21:35	<tomsmeding>	yin: the first thing I do after installing HLS is disabling hlint
18:21:39	<monochrom>	Sapir-Whorf implies that every language rolls your head through its special keys.
18:21:52	<monochrom>	Every language. No exception.
18:22:14	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: that's one for your tautologies page
18:22:15	<monochrom>	Every language brainwashes you. Do not think that any of them is "natural".
18:22:20	<tomsmeding>	also holds for languages without special keys
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18:22:23	<tomsmeding>	it's just a no-op then
18:22:46	tomsmeding	. o O ( COBOL )
18:23:12	<monochrom>	COBOL's special key is clumsy English and in all caps.
18:23:31	hugo	SELECT's `COBOL` FROM TABLES
18:23:43	<monochrom>	Plus some random requirement on compulsory indentation.
18:23:47	<tomsmeding>	hot take: applescript is cobol tried again
18:24:07	<tomsmeding>	still clumsy English, not all caps any more
18:24:35	<monochrom>	Actually I write the <$> more often now.
18:24:47	<tomsmeding>	also if that makes you write a lambda before the <$> ?
18:24:56	<tomsmeding>	if it was just 'return (f x)', I would also write f <$>
18:24:59	<monochrom>	I can agree that both forms are on par.
18:25:02	<erisco>	You know, it does irritate me that "readable" (and most -ables) is so nonobviously subjective
18:25:28	<monochrom>	Well that's why I brought up Sapir-Whorf.
18:25:46	<monochrom>	You have been brainwashed by your first language, therefore anything different is "unreadable".
18:25:49	<tomsmeding>	(I also use lambda plus <$> sometimes, but only if there is some other reason to fit the thing on one line -- perhaps because it's one of 15 of such lines, and it's good to have the whole thing be compact)
18:25:50	<erisco>	It is a common thing I hear when using anything other than the most popular of choices, be it languages or code libraries.
18:26:04	<monochrom>	In fact I have banned "readable" and "unreadable" from my vocab.
18:26:17	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: fair
18:26:18	<Rembane>	monochrom: What do you use instead?
18:26:53	<[Leary]>	tomsmeding: `something <&> \x -> f x + 3`.
18:26:58	<monochrom>	I use "comprehensible" and sometimes clarify with "by the TAs".
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18:27:17	<tomsmeding>	comprehensible is precisely as bad as readable
18:27:25	<tomsmeding>	it's the qualifier that improves things
18:27:34	<monochrom>	Well that's why I add "by the TAs".
18:27:36	<tomsmeding>	[Leary]: hmm
18:27:55	<erisco>	I just gently suggest they mean "familiar" and "unfamiliar" rather than "readable" and "unreadable"
18:28:07	<tomsmeding>	erisco: good that you do that gently
18:28:17	<monochrom>	And I assure you, when the day comes that "comprehensible" is also widely abused, I will switch to another word.
18:29:00	<hugo>	erisco: I hear what you say, but consider invoke(([ws] & qn(([ws] & 'f')) & (([ws] & '(') \| nop) & [ws] & ([ws] & string([String])) & [ws] & ',' & [ws] & [ws] & ('{' \| nop) & [ws] & qn(([ws] & 'x')) & [ws] & '=>' & [ws] & [ws] & '1' & (([ws] & ',') \| nop) & [ws] & qn(([ws] & 'y')) & [ws] & '=>' & [ws] & [ws] & '2' & (([ws] & ',') \| nop) & [ws] & ('}' \| nop) & (([ws] & ',') \| nop) & (([ws] & ')') \|
18:29:00	<hugo>	nop) & (([ws] & nop) \| nop)))
18:29:00	<hugo>	It's familiar to me, but not to you
18:29:08	<dolio>	Why does hlint suggest manually fusing that? There's a whole framework that exists so you don't have to.
18:29:58	<tomsmeding>	hugo: no clue what language/library that is, but it looks like a grammar, and I'm confused by the nops
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18:30:43	<hugo>	tomsmeding: I wrote a parser combinator in Python. The nops mean parse nothing and succeed
18:30:58	<tomsmeding>	right, that's what I expected
18:31:09	<hugo>	My point was that it's hard to read for most of you, but I have stared at it so much that I can read it rather quickly
18:31:12	<tomsmeding>	meaning that ([ws] & nop) is just [ws]
18:31:19	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Indeed
18:31:36	<hugo>	All the extra '& nop' is due to how it's generated
18:32:30	<tomsmeding>	I think it's readable enough; I don't know what qn is, nor invoke, but that's relatively benign I'd expect. It's just way too verbose. In my experience, I find it easier to read something the more compactly it is presented, as long as I can intuitively read that notation
18:32:45	<tomsmeding>	(this may mean that the more familiar you get with the topic, the more compact representations you desire)
18:33:02	<monochrom>	You know, "foo \| nop" can be refactored to "optional foo" by defining "optional p = p \| nop".
18:33:19	<monochrom>	which is what Control.Applicative did.
18:33:24	<tomsmeding>	here, when familiar with regular expressions, there is very little new stuff to learn, so a _way_ more compact representation would be more readable to me
18:33:31	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: this is python
18:33:52	<EvanR>	haskell is unreadable by some people not because they can't read it but because they won't xD
18:33:56	<tomsmeding>	hugo: is 'qn' optional, perhaps?
18:34:00	<hugo>	I confess that this is a bad example, it's the expanded form, which makes it lessreadable
18:34:01	<tomsmeding>	as in "question"
18:34:03	<monochrom>	Well yeah, but it's still legitimate to pose the refactoring challenge.
18:34:19	<erisco>	hugo, I wouldn't be saying your grammar is unreadable. I might suggest introducing more named production rules to break that up though
18:34:32	<hugo>	monochrom: foo \| nop is already represented in the source as optional(foo), see my previous poit
18:34:45	<monochrom>	OK cool.
18:35:38	<hugo>	tomsmeding: qn I belive is a "qualified name", the example parser puppet code
18:35:56	<monochrom>	Do you support recursion? p ::= '(' p ')' \| nop
18:35:59	<tomsmeding>	ah, so it's a subgrammar
18:36:28	<hugo>	But it's good to hear that my dumps are "readable". You really don't want to see the non-prettified grammar
18:36:34	<tomsmeding>	:D
18:36:43	<tomsmeding>	they're comprehensible, not very readable
18:36:44	<tomsmeding>	;)
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18:37:39	<hugo>	monochrom: Recursion is supported, the problem being that lazy evaluation is achived through local lambdas, which means that it it's non-trivial to compare recursive steps
18:37:52	<hugo>	(I'm very open to solutions)
18:38:16	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Is there a difference between a grammar and a sub-grammar? Rather than how large it is?
18:38:53	<tomsmeding>	hugo: no, just that qn is apparently not a builtin primitive grammar construct, but rather a function that constructs another grammar
18:38:57	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Nice to hear that they are comprehensible. I personally feed them through a rainbow-parenthesis script to understand them
18:39:02	<tomsmeding>	:p
18:39:14	<tomsmeding>	the parentheses are fairly flat here, vim % was sufficient for me
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18:39:45	<tomsmeding>	re recursion, python is imperative and mutable state is no issue, so perhaps put a unique generated ID in every grammar AST node
18:40:01	<tomsmeding>	then you can detect recursion by finding cycles in the graph, using IDs as node identifiers
18:40:03	<EvanR>	every language recognized by the subgrammar of g is recognized by g!
18:40:17	<tomsmeding>	what is "the" subgrammar of g :p
18:40:22	<EvanR>	s/the/a
18:40:30	<tomsmeding>	not true
18:40:42	<EvanR>	not to be confused with the subgenius
18:40:43	<tomsmeding>	let g be the regex abcd
18:40:51	<tomsmeding>	bc is a subgrammar of g
18:40:57	<monochrom>	Wait, are you just making a joke that references a definition of infinite sets?
18:41:00	<erisco>	sublanguage versus subgrammar
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18:41:09	<erisco>	though I haven't heard of "subgrammar" before
18:41:12	<hugo>	tomsmeding: 'qn' is technically not a sub-grammar, since it parser it's contents as given (it just changes the output). [ws] (and everything within brackes) is however a subgrammar
18:41:18	<Rembane>	Does this imply that supergrammars exist?
18:41:29	<exarkun>	I think my grammars are super.
18:41:29	<tomsmeding>	hugo: I see
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18:41:41	<exarkun>	wait, that doesn't sound right ...
18:42:16	<monochrom>	Clearly, Σ* is the super gramma of them all
18:42:17	<erisco>	Would a subgrammar define a language of substrings?
18:42:33	<monochrom>	And Gaia is the super grandma of them all.
18:42:39	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Reganding the rather flat parethesis, this is from a rather simple example, and I have already flattened the tree quite a bit in this output
18:43:02	<tomsmeding>	my (self-coined, to be fair) usage of subgrammar was intended to mean a subexpression of the grammar
18:43:21	<tomsmeding>	ah :p
18:43:41	<hugo>	For example, if I haven't cleaned up [ws] it would expand to string(([ws] & ('always'
18:43:42	<hugo>	\| ("'" & ['a', 'l', 'w', 'a', 'y', 's'] & "'")
18:43:44	<hugo>	\| ('"' & [rich_char(c='a'), rich_char(c='l'), rich_char(c='w'), rich_char(c='a'), rich_char(c='y'), rich_char(c='s')] & '"'))))
18:43:48	<hugo>	GLHF
18:43:48	<erisco>	tomsmeding, is it closed?
18:43:56	<tomsmeding>	beauty
18:44:24	<monochrom>	Actually, the linebreaks make that more readable...
18:44:24	<tomsmeding>	erisco: what does closed mean? It looks like these grammars don't have variables or anything of the sort
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18:45:15	<erisco>	tomsmeding, that all production rules referenced in the subgrammar are in the subgrammar
18:46:23	<tomsmeding>	right, yes that's what I was assuming
18:46:44	<tomsmeding>	note that qn here is a function, presumably Grammar -> Grammar, and the subgrammar in question would be qn(g'), not qn
18:47:08	<tomsmeding>	and in expanded form it's unclear whether there are even local definitions at all, so whether scoping is a thing at all
18:47:13	<erisco>	I guess there is a topology to grammars
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18:48:43	<hugo>	The line breaks in my example are manually added by me
18:48:44	<ncf>	is there?
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18:49:01	<monochrom>	Darn.
18:49:05	<hugo>	The definition (from a grammar persepctive) of qn is:
18:49:26	<tomsmeding>	hugo: are you sick of us already :p
18:50:15	<hugo>	Sorry, I was busy locking up the definition
18:50:29	<monochrom>	tomsmeding: I teach my students both "pure (\x y -> ...) <> m1 <> m2" and "m1 >>= \x -> m2 >>= \y -> pure (...)", and let them choose which one they prefer, I just require them to be able to understand both when they see it. I don't teach them do-notation.
18:50:49	<tomsmeding>	was with you until "I don't teach them do-notation"
18:50:56	<monochrom>	haha
18:51:00	<hugo>	Let's just say `qn(_, x) -> x`
18:51:01	<erisco>	it's unreadable, is why
18:51:03	<hugo>	Or the other way around
18:51:06	<Rembane>	monochrom: What has do-notation ever done to you?
18:51:17	<hugo>	All it does is attach metadata to the attached parser
18:51:18	<tomsmeding>	genuinely, I also like my students to understand the more basic definitions
18:51:33	<tomsmeding>	hugo: ... qn takes 1 argument in your example grammar
18:51:38	<tomsmeding>	I see
18:52:03	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Then the gammar is `qn(x) -> x`, since qn only attaches metadata
18:52:06	<monochrom>	My first time teaching this stuff, I taught do-notation. Then both TAs and students who understood recommended not teaching do-notation.
18:52:23	<tomsmeding>	hugo: right
18:52:25	<hugo>	(I know this technically doesn't type check, but it works out i my non-typed Scheme
18:52:28	<hugo>	)
18:52:34	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: interesting
18:52:45	<tomsmeding>	what was the motivation for that?
18:53:15	<EvanR>	starting with do notation is like starting to teach C by writing everything in macros
18:53:17	<hugo>	do-notation, and bind in general is for from trivial, I didn't understand it propertly until I re-implemented it in scheme
18:53:26	<tomsmeding>	EvanR: I never said _start_ with do-notation
18:53:28	<hugo>	EvanR: a bit like that
18:53:51	<monochrom>	I guess it's again "the basics first".
18:54:17	<hugo>	However; sometimes when people tell me that Haskell is "impossible", I show them 'main = println "Hello, World!"'
18:54:28	<tomsmeding>	*putStrLn
18:54:46	<monochrom>	My course also has higher priorities than teaching more Haskell, so we may as well save some time by skipping do-notation. Only >>= and pure are strictly necessary.
18:54:46	<EvanR>	% print "Hello World"
18:54:46	<yahb2>	"Hello World"
18:54:47	<hugo>	tomsmeding: I have written to many other languages recently
18:54:50	<tomsmeding>	(I know that's not relevant to the point :p)
18:54:53	<monochrom>	Hell, I don't even teach IO.
18:55:07	<EvanR>	IO is overrated
18:55:09	<monochrom>	Instead, we have monadic parsing!
18:55:28	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: right, your course sounds more theoretical than ours. We have a different course ("languages & compilers") that does lots of parsing stuff, including monadic parsing
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18:55:39	<hugo>	Did any previous question pertain to me that I missed?
18:55:46	<tomsmeding>	the "functional programming" course is slightly more applied, and comes first
18:55:51	<EvanR>	but one complaint I heard was from someone who heard that haskell is bad at I/O and only good for non-I/O
18:55:56	<tomsmeding>	hugo: I suggested something about the recursion stuff
18:55:59	<EvanR>	so not teaching it doesn't help that
18:56:27	<hugo>	tomsmeding: "Motivation for that?" Or another post?
18:56:35	<monochrom>	My course is not a Haskell course. (At least, not supposed to.) It's a "principles of programming languages" course.
18:56:36	<erisco>	ncf, I guess starting nonterminal is important and I am not sure what to make of that
18:57:00	<tomsmeding>	hugo: re recursion, python is imperative and mutable state is no issue, so perhaps put a unique generated ID in every grammar AST node. then you can detect recursion by finding cycles in the graph, using IDs as node identifiers
18:57:16	<tomsmeding>	monochrom: see, that's the difference; ours is outspokenly a haskell course
18:57:28	<tomsmeding>	then one cannot really get around teaching do-notation, because after all, that's what people use
18:57:47	<monochrom>	So I only need to cover enough Haskell to enable me talking about types, type inference, parametricity, recursive descent parsing, denotational semantics...
18:58:37	<monochrom>	I also announce at the beginning "Haskell is a practical language, it just doesn't look like it in my course because I use it for academic purposes".
18:58:39	<tomsmeding>	we have a "concepts of programming language design" course, which is a mandatory master's course for the CS master, and also uses haskell but doesn't use monads at all
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18:59:29	<hugo>	tomsmeding: I haven't looked deeper into finding recursion loops yet. I chose my current stack due to python having the libraries I needed. Whenever I try mutable state I lose track of what I am doing. So my Python is basically (bad) Haskell at this point
18:59:35	<monochrom>	Oh, in fact, this year I managed to ban the words "monad", "applicative", "functor" until the last lecture. :)
18:59:39	<hugo>	(don't say anything about my analogy)
18:59:41	<tomsmeding>	hugo: lol
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19:00:28	<EvanR>	you can ease people into do notation by first teaching don't notation
19:00:34	<EvanR>	it's simpler
19:00:41	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Haskell isn't about Monads, but the monad abstraction is one of the best abstractions I have seen
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19:00:56	<hugo>	EvanR: What is don't notation?
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19:01:02	<tomsmeding>	@hackage acme-dont
19:01:02	<lambdabot>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-dont
19:01:03	<monochrom>	That's like "you can ease people into static typing by first teaching the () type" :)
19:01:25	<EvanR>	hey I have seen confusion about the () type
19:01:31	<EvanR>	they sometimes think it's an empty list
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19:01:54	<EvanR>	or the same thing as Void because C
19:02:04	<hugo>	As a teacher aid for bachelors, I have seen most confusions first hand
19:02:24	<hugo>	EvanR: () and (C's) void are the same thing
19:02:40	<tomsmeding>	but not the same as Void
19:03:06	<monochrom>	You can fix that by "there is no Void in C".
19:03:29	<hugo>	A void procedure in C never returns a value, while a `-> ()` function in Haskell always returns a null value. 0! = 1!
19:03:49	<monochrom>	I do sometimes grill my students with "it's the year 2023 of our lord, why do you still treat programming languages as case-insenstive!"
19:04:23	<hugo>	monochrom: What are you talking about?
19:04:30	<monochrom>	"Void" vs "void"
19:04:41	<hugo>	go home
19:04:53	<tomsmeding>	% :i Data.Void.Void
19:04:53	<yahb2>	type Data.Void.Void :: * ; data Data.Void.Void ; -- Defined in ‘Data.Void’ ; instance [safe] Eq Data.Void.Void -- Defined in ‘Data.Void’ ; instance [safe] Ord Data.Void.Void -- Defined in ‘Data....
19:05:07	<monochrom>	If you write your C code like "file *f = FOPEN(..." is it not going to compile, no?
19:06:26	<EvanR>	we should go further and make bold italic and underline result in different identifiers
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19:07:08	<geekosaur>	inb4 esolang using only attributes
19:07:15	<hugo>	1. When did I write "Void", 2. Have you seen PEP 3131
19:07:40	<monochrom>	EvanR wrote "Void". That's all.
19:07:42	<EvanR>	see () causing confusion
19:07:47	<EvanR>	again
19:08:14	<monochrom>	I am OK with "() and void are the same" 99.9% of the time.
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19:08:44	<hugo>	I usually tell my (python) students that a procedure without a return return "Nothing", and don't go into details that "Nothing" is the literal "None" object untli they ask."
19:09:57	<EvanR>	C sucks because its own calling convention ensures something is returned, you just can't use it
19:10:00	<hugo>	monochrom: Only diffenence I see between "()" and "void" is that one can be asignable to a variable, while the other can't. But what should you do with '()
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19:10:49	<hugo>	EvanR: C's calling convention just returns, void means that no value is return
19:10:59	<EvanR>	that you know of
19:11:08	<hugo>	a = [void returnig function] is undefined
19:11:32	<hugo>	Anything you have seen is undefined, which means that all bets are off
19:11:49	<EvanR>	undefined is javascript, that's something else
19:12:01	<monochrom>	haha
19:12:15	<erisco>	Unit in PureScript is anything. I guess like C!
19:13:21	<hugo>	EvanR: Have you read the C standard?
19:13:30	<EvanR>	we are in the wrong room for that
19:14:01	<hugo>	EvanR: You are trying to pull a Hayman here
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19:14:43	<EvanR>	calling conventions isn't in the standards, aiui
19:15:12	<EvanR>	that's implementation details
19:16:07	<hugo>	The (nonexistent) value of a void expression (an expression that has type void) shall not
19:16:09	<hugo>	be used in any way, and implicit or explicit conversions (except to void) shall not be
19:16:11	<hugo>	applied to such an expression. If an expression of any other type is evaluated as a void
19:16:13	<hugo>	expression, its value or designator is discarded. (A void expression is evaluated for its
19:16:15	<hugo>	side effects.)
19:16:17	<hugo>	C11, ISO 9899:201x
19:16:23	<EvanR>	WRONG ROOM
19:16:52	<geekosaur>	then why were you talking about calling conventions?
19:16:59	<hugo>	So the difference is that void expressions in C can't be checked, and '() expressions in Haskell is worthless to check
19:17:09	<erisco>	pretty sure Haskell has a C FFI
19:17:44	<EvanR>	there may be not much to say about () and void and Void when you get down to brass tacks, so I guess we can move on!
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19:19:21	<erisco>	Pascal had this all figured out when it separated procedures from functions
19:19:43	<monochrom>	Pascal followed Algol in this.
19:20:10	<monochrom>	C also took a lot from Algol, but they decided to deviate from this one.
19:20:20	<EvanR>	what's the difference between a procedure and a function
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19:21:04	<monochrom>	But Algol's 2nd crime was "function but with side effects".
19:22:44	<erisco>	EvanR, functions have returns, procedures do not
19:23:02	<EvanR>	"interesting"
19:23:42	<hugo>	erisco: *procedures may not
19:23:55	<monochrom>	My unpopular opinion is that we should use the word "procedure" throughout, and accept that some procedures take 0 parameters, and some procedures don't have return values. I don't mind any syntax or reserved word for them, but that should be the fundamental concept.
19:24:41	<monochrom>	So C got that basically right except they used the word "function" throughout.
19:24:54	<hugo>	monochrom: My take is that functions are "pure" functions, as in mathematics, while procedures are the programming construct often called functions
19:24:58	<erisco>	if it unclutters the meaning of "functional programming" then I'm down
19:25:01	<monochrom>	But that's my point. "function but with side effects" is just illogical.
19:25:33	<Hecate>	and yet
19:25:38	<hugo>	monochrom: The scheme world is with you, they use procedure just as you sugests
19:25:39	<Hecate>	I write these for a living :D
19:26:41	<monochrom>	Correction: ... accept that procedures can take 0 or more parameters, and have 0 or 1 return values.
19:27:02	<erisco>	What does Golang have then?
19:27:15	<hugo>	Why can't a procedure have multiple return values?
19:27:28	<geekosaur>	golang's do
19:27:48	<geekosaur>	then again it just looks like a tuple without the parens
19:27:49	<Hecate>	geekosaur: I've always been surprised by this, isn't it a tuple that is returned?
19:27:59	<Hecate>	okay yeah, like Python's?
19:28:04	<monochrom>	One point being instead of the stupid division "0 return value => procedure, 1 return value => function", and doubling down on that error with "oh functions can have side effects too so they are secretly procedures".
19:28:26	<EvanR>	can I have procedures sometimes return 2 values, please
19:28:38	<Hecate>	EvanR: only if you eat your vegetables
19:28:38	<hugo>	The call stack is flexible, and can return multiple values natively
19:28:46	<EvanR>	why is that too much to ask
19:29:00	<hugo>	EvanR: Change to a better language
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19:29:06	<monochrom>	There are two known meanings for "multiple return values". But neither was in Algol so I will pass.
19:29:07	<EvanR>	don't say python
19:29:18	<geekosaur>	don't say golang
19:29:37	<hugo>	Worth noting, most procedural languagse returning 0 values actually return a value (See Python and it's 'None' returns)
19:30:35	<hugo>	geekosaur: Doesn't golang have true multiple return?
19:31:14	<Hecate>	hugo: no it's a tuple
19:31:15	<Hecate>	https://gobyexample.com/multiple-return-values
19:31:18	<Hecate>	(int, int)
19:31:20	<Hecate>	that's a tuple
19:31:30	<EvanR>	I think my gripe was "better language"
19:31:44	<erisco>	Hecate, but you cannot assign a multiple return to a variable
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19:32:08	<monochrom>	No one wants to ask me "you said '2nd crime' so what's the 1st crime?"? :)
19:32:16	<hugo>	Hecate: "Go has built-in support for multiple return values", are you sure it's a tuple
19:32:24	<geekosaur>	right, in haskell-speak you must deconstruct it immediately
19:32:33	<geekosaur>	that strikes me more as multiple return than as tuple
19:32:38	<hugo>	erisco: You are talking syntax
19:32:54	<Hecate>	erisco: ah yes indeed
19:33:00	<Hecate>	so, it's a shittier tuple
19:33:02	<Hecate>	incredible
19:33:07	<monochrom>	Wait, is that just like Lisp's multiple return values?
19:33:11	<geekosaur>	that's golang for you
19:33:15	<hugo>	Hecate: It's a faster "tuple"
19:33:25	<Hecate>	hugo: faster on which plan?
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19:33:54	<Hecate>	memory layout can't be that different from a tuple in a similar language
19:33:57	<hugo>	Multiple return values doesn't incur an heap allocation
19:34:05	<hugo>	And hap allocations are "slow"
19:34:10	<Hecate>	hugo: where did you read that?
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19:34:41	<hugo>	I'm actually in search for a good source that heap allocations are slow, currently I only have the general word of mouth
19:35:02	<EvanR>	heap allocation doesn't necessarily mean malloc
19:35:05	<monochrom>	I agree that the heap is more expensive.
19:35:22	<monochrom>	If anything, there is GC to worry about later.
19:35:44	<EvanR>	unless you're UrWeb
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19:35:53	<monochrom>	In principle, GC turns a linear-time linear-space algorithm to quadratic time.
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19:36:09	<dolio>	You don't need to distinguish returning tuples and 'multiple returns' to make things efficient.
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19:36:59	<hugo>	Technically you can have "wide returns", but we are "unfortunally" stuck with the calling conventions of our host systems
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19:37:47	<tomsmeding>	_tuple_ doesn't necessarily mean heap allocation, unless you're haskell and the function is not inlined so it has to conform to GHC's calling convention which is heap-allocated
19:38:13	<tomsmeding>	to make things even more muddled :D
19:38:19	<dolio>	You don't need to inline, either.
19:38:28	<tomsmeding>	in haskell you do, right?
19:38:35	<monochrom>	Yeah, even more muddled because sometimes GHC can optimize that away. (And sometimes not.)
19:38:53	<tomsmeding>	I mean, worker-wrapper exists, but then the wrapper needs to be inlined for the scheme to work
19:38:59	<EvanR>	using multiple returns in C-- ?
19:39:01	<tomsmeding>	(no, not that Scheme)
19:39:08	<Hecate>	hohai tomsmeding
19:39:14	<tomsmeding>	hai!
19:39:26	<hugo>	(values 1 2)
19:39:27	<dolio>	I mean, the compiler has to keep track of this stuff.
19:39:32	<monochrom>	But all the more important for what dolio said. Separate the denotational semantics from optimizing the operational semantics already.
19:39:39	<tomsmeding>	I left the conversation when it was about Void, then I took a shower, now it's about multiple return
19:39:41	<dolio>	That doesn't mean the surface syntax needs it.
19:39:57	<dolio>	Or, that most people need to worry about it in the surface syntax at least.
19:40:04	<hugo>	But we are stuck in a world of actual compilers, in theory we could live in a multiple-return-world
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19:40:41	<EvanR>	unless we're writing in asm compilers are great
19:40:41	<dolio>	You only need to force users to care about all this stuff if you're unwilling to make the compiler keep track of it.
19:40:41	<hugo>	Multiple returns is the same discussion as 0 returns
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19:42:07	<monochrom>	I'm going to be arrogant and divisive and say Pike ≠ SPJ so Pike knew no better than letting this detail leak to the supposedly high-level language.
19:42:26	<hugo>	tomsmeding: Ayr you multiple people? You "brack" was 16s long
19:42:37	<dolio>	Letting it leak is Industry Standard.
19:43:23	<tomsmeding>	hugo: I'm talking about 21:04 till 21:37 :p
19:43:49	<tomsmeding>	if it was still about Void then, my reading comprehension could use a touch-up
19:44:22	<dolio>	tomsmeding: 0 is a multiple. :þ
19:44:38	<monochrom>	Nah don't worry, we drifted. :)
19:44:39	<hugo>	I had completely missed that we talked about Void
19:44:58	<hugo>	monochrom: Is the Pike you mention this pike https://pike.lysator.liu.se/?
19:45:06	<monochrom>	Just be thankful no one dared to try fractal return values!
19:45:21	<hugo>	monochrom: Dear god
19:45:25	<tomsmeding>	hugo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Pike
19:45:28	<EvanR>	there's a rule that says if you allow 0, 1 or 2 returns you have to also allow infinite returns
19:45:33	<monochrom>	Go's Pike.
19:45:49	<hugo>	Thank God it's not "that" Pike
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All times are in UTC on 2023-09-19.