Logs on 2023-09-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:24:23 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> What does [fractal return value] even mean? |
| 03:28:17 | <int-e> | I imagine it was insipred by "multiple returns" and alluding to the idea that each of those multiple returns splits into even more return values as you zoom in. It's monochrom, you can't take half of the things he says seriously. |
| 03:29:00 | <int-e> | (The other half you should take seriously though :P) |
| 03:29:44 | <EvanR> | there's a fractal dimension of a subspace. Normally dimensions go like 0, 1, 2, etc but fractal dimension can be inbetweening |
| 03:36:21 | <int-e> | so the pi calculus is called that because its return values are pi-dimensional? |
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| 03:53:25 | <monochrom> | Oh, recall 1D, 2D, 3D (positive integers) but then fractals are said to have fractional dimensions. Now apply that to return values or even simply tuple lengths... |
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| 06:30:12 | <Inst> | anyone interested in something bizarre? |
| 06:30:23 | <Inst> | actually, maybe i'll work on it some more |
| 06:33:36 | <Inst> | well, hahaha |
| 06:33:42 | <Inst> | it's a weird bug with vector, need to figure out what's going on here |
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| 06:35:47 | <Inst> | unsafePerformIO is a hell of a drug! |
| 06:39:51 | <dminuoso> | And a great source of subtle bugs. |
| 06:40:01 | <Axman6> | Surely not |
| 06:40:18 | <Axman6> | I thought unsafePerformIO was perfectly safe |
| 06:40:37 | <dminuoso> | We should petition to rename unsafePerformIO to perfectlySafeUnsafePerformIO |
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| 06:40:59 | <Inst> | https://github.com/AndrasKovacs/flatparse/issues/48 |
| 06:41:05 | <Inst> | I'm not directly invoking unsafePerformIO |
| 06:41:11 | <Axman6> | sometimesThisWillDoWhatYouWantAndSafelyPerformIO |
| 06:41:57 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Im not quite sure what it is that you are complaing about there. |
| 06:42:18 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: uncursedUtterablePerformIO |
| 06:42:19 | <Inst> | the first and second invocations of h? |
| 06:42:23 | <Axman6> | that's a pretty poor bug report, it doesn't tell me what you expected to see, and what you saw |
| 06:43:36 | <dminuoso> | Axman6: with that name its properly constrasted against accursedUnutterablePerformIO |
| 06:43:43 | <dminuoso> | contrasted, even. |
| 06:43:48 | <Axman6> | good bug reports: background context and summary of the issue, what you tried, what you expected to see, what you actually saw, and optionally any further information that might be relevant |
| 06:44:03 | <Inst> | yeah, I should have embedded the typing |
| 06:44:13 | <Inst> | hmmm |
| 06:44:17 | <Inst> | is h pure? |
| 06:44:23 | <Axman6> | I can't really see any of those there |
| 06:44:45 | <Inst> | i used Data.ByteString.readFile on the cabal file of the project |
| 06:44:53 | <Inst> | used monadic bind to bind it to U |
| 06:44:56 | <Inst> | this should be strict, right? |
| 06:45:00 | <Axman6> | Don't tell us, update the bug |
| 06:45:49 | <dminuoso> | Without a reproducer, I will not bother looking at that report further. |
| 06:45:50 | <Axman6> | would also be good if you turned off -s to reduce noise |
| 06:49:38 | <dminuoso> | I dont even know why Im seeing output there |
| 06:49:43 | <dminuoso> | Where is your unsafePerformIO coming from |
| 06:49:47 | <dminuoso> | How is `u` defined |
| 06:50:07 | <dminuoso> | And what's that additional output coming from |
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| 06:52:29 | <dminuoso> | And how is `parse` defiend |
| 06:52:39 | <Axman6> | looks to me like h has a side effect when evaluated, which would only be executed the first time h is evaluated, in this case by trying to show h |
| 06:53:07 | <dminuoso> | Without knowing what `parse` is, its impossible to say. |
| 06:53:09 | <Inst> | h is impure by being derived from the output of Data.ByteString.readFile |
| 06:53:26 | <Inst> | parse is FlatParse.Basic.runParser (myparser) |
| 06:53:59 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Look, I dont want to have this discussion here. |
| 06:54:15 | <dminuoso> | Please make a reproducer.hs file that when runghc with, will reproduce your issue. |
| 06:54:19 | <dminuoso> | Then share that file in the ticket. |
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| 06:55:48 | <Inst> | My problem is that it's a data dependency on my lib, to get a perfect reproduction. |
| 06:56:02 | <dminuoso> | Then work on making a small reproducer. |
| 06:56:54 | <dminuoso> | The issue title mentions something about `unsafePerformIO`, yet nothing about it is mentioned in the ticket. You hide the entirety of your implementation, share some output that sometimes appears to print additional output for mysterious reasos. |
| 06:57:00 | <dminuoso> | All I can tell you is this: |
| 06:57:06 | <dminuoso> | runParser does not magically print something |
| 06:57:45 | <Inst> | runParser generates a value which is then shown, the value being a dependency on an impure action via Data.ByteString |
| 06:58:28 | <Inst> | since that's to do with ghci internals; i.e, it'll print the value of an input evaluated |
| 06:58:50 | <Inst> | via the print = putStrLn . show function |
| 07:00:26 | <Inst> | if you don't mind, can I put in cabal annotations and would runghc respect that, or would something to be reproduced via cabal run be better? |
| 07:06:26 | <dminuoso> | Would be fine with `cabal run` too. |
| 07:06:37 | <dminuoso> | Just make it as small as possible. |
| 07:06:46 | <dminuoso> | And include the necessary bits, like a cabal file |
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| 07:08:00 | <Inst> | why would I need a cabal file when I can use a cabal header isntead? |
| 07:08:14 | <dminuoso> | What is a cabal header? |
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| 07:09:46 | <Inst> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/stable/getting-started.html#run-a-single-file-haskell-script |
| 07:10:57 | <Inst> | forget it, I'm not going to bother with this, someone suggested to me pronto that there was a trace somewhere |
| 07:11:03 | <Inst> | turns out I had a traceshowid |
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| 07:20:50 | <Inst> | on plus side, it suggests that Debug.Trace could use improvements |
| 07:21:26 | <Inst> | i.e, make sure the print is colored by default, but really not within my capabilities and not my priority right now |
| 07:21:41 | <int-e> | lol |
| 07:21:47 | <int-e> | seriously, colors? |
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| 07:30:22 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> Can Haskell run an entire operating system? |
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| 07:32:16 | <dminuoso> | tewuzij: Yes. There were a few attempts at writing a kernel in Haskell. |
| 07:32:42 | <dminuoso> | House, Hos, Kinetic |
| 07:32:44 | <dminuoso> | They come to mind |
| 07:33:08 | <Inst> | int-e: On my end, my mistake was that this came about because I was trying to work with a moderate-sized dataset, i.e, parsing a cabal file that produced mangled crap |
| 07:33:19 | <dminuoso> | Or well, some of them are even bits of a userspace |
| 07:33:54 | <Inst> | Wasted about 25 minutes of your time over a stupid trace error, but the last time I was screwing around with ghci, it was a nullary typeclass issue on ghci that got patched |
| 07:34:52 | <sm> | Hledger.Utils.Debug does coloured debug tracing |
| 07:35:34 | <dminuoso> | I dont think lack of coloring is the real problem here. |
| 07:35:45 | <Inst> | the real problem is my lack of skill and experience :) |
| 07:35:56 | <dminuoso> | It was rather the presumption that whatever behavior you were seeing couldnt possibly come from your code. |
| 07:36:12 | <dminuoso> | Next time just make a reproducer. |
| 07:36:35 | <Inst> | well, thanks for that part of education |
| 07:36:36 | <dminuoso> | The cool trick about the reproducer is that in between the simplest `putStrLn "Hello World"` and your program the behavior you are seeing disappears. |
| 07:36:47 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: put "\x1B[1;31m" before the message and "\x1B[0m" after it, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#Colors |
| 07:36:54 | <dminuoso> | In making a reproducer you continouously remove things that are irrelevant to your issue at hand |
| 07:37:19 | <Inst> | iirc, the problem with tomsmeding's suggestion is that windows doesn't support it, but then again, i'm not on Windows anymore, but Arch |
| 07:37:25 | <dminuoso> | To the point where its somewhere a single identifier you remove or add. And then you would have found its traceShowId. |
| 07:37:42 | <dminuoso> | Beauty here is: If youc ant explain it, you've already done the the groundworks for filing a bug report. Or you found the issue |
| 07:37:43 | <dminuoso> | Either way. |
| 07:38:01 | <Inst> | by the way, did you know about cabal headers beforehand, dminuoso? |
| 07:38:14 | <tomsmeding> | they're called "cabal scripts" commonly, I believe |
| 07:38:21 | <dminuoso> | Inst: Indeed I did not. |
| 07:38:37 | <dminuoso> | Pretty neat, wish I had known about it before. |
| 07:38:47 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: I believe the "new" windows terminal thing does support it, but not 100% sure |
| 07:38:49 | <Inst> | i hope it's acceptable, I traded you a small QoL change for some fundamental software engineering knowledge |
| 07:39:08 | <Inst> | I think ANSI terminal had a Windows compat capability for this |
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| 07:39:38 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: traditional windows terminal had to be controlled with ioctl() like commands instead of just writing particular bytes, quite a different beast |
| 07:39:50 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: I hear they've become more useful very recently, by means of caching the executable instead of recompiling every time you want to run it |
| 07:40:18 | <Axman6> | tewuzij, dminuoso; also somewhat related. seL4 used Haskell as one of the intermediates from Isabell/HOL to assembly |
| 07:40:21 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Presumably the dist-newstyle equivalent is kept in the global cabal directory somewhere? |
| 07:40:25 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 07:40:33 | <dminuoso> | Thats pretty cool indede. |
| 07:40:51 | <dminuoso> | Now will HLS play nice with this, thats the question. |
| 07:41:04 | <dminuoso> | That is, can hie-bios work with cabal scripts? |
| 07:41:12 | <tomsmeding> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 07:41:39 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: according to the 'cabal run' documentation: "The executable is cached under the cabal directory, and can be pre-built with cabal build path/to/script and the cache can be removed with cabal clean path/to/script." |
| 07:41:44 | <Inst> | I'm sort of disappointed now this was a dumb mistake on my end |
| 07:42:10 | <Inst> | no opportunity to make a reproducer now |
| 07:42:15 | <Axman6> | that's why we make minimal reproducing examples before filing bugs |
| 07:42:19 | <dminuoso> | Oh I've had plenty of "this must be a kernel bug" moments before. But over the years it became less and less. |
| 07:42:41 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Inst, if you’re looking for tips: all trace users do this sooner or later, two fast ways to find it are (git diff; search the output for "trace" etc.) or(git stash; reload/rebuild, try to reproduce) |
| 07:43:11 | <dminuoso> | Inst: This act of "reducing the scope" is a good general debugging technique. |
| 07:43:19 | <dminuoso> | Limiting moving parts helps identify root causes. |
| 07:43:24 | <tomsmeding> | it can be time-consuming though |
| 07:43:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> it is THE debugging technique |
| 07:43:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Divide Et Impera! |
| 07:44:02 | <Axman6> | Nah you can always just use the Feynman technique to debug anything |
| 07:44:17 | <tomsmeding> | I've had times where I did the whole scope reduction thing only to find out that I was narrowing down on something irrelevant that made the bug manifest in way A, then I removed that, but the bug was still there, and I had to do scope-narrowing _two_ times more to actually find the root cause |
| 07:44:20 | <tomsmeding> | that took a while |
| 07:44:41 | <Inst> | that actually implies something interesting, i.e, a lot of people complain about Haskell having poor debugging capabilities, but it's interesting to see how Haskellers debug in a purely functional language since the debugging that's still available is fundamental, not bound to some script or tool for your language |
| 07:45:01 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> If EFI had been using Haskell, we could have more transparent operating systems now |
| 07:45:09 | <Axman6> | GHCi also has a debugger if you want to step through things |
| 07:45:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> for the record it is possible to get VS Code’s gui debugger to step through haskell code, but it’s flaky |
| 07:45:34 | <Axman6> | :o |
| 07:45:38 | <tomsmeding> | and I recently learned that this also exists, though I haven't tried it yet https://github.com/phoityne/haskell-debug-adapter |
| 07:45:40 | <dminuoso> | Or you use the Edward technique:. 1. Study category theory. 2. Add all the kmettiverse packages. 3. Express your problem as xenoidial right-leaning yonofunctor with distributive clown faces, and your problem disappears. |
| 07:45:41 | <tomsmeding> | ah, well that |
| 07:46:13 | <Axman6> | dminuoso: it's a flawless technique |
| 07:46:32 | <Inst> | Yi is dead, IIRC |
| 07:46:42 | <Inst> | but VSC is actually a vulnerability, no? |
| 07:46:54 | <Inst> | I mean, in the sense that VSC is built on electron, and in my experience is incredibly flakey |
| 07:47:19 | <Axman6> | I use VS Code daily and it's fantastic, despite being electron based |
| 07:47:25 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> same |
| 07:47:31 | <Inst> | probably config problem on my end, then |
| 07:47:37 | <Axman6> | being able to work on another machine over SSH with it is a lifesaver |
| 07:47:55 | <dminuoso> | Sounds like you want emacs. |
| 07:48:13 | <dminuoso> | tramp-mode is one of the reasons that made me switch from vim to emacs :) |
| 07:48:17 | <tomsmeding> | that feature almost got me interested in vscode, but I stayed with vim because I can just run vim _on_ the remote machine |
| 07:48:18 | <tomsmeding> | :) |
| 07:48:18 | <Axman6> | I do not want emacs |
| 07:48:31 | <Inst> | I mean that if the GUI situation in Haskell improves, could reboot Yi or something on a GUI basis, but then again, MS probably has invested a huge amount of labor and effort into making VSC good |
| 07:48:58 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> Wait, how does SS |
| 07:49:01 | <Inst> | *labor and talent |
| 07:49:07 | <Axman6> | the nice thing about using VS Code over ssh is that all your settings are from your local machine, so it's always _your_ editor. you don't get that with vim without having to set it up each time. |
| 07:49:25 | <dminuoso> | Im just saying that this is not VS Code specific. |
| 07:49:32 | <dminuoso> | Emacs has had this feature for literally decades. |
| 07:49:41 | <Axman6> | Sure |
| 07:50:16 | <Inst> | axman6: is there a better three-fingered salute than ctrl shift p? |
| 07:50:29 | <tomsmeding> | : |
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| 07:50:33 | sm | thinks VSC's remote and emacs tramp are not the same |
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| 07:51:05 | <Inst> | I'm just curious, on your end, you don't have to reboot HLS constantly? |
| 07:51:16 | <sm> | I do, multiple times per day |
| 07:51:37 | <sm> | not for lack of memory, just because it got confused. YMMV |
| 07:51:42 | <Axman6> | Most of my work these days is not haskell, but I haven't noticed I need to much on the haskell project I'm working on at the moment |
| 07:51:45 | <dminuoso> | sm: What things are you missing on either side? |
| 07:51:49 | <tomsmeding> | I have to almost every time I change the module list in the cabal file |
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| 07:52:00 | <tomsmeding> | but almost no other time |
| 07:52:02 | <Inst> | Yeah, I guess I'm confusing issues with HLS / extension for issues with VSC |
| 07:52:05 | <Axman6> | yeah it doesn't seemto cope with cabal changes that well IIRC |
| 07:52:24 | <tomsmeding> | so if you're doing haskell programming in a way that doesn't change the cabal file, you might not have any issues :p |
| 07:52:31 | <sm> | dminuoso I'm no expert on either, I just think VSC remote does a bit more than tramp |
| 07:53:17 | <sm> | multi-package projects tend to confuse it |
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| 07:53:28 | <tomsmeding> | oh right, that yes |
| 07:53:49 | <sm> | building your project your self while VSC is also building it can confuse it |
| 07:53:49 | <tomsmeding> | it started switching to dependencies successfully recently, but then it can't switch back up, it seems like |
| 07:54:04 | <sm> | the wind coming from the east can confuse it |
| 07:54:05 | <Axman6> | remote VS Code has the nice feature that plugins know when they need to be run from the machine where the code is, and makes it easy to install the ones you need there, while the ones that only run in the UI stay in your local machine |
| 07:54:08 | <sm> | j/k |
| 07:54:51 | tomsmeding | lucky to live in a country where the prevailing wind is south-west |
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| 07:57:19 | <sm> | oh yes, upgrading your ghc or other haskell tools will confuse it |
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| 10:15:51 | <Inst> | so sad :( |
| 10:15:53 | <Inst> | https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch8.html#:~:text=8.4 |
| 10:16:05 | <Inst> | and yeah, I know, ccall is superseded by capi |
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| 11:00:04 | <danse-nr3_> | i do not get it, what is sad there Inst? |
| 11:01:15 | <Inst> | apparently dotnot, jvm, win32, and cplusplus were also intended to be supported on the compiler level |
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| 11:02:59 | <danse-nr3_> | i see, ambitious |
| 11:03:25 | <Inst> | https://github.com/tweag/inline-java#readme not sure if anyone uses that |
| 11:04:55 | <danse-nr3_> | i hope that at haskell.org is not the most up-to-date page about that interface, that would be more sad |
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| 11:06:35 | <Inst> | the link is from the 2010 Haskell report |
| 11:06:52 | <Inst> | just found this, but... |
| 11:06:53 | <Inst> | https://github.com/nh2/call-haskell-from-anything |
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| 11:17:54 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> Java Virtual Machine? |
| 11:19:25 | <Inst> | I'm not sure if there's any users of inline-java, but it'd be interesting to see whether the library is still usable |
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| 11:34:01 | <exarkun> | I wanted to use inline-java but I wrote JNI by hand instead. |
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| 11:46:45 | <dminuoso> | Haskell on GraalVM would be a cool project. |
| 11:46:51 | <dminuoso> | TruffleHaskell. :) |
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| 12:38:51 | <Inst> | cool, finally have haskell tools working on nvim |
| 12:38:53 | Inst | cheers |
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| 12:59:28 | <ph88> | does anyone know what happened with the foundation prelude? https://github.com/haskell-foundation/foundation |
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| 13:41:18 | <EvanR> | ph88, it seems to still exist. Maybe it's just done? |
| 13:42:13 | <ph88> | what do you mean done ? |
| 13:42:15 | <EvanR> | latest upload to hackage june 2023 |
| 13:42:17 | <dminuoso> | I dislike that github archival does not have a mandatorya message that explains *why* its archived. |
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| 13:49:17 | <erisco> | Ah yes, mandatory programmer comments, the font of knowledge! Archived August 3rd, 2023: "dont need" |
| 13:50:54 | <dminuoso> | heh |
| 13:52:19 | <danse-nr3__> | mandatory is out of fashion, just change to an user experience such that people feel compelled to do it as expected |
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| 13:53:19 | <yin> | mandatory is out of fashion |
| 13:53:23 | <yin> | <3 |
| 13:53:36 | <dminuoso> | I see. Archival creates an "Send the maintainer a message" button. |
| 13:53:43 | <dminuoso> | How's that, danse-nr3__. |
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| 13:54:11 | <danse-nr3__> | sorry you mean? |
| 13:54:38 | <danse-nr3__> | how do i find the user experience for the Send button, or what? |
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| 13:55:22 | <dminuoso> | Oh Im thinking that if you provide users with a way to annoy maintaners, they might voluntarily provide enough information so people wont annoy them about why a repository was archived. |
| 13:55:51 | <dminuoso> | Probably should talk to Windows UX designers to figure out the right dark patterns. |
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| 13:57:31 | <danse-nr3__> | haha. Companies have many more subtle ways to compel. Add a badge or points for good practices, write a blog post from an influencer saying you are a bad person if you just archive without messages, or anything that fits in the star system github now became |
| 13:58:46 | <dminuoso> | Oh I see. So we just need a Karma system. |
| 13:59:05 | <dminuoso> | We could tweak it, so you can only create repositories if you have accrued enough karma. |
| 13:59:17 | <dminuoso> | Github reddit style. |
| 14:00:11 | <dminuoso> | After a few years, just monetarize the git interface, and if maintainers complain, just relinquish them of their maintainer powers, and randomly distribute repositories around. |
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| 14:00:47 | <danse-nr3__> | "we"? Github. They already have their reward system, and i bet they can use it perfectly when interested |
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| 14:02:07 | <ddellacosta> | dminuoso: oh man let's talk about the ancient past, when sourceforge was where it was at |
| 14:02:31 | <erisco> | sf always fetch sketch to me |
| 14:02:37 | <erisco> | felt sketch |
| 14:02:55 | <dminuoso> | sourceforge is one of the most dubious places on the internet these days. |
| 14:03:03 | <ddellacosta> | I mean, it used to be less sketch, although still a mess, years and years ago |
| 14:03:25 | <dminuoso> | Havent they done evil things like modify repositories to include advertisement for themselves, buried in your code? |
| 14:03:31 | <ddellacosta> | lol I wouldn't be surprised |
| 14:03:33 | <dminuoso> | Recall reading about it on /. when that was a thing. |
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| 14:03:55 | ddellacosta | is experiencing intense flashbacks of troll posts on slashdot suddenly |
| 14:04:00 | <danse-nr3__> | github was a bliss and a liberation from sourceforge at the beginning. There just was nothing after the beginning, just a social network business model and a lucrative exit |
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| 14:04:39 | <dminuoso> | Let's see what the future offers. |
| 14:04:45 | <danse-nr3__> | i am glad to them from what they did to open code, not expecting anything good after the sell |
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| 14:09:40 | <juri_> | gitorious was nice, until it's collapse. |
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| 14:11:20 | <danse-nr3__> | even reddit seems to have worsened over time, the silicon valley model seems to state you need to be original just at the beginning |
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| 14:12:49 | <erisco> | they call it "enshittification" |
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| 14:13:59 | <exarkun> | rhymes with "capitalism" |
| 14:14:47 | <danse-nr3__> | may be related to you image in silicon valley not mattering that much anymore because you are "global" now, which means i have been unfair with the valley |
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| 14:44:54 | <Inst> | is there a way to execute something of type Q [Dec] in ghci? |
| 14:45:09 | <Inst> | can't figure out how to use C.Include to get stdio.h in |
| 14:46:58 | <geekosaur> | shouldn't splicing it work? $(whatever) |
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| 14:48:38 | <Inst> | can't match type [Dec] with Exp |
| 14:48:56 | <geekosaur> | oy |
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| 15:00:07 | <geekosaur> | doesn't look like they considered that use case; ghci is betraying that it was originally just an expression evaluator here |
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| 15:15:17 | <c_wraith> | ghci has become harder and harder to predict as people make it "friendlier" |
| 15:15:39 | <c_wraith> | it used to be amazingly easy |
| 15:15:54 | <c_wraith> | now it's drowning in special cases |
| 15:17:09 | <EvanR> | split it into two programs, one does something specific and does it well, like expression evaluation |
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| 15:17:41 | <EvanR> | the other is the high powered debugger with trapdoors and convenience stuff |
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| 15:18:22 | <c_wraith> | you could always use it for the other use cases, though. you just need to put some code in files and use :r liberally |
| 15:20:06 | <c_wraith> | if you wanted to create a UI around the idea of having declarations and an interactive evaluator, that would be cool |
| 15:21:14 | <c_wraith> | heck, that was a core element of Microsoft's quickbasic stuff in the 90s |
| 15:21:40 | <c_wraith> | (and probably late 80s) |
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| 15:32:17 | <Inst> | interestingly, i just realized we missed an opportunity, but Avoid $ Success At All Costs / Avoid Success $ At All Costs |
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| 15:35:31 | <geekosaur> | that's a ongoing joke actually |
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| 15:36:54 | <Inst> | no, I mean, I know, I've been around the community long enough |
| 15:37:02 | <Inst> | it turns out that GHCI was a thing back in 2003 |
| 15:37:56 | <Inst> | I'm trying to figure out when Haskell switched off its C backend |
| 15:38:04 | <Inst> | or rather, I think Haskell was compiled via gcc back in the day? |
| 15:39:00 | <[exa]> | Inst: afaik some compilers worked like that, there are papers on uhc and hugs that cover much of the historyu |
| 15:39:09 | <EvanR> | and gcc was compiled used lazy ML compiler |
| 15:39:13 | <geekosaur> | ghc7 iirc |
| 15:39:13 | <EvanR> | er ghc |
| 15:39:14 | <Inst> | no no no, C compiler space is dead |
| 15:39:22 | <Inst> | erm, C interpreter space is dead |
| 15:39:39 | <Inst> | since Haskell used to have a C backend |
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| 15:39:48 | <geekosaur> | although the unregisterised backend still exists (generates ANSI C) |
| 15:39:50 | <Inst> | I'm trying to figure out if ghci only became a thing after the C backend got abandoned |
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| 15:40:00 | <geekosaur> | no, it goes back much farther |
| 15:40:19 | <geekosaur> | native compilation used gcc, bytecode backend is fairly old |
| 15:40:22 | <Inst> | so, in theory, once upon a time, we had 75% of a dual-mode interpreter? |
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| 15:40:37 | <Inst> | welp, sounds like 50-60% :( |
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| 15:42:30 | <Inst> | but it's sort of like how Emacs Lisp is likely to live a looong time |
| 15:43:01 | <Inst> | if GHCI could have supported C interpretation back in the day, it could easily have become the premier C interpreter |
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| 15:43:59 | <Inst> | but afaik inline-c tosses errors out if you try to compile C code with it |
| 15:44:10 | <Inst> | *interpret |
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| 15:44:13 | <Inst> | in the context of ghci |
| 15:44:20 | <ski> | no, HBC used Lazy ML, not GHC |
| 15:44:54 | <EvanR> | I thought the very early days of GHC was in lazy ML |
| 15:45:03 | <EvanR> | before it could compile itself |
| 15:45:18 | <ski> | hm .. i don't recall hearing that before, but i guess it could have been the case, too |
| 15:45:36 | <ski> | @quote evil.mangler |
| 15:45:36 | <lambdabot> | Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler! |
| 15:45:49 | <EvanR> | otherwise how did it ever work |
| 15:46:05 | <EvanR> | can't compile a haskell compiler written in haskell without itself |
| 15:46:12 | <ski> | (that was a Perl script which mangled the assembler output from GCC, innvoked by GHC) |
| 15:46:43 | <ski> | the first Mercury implementation was written in Mercury |
| 15:47:06 | <ski> | (specifically, in the intersection of Mercury, NU Prolog, and some other Prolog) |
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| 15:51:25 | <ski> | .. anyway, GHC could have been bootstrapped using HBC ? or Hugs, maybe ? |
| 15:52:03 | <ski> | (augustss would've be able to elucidate ..) |
| 15:53:09 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 15:53:53 | <dolio> | Wikipedia says it was completely rewritten in Haskell before its first beta release. |
| 15:54:17 | <dolio> | Only a prototype was written in lazy ml. |
| 15:55:01 | <ski> | interesting |
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| 16:59:59 | <Ankhers> | If I am just getting back into Haskell, should I be using cabal or stack? |
| 17:01:45 | <geekosaur> | these days cabal is preferred; its old problems are long gone and it's more flexible. that said the community is roughly 50-50 on it |
| 17:01:50 | <yushyin> | depends on who answers |
| 17:01:55 | <yushyin> | (ghcup + cabal) |
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| 17:02:58 | <Ankhers> | Thank you both for the input. I think I will just stick with cabal for now unless I have reason not to. |
| 17:04:34 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if you are having trouble with cabal, try stack |
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| 17:06:18 | ski | . o O ( "The Cabal/Stack Disambiguation Guide" <https://gist.github.com/merijn/8152d561fb8b011f9313c48d876ceb07> ) |
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| 17:09:16 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> s/cabal is preferred/cabal is preferred by the cabal users/ :) |
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| 17:10:19 | <geekosaur> | this channel in particular seems to lean cabal-ward. compilations of preferences that consider other sources (commercial users, reddit, etc.) are more even |
| 17:13:03 | <c_wraith> | honestly, I can't figure out what stack is for. it's caused me more issues than cabal has. |
| 17:14:17 | <yushyin> | easy access to snapshots, i guess |
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| 17:14:45 | <danse-nr3__> | and sandboxed installs |
| 17:14:46 | <danse-nr3__> | had not realised that this channel does not consider commercial users. What does that mean, precisely? |
| 17:14:58 | <sclv> | this channel does consider commercial users |
| 17:15:26 | <sclv> | the post just meant that when you survey _all_ commercial users you see more even representation of stack, but amongst only those on this channel you see less |
| 17:15:47 | <danse-nr3__> | makes sense |
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| 17:20:15 | <geekosaur> | commercial users generally don't hang out here |
| 17:20:27 | <geekosaur> | at least, not the ones who make the decisions |
| 17:20:59 | <geekosaur> | I suspect the main draw of stack there is that it's a lot easier to set up a private stackage than a private hackage |
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| 17:22:03 | <davean> | geekosaur: Yah, hackage is hard to clone, which is why to do it I just wrote a hackage replacement and stood that up internally. |
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| 17:22:22 | <davean> | It took me a night when I first did it. |
| 17:22:25 | <geekosaur> | especially since what they usually want is not to host their own hackage, but a locally blessed set of packages, which is a better fit for a resolver than for a hackage repo |
| 17:29:30 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> do we need a how to do everything with cabal and stack, side by side guide ? |
| 17:30:04 | <monochrom> | Do we have anyone who wants to write it? |
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| 17:32:12 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> feels like we've needed it from the beginning .. I'm motivated enough to brainstorm an effective crowd production process... |
| 17:33:25 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> a markdown table in a github readme is the easiest.. but not great for long commands or multiline procedures |
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| 17:34:34 | <monochrom> | I just speak for myself, but I would not need it. |
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| 17:35:41 | <juri_> | i might need it. i'm pretty dumb some times. |
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| 17:35:51 | <monochrom> | What I would need: Step 1: Something that tells me what each is good at, just so I can choose which one fits my context better. Step 2: After I have chosen, I just need its own guide, not a side-by-side guide that spends half of its time talking about the other one I have not chosen. |
| 17:36:22 | <monochrom> | But I reckon that the majority doesn't work that way. |
| 17:36:49 | <davean> | Thats certainly how I work |
| 17:37:24 | <monochrom> | If there is homework that says "write quicksort in javascript", I would learn javascript on its own, and learn quicksort on its own, and I can do the combination. |
| 17:38:02 | <monochrom> | But I reckon that most other student go straight for googling "quicksort in javascript I accept no substitute". |
| 17:38:41 | <monochrom> | I learn individual topics and then I do my own synthesis. Most other people just want the whole thing served on a silver platter. |
| 17:39:48 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> a side by side how to could be both useful and a gentle objective way to highlight strengths and weaknesses in each |
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| 17:40:40 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> and is relatively low effort. But, just thinking aloud |
| 17:44:43 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> if y'all want to send me 3+ commands/procedures using either or both tools, I will collate them and see how it turns out |
| 17:45:29 | <davean> | sm: I don't think it highlights anything because its contrieved and doesn't take into account that you wouldn't be doing that thing in one, etc. |
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| 17:51:25 | <geekosaur> | I think the most basic stuff is pretty much the same anyway (init, build, install…) |
| 17:51:54 | <geekosaur> | the differences come in with the difference between resolvers and cabal dependency ranges, freeze files, etc. |
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| 17:52:58 | <geekosaur> | and there it's not just equivalencies because the models and corresponding thought processes and planning are quite different |
| 17:53:17 | shapr | hops quietly |
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| 17:58:07 | <davean> | geekosaur: I mean yes, but that makes build deeply different for me |
| 17:58:15 | <davean> | well init too I guess. |
| 17:58:29 | <davean> | build though is entirely different. |
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| 18:04:55 | <johnw> | davean: hello! :) |
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| 20:27:25 | <mauke> | <dminuoso> sourceforge is one of the most dubious places on the internet these days. Havent they done evil things like modify repositories to include advertisement for themselves, buried in your code? <- that was 10 years ago |
| 20:27:58 | <mauke> | they stopped it entirely in 2016, when sourceforge was sold to a new owner |
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| 20:50:16 | <exarkun> | Quite an exciting place in 1999 though |
| 20:50:31 | <exarkun> | Also freshmeat! |
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| 20:52:13 | <[exa]> | how did freshmeat actually cease to exist? |
| 20:52:26 | <ddellacosta> | I forgot about freshmeat. What would be the equivalent of that these days, wasn't it as much a blog as a software profile database kinda thing? My memory is really fuzzy |
| 20:52:59 | <ddellacosta> | oh, well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freecode |
| 20:53:15 | <ddellacosta> | answers for both of us |
| 20:54:49 | <[exa]> | like, before the searchable software repositories took over, freshmeat was really helpful |
| 20:54:56 | <[exa]> | ah yes freecode. :D |
| 21:01:07 | <meejah> | there's so much FOSS now, many of the reasons for Freshmeat existing are gone -- now what one needs is kind of the opposite: a filter to say which things are good, or "notable" releases etc |
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| 22:30:45 | <ph88> | how can i write in cabal that i want to include a package when the base version is less than a certain version ? |
| 22:30:58 | <mauke> | something with flags, probably |
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| 22:38:01 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/tTlisw0p |
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| 22:41:59 | <dmj`> | is there a standalone SQL query DSL package (not tied to any specific db) |
| 22:43:21 | <mauke> | I don't know if selda counts |
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| 22:52:21 | <dmj`> | mauke: yea that might be the best bet |
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| 23:26:37 | <dsal> | I've got some code using impredicative types where I end up with a list of [(a, b)] where `b` has a `forall` and `a` is boring. If I try to extract a list of `a`, I get "Cannot instantiate unification variable." Is there a straightforward way to accomplish this? |
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| 23:36:23 | <ph88> | geekosaur, can it determine automatically whether old-base needs to be set ? |
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| 23:37:50 | <geekosaur[c]> | Yes if the solver can't produce a plan in One direction it will flip the flag and try again |
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| 23:39:25 | <geekosaur> | (that's what `manual: False` is for) |
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| 23:57:53 | <ph88> | interesting approach |
| 23:58:06 | <Square> | I'm a bit surprised Haskell doesn't have a bigger market shares. Such a delight to use. |
| 23:58:20 | <ph88> | Square, we just got you on board so it worked ;) |
| 23:59:01 | <Square> | I've been around for years actually. But yeah, lured me in. |
All times are in UTC on 2023-09-20.