Logs on 2023-09-22 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:18:54 | <albet70> | what's the difference between State and ST? |
| 01:19:58 | <geekosaur> | uh? they're very different |
| 01:20:41 | <geekosaur> | ST has a "state" but it's phantom, and that's the point: it's untouchable, so you can hide impure data by associating it with the untouchable state so it can never escape ST |
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| 01:21:40 | <geekosaur> | so now you can have mutable variables (STRef) and mutable arrays (STArray/STUArray), and can write mutating code as long as what you finally return is pure |
| 01:22:26 | <c_wraith> | State is a convenience wrapper for a pattern you can write by hand. |
| 01:22:45 | <c_wraith> | ST provides a unique interface that allows you to use true mutability in an externally-pure interface |
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| 01:30:53 | <dmj`> | is valderman around ? |
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| 02:07:55 | <albet70> | what's the relationship of STRef and ST? |
| 02:09:23 | <glguy> | STRef : ST :: IORef : IO |
| 02:09:36 | <glguy> | do you know the relationship between IORef and IO? |
| 02:09:43 | <albet70> | no |
| 02:10:25 | <glguy> | OK, then don't worry about ST and STRef yet. Are you familiar with the IO type yet? |
| 02:10:34 | <albet70> | yes |
| 02:11:07 | <glguy> | IORefs are mutable references. You can make a new one: newIORef :: a -> IO a |
| 02:11:17 | <glguy> | You can read what's stored in one: readIORef :: IORef a -> IO a |
| 02:11:40 | <glguy> | and you can store something in one: writeIORef :: IORef a -> a -> IO () |
| 02:11:52 | <glguy> | What you get back when you read from one is the last thing you wrote to it |
| 02:12:00 | <glguy> | (or the initial value you provided with newIORef |
| 02:12:24 | <albet70> | IORef can construct an IO a? |
| 02:12:45 | <glguy> | err |
| 02:12:46 | <albet70> | but 2 :: IO Int is ok? |
| 02:12:51 | <glguy> | newIORef :: a -> IO (IORef a) |
| 02:13:59 | <monochrom> | I don't know what "IORef can construct an IO a?" means. But you can use IORef in IO. (And STRef in ST.) |
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| 02:26:40 | <dmj`> | albet70: if you're trying to implement mutable algorithms in ST, use an Int accumulator before an STRef Int, faster |
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| 03:20:47 | <Inst> | danse-nr3: remember ICQ? |
| 03:25:19 | <monochrom> | I remember that. |
| 03:27:37 | <int-e> | . o O ( bad AIM ) |
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| 03:32:26 | <EvanR> | you were only cool if you were on Jabber |
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| 03:53:02 | <jackdk> | I remember writing and IRC<->jabber bot to ping my friends when someone wanted to challenge us to games |
| 03:53:37 | <jackdk> | the jabber side of the bot had my friends' MSN etc contacts imported via bridge. Amazing that we'd basically solved instant messaging in the 2000s and then decided to break it all again. |
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| 05:10:56 | <Inst> | jackdk: monetization |
| 05:11:27 | <Inst> | end of the day, labor -> trading off a bit of your life for value, opportunity costs -> what else you could be doing with your time |
| 05:11:42 | <Inst> | I wish, say, EU, US, Chinese, any one of the three, were subsidizing FOSS development |
| 05:12:51 | <Inst> | would tremendously increase efficiency and productivity in the field, because end of the day, FOSS is a public good, and governments should be taking care of public goods |
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| 05:37:40 | <phma> | I'm writing the same program in both Rust and Haskell and timing how long it takes to run. |
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| 05:39:04 | <phma> | Compiled with -O2 -fllvm, the Haskell program takes 12.3 s real, 18.1 s user (it's multithreaded), to hash a megabyte. |
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| 05:40:02 | <phma> | The Rust program, which is not multithreaded, takes 8.8 s to do the same thing. That's compiled in debug mode. |
| 05:41:11 | <phma> | So far, Haskell taking half again as long as Rust isn't bad. But then I compiled the Rust program in release mode |
| 05:41:25 | <phma> | and it took only half a second to hash a megabyte. |
| 05:42:13 | <phma> | That means it's spending over eight seconds checking bounds and such. |
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| 05:43:19 | <phma> | The Haskell program spends most of its time manipulating unboxed arrays. Is it possible to disable bounds checking and such, |
| 05:43:22 | <int-e> | Hmmmm was that https://github.com/phma/wring-twistree/ ? |
| 05:43:35 | <phma> | int-e: yes |
| 05:43:58 | <phma> | without using unsafe functions? |
| 05:47:30 | <int-e> | no, the bounds checks are just plain Haskell code, not guarded by any compiler flag |
| 05:48:12 | <phma> | How much speedup would I get by switching to unboxed vectors? |
| 05:49:09 | <int-e> | only one way to find out |
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| 06:40:50 | <phma> | Does profiling with -hc, -hy, or the like work properly on multithreaded programs? |
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| 06:50:34 | <Inst> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/8.8.1-alpha1/docs/html/libraries/Cabal-2.5.0.0/Distribution-Simple-Flag.html |
| 06:50:36 | <Inst> | what's going on here? |
| 06:50:55 | <Inst> | AFAIK, it's a custom Maybe type with Just being on the 0 index, and different monoid / semigroup instances |
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| 07:24:21 | <jackdk> | The link at the top of the haddocks is still live: https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/cabal-devel/2007-December/001509.html |
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| 07:46:01 | <Inst> | just a question, what is the value of foldr? |
| 07:46:13 | <Inst> | I mean, I know how foldr is implemented for lists, I can probably grok how it's implemented via foldable |
| 07:46:27 | <Inst> | but it's what I'd consider way too powerful |
| 07:47:05 | <Inst> | is it wrong to consider it equivalent to for, or even while? |
| 07:47:28 | <Inst> | (then again, all recursion can be expressed as while + some complexities) |
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| 07:54:50 | <lortabac> | Inst: foldr gives you an easy way to iterate on a structure and accumulate a result in a right-associative way |
| 07:55:43 | <Inst> | on lists, at least, foldr's inefficient and for most uses foldl' is better |
| 07:55:57 | <Inst> | i'm aware that foldr has an advantage insofar as it's usefully lazy on lists |
| 07:56:01 | <lortabac> | it's true that with 'foldr' you can theoretically do much more, but in practice it's too complex to be done for real |
| 07:56:19 | <lortabac> | Inst: there is no better and worse, foldl and foldr do different things |
| 07:58:39 | <Inst> | i think there's an implementation of foldl' in prelude using foldr as a continuation builder |
| 07:59:05 | <jackdk> | foldr performs constructor replacement. http://web.archive.org/web/20230103210800/data.tmorris.net/talks/list-folds/b30aa0fdff296c731bc5b1c824adf1d02b3b69d9/list-folds.pdf |
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| 08:00:28 | <Inst> | yeah, in that case foldr is better, since it can exploit laziness |
| 08:00:37 | <Inst> | foldl' i tend to default toward for performance reasons |
| 08:00:56 | <Inst> | i'd guessing with Hughes Lists / Diff Lists foldl' is likely to be more inefficient, though |
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| 08:01:45 | <lortabac> | imagine you are implementing a compiler, and you need to convert all multi-argument lambdas in curried one-argument ones |
| 08:02:12 | <lortabac> | you would use foldr since Lam is right-associative |
| 08:02:31 | <lortabac> | now if you want to do the same thing for function application |
| 08:02:39 | <lortabac> | you would use foldl since it's left-associative |
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| 08:04:38 | <Inst> | yeah and I'd assume I'd have Foldable instances for Lam for this purpose, no? |
| 08:04:46 | <lortabac> | no |
| 08:04:59 | <lortabac> | you fold over the arguments of the lambda |
| 08:05:10 | <Inst> | I guess I'm just thinking operationally |
| 08:05:11 | <lortabac> | foldr Lam arguments body |
| 08:05:39 | <lortabac> | foldl App arguments function |
| 08:06:13 | <lortabac> | sorry I inverted the last two arguments |
| 08:06:21 | <lortabac> | but I hope you get the idea |
| 08:06:28 | <Inst> | and, I'm guessing, on Vector, at least, foldr' and foldl' are essentially identical when it comes to performance characteristics, except that foldl' would have to get the vector length first? |
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| 08:20:46 | <mfg> | Hi, i'm using bench (a wrapper around criterion) to benchmark some command line applications and was wondering what is the minimum amount of actual program runs this performs, if this is configurable and how exactly is determined how many runs are actually done. |
| 08:24:15 | <Inst> | tbh do I have the wrong concept of foldr / foldl @lortabac? |
| 08:24:44 | <Inst> | i.e, I'm thinking of them specifically in the sense of how they interact with a value of type [a], not in the core semantics (right to left fold, left to right fold) |
| 08:25:45 | <lortabac> | Inst: the difference is not in how they interact with the list, it's in how they accumulate the value |
| 08:26:09 | <Inst> | i mean i know the definition, foldr with lists replaces the cons data constructor with the function |
| 08:26:24 | <Inst> | the accumulation, unless you're doing an outside accumulation via continuation building |
| 08:27:26 | <Inst> | but i get the feeling i'd be better off reading jack dk (avoid highlighting)'s link for more information on that |
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| 08:29:22 | <lortabac> | > foldl (+) 0 [x, y, z] |
| 08:29:24 | <lambdabot> | 0 + x + y + z |
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| 08:29:40 | <lortabac> | (+) is left-associative so the parentheses are omitted |
| 08:30:00 | <lortabac> | but this would be ((0 + x) + y) + z |
| 08:30:11 | <lortabac> | > foldr (+) 0 [x, y, z] |
| 08:30:13 | <lambdabot> | x + (y + (z + 0)) |
| 08:30:21 | <lortabac> | Inst: ↑ |
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| 08:31:37 | <probie> | > foldr (\n k acc -> k (acc + n)) id [x, y, z] 0 |
| 08:31:39 | <lambdabot> | 0 + x + y + z |
| 08:32:24 | <Inst> | yeah, i think we have like a miscommunication, I'm familiar with the semantics of foldr and foldl, my issue is more that I've asserted that foldr is equivalent to for or while in the past, i.e, foldr with its short-circuiting capability being able to implement any algorithm, is a bit smelly |
| 08:32:34 | <Inst> | whereas foldl' is, at least on lists, more constrained and more performant |
| 08:33:05 | <lortabac> | (+) is confusing because you can fold it both ways and the result won't change |
| 08:33:07 | <Inst> | i'm assuming that if i assert that any foldl can be implemented as a foldr |
| 08:33:18 | <Inst> | someone will bring up a counterexample |
| 08:33:29 | <lortabac> | but in other cases you can't really choose, one of the two is correct and the other is wrong |
| 08:33:31 | <Inst> | but of course, foldr implemented as foldl isn't possible for infinite lists, as a minimum counterexample |
| 08:33:46 | <Inst> | let f = flip g |
| 08:34:59 | <Inst> | and i suppose for a left associative data structure, foldl takes the properties of foldr for that data structure |
| 08:35:01 | <lortabac> | flip is not enough |
| 08:35:45 | <lortabac> | you can try, flip doesn't transform foldl into foldr (nor viceversa) |
| 08:36:05 | <lortabac> | the transformation is more complex, but I think you already know |
| 08:36:29 | <probie> | Inst: No, _every_ foldl (over lists) can be implemented as a foldr |
| 08:37:24 | <Inst> | yeah, but i was saying, if the data structure is different the same property may not hold |
| 08:38:05 | <Inst> | and actually, i'm wrong, : is right associative |
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| 11:05:25 | <danse-nr3__> | hi all, how is life going in haskell land? |
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| 11:10:53 | <arahael> | danse-nr3__: Is it really a life without a grip on the Real World? |
| 11:12:06 | <danse-nr3__> | to the contrary, it has a nicely abstracted grip on it |
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| 11:15:42 | <arahael> | I dunno, when I go on a date, I prefer dinner to be a real thing. ;) |
| 11:16:57 | <danse-nr3__> | yeah but what can i say, our "civilized" world prompts us to use fork and spoon |
| 11:17:22 | <arahael> | Damned civilisation! |
| 11:17:27 | <danse-nr3__> | true that |
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| 13:02:23 | <danse-nr3_> | i have been told by a colleague that haskell's typeclasses are meant to be used as an abstraction only when the instances are expected to satisfy some laws. |
| 13:02:26 | <danse-nr3_> | Had never read about this in learning material, so although several classes follow this pattern, i was wondering whether that is a recognized good practice |
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| 13:03:09 | <dminuoso> | Some say yes, plenty of libraries say no. |
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| 13:03:16 | <dminuoso> | It's the wild west. |
| 13:03:46 | <dminuoso> | The one thing I never hear about, is *why* typeclasses should be lawful. |
| 13:04:07 | <dminuoso> | It feels like some religious belief. |
| 13:07:21 | <exarkun> | There's two pieces right? "There are laws that apply to the class" and "an instance follows the laws ('is lawful')" |
| 13:08:08 | <exarkun> | You can't have an unlawful Data.Default because there are no laws to break. But you can have an unlawful Functor because there are Functor laws. |
| 13:08:28 | <exarkun> | It seems like there's pretty clear reasons to have lawful instances if there are laws at all |
| 13:08:50 | <dminuoso> | exarkun: They are referring to a belief, that typeclasses are a smell if they dont have mathematical laws attached to them. |
| 13:08:53 | <danse-nr3_> | i was referring to defining a class without laws associated to it |
| 13:09:10 | <lortabac> | for me the idea is 1) predictability 2) ability to write code that is generic over all instances of the class |
| 13:09:11 | <exarkun> | dminuoso: Sure, just making sure |
| 13:09:38 | <lortabac> | laws are a good way to achieve those goals, but not the only one |
| 13:10:40 | <dminuoso> | I guess if you document expected semantics (in the sense of interfaces/protocols), that would be fine too. |
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| 13:12:29 | <[exa]> | danse-nr3_: extra laws can create extra assumptions that you can use in the program. For many people the assumption about the typeclass methods having types checked is sufficient. Do they count as laws? |
| 13:13:16 | <exarkun> | I have the impression that "laws" are usually exactly the things that the language cannot check. |
| 13:13:17 | <danse-nr3_> | no, i think they do not count. I agree laws are great, but i thought classes were useful independently |
| 13:13:41 | <[exa]> | danse-nr3_: ofc they are, you can't do sensible overloading without them :] |
| 13:14:01 | <danse-nr3_> | that is what i thought, but apparently there is no agreement about this |
| 13:14:20 | <[exa]> | anyway the definition of "laws" as "theorems that are hard to prove automatically by the type/other system" is pretty much OK for me |
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| 13:15:06 | <exarkun> | danse-nr3_: There is certainly agreement! One group of people agree that you should have laws, another group of people agree that you don't need to ;) |
| 13:15:18 | <danse-nr3_> | ^.^; |
| 13:15:40 | <[exa]> | notably one of the groups doesn't know how undecidable is checking even of the very simple laws |
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| 13:16:28 | <danse-nr3_> | provability is not a concern here. I would love to add laws to all my classes, just i find that classes are useful for many cases where i cannot think of any law (yet?) |
| 13:16:31 | <haskellbridge> | <mauke> Does Bounded have laws? |
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| 13:17:40 | <exarkun> | does a class have laws if they aren't written in its haddocks? |
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| 13:17:55 | <[exa]> | traditional laws™ |
| 13:18:16 | <[exa]> | "sure this * is commutative" |
| 13:21:01 | <danse-nr3_> | Bounded and Enum are an interesting case. There are laws for when _both_ classes go together. I guess that if one had to wait for laws before creating them, the classes had never existed and therefore not even the overlap laws |
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| 13:24:25 | <tomsmeding> | what are the laws for Hashable? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hashable-1.4.3.0/docs/Data-Hashable.html#t:Hashable |
| 13:24:32 | <tomsmeding> | there are expected semantics |
| 13:24:56 | <tomsmeding> | but there are basically no straight laws that can be expected to always hold |
| 13:25:02 | <tomsmeding> | yet it is clearly a well-defined and useful class |
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| 13:26:30 | <tomsmeding> | type classes are a method of abstraction, and their point is that functions can use certain functionality without caring precisely which implementation they're using. For that to work, there has to be some kind of abstract functionality that the type class provides |
| 13:27:12 | <tomsmeding> | and sometimes there are also algebraic laws that hold, which enable further reasoning about the type class methods, but those need not be there for the type class to be useful for their intended purpose: abstraction |
| 13:27:41 | <danse-nr3_> | i guess me and you are in one of the two agreement groups |
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| 13:28:15 | <tomsmeding> | sometimes people write type classes with almost no abstraction, just to be able to use the same function name in multiple fairly unrelated contexts (really ad hoc overloading). This is also possible with type classes, but not really a nice use of them |
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| 13:29:03 | <tomsmeding> | danse-nr3_: I guess it depends on whether you would count the expected semantics of e.g. Hashable as a "law" |
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| 13:30:58 | <tomsmeding> | but this "not nice" use of type classes would correspond, in an OOP language, with a function with a bunch of overloads that have little to do with each other. OOP people would call that "not nice" too |
| 13:31:04 | <tomsmeding> | this is not specific to type classes or FP |
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| 13:31:22 | <danse-nr3_> | i meant that we are on the same group, considering classes just as an abstraction mean. And to be honest i would also use them with almost no abstraction. Sometimes one writes code (declaring a variable, for instance) just for consistence and convenience, and then some patterns get more explicit |
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| 13:31:35 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
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| 13:33:31 | <tomsmeding> | I would maybe even go so far as to say the following: type classes that are fully specified by a set of algebraic laws could be called _algebraic type classes_ |
| 13:33:41 | <tomsmeding> | examples: Monoid, Monad, Eq, etc. |
| 13:33:46 | <tomsmeding> | MonadIO |
| 13:34:07 | <tomsmeding> | they're a subset of the useful type classes that correspond, in a way, to some mathematical concept |
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| 13:34:19 | <tomsmeding> | not all abstraction corresponds to a mathematical concept, and yet we want to use such abstractions too |
| 13:34:49 | <danse-nr3_> | well i think they do, but those are trivial concepts that do not involve laws |
| 13:35:09 | <tomsmeding> | but they are not fully specified by the mathematical concept |
| 13:35:24 | <tomsmeding> | everything about Eq is specified by being being an equivalence relation |
| 13:35:40 | <tomsmeding> | there might be some trivial properties about Hashable, but there is more to it than just that |
| 13:36:41 | <tomsmeding> | what are the laws of ToField? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sqlite-simple-0.4.18.2/docs/Database-SQLite-Simple-ToField.html |
| 13:37:16 | <danse-nr3_> | i agree that having a specific concept like "algebraic type classes" or something similar would make sense |
| 13:37:18 | <tomsmeding> | one might say that there are some laws in combination with FromField, that they have to be inverses of each other in some sense. So there are laws you can formulate. But surely that's not all there is too them! |
| 13:37:37 | <tomsmeding> | they also have to map naturally into the SQL data type domain, and that's an essential component of the abstraction |
| 13:38:00 | <tomsmeding> | s/too them/to them/ |
| 13:38:17 | <Rembane> | That sounds painful and like a nice research project. |
| 13:38:25 | <tomsmeding> | what does? |
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| 13:38:36 | <Rembane> | Adding and proving laws to FromField and ToField. |
| 13:38:59 | <tomsmeding> | hah |
| 13:39:03 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 13:39:26 | <tomsmeding> | but my point is that not all of the semantics abstracted by those classes will be contained in those laws |
| 13:40:00 | <Rembane> | I agree. |
| 13:40:04 | <tomsmeding> | good luck formalising that String ought to map to SQLText and Text also, but ByteString ought not to |
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| 15:52:53 | <fendor> | Can I have Codensity for a graded/parameterised monad in Haskell? |
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| 16:03:16 | <lyxia> | fendor: sure |
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| 16:04:33 | <lyxia> | newtype Codensity m g a = Codensity (forall h r. (a -> m h r) -> m (g <> h) r) |
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| 16:06:50 | <fendor> | Where `<>` is some appropriate monoid... That makes sense, and for a parameterised monad? I had `newtype ICodensity m p q a = ICodensity (forall c . (a -> m p q c) -> m p q c)` |
| 16:07:02 | <fendor> | but that looks like it is incorrect |
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| 16:07:19 | <fendor> | the inner p and q should be i and j, |
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| 16:09:58 | <ncf> | ICodensity m j k a = ICodensity (forall c. (a -> m i j c) -> m i k c) ? |
| 16:10:06 | <ncf> | might need to swap them depending on how you're composing |
| 16:10:37 | <fendor> | and it should be `forall i.` I assume? |
| 16:10:52 | <ncf> | yeah |
| 16:11:59 | <fendor> | I am not sure I see that this is correct... Why is j and k in the post condition only? |
| 16:12:34 | <fendor> | s/that/why/ |
| 16:14:25 | <ncf> | think of yoneda: (j -> k) is isomorphic to (forall i. (i -> j) -> i -> k) |
| 16:15:23 | <ncf> | or just partially apply your bind operator to some value of type m j k a and see what type you get |
| 16:16:53 | <fendor> | ah, ok, that makes sense |
| 16:21:55 | <fendor> | thanks! |
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| 16:39:35 | <fendor> | ncf, btw, when I enter `m j k a >>=` it becomes `(a -> m j k b) -> m i k b`. Which probably is what you meant by swapping? |
| 16:40:35 | <ncf> | yeah |
| 16:40:55 | <fendor> | thank you for your help! |
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| 18:02:20 | <exarkun> | Anyone have experience with or opinions about https://ramirez7.github.io/monad-fault/Control-Monad-Trans-Fault.html or similar libraries? Can it be said either that "fault injection" a good or bad idea in Haskell? |
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| 18:33:22 | <zincy> | let centering_matrix: OMatrix<f64, Dyn, Dyn> = OMatrix::<f64, Dyn, Dyn>::from_vec(n, m.ncols(), col_means); |
| 18:33:30 | <zincy> | Oh wrong channel sorry |
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| 18:49:27 | <exarkun> | no opinions on fault injection huh |
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| 19:04:23 | <monochrom> | I don't know fault injection. I don't suppose it would hurt. |
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| 19:10:45 | <mauke> | I inject my faults the old-fashioned way, using a keyboard |
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| 19:11:29 | <danse-nr3_> | i do not have many opinions on transformers, normally my efforts are geared towards moving most logic to pure functions |
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| 19:14:45 | <exarkun> | I do like pure functions. |
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| 19:17:48 | <davean> | Pure functions is where most logic should be |
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| 19:22:25 | <mauke> | in haskell, all functions are pure |
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| 19:22:48 | <mauke> | s/all/most/ |
| 19:23:19 | <exarkun> | did you count them |
| 19:23:50 | <EvanR> | in haskell the purity of the function reflects the purity of the person who wrote it's heart |
| 19:24:06 | <davean> | mauke: I don't consider FFI pure really. |
| 19:24:17 | <mauke> | I discounted unsafePerformIO and trace |
| 19:25:00 | <exarkun> | if you enumerate all possible functions, what is the ratio of safe to unsafe |
| 19:25:04 | <exarkun> | I mean pure to impure |
| 19:25:26 | <EvanR> | don't try to enumerate all functions |
| 19:25:39 | <exarkun> | There's more than one way to take a pure function and make it impure, so the ratio of impure to pure must be greater than 1 |
| 19:25:39 | <tomsmeding> | > let inf = read "Infinity" :: Double in inf / inf |
| 19:25:40 | <EvanR> | that's like enumerating all reals |
| 19:25:41 | <lambdabot> | NaN |
| 19:25:53 | <exarkun> | EvanR: It's _like_ it, but there's far fewer functions than reals. |
| 19:26:03 | <EvanR> | no because how many types are there |
| 19:26:05 | <danse-nr3_> | by "pure" i meant "without side effects", meaning they do not need monads. But yeah, technically i would consider also monadic functions as pure |
| 19:26:11 | <EvanR> | for instance, reals are a type |
| 19:26:29 | <mauke> | (a ->) is a monad, so don't even get me started |
| 19:26:29 | <exarkun> | EvanR: Reals aren't a type in Haskell! |
| 19:26:48 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage exact-real |
| 19:26:48 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/exact-real |
| 19:27:17 | <exarkun> | tomsmeding: Clever, but. |
| 19:27:19 | <monochrom> | If you enumerate all possible functions, firstly what's your definition for "function"? :) |
| 19:28:05 | <monochrom> | Secondly why should I count functions that nobody writes? |
| 19:28:05 | <EvanR> | my ultrafinitism dar is going off too, watch your back |
| 19:28:37 | <EvanR> | there's only so many haskell functions you can write before someone stops paying your bills |
| 19:28:44 | <mauke> | all the lonely functions, where do they all come from |
| 19:29:40 | <monochrom> | Analogously, the density of rational numbers among real numbers (or even merely cyclotomic numbers) is 0, yet we use rational numbers so much more often than the rest. |
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| 19:30:30 | <monochrom> | The point is "ratio of all possible X" is very likely irrelevant. |
| 19:31:35 | <monochrom> | ObHaskell: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cyclotomic :) |
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| 19:32:33 | <tomsmeding> | > mutiplication |
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| 19:37:25 | <mauke> | mutable implication |
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| 19:38:54 | <monochrom> | Oh heh |
| 19:39:14 | <monochrom> | Is it OK to say you mean Kleisli arrows? :) |
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| 19:40:27 | <mauke> | huh. I just realized Kleisli /= Kleene |
| 19:40:56 | <monochrom> | Kleene also had interesting stuff. :) |
| 19:41:19 | <mauke> | I guess my brain uses hashing to locate memories |
| 19:41:56 | <darkling> | I've often felt that, too. The more you put in, the harder it is to recall the right thing, because there's more collisions. |
| 19:42:07 | <monochrom> | I think we all do. I have my share of mixing up things. |
| 19:42:19 | <darkling> | It almost certainly doesn't work that way, but it feels like a practical model. |
| 19:42:43 | <EvanR> | if IRC users have the same length nick with same beginning and ending letter, I have no idea which is which |
| 19:43:22 | <tomsmeding> | it gets worse if weechat gives them the same colour |
| 19:43:51 | <darkling> | Indeed. (Although it's HexChat here) |
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| 19:44:20 | <tomsmeding> | I added the client because I'm not sure how many others also do colours like that :p |
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| 20:59:49 | <int-e> | phma: https://paste.debian.net/1292852/ gets within 50% of Rust for me. The main change is to use mutable arrays to reduce allocations; I'm also using `vector` because the indexing there doesn't suffer from the overhead brought in by `Ix`. Using `unsafeRead` and `unsafeWrite` and `unsafeIndex` would give another 10% speedup... not dramatic. I dropped the -N RTS flags default because it made the... |
| 20:59:55 | <int-e> | ...code slower for me. Finally note that the compiler flags in the `.cabal` file only apply to the package itself, so make sure that the dependencies are actually compiled with optimizations enabled. |
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| 21:05:12 | <int-e> | (The funniest (and maybe embarrassing) part of this are two NOINLINE pragmas that made the code 2x faster.) |
| 21:07:16 | <EvanR> | NOINLINE made the code faster |
| 21:07:18 | <EvanR> | wut |
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| 21:07:48 | <davean> | NOINLINE can often make haskell faster, or slower, it depends. |
| 21:08:00 | <davean> | Haskell has a few problems with over inlining and a few problems when you don't inline |
| 21:08:10 | <davean> | one needs to consider inlining fairly carefully for performant code |
| 21:08:30 | <davean> | one example is that inlining can blow out the trace, and Haskell is already decode heavy for the CPU |
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| 21:09:32 | <davean> | int-e: Haven't looked specificly, but did you try -N with the single threaded GC? |
| 21:09:45 | <int-e> | Unfortunate inlining decisions can cause GHC to evaluate an expensive expression multiple tiems... I suspect that was the case here. |
| 21:09:59 | <davean> | int-e: yep! |
| 21:10:04 | <davean> | There are a number of issues |
| 21:10:10 | <EvanR> | so we want to be lazier |
| 21:10:17 | <davean> | EvanR: Yes, very often |
| 21:10:31 | <davean> | Haskell's performance often comes from its laziness correctly applied |
| 21:10:37 | <davean> | its the biggest hammer we have to make code faster |
| 21:10:50 | <int-e> | davean: I didn't, there's little parallelism to begin with. AIUI -N is an insane default anyway when there's hyperthreading. |
| 21:10:53 | <EvanR> | do less work, get done faster |
| 21:10:56 | <davean> | Inlining is mostly important in Haskell because it can simplify the code paths and remove indirection |
| 21:11:12 | <davean> | EvanR: its not even doing less work |
| 21:11:21 | <davean> | laziness is about control flow. |
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| 21:11:51 | <davean> | and it can also rearrange access patterns, etc |
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