Logs on 2023-09-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:54:44 | <ftworld> | Help |
| 00:55:23 | <geekosaur> | with what? |
| 00:56:00 | <ftworld> | Oh sorry first time here and I though that was a command |
| 00:56:36 | <ftworld> | I'm learning Haskell and heard about this chat |
| 00:57:44 | <geekosaur> | bot commands start with @ in here but it won't be very helpful, it has too many commands to list out in chat |
| 00:58:16 | <ftworld> | Oh thanks for the info |
| 00:58:19 | <ftworld> | @help |
| 00:58:19 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 00:58:34 | <ftworld> | @list |
| 00:58:34 | <lambdabot> | What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. |
| 00:58:52 | <ftworld> | @listmodules |
| 00:58:53 | <lambdabot> | activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search |
| 00:58:53 | <lambdabot> | seen slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where |
| 00:59:11 | <ftworld> | @help pretty |
| 00:59:11 | <lambdabot> | pretty <expr>. Display haskell code in a pretty-printed manner |
| 00:59:58 | <ftworld> | @help Prelude |
| 00:59:58 | <lambdabot> | help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands |
| 01:00:10 | <geekosaur> | https://github.com/geekosaur/lambdabot/blob/command-doc/doc/commands.md |
| 01:00:20 | <geekosaur> | (which is waiting to be merged) |
| 01:00:36 | <ftworld> | Thanks for that I'm going to read it |
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| 01:06:19 | <ftworld> | @learn |
| 01:06:19 | <lambdabot> | https://wiki.haskell.org/Learning_Haskell |
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| 02:35:09 | <pony> | since (*)'s type is a -> a -> a, what would be a good way to do generic multiplication between two different types? |
| 02:38:55 | <geekosaur> | there isn't one; "generic multiplication" is too general. multiplying a matrix by a scalar vs. amother matrix are two very different things, for example |
| 02:39:22 | <geekosaur> | even if you stick to scalar types, about your only option is to promote to Double and risk losing precision |
| 02:39:28 | <pony> | ok but, I can't have the same name or (new) operator for both of those things? |
| 02:39:42 | <geekosaur> | (the php and javascript solution) |
| 02:39:45 | <geekosaur> | no, you can't |
| 02:39:48 | <pony> | ok |
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| 02:52:17 | <EvanR> | you could use *. or .* to indicate scaling a vector by a scalar |
| 02:52:35 | <EvanR> | ./ to anti-scale xD |
| 02:55:27 | <pony> | I think I will just call that scale :P |
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| 03:00:07 | <pony> | not sure what I'll call tuple vs. matrix multiplication |
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| 03:16:42 | <jackdk> | The operator names in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linear may give you some inspiration, ironically also by an "Ed". |
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| 03:16:52 | <Axman6> | pony: do you have a more concrete example? |
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| 03:17:34 | <Axman6> | you could define something like class Mul a b c | a b -> c where (.*.) :: a -> b -> c. Not particularly easy to define laws for that |
| 03:17:47 | <Axman6> | Yeah i was going to suggest linear too |
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| 03:20:22 | <pony> | ahh |
| 03:20:27 | <pony> | yeah, that looks handy, thanks |
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| 06:03:50 | <haskellbridge> | <tewuzij> Can Haskell multiply tensors? |
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| 06:15:08 | <tomsmeding> | tewuzij: what do you mean with multiplying tensors? |
| 06:15:09 | <EvanR> | yes haskell can do that! |
| 06:15:21 | <tomsmeding> | both "tensor" and "multiply" have various meanings in this context |
| 06:15:40 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, haskell is a turing-complete language so "yes", but that's not the answer you're looking for |
| 06:15:50 | <EvanR> | figured tewuzij meant composing tensors |
| 06:16:10 | <EvanR> | in the sense that multiplying matrices is linear function composition |
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| 06:24:50 | <phma> | int-e: I applied the patch, manually edited some hunks (I was working on some code I hadn't pushed yet), and got it to compile, but when I ran test.sh, it failed. |
| 06:25:20 | <Inst> | tomsmeding: tensorflow bindings are still being updated, but not sure whether they'll dump it onto Hackage. |
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| 06:25:52 | <phma> | int-e: Could you try again, make sure it passes test.sh, and submit a pull request? |
| 06:27:27 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: how did you go from "multiplying tensors" to "tensorflow"? :p |
| 06:27:39 | <tomsmeding> | that's another meaning of "tensor" that I didn't even think of just no |
| 06:27:41 | <tomsmeding> | *now |
| 06:27:56 | <tomsmeding> | the tensorflow-haskell bindings in their github repository work fine |
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| 06:28:03 | <tomsmeding> | (with TF 2.10.1) |
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| 06:28:17 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: do you mean hadamard multiplication? |
| 06:28:21 | <tomsmeding> | or something else |
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| 06:29:25 | <tomsmeding> | people should get more precise what they mean with a "tensor" and its operations, it can mean like 3+ different things |
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| 06:36:25 | <Inst> | https://dev.to/piq9117/using-github-repos-as-haskell-dependency-m2o |
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| 06:38:39 | <Inst> | so it should be possible to get that to work... the only annoying thing is that I think Haskell is hard enough to pick up, learning the build tools as well is annoying |
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| 06:42:30 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: that looks like precisely what you need to do, indeed |
| 06:42:44 | <tomsmeding> | although the packages: line can be shortened to just 'packages: .' |
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| 06:43:42 | <tomsmeding> | you may need this commit though https://github.com/tomsmeding/tensorflow-haskell/commit/a4dc584652cfeeb15c27c4408c68aa4b4134a4b1 |
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| 06:49:57 | <Inst> | I'm not really into Tensorflow, more over whether it's usable or not. And I notice your help with accelerate, which I'd consider more of a key package, so thank you for that. |
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| 06:50:49 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: I'm in the same office at work as the people who currently work on accelerate, even if I'm not currently doing much on it code-wise |
| 06:51:09 | <tomsmeding> | and since they're not in this channel I like to do some of the tech support here :p |
| 06:51:28 | <Inst> | Is there any time table for the accelerate hackage to be usable? I'm under the impression that accelerate is labor starved, and while I'm willing to risk trying to work on Cabal, accelerate and CUDA is totally beyond my ken. |
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| 06:52:08 | <tomsmeding> | labor starved yes, there were plans a month or 3 ago to just push an update, but that never materialised |
| 06:52:16 | <tomsmeding> | I can push a bit again :p |
| 06:52:28 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: are you a user of accelerate? |
| 06:52:38 | <Inst> | I WANT to be a user, but not without going to stack or nix. :( |
| 06:53:10 | <Inst> | What I'm thinking is, if you have a Rustacaean come in and complain that Haskell is slower than Rust, we can just drag out accelerate for "not if you cheat with GPU compute" |
| 06:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | there are various accelerate-* packages on hackage, like accelerate-fft and others. Would you mind an accelerate update _without_ updating all the ancillary packages, updating those only following demand? |
| 06:54:02 | <Inst> | My vision is more, Haskell's arrayfire exists, so does accelerate, but having accelerate be useful for general purpose GPU compute would be great, and that's all I think is needed. |
| 06:54:10 | <Inst> | *so does Halide-haskell, but that's bound to nix |
| 06:54:49 | <tomsmeding> | accelerate is not quite arrayfire, if that's what you're implying |
| 06:54:54 | <tomsmeding> | but I get your point, I think |
| 06:55:07 | <Inst> | In what sense is accelerate unlike arrayfire? |
| 06:55:16 | <tomsmeding> | arrayfire has no 'run' method |
| 06:55:44 | <tomsmeding> | in particular you can use arrayfire arrays as if they're usual arrays, and at the point you do something with them that arrayfire cannot stage in an AST, it'll evaluate and give you an actual array |
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| 06:56:02 | <tomsmeding> | accelerate requires you to build your whole model/program/thing in one go, submit it for execution ('run'), and obtain the result |
| 06:56:15 | <tomsmeding> | which allows more optimisation budget |
| 06:56:24 | <tomsmeding> | both models have upsides and downsides |
| 06:56:33 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage repa |
| 06:56:33 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/repa |
| 06:56:45 | <tomsmeding> | that has sorta more the arrayfire model, except it doesn't try doing anything with GPU |
| 06:57:17 | <tomsmeding> | (but in haskell-style where the materialisation is type-driven instead of dynamically usage-driven) |
| 06:58:36 | <tomsmeding> | as I understand it, massiv is similar to repa, but I dunno |
| 06:59:56 | <Inst> | not sure whether it's nice to ask for accelerate to be updated on my part, i.e, it'd be nice for it to be usable and for parallel and concurrent programming in Haskell not to feature a library that's difficult to obtain and use with latest GHCs |
| 07:00:11 | <Inst> | but for accelerate to be "great" given the existence of alternative options |
| 07:00:19 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: would you consider having to manually install LLVM "usable" :p |
| 07:00:59 | <Inst> | I know Columbia at least in the past, was teaching a Haskell course based on Parallel and Concurrent Programming |
| 07:01:05 | <tomsmeding> | there is long-term talk of making accelerate talk to the LLVM command-line tools instead of binding too libLLVM.so in order to be more flexible in how LLVM is installed |
| 07:01:12 | <Inst> | I don't know if anyone else is doing so, and I have no idea what's going on in the education sector |
| 07:01:37 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: our university has a Concurrency course in the bachelor that uses haskell, and has one assignment using accelerate :p |
| 07:01:41 | <tomsmeding> | (at least currently) |
| 07:01:51 | <Inst> | for accelerate to be great you'd need lots more labor |
| 07:01:59 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
| 07:02:10 | <Inst> | and on my part, I can't provide it, even trying to help with Cabal is a bit of a reach |
| 07:02:31 | <tomsmeding> | yeah accelerate is unfortunately quite a difficult project to get involved in |
| 07:02:33 | <Inst> | I'm wondering, one thing I was thinking about was whether it's possible to round up undergrads and use them as cheap labor? |
| 07:03:14 | <tomsmeding> | for various reasons; the well-typed setup is a barrier, but also just the domain (staged programming) is not simple, and the backends deal with LLVM and code generation and CUDA interfacing and are thus also not simple |
| 07:03:23 | <Inst> | I mean, not for accelerate, but in general |
| 07:03:38 | <Inst> | I was looking at Codesmith.io, but it turns out they're running sort of a scam |
| 07:03:55 | <tomsmeding> | there are multiple master student theses on accelerate per year |
| 07:04:03 | <Inst> | their bootcamp involves having their students "work" at a private FOSS |
| 07:04:07 | <tomsmeding> | but they typically don't end up with production code yet |
| 07:04:13 | <Inst> | hmmm |
| 07:04:15 | <tomsmeding> | going the last mile is not research work |
| 07:04:20 | <Inst> | I'm wondering if accelerate team, if there's enough labor to care about it |
| 07:04:20 | <tomsmeding> | so hard to ask from students |
| 07:04:32 | <Inst> | is willing to help support those students in return for some labor work? |
| 07:04:38 | <tomsmeding> | > private FOSS |
| 07:04:42 | <tomsmeding> | what even is that |
| 07:04:50 | <Inst> | they set up a foundation that purportedly does FOSS |
| 07:05:05 | <Inst> | part of attending their boot camp, you contribute to that foundation, possibly with junk projects of low quality |
| 07:05:09 | <Inst> | but it gets into your resume |
| 07:05:17 | <Inst> | and it looks like you have FOSS experience, which makes you a more desirable hire |
| 07:05:30 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: I mean, a master thesis is supposed to be researchy, so we could well ask them to do engineering work and they may well be happy, but we'd have to grade that and judge its research value and have to judge low, and it'd be our fault |
| 07:05:40 | <tomsmeding> | getting them to do the work outside of a thesis is harder :p |
| 07:05:50 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: I see |
| 07:05:56 | <tomsmeding> | that sounds like a scam lol |
| 07:06:01 | <Inst> | ummm, it 100% is a scam? |
| 07:06:07 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 07:06:37 | <Inst> | but it sounds like, say, if someone wants to FOSS work on accelerate, complete the engineering work so they can put it on their resume, I'm not sure if that would be sufficient incentive? |
| 07:07:02 | <Inst> | and in general, for UGs, whether they'd be willing to trade labor for being able to staple FOSS work onto their resume? |
| 07:07:11 | <tomsmeding> | if they want to do some of the engineering work, that would be great, but who's going to pay for that |
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| 07:07:27 | <tomsmeding> | again, accelerate is _not_ an easy project to get into |
| 07:07:30 | <Inst> | their remuneration comes from a resume booster, but the assumption I'm making is that companies still value FOSS work |
| 07:07:48 | <tomsmeding> | if the point is stapling FOSS to their resume, I would advise them, for their own sakes, to not do that with Acc :p |
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| 07:08:21 | <tomsmeding> | there must be intrinsic motivation to do work on Acc and not be scared away |
| 07:09:16 | <tomsmeding> | code review time budgets are not any higher than development time budgets (which are currently all going to a complete rearchitecturing of compilation pipeline, by the way -- there's lots of work going on, it's just not visible) |
| 07:09:24 | <Inst> | So I'm assuming there's a big leap from a research paper on accelerate to actually working on the FOSS project? |
| 07:09:35 | <tomsmeding> | but if a capable person shows up who wants to do engineering work, I'm fairly sure we won't say no :p |
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| 07:09:41 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: yeah |
| 07:10:02 | <Inst> | Sort of disappointing, to have people write masters thesis without a strong understanding of the codebase |
| 07:10:26 | <tomsmeding> | I mean in a masters thesis they get 6 months or so of ~uninterrupted time to work on this |
| 07:10:45 | <tomsmeding> | that's sufficient to get at least familiarity with the part of the codebase you're to be working on |
| 07:11:01 | <tomsmeding> | and do useful work there |
| 07:11:13 | <tomsmeding> | but that's an unusual amount of time to have for stuff like this, in general |
| 07:13:41 | <tomsmeding> | Inst: another barrier for adoption for accelerate is that using it on windows is a PITA |
| 07:13:47 | <tomsmeding> | WSL2 works fine |
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| 07:17:14 | <tomsmeding> | (but PSA: if you want to help with accelerate, that's great, but _contact us first_, the consequence of being a small team means that there's rearchitecturing stuff going on that's not publicly documented, even if the code is public on some fork -- we can tell you which fork) |
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| 08:34:59 | <lockywolf> | Can someone explain to me what is happening here? https://paste.debian.net/1292946/ |
| 08:35:52 | <lockywolf> | Seemingly says that "if ghc is new, require older Cabal, and if ghc is old, use new Cabal" |
| 08:35:59 | <lockywolf> | which seems to make no sense |
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| 08:36:33 | <lockywolf> | this is a fragment of hackage-security |
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| 08:42:13 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: see https://hackage.haskell.org/package/Cabal-syntax-3.6.0.0 |
| 08:42:28 | <tomsmeding> | Cabal split out the syntax portion in 3.8 (there is no 3.7) |
| 08:42:57 | <tomsmeding> | so if the flag is true, we're in the new world with new everything; if the flag is false or ghc is old, we're in the old world pre-split |
| 08:43:35 | <mauke> | lockywolf: which version are you calling "new Cabal"? |
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| 08:45:31 | <lockywolf> | hm... |
| 08:46:17 | <lockywolf> | mauke: 3.10 |
| 08:47:19 | <mauke> | then nothing in there says "use new Cabal" |
| 08:47:48 | <lockywolf> | hm... |
| 08:47:51 | <mauke> | it is: if ghc is new, require older Cabal, and if ghc is old, use even olderer Cabal |
| 08:50:01 | <tomsmeding> | the conditional makes much more sense when viewed from the perspective of: if flag is on, use newer Cabal; if flag is off, use older Cabal. It's just that newer Cabal requires a non-ancient ghc, so with ancient ghc, we are in the old world anyway |
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| 09:33:02 | <dminuoso> | Curious, whats the point of separating the Cabal-syntax library, if it depends on Cabal itself anyway? |
| 09:33:27 | <dminuoso> | At first glance it appears they are released in tandem at the same versions too. |
| 09:34:19 | <dminuoso> | Ohh hold on, tomsmeding's link was to the old 3.6.0.0 library, nevermind me. |
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| 09:56:07 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: 3.6 had relevant text in the package description that I wanted to link to |
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| 10:13:08 | <lockywolf> | dminuoso: Cabal depends on Cabal-syntax, not the other way round |
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| 10:18:38 | <lockywolf> | One more question: hackage-security page https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hackage-security is saying that it wants Cabal <3.7 . Why stick to an older version? |
| 10:19:13 | <lockywolf> | Meanwhile when I am trying to build it, it is saying Encountered missing or private dependencies: Cabal-syntax <3.10. So that <3.7 is misleading? |
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| 10:25:38 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: that's the Cabal-syntax flag |
| 10:25:45 | <tomsmeding> | re-read what I wrote above |
| 10:26:22 | <tomsmeding> | hackage seems to default the cabal-syntax flag to off |
| 10:26:41 | <tomsmeding> | in which case it will go to the 'else' part of the conditional, which is Cabal<3.7 |
| 10:27:23 | <tomsmeding> | but locally on your system, Cabal sees that we're building against a newer Cabal, and because 'cabal-syntax' is an automatic flag of hackage-security, Cabal is allowed to switch that flag to get a working configuration |
| 10:27:37 | × | pounce quits (~pounce@user/cute/pounce) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 10:27:40 | <tomsmeding> | hence, assuming you have ghc >= 8.2, getting you the 'then' branch of the conditional |
| 10:28:03 | <lockywolf> | Is it even possible to build hackage-security with a newer Cabal? |
| 10:28:12 | <tomsmeding> | yes, just do it |
| 10:28:32 | <lockywolf> | "Encountered missing or private dependencies: Cabal-syntax <3.10" |
| 10:28:43 | <tomsmeding> | Cabal will, in its dependency/flag solving process, determine that the 'cabal-syntax' flag should be on, and set it to that |
| 10:28:49 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: now you'll need to post the full cabal output |
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| 10:31:17 | <lockywolf> | https://paste.debian.net/1292952/ |
| 10:31:34 | <lockywolf> | not sure what you mean by "full cabal output" |
| 10:32:30 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: are you using a cabal command to build something? If so, what's that command and what's its output? |
| 10:32:38 | <tomsmeding> | What command produced the output that you've just posted? |
| 10:32:52 | <lockywolf> | ./my_buildscript.sh |
| 10:33:02 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 10:33:33 | <lockywolf> | https://paste.debian.net/1292953/ |
| 10:33:56 | <tomsmeding> | turn on -fcabal-syntax |
| 10:34:02 | <tomsmeding> | I'm not sure how to do that with plain Setup.hs |
| 10:34:31 | <tomsmeding> | and make sure that the build process can find Cabal-syntax, because it is a dependency |
| 10:34:45 | <tomsmeding> | wait with what ghc are you trying to build this |
| 10:35:05 | <tomsmeding> | 'base >=4.5 && <4.8' looks highly suspicious |
| 10:36:15 | <lockywolf> | 8.10.4 |
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| 10:39:14 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: have you managed to pass -fcabal-syntax to something, perhaps that 'Setup configure' command? |
| 10:39:41 | <tomsmeding> | by the way, side note: always mention you're using plain Setup.hs when asking about something here, because people will _not_ assume that's the case and miscommunications can occur :p |
| 10:40:10 | <lockywolf> | 🤷 |
| 10:40:14 | <tomsmeding> | I have no clue if Setup.hs does automatic flag assignment, and this hackage-security package kind of relies on that |
| 10:40:18 | <tomsmeding> | so you'll need to do it manually |
| 10:40:21 | <lockywolf> | that's how all packages are built in our distro |
| 10:40:50 | <tomsmeding> | right, but nobody but almost nobody except distro package maintainers or cabal devs deal with Setup.hs |
| 10:42:10 | <lockywolf> | https://paste.debian.net/1292954/ |
| 10:42:30 | <lockywolf> | well, I know no other way |
| 10:42:35 | <tomsmeding> | `cabal build` :p |
| 10:42:39 | <tomsmeding> | that's what normal people use |
| 10:42:44 | <tomsmeding> | anyway |
| 10:42:57 | <lockywolf> | to get that command to work, you first need to build cabal |
| 10:43:07 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: in other situations, when you got this "Encountered missing or privte dependencies" error, what was the solution? |
| 10:43:24 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 10:43:31 | <lockywolf> | I never met that error before |
| 10:44:28 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: what if you enable -fbase48 |
| 10:45:03 | <lockywolf> | the missing dependency for base disappears |
| 10:45:07 | <tomsmeding> | that's good! |
| 10:45:13 | <lockywolf> | Encountered missing or private dependencies: Cabal-syntax >=3.7 && <3.10, network >=2.5 && <2.6 |
| 10:45:40 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: -fuse-network-uri |
| 10:46:16 | <lockywolf> | network dep disappears |
| 10:46:42 | <tomsmeding> | do you have Cabal-syntax available as a dependency for this build? If so, at what version? |
| 10:46:55 | <lockywolf> | I have built it myself |
| 10:47:06 | <tomsmeding> | sure, which version? |
| 10:47:53 | <tomsmeding> | I wonder where that <3.10 constraint comes from |
| 10:48:04 | <lockywolf> | 3.10.1.0 |
| 10:48:34 | <tomsmeding> | right, that doesn't match the <3.10 constraint, hence Setup not succeeding. But it's weird, because hackage-security declares >=3.7 && <3.12 |
| 10:48:36 | <tomsmeding> | not <3.10 |
| 10:48:45 | <tomsmeding> | what version of Cabal are you building with? |
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| 10:49:02 | <lockywolf> | same as Cabal-syntax |
| 10:49:25 | <lockywolf> | 3.10.1.0 |
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| 10:50:04 | <tomsmeding> | side note about those flags: if you look here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hackage-security and open the "Automatic Flags" box, you'll see there are a bunch of flags that Cabal is supposed to automatically solve for when building a package. You don't have cabal-install yet, so you have to do this manually |
| 10:50:14 | <tomsmeding> | hence needing to -f a few well-chosen things |
| 10:50:33 | <lockywolf> | hah, thank you for telling me |
| 10:50:53 | <lockywolf> | are there some transitive flags? |
| 10:51:04 | <tomsmeding> | if you clock the "Package description" link you get the hackage-security.cabal file, which has (fortunately!) plentiful comments about why exactly those flags are there and what they do |
| 10:51:10 | <tomsmeding> | what do you mean with transitive? |
| 10:51:31 | <tomsmeding> | (those comments in the .cabal file are how I even came up with these suggestions) |
| 10:52:33 | <lockywolf> | I mean, if a package A depends on package B built with flag F, which makes it use package C, not package D, will A become transitively dependent on C? |
| 10:52:41 | <tomsmeding> | can you grep for the string "3.10" or something :p |
| 10:52:47 | <tomsmeding> | in sources of stuff you've already built |
| 10:53:14 | <tomsmeding> | flags can be used in conditionals in the .cabal file (the build spec), hence can influence dependencies, yes |
| 10:53:44 | <lockywolf> | I see |
| 10:56:28 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: _something_ is constraining Cabal-syntax < 3.10, but you don't want that because you want to build with 3.10, to match Cabal |
| 10:56:36 | <tomsmeding> | I just have no clue what that something would be |
| 10:56:47 | <tomsmeding> | hence my hope that you can find something by grepping for "3.10" |
| 10:56:59 | <lockywolf> | it would have been nice if the build system could print the name of that "something" |
| 10:57:20 | <tomsmeding> | it would, wouldn't it? |
| 10:57:25 | <tomsmeding> | does Setup have some kind of --verbose |
| 11:04:17 | <lockywolf> | I am trying to rebuild haskell-Cabal-syntax, and it is complaining: Something is amiss; requested module mtl-2.2.2:Control.Monad.State.Class differs from name found in the interface file mtl-2.2.2:Control.Monad.State.Class |
| 11:05:40 | <lockywolf> | and Cabal-syntax, seemingly, has no flags |
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| 11:06:24 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: is there a particular reason why you're using mtl 2.2.2 and not 2.3.1? |
| 11:07:42 | <lockywolf> | yeah, it's in my repo by default |
| 11:07:46 | <tomsmeding> | but in general this sounds like "rebuild mtl, something changed in the dependencies that changed flags / hashes" |
| 11:07:50 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 11:08:01 | <tomsmeding> | not that I expect the mtl _version_ to be the problem here, 2.2.2 is new enough |
| 11:09:42 | <lockywolf> | this versioning thing seems to be a big part of haskell's cultulre |
| 11:10:37 | <tomsmeding> | there is a haskell "subculture" that revolves around stackage, which is a versioned _snapshot_: you choose a stackage version, and you get a list of packages including versions and flag configuration that work together |
| 11:10:54 | <tomsmeding> | this came later as a response to not wanting to deal with versions |
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| 11:11:26 | <tomsmeding> | luckily packages written with stackage in mind are not _too_ incompatible with the cabal-install world, so it's not a full ecosystem fork |
| 11:12:53 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: essentially the source of the "trouble" is that we care about having built against source code artifact X, so later being presented with source code artifact Y and being told it's the same-ish as X we refuse to be compiled instead of saying "sure" |
| 11:13:20 | <tomsmeding> | this is different from e.g. the NodeJS culture where, due to being in an untyped language, people just push stuff together and hope it works |
| 11:13:39 | <tomsmeding> | also from C culture where it's a common expectation to be able to update dynamically linked libraries from under your feet |
| 11:14:02 | <tomsmeding> | this is also the reason why haskell does NOT go well with dynamic linking (of haskell dependencies) |
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| 11:14:37 | <tomsmeding> | because you cannot just exchange dep A-2.1 for dep A-2.2, or even dep A-2.1 with some other flag set |
| 11:15:20 | <tomsmeding> | because there is no fixed ABI, so those versions are probably _not_ going to be compatible, even if at source-code level, A didn't relevantly change between those versions |
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| 11:15:36 | <lockywolf> | I see |
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| 11:15:55 | <lockywolf> | but Go and Rust allow "vendored builds" |
| 11:16:20 | <lockywolf> | where I can just download everything needed into a single directory, all the dependency tree, and ignore systemwide deps |
| 11:16:33 | <lockywolf> | well, ignore systemwide Go/Rust deps |
| 11:16:57 | <lockywolf> | low-level C/C++ shared libraries will still have to be compatible |
| 11:17:38 | <tomsmeding> | cabal also allows this, if you write a cabal.project file :p |
| 11:17:40 | <tomsmeding> | but then you need cabal |
| 11:18:26 | <lockywolf> | yes, building cabal would have been nice |
| 11:18:48 | <lockywolf> | I can try rebuilding mtl |
| 11:20:34 | <tomsmeding> | yeah |
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| 11:30:28 | <lockywolf> | What are "show off" projects written in Haskell? Are there any other than pandoc? |
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| 11:36:41 | <lockywolf> | yes, seems to work |
| 11:37:42 | <yushyin> | xmonad, shellcheck, hledger, agda, purescript, elm are some of the well-known haskell projects, i guess |
| 11:38:01 | <ncf> | don't forget pandoc |
| 11:38:51 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> postgrest, facebook's spam checker, cardano ... |
| 11:39:02 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> idris |
| 11:39:21 | <ncf> | ghc |
| 11:40:10 | <ncf> | hakyll, darcs |
| 11:43:39 | <Rembane> | Dhall IIRC |
| 11:43:59 | <ncf> | glirc |
| 11:45:05 | <tomsmeding> | Futhark |
| 11:47:25 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: re "Go and Rust allow "vendored builds"" -- for rust, also if you build cargo manually? Cargo has a bunch of dependencies, and surely those are not all vendored in |
| 11:47:56 | <lockywolf> | tomsmeding: I am fine with building cabal by hand |
| 11:48:22 | <lockywolf> | if that lets me create "static" packages, similar to what cargo does |
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| 11:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | "static" meaning "having no dynamically-linked dependencies"? |
| 11:49:45 | <tomsmeding> | haskell packages are linked statically by default, but any C dependencies are linked dynamically by default. Changing that is hard, and sometimes not even supported by the C dependency in question (glibc cannot be linked statically, or you will suffer) |
| 11:49:53 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> shelltestrunner, Co-Star, Facebook's Glean, Microsoft's Bond, Galois' Copilot, Freckle |
| 11:50:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Southern Exposure, Seed Exchange, Bazqux |
| 11:50:39 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Bazqux |
| 11:53:20 | <lockywolf> | wait, ghc contains mtl? |
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| 11:56:37 | <lockywolf> | Well, I was imprecise. Static meaning it won't link in systemwide libs, even though those are static libs |
| 11:57:38 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: what do you mean with "systemwide libs"? Haskell libraries or C libraries? |
| 11:57:46 | <lockywolf> | haskell libraries |
| 11:58:11 | <tomsmeding> | a distinction is made there because Haskell libraries follow GHC's internal calling convention, which is unstable over recompilations and GHC versions, whereas C libraries follow ccall which is stable |
| 11:58:18 | <tomsmeding> | haskell libraries are always linked statically |
| 11:58:30 | <tomsmeding> | unless you pass -dynamic, but then good luck, you're (mostly) on your own |
| 11:59:08 | <tomsmeding> | (in particular, do not expect to be able to exchange dependency version X with dependency version X', as I explained above) |
| 11:59:12 | <lockywolf> | I mean, that if I can ignore systemwide-installed (static) libs, it would be okay |
| 11:59:34 | <tomsmeding> | any haskell executable will depend only on C libraries if you don't pass -dynamic to GHC, and I hope you don't |
| 11:59:57 | <lockywolf> | it will use systemwide haskell libs when built |
| 11:59:58 | <tomsmeding> | "systemwide-installed" and "static" are two orthogonal properties |
| 12:00:22 | <lockywolf> | well... if you want to be pedantic |
| 12:00:29 | <tomsmeding> | "systemwide" contrasts with "local" (as in, not in a well-known folder near /), whereas "static" (typically .a) contrasts with "dynamic" (typically .so) |
| 12:00:36 | <lockywolf> | static libraries are usually not installed systemwide |
| 12:00:36 | <tomsmeding> | hence my clarifying questions :p |
| 12:00:40 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
| 12:00:54 | <lockywolf> | unless it is haskell |
| 12:01:05 | <tomsmeding> | indeed, because haskell wants to link statically |
| 12:01:09 | <tomsmeding> | so it needs the .a's of dependencies |
| 12:01:16 | <tomsmeding> | haskell dependencies, that is |
| 12:02:05 | <lockywolf> | so my point is for packaging software, I would prefer ignoring systemwide haskell libraries entirely, and just download everything into ./vendor/ and build from scratch |
| 12:04:21 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 12:04:29 | <tomsmeding> | I think you can do that, right? |
| 12:04:37 | <yushyin> | i would just use cabal v2- |
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| 12:04:45 | <tomsmeding> | yushyin: they're trying to build cabal |
| 12:04:51 | <tomsmeding> | there is no cabal yet |
| 12:05:04 | <tomsmeding> | they're a package maintainer for a linux distro |
| 12:05:07 | <yushyin> | ah |
| 12:05:09 | <yushyin> | i see |
| 12:05:17 | <tomsmeding> | as I said before, this is important context :p |
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| 12:05:52 | <yushyin> | yeah, sorry, i didn't follow the whole conversation |
| 12:06:10 | <lockywolf> | I wouldn't call myself a "package maintainer" :D |
| 12:06:31 | <lockywolf> | those people usually are employed by distro companies and get money for their job |
| 12:08:11 | <lockywolf> | whereas I am just installing some software on my own machine |
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| 12:19:07 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: "get money" welcome to the real world |
| 12:19:23 | <lockywolf> | :D |
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| 12:19:49 | <tomsmeding> | is there really no pre-built cabal executable that you can download from somewhere that will work? |
| 12:20:07 | <tomsmeding> | if this is not for some well-intentioned but overly principled package system that does not allow downloaded binaries |
| 12:20:27 | <tomsmeding> | what about "download ghcup" does not work for you |
| 12:20:58 | <tomsmeding> | ghcup is probably not tested on slackware, but if ghc works (apparently it does), you may have some success |
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| 12:36:58 | <lockywolf> | no, this is really weird for hackage-security |
| 12:37:22 | <lockywolf> | why would it have build-depends: Cabal-syntax >= 3.7 && < 3.10 ? |
| 12:40:31 | <lockywolf> | is there a way to unset a flag? |
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| 12:59:22 | <tomsmeding> | ... with cabal there is |
| 13:00:19 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: ah |
| 13:00:27 | <tomsmeding> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hackage-security-0.6.2.3/revisions/ see -r2 |
| 13:00:46 | <tomsmeding> | er, -r1, not -r2 |
| 13:01:03 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: where did you get the Cabal-syntax source tarball from? |
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| 13:01:57 | <tomsmeding> | ah hackage serves the original upload |
| 13:02:14 | <tomsmeding> | lockywolf: replace the hackage-security.cabal file with this one https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hackage-security-0.6.2.3/revision/6.cabal |
| 13:04:08 | <lockywolf> | o_0 |
| 13:05:00 | <tomsmeding> | https://github.com/haskell-infra/hackage-trustees/blob/master/revisions-information.md |
| 13:06:00 | <tomsmeding> | again, cabal would have handled this transparently :p |
| 13:06:53 | <Inst> | curious about the arch disaster with GHC |
| 13:06:56 | <Inst> | that's Felix Yan? |
| 13:07:00 | <Inst> | The Wuhan-based developer? |
| 13:08:21 | <lockywolf> | still looking at the wrong mtl |
| 13:08:37 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
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| 13:17:17 | <[exa]> | Inst: not quite a disaster tbh, actually it helped ghcup et al. a lot |
| 13:17:39 | <Axman6> | Happy little accident |
| 13:17:56 | <Inst> | What happened? |
| 13:18:18 | <Inst> | The way I recall, something was wrong with the Arch pacman repo (even though all of the distro-based deployments of GHC are flawed in some way) |
| 13:18:29 | <yushyin> | Inst: I wouldn't call it a disaster (but quite unfavorable). The arch packages around haskell are just not suitable for haskell development and for that I would always prefer ghcup anyway, where I can decide myself which and how many ghc toolchains I have installed and use. |
| 13:19:14 | <Inst> | I'm just more embarrassed because Felix Yan is... umm, well |
| 13:19:30 | <yushyin> | Inst: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Haskell#Configuration explains it |
| 13:19:59 | <Axman6> | Why you gotta make things personal? |
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| 13:21:26 | <Axman6> | I've known about then issues with Arch for years but never heard the name of anyone - engineering mistakes can be discussed without blaming engineers |
| 13:21:40 | <Inst> | I'm not even sure if it's an engineering mistake. |
| 13:23:33 | <Inst> | As to ask about Mr. Yan, I was more wondering whether the online information about him and his background makes sense, and I'd think, his choice isn't bad, actually, but it's more specific to his local circumstances than overseas. |
| 13:25:03 | <Inst> | He's operating in a country where computing is expensive relative to incomes compared to overseas, there's also import taxes and sanctions on certain types of hardware, so it's reasonable for him to choose a less stable, less resource-consuming configuration. |
| 13:25:18 | <Inst> | But obviously, not everyone's operating under his resource constraints, so... |
| 13:26:20 | <Inst> | Anyways, GHCup for everyone, unless Nix, then presumably Haskell.nix or something like that. What's the problem? |
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| 13:31:13 | <Inst> | I'm just surprised he's Chinese, I heard horrible stories about what was going on, but if he's Chinese and I know where he's approximately based, I might be able to find him in Haskell QQ or Haskell Wechat |
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| 13:32:27 | <yushyin> | With the increase in go and rust tools, arch also abandoned the idea of dynamic-linking everything. Perhaps they could reverse their decision on haskell packages after all. ;) |
| 13:32:48 | <Inst> | Why does it matter? |
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| 13:34:16 | <Inst> | The way I understand it is that his preferences come from an environment where the benefits of dynamic linking outweigh the costs. |
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| 13:34:44 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> That's not how distributors are supposed to make decisions |
| 13:35:27 | <Inst> | Well, I'd rather see if I can reach him first and if he's willing to talk. |
| 13:35:48 | <Inst> | You know the Arch GHC is 9.0.2, right? So that's why I don't really care about it, it's all antiquated stuff. |
| 13:36:12 | <Inst> | and iirc 9.0.x was a lemon, everyone moved onto 9.2.x as soon as they could, or stuck with 8.10.7 |
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| 13:38:54 | <yushyin> | yeah, we would still recommend using ghcup anyway |
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| 13:53:59 | <[exa]> | Inst: I'd say that just submitting the new pacman recipes for the "good" way to do GHC would probably be best |
| 13:54:34 | <Inst> | as in, ghcup as a separate package on pacman? |
| 13:54:41 | <Inst> | (I'd think that'd be best too) |
| 13:55:00 | <[exa]> | Inst: one of the problems there is that AFAIK the only "semi-reasonable" way to have actual distro packages for ghc is the debian way, which ain't quite optimal either |
| 13:55:01 | <int-e> | phma: The first loop in `roundDecrypt` should subtract, not add. There won't be a pull request. |
| 13:56:19 | <[exa]> | Inst: so maybe the best effort for Arch would be just to document stuff properly and tell everyone right on archwiki to just use ghcup for any development |
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| 13:56:28 | <[exa]> | afaik ghcup has arch package already |
| 13:57:05 | <Inst> | probably on AUR |
| 13:57:31 | <Inst> | https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ghcup-hs-bin |
| 13:58:14 | <[exa]> | yap |
| 13:58:54 | <[exa]> | Inst: you have account on their wiki? I guess this can be much much improved just by phrasing that well in the introduction here https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Haskell#ghcup |
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| 14:08:09 | <Inst> | Welp, cue edit war. |
| 14:10:49 | <yushyin> | the note that you *need* to uninstall any arch related haskell packages first seems wrong to me. shouldn't matter if you use ghcup+cabal correctly |
| 14:12:00 | <Inst> | Have you been able to get a Pacman-mediated Agda install working alongside Cabal? |
| 14:12:32 | <Inst> | It also means if you Syu and get newer pacman-ghc, the package might end up blowing up your path |
| 14:13:11 | <EvanR> | Inst are you on arch linux? |
| 14:13:33 | <Inst> | Ya. |
| 14:13:48 | <EvanR> | my sympathies xD |
| 14:14:14 | tomsmeding | too |
| 14:14:30 | <Inst> | What distro should I be using, then? I'd rather use NixOS, but I'm not familiar enough with the Nix toolchain, and too many people are on Cabal / Stack. |
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| 14:14:39 | <EvanR> | ain't nobody got time dealing with distros when there's haskelling to do |
| 14:14:50 | <[exa]> | Inst: actually checked the history on that page, looks like no drama present |
| 14:15:09 | <EvanR> | arch is the only distro I hear regular complains about wrt haskell stuff |
| 14:15:35 | <tomsmeding> | there are no problems if you avoid all distro packages that depend on / have haskell stuff |
| 14:15:58 | <EvanR> | like pandoc? |
| 14:16:02 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 14:16:04 | <tomsmeding> | cabal install pandoc |
| 14:16:18 | <Inst> | Yeah, sm proposed that IHP might do better if they weren't bound to Nix, I wonder if DigitallyInduced might ever be interested in supporting GHCup so they could deploy an env via it? |
| 14:16:46 | <EvanR> | thanks to arch, pandoc users on arch need to know it was written in haskell and react accordingly |
| 14:16:57 | <EvanR> | when normally you shouldn't care |
| 14:17:03 | <tomsmeding> | I, as a haskell user, do not really care :p |
| 14:17:35 | <Inst> | oh wait, so if you install pandoc, it ends up depending on the GHC 9.0.2 package, which should be past its support lifetime? |
| 14:19:09 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> a project only working via nix is a great indicator that it's borked |
| 14:21:38 | <Inst> | I mean, unless you have lots of spare time right now, I shouldn't be discussing any potential improvements for GHCup, especially since query_ didn't respond to my cold call... |
| 14:23:49 | <Inst> | Only working with Nix reminds me of Joe Armstrong's quip about OOP being "You wanted the banana but what you got was a gorilla holding the banana and the entire jungle." |
| 14:24:49 | <EvanR> | that's an evocative quotable. What does it even mean |
| 14:25:35 | <Inst> | https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/07/19/you-wanted-banana/ |
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| 14:29:04 | <EvanR> | our nice abstract high level programs run on this tower of software technology, it's just that in this case it's not exactly the same tower everyone has stockholm syndrome on |
| 14:29:16 | <EvanR> | so you don't always notice |
| 14:30:54 | <EvanR> | until you need to bring your own tower |
| 14:30:59 | <yushyin> | xD |
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| 14:50:08 | <Hecate> | I need to add easy debugging to servant-client otherwise I'm going to go mad |
| 14:50:13 | <Hecate> | this cannot go on |
| 14:51:56 | <Rembane> | Hecate: What's driving you mad? |
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| 15:03:10 | <Guest|73> | trying to install Haskell and failing miserably |
| 15:03:15 | <Rembane> | Guest|73: On what system? |
| 15:03:21 | <Guest|73> | mac |
| 15:03:35 | <Guest|73> | [ Warn ] [GHCup-00110] ghc-9.2.8 is already installed; if you really want to reinstall it, you may want to run 'ghcup install ghc --force 9.2.8' |
| 15:03:35 | <Guest|73> | [ Info ] GHC 9.2.8 successfully set as default version |
| 15:03:36 | <Guest|73> | [ Warn ] [GHCup-00110] cabal-3.6.2.0 is already installed; if you really want to reinstall it, you may want to run 'ghcup install cabal --force 3.6.2.0' |
| 15:03:36 | <Guest|73> | Could not deserialize <repo>/root.json: Malformed: (line 1, column 1): |
| 15:03:37 | <Guest|73> | unexpected "<" |
| 15:03:37 | <Guest|73> | expecting white space or JSON value |
| 15:03:38 | <Guest|73> | "cabal update --ignore-project" failed! |
| 15:03:44 | <Guest|73> | I keep getting this in my terminal |
| 15:04:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> that's a cabal issue |
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| 15:05:20 | <Guest|73> | how do I fix it? |
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| 15:06:54 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> what does this say: cat ~/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/root.json |
| 15:07:33 | <Guest|73> | No such file or directory |
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| 15:11:10 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> do you have a curl installed via brew? |
| 15:11:23 | <Guest|73> | I don't think so |
| 15:11:41 | <Guest|73> | but I think it said that was only for M1 and I'm on M2 |
| 15:12:06 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> curl https://hackage.haskell.org/root.json |
| 15:12:07 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> does this work? |
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| 15:18:56 | <Guest|73> | no it just spams a bunch of random code |
| 15:19:04 | <tomsmeding> | what random code :p |
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| 15:19:26 | <EvanR> | that doesn't sound good. Are you being pwned by haxors |
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| 15:20:05 | <Hecate> | Rembane: the maze of bullshit that constitutes the implementation of servant-client |
| 15:20:44 | <Guest|73> | I don't know what I should and shouldn't share online but its like a bunch of signatures and keys and just mumbo jumbo |
| 15:20:55 | <Guest|73> | but its made no difference I don't think |
| 15:20:56 | <tomsmeding> | does it start with < or with { |
| 15:21:15 | <tomsmeding> | it definitely will not _do_ anything, the question is: is it JSON, or HTML/XML, or something else that you get |
| 15:21:22 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Oh. That sounds painful in a very spaghetti way. |
| 15:21:27 | <Hecate> | Rembane: :( |
| 15:21:28 | <Hecate> | yes |
| 15:21:34 | <Hecate> | I'm think I'll switch to `req` |
| 15:21:48 | <Hecate> | no time for this bullshit anymore |
| 15:21:57 | <Rembane> | Sounds reasonable. |
| 15:22:04 | <Hecate> | I just want to print the generated Request |
| 15:22:04 | <Rembane> | But sad. |
| 15:22:07 | <Guest|73> | { |
| 15:22:24 | <Hecate> | but the manual says I have to switch implementation and use a ClientF |
| 15:22:48 | <Guest|73> | its all the code that you get if you open the link yourself in a browser |
| 15:22:58 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: okay that sounds good |
| 15:23:54 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: what happens if you rename ~/.ghcup to something else (i.e. remove it, but keep a backup), and then try installing ghcup again? |
| 15:24:41 | <Guest|73> | How do I rename it? Sorry if my questions are really stupid this is my first time |
| 15:25:06 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: mv ~/.ghcup ~/.ghcup-backup |
| 15:26:21 | <Guest|73> | rename /Users/tomaz/.ghcup to /Users/tomaz/.ghcup-backup/.ghcup: No such file or directory |
| 15:26:30 | <tomsmeding> | (you could also just do this in Finder, after showing hidden files -- perhaps it was cmd-shift-H, but it´s been a long time since I used mac) |
| 15:26:37 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: oh so that folder already exists :p |
| 15:26:41 | <tomsmeding> | something else then |
| 15:27:06 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> the borked file is in the .cabal dir |
| 15:27:08 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> not in .ghcup |
| 15:27:29 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 15:27:59 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: move ~/.ghcup away to something else as we discussed, and also move ~/.cabal to something else |
| 15:28:05 | <tomsmeding> | _then_ try reinstalling |
| 15:28:12 | <Guest|73> | okay ty |
| 15:28:25 | <tomsmeding> | (afterwards, if you have a working system, all these backups can be deleted, of course) |
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| 15:39:15 | Server | sets mode +Cnt |
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| 15:57:01 | <Inst> | A question for Arch users, has anyone tried to go with Stack 2.7.5 via pacman? |
| 15:57:07 | <Inst> | Does it continue to dynamically link? |
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| 16:08:17 | <yushyin> | you can tell stack to *not* use the system ghc and it should just work |
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| 16:13:39 | <davean> | Yah the entire problem is around Arch's packaging, anything that avoids that disaster fixes it. You can use ghcup to get a properly configured GHC. |
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| 16:25:37 | <Inst> | davean: someone reverted my edit to wiki, and I'm asking if there are any solutions. I think it's just a feud, and there's no way around it other than, Haskell is going to be finicky for new users who try it via their distro's package manager, and hopefully they end up in IRC, Discord, or Matrix, or simply follow Haskell.org's instructions to use GHCup. |
| 16:27:18 | <davean> | Hum? |
| 16:27:35 | <Inst> | Arch Wiki, rather. |
| 16:27:53 | <Inst> | But w/e, it's more like you get to watch me be naive / silly and just find this problem is still insoluable. |
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| 16:38:10 | <Guest|73> | went for dinner and just came back |
| 16:38:22 | <Guest|73> | I've tried to move the ghcup and cabal away |
| 16:38:30 | <Guest|73> | still getting no directory |
| 16:38:36 | <Guest|73> | so maybe it doesn't exist? |
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| 16:38:57 | <Guest|73> | mv ~/.cabal ~/.cabal-backup |
| 16:38:57 | <Guest|73> | mv: rename /Users/tomaz/.cabal to /Users/tomaz/.cabal-backup/.cabal: No such file or directory |
| 16:39:20 | <Inst> | This is implying that the /.cabal directory doesn't exist |
| 16:39:28 | <Inst> | can you manually locate the /.cabal directory and rename it? |
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| 16:40:26 | <Guest|73> | how would I locate it? |
| 16:40:48 | <tomsmeding> | Guest|73: perhaps you tried that move command twice? |
| 16:40:56 | <tomsmeding> | the first time it should not give any output -- that means it succeeded |
| 16:41:03 | <Guest|73> | ahh |
| 16:41:05 | <Guest|73> | okay |
| 16:41:10 | <Guest|73> | I've moved both then |
| 16:41:23 | <tomsmeding> | the second time, because the destination already exists, it'll try to move the source _into_ that -backup directory, which yields the error you got |
| 16:41:25 | <tomsmeding> | I see |
| 16:41:28 | <Guest|73> | Now should I try and install it again |
| 16:41:35 | <tomsmeding> | try the following first: |
| 16:41:39 | <tomsmeding> | ls ~/.ghcup ~/.cabal |
| 16:41:54 | <tomsmeding> | does that give "no such file or directory" twice? |
| 16:42:30 | <Guest|73> | tomaz@Tommys-MacBook-Air-3 ~ % ls ~/.ghcup ~/.cabal |
| 16:42:30 | <Guest|73> | ls: /Users/tomaz/.cabal: No such file or directory |
| 16:42:31 | <Guest|73> | ls: /Users/tomaz/.ghcup: No such file or directory |
| 16:42:36 | <tomsmeding> | cool |
| 16:42:41 | <tomsmeding> | now retry install |
| 16:43:06 | <Guest|73> | so just plug this in curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org | sh |
| 16:43:22 | <tomsmeding> | looks good |
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| 16:51:29 | <Guest|73> | tom you are a gem |
| 16:51:35 | <Guest|73> | thank you so much |
| 16:51:47 | <tomsmeding> | did it work? |
| 16:51:59 | <Guest|73> | yes it did |
| 16:52:02 | <tomsmeding> | yay |
| 16:52:14 | <tomsmeding> | then you can clean up a bit of disk space and remove ~/.ghcup-backup and ~/.cabal-backup :) |
| 16:52:47 | <tomsmeding> | tip: you can show hidden files in Finder by pressing command + shift + . |
| 16:52:56 | <tomsmeding> | ~ is your home directory |
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| 17:54:24 | <Guest87> | Seems circe is being fickle today so i'm trying the web client... hope this isn't a dupe: I'm building on GHC 8.10 w/ cabal and I'm trying to enable profiling. I added the `-fprof-auto` flag + tried incandations like `cabal run --enable-profiling` but I can't seem to get the .prof file to generate. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? |
| 17:55:17 | <Guest87> | (ah, looks like my internet connection keeps getting reset so my blame is misplaced. guess i'll have to figure that out later) |
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| 17:56:06 | <geekosaur> | you need to turn it on at runtime as well, selecting the profiling mode. https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.6.2/docs/users_guide/profiling.html |
| 17:56:17 | <geekosaur> | `+RTS -p` for basic profiling |
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| 17:58:22 | <davean> | Which also requires RTS ops in a modern GHC - I've forgotten everything about 8.10 though so no idea if it needs it |
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| 17:58:52 | <geekosaur> | iirc it does |
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| 17:59:10 | <geekosaur> | argh |
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| 17:59:39 | <Guest87> | no clue what's up with my connection :( . anyway, I tried `-with-rtsopts=-N` under ghc-options |
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| 18:00:21 | <davean> | Guest87: -N is parrallel, not profiling |
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| 18:00:56 | <geekosaur> | -rtsopts, and you probably want to use +RTS instead of -with-rtsopts so you can select time vs. heap profiling etc. |
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| 18:04:43 | <geekosaur> | guess they're gone for good this time |
| 18:05:10 | <davean> | Yah I was going to direct them to the step by step directions in the GHC manual ... |
| 18:05:18 | <davean> | I don't know why they didn't just look at that |
| 18:05:33 | <haskellbridge> | <cole-k> had to look for my haskell bridge so that i wasn't phasing in and out of existence. I meant `-p`, I copied the wrong part of my cabal file. |
| 18:05:42 | <davean> | though 8.10 is old enough its giving a bit outdated cabal directions |
| 18:06:07 | <davean> | cole-k, are you Guest87? |
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| 18:06:14 | <davean> | This is all well detailed in the GHC manual Guest87. https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/8.10.1/docs/html/users_guide/profiling.html#profiling is the step-by-step directions and will just load, when your connection resets again you'll still have it up. |
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| 18:06:41 | <davean> | We're just repeating it to you basicly, other than the cabal directions being a touch old fashioned |
| 18:06:47 | <EvanR> | Guest87 hologram |
| 18:07:01 | <haskellbridge> | <cole-k> davean: Yes. Thanks for the link. I was getting confused at going from the ghc flags to the cabal flags. |
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| 18:08:22 | <davean> | cole-k: Yah, I think the GHC manual spells it out well myself but if anything is confusing, ask! |
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| 18:10:20 | <haskellbridge> | <cole-k> davean: got it. I merged the `./Main +RTS -p` and build lines in my head. I see now that it's an additional flag in the executable itself. RTFM indeed. |
| 18:12:00 | <monochrom> | I wish people rtfm more too. But one day I realized that there is a selection bias. Those who rtfm wouldn't ask in the first place. |
| 18:12:58 | <monochrom> | Those who ask have long already decided not to rtfm. |
| 18:13:17 | <davean> | monochrom: I recently told some who wanted to understand how I managed to do stuff in Haskell compitently of certain types, and told them I read the Haskell report and the GHC manual and their response was that was a completely untenable solution. |
| 18:13:38 | <davean> | I was like "welp ... then what could be?" |
| 18:13:53 | <geekosaur> | srsly? |
| 18:13:54 | <monochrom> | Heh. My sentiment is the opposite. Relying on hearsay is untentable for me. |
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| 18:14:18 | <davean> | geekosaur: srsly |
| 18:14:43 | <monochrom> | (Well OK until it gets really tough, e.g., systemd, I just googled for hearsay. :) ) |
| 18:14:44 | <haskellbridge> | <cole-k> hey now fellas, we all can't be geniuses here. I spent fifteen minutes reading the manual wrong :( |
| 18:15:12 | <davean> | cole-k thats ok! |
| 18:15:15 | <davean> | It happens |
| 18:15:55 | <EvanR> | was holding the manual upside down |
| 18:16:58 | <EvanR> | coming from a 90s windows environment where helpfiles had nothing of value in them, and wondering how the heck anyone knew how to program windows, I am amazed any time a manual exists |
| 18:17:27 | <davean> | EvanR: Oh, uh, in the 90s I moved to POSIX because man did include useful info |
| 18:18:00 | <monochrom> | Economically, I am not surprised that more people just ask. There are enough answerers who are easily nerd-sniped, or even better/worse, beg to help askers in exchange for the "you are so helpful" trophy. |
| 18:19:03 | <davean> | monochrom: Eh, but you don't know all the questions to ask, thats why a good education is critical/` |
| 18:19:57 | <EvanR> | yeah a badly formed question can pass through IRC without interacting |
| 18:20:13 | <davean> | And that assumes you ask the question in the first place |
| 18:20:20 | <monochrom> | Um that's not what I saw in this channel :) |
| 18:20:45 | <davean> | It takes a lot of education to avoid the "you don't know what you don't know" problem |
| 18:20:53 | <monochrom> | Badly formed questions in here always start long and multiply-branching conversations. |
| 18:21:19 | <monochrom> | which is why I said "easily nerd-sniped, or even better/worse, beg to help askers in exchange for the "you are so helpful" trophy" |
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| 18:22:30 | <Lears> | There's a second level of selection bias here, since good questions can usually be answered with a single response, whereas any bad question that isn't ignored is doomed to linger. |
| 18:22:42 | <monochrom> | I discovered that right here. I didn't even know that it could be possible when I was in efnet #math where the regulars stood firm with the Socratic method. |
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| 18:24:31 | <monochrom> | (Don't get me wrong, some of the #math regulars were like "you need to think" or even "you just need to think" which was not good either.) |
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| 18:26:12 | <monochrom> | Lears, but there are no ignored bad questions ever in this channell. |
| 18:27:49 | <monochrom> | (You can test that by changing you nick so we don't recognize you, hell call yourself newbie31415 or something, and ask "Hi I need help with monads" >:) ) |
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| 18:28:05 | <Lears> | It does happen sometimes, though I agree it's far too rare. |
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| 18:46:35 | <davean> | monochrom: Oh, I have bad questions - is that the procedure? |
| 18:47:58 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 19:16:06 | <mauke> | fortunately "I need help" is not a question |
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| 19:21:50 | <davean> | mauke: but "what should I do?" is. |
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