Logs on 2023-10-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:05:15 | <dibblego> | does this exist somewhere? blah :: Comonad w => (w a -> b) -> w a -> w (a, b); blah f = extend (\t -> (extract t, f t)) |
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| 00:15:45 | <probie> | :t \f t -> fmap (,f t) t |
| 00:15:46 | <lambdabot> | Functor f => (f t1 -> t2) -> f t1 -> f (t1, t2) |
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| 00:29:05 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 05:33:30 | <haskellbridge> | <bozeman_5-0> https://discord.com/invite/Eug7txK6WV |
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| 07:52:47 | <kuribas`> | https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-shocking-secret-about-static-types-514d39bf30a3 |
| 07:53:08 | <kuribas`> | Supposedly clojure: 8.29% bug density, and haskell 29.72%... |
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| 07:54:09 | <kuribas`> | My experience with clojure is that I can write thousands of lines of haskell code with only a few "bugs", and not even a few lines of clojure code without. |
| 07:54:14 | <kuribas`> | I'd say this is complete BS. |
| 07:54:23 | <kuribas`> | Or I am just terrible at clojure :) |
| 07:54:56 | <kuribas`> | But we also have a javascript frontend done by an external team which has been dragging on an has tons of bugs. |
| 07:56:18 | <[exa]> | kuribas`: what is this "bug density" metric? #issues slashed by #LoC ? |
| 07:57:25 | <kuribas`> | I suppose so. |
| 07:57:26 | <[exa]> | anyway yeah the article is nonsense |
| 07:58:13 | <[exa]> | (also identified by use of boldface instead of emph) |
| 07:58:51 | <kuribas`> | I wonder about these advocates, are they just too lazy to learn types? |
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| 07:59:23 | <mankyKitty> | As someone that has taught haskell, it's not about laziness, it's often about how people have been exposed to type systems in the past |
| 07:59:53 | <kuribas`> | yeah, one of my colleages has a trauma of types due to scala :-0 |
| 08:00:00 | <kuribas`> | two of them actually. |
| 08:00:02 | <mankyKitty> | if you're only exposure is "the compiler won't let me pass an Int because the type says String" ... then you're not going to see a lot of value |
| 08:00:10 | <mankyKitty> | or scala yeah |
| 08:01:04 | <kuribas`> | Typed holes are one of my favorite type system features. |
| 08:01:16 | <mankyKitty> | But also the thinking that "it only improves things a little sometimes and is therefore a complete and utter waste of time" seems a little ... disigenuous |
| 08:01:17 | <kuribas`> | But even just having the squiggly lines while I code or indispensable for me. |
| 08:01:29 | <probie> | For a rather useless data point, I'd say that the number of bugs remaining once all my tests are passing doesn't differ much between static and dynamic typing |
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| 08:01:53 | <mankyKitty> | or thinking that it's purely about helping code linters, there's a fundamental misunderstanding buried in there that hinders a greater understanding of what's on offer |
| 08:02:09 | <probie> | The process of getting to "all tests passing" is not the same however |
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| 08:02:21 | <kuribas`> | I tried linters in clojure, and I found them very lacking. |
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| 08:02:56 | <kuribas`> | For me it's not about code correctness,but about the ability to understand and reason about code. |
| 08:03:20 | <mankyKitty> | ehhh, it's a slanted article meant to push a specific point and then upsell their courses.. If the person shows up we should be helpful |
| 08:03:33 | <mankyKitty> | but apart from that, there's others things to do |
| 08:03:54 | <int-e> | . o O ( "what does really reduce bug density"... boilerplate! we need more boilerplate! hundreds of lines with little bug potential ) |
| 08:05:05 | <kuribas`> | For me, the only good boilerplate is the one that is checked with types, so I don't have to worry about it. |
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| 08:07:32 | <dibblego> | I write clojure every day for the last 6 months. 100% of our bugs that I have so far encountered would not have existed in Haskell. |
| 08:07:51 | <mankyKitty> | we're also hella biased in here, so as much as we're convinced, our `evidence` is still anecdotal ;) *he says poking the bear* |
| 08:08:04 | <kuribas`> | I have been doing some Python programming with dataframes, and I think being able to track columns and units would be a great advantage (using phantom/dependent types). |
| 08:08:23 | <kuribas`> | mankyKitty: we *are* biased, but I think haskell challenges lie elsewhere. |
| 08:08:40 | <probie> | dibblego: how many of them are a sneaky `nil` slipping in? |
| 08:08:50 | <dibblego> | the conclusion from that chart is: "python programmers admit their mistakes more often than clojure" |
| 08:08:58 | <dibblego> | probie: about 40-60% |
| 08:09:01 | <dibblego> | at a guess |
| 08:09:08 | <mankyKitty> | kuribas`: exactly. :) |
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| 08:14:04 | <kuribas`> | There real reason I get from clojure programmers, is that they find learning the types distracting, and they want an easy solution so they can think about the business logic instead. |
| 08:14:39 | <kuribas`> | It's a fair tradeoff, but not one it is often communicated honestly. |
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| 13:09:59 | <elbear> | hello. where can I find an up-to-date AST of Haskell? |
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| 13:11:42 | <lortabac> | @hackage ghc -- elbear |
| 13:11:42 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc -- elbear |
| 13:13:01 | <lortabac> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.6.3/docs/Language-Haskell-Syntax.html |
| 13:16:25 | <elbear> | lortabac: awesome. thank you! |
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| 13:21:27 | <tomsmeding> | elbear: see also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/template-haskell-2.18.0.0/docs/Language-Haskell-TH-Syntax.html which is the thing you can use as a user from TemplateHaskell |
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| 13:33:44 | <elbear> | tomsmeding: thanks. this might be useful |
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| 18:54:14 | <tomsmeding> | mankyKitty: re "can't pass Int because the type says String" not being very valuable: without a type system catching that, honestly what did you expect would happen? :p |
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| 18:56:35 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: PHP |
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| 18:57:37 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage acme-php |
| 18:57:37 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-php |
| 18:58:11 | <loonycyborg> | you're forced to work with types no matter what, only tradeoff is compile-time vs runtime |
| 18:59:27 | <loonycyborg> | even if type isn't something programmer specifies the programming language still have to make sense of data it gets somehow.. |
| 18:59:43 | <[exa]> | tomsmeding: I'm still amazed how much 2000's can fit into the acme-php homepage |
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| 19:10:53 | cpressey88 | is now known as cpressey |
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| 19:13:19 | <Guest61> | [Hi, in C# or OOP, for pubsub pattern, I can have event in a class, and other classes can subscribe to that event by adding many handlers to that events, e.g. adding a delegate to a click event in winform. |
| 19:13:20 | <Guest61> | Could anyone show me how I could approach this pub-sub problem in functional programming, and haskell, please? |
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| 19:19:00 | <EvanR> | oof |
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| 19:21:43 | <probie> | Guest61: It really depends on what problem you're trying to solve. That said, if you really need to do something like this, I'd recommend using a `TChan`. Your event publisher creates a broadcast `TChan`, and to subscribe, clients call `dupTChan` |
| 19:21:52 | <EvanR> | they left |
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| 19:23:01 | <probie> | I know, but I've gone to the effort of typing, so I'm going to hit enter |
| 19:23:23 | <probie> | maybe they'll come back and look at the logs |
| 19:23:32 | <monochrom> | "sunk cost policy" :) |
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| 19:55:23 | <Reyaina> | Courtney Rickett Gets Gangbanged by the Braves - The Shitty Clarinet Courtney Rickett takes ecstasy suppositories with Edna Skilton and ends up gangbanged by the Atlanta Braves and consensually sodomized by her trusty clarinet. https://justpaste.it/Courtney_Rickett_Gangbanged |
| 19:55:39 | × | hugo quits (znc@verdigris.lysator.liu.se) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 19:56:40 | <mauke> | @where ops |
| 19:56:40 | <lambdabot> | byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski |
| 19:58:10 | ChanServ | sets mode +o Cale |
| 19:58:18 | Cale | sets mode +b *!*@bras-base-otwaon230qw-grc-30-174-88-134-146.dsl.bell.ca |
| 19:58:18 | Reyaina | is kicked by Cale (Reyaina) |
| 19:58:29 | Cale | sets mode -o Cale |
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| 20:01:10 | ChanServ | sets mode +o litharge |
| 20:01:10 | litharge | sets mode -bo *!*@bras-base-otwaon230qw-grc-30-174-88-134-146.dsl.bell.ca litharge |
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| 20:14:52 | <EvanR> | wut, your ban was overruled? |
| 20:15:26 | <Franciman> | hi, is there any public statistics about haskell adoption in industry and its trends? |
| 20:19:31 | × | Feuermagier quits (~Feuermagi@user/feuermagier) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 20:20:22 | <geekosaur> | EvanR, litharge implements ban timeouts. It will have asked Cale first for a timeout (or a non-timeout response making it permanent) |
| 20:20:44 | <geekosaur> | monochrom and I use it |
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| 20:21:38 | <EvanR> | handy |
| 20:22:01 | <EvanR> | apparently it was not used in #space just now on that user |
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| 20:22:29 | <geekosaur> | right, it has to be invited into a channel |
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| 20:27:47 | <Cale> | geekosaur: I asked for 1month |
| 20:28:11 | <Cale> | and it said "ack." and then probably interpreted it as 1 minute |
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| 20:28:59 | <geekosaur> | that sounds about right, I don't think it understands anything longer than days |
| 20:29:10 | <geekosaur> | at least I recall having to use days for a 2-week ban |
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| 22:14:54 | × | migas quits (~migas@astra4961.startdedicated.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 22:14:54 | migas5 | is now known as migas |
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| 22:22:17 | × | stites quits (~stites@2607:fb91:dca:1fe3:e61a:30b8:bd10:dac3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 23:21:50 | × | alphacentauri quits (alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri) (Quit: WeeChat 4.0.5) |
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| 23:29:06 | × | hyiltiz quits (~hyiltiz@2620:149:13d1::4) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 23:58:22 | × | stites quits (~stites@2607:fb91:dca:1fe3:e61a:30b8:bd10:dac3) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-03.